Invisible To Unmissable: How to Build Your Visibility

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:03)

How of women? Who comes to mind?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (00:06)

Nina Simone.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:08)

Just like that.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (00:09)

Just like that, just thought of it now. I don’t know, we were Well, we were thinking about you know, we were talking off camera about all all the formative experiences we have that make us the strong women we are. And none of those experiences are like, that was such a great experience and it made me so strong. Right right? And if you think about her, she there’s there must have been myriad of educated white women in the same era who had a musical education.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:12)

I love Nina Simone.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (00:38)

Right. But you have this black woman who’s not allowed to go into a conservatorium because she’s black. So she takes up a job working in brothels. I can’t imagine how safe that would be for a woman in that era at her age and her skin colour. And she went on to break open for so many musicians, the industry like covering people like Bob Dylan. And she is one of the most recognizable voices on the planet.

 

And she plays her own instruments, by the way. So she’s not sitting around waiting for someone to bring her a band. Right, she plays piano and sings. So completely authentic, recognizable voice.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:21)

Fabulous voice.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (01:22)

Yeah. If you wanna think about power, that’s what power sounds like. Is that woman’s voice?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:27)

Well there’s the promo for Power Women Done, and the episode’s over. So

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (01:31)

Good, great. Okay, move the car. ⁓ Time for one.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:48)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the POWER OF WOMEN Podcast, where we celebrate the strength, resilience, and achievements of women from all walks of life. And whilst most podcasts tell you what’s possible, these women will share with you what it took them to get there. It’s a place where women supporting women isn’t just a sentiment, it’s a decision we make every single day.

 

I’m back with Emmanuella Grace. Welcome back to the studio.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (02:19)

Didn’t we eat? ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:23)

Voice and communication expert, former performer and founder of Find Your Voice. She has performed on international stages, including Royal Albert Hall, The Barbican, and Sydney Opera House. In our last conversation when we were together, we went deeply into why women silence themselves and what it takes to reclaim their voice. Today we’re going further into visibility.

 

what it means to be truly seen and why so many high achieving women, at the height of everything they’ve built, find themselves wondering why it feels so hollow. Emmanuella Grace, welcome back to the POWER OF WOMEN Podcast.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (03:06)

Thank you. I’m so excited for this conversation.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:09)

You’ve mentioned it yourself, the irony of your position. You coach people to find their voice, step into their visibility, and yet you know what it’s like to be on stage when everything is falling apart around you. Tell me about that time at Royal Albert Hall, the night the guitar my god. Yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (03:28)

⁓

 

God. Do you know what I n I hadn’t thought about that in years and then it came up ⁓ just before our conversation. And I just you have these Yeah, you have these moments where you go, that’s where every you know these moments where everything changes. And like I said, sometimes the most formative moments aren’t the good ones. So

 

As a deeply insecure teenager who wanted to be a singer, because you know there’s something about athletes and and musicians where our careers f at a professional level with high scrutiny start so much sooner than most people. And the amount of training and effort, yeah, that goes into being at that level where I’m professional at sixteen. Most people don’t start their professional career for a decade later where they’ve had some life experience and

 

Well and and you’ve learned a few life skills, right? So you’re you’re so affected by other people’s perspective of you and you’re so affected by other people’s perception of you. You know, very few sixteen year olds know themselves. So you’re really buffeted about and informed in some ways by how people reflect yourself back at you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:40)

You

 

And it explains why the wheels fall off when that structure’s taken away. Absolutely. Like for example, swimmers.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (04:46)

Right. And we’ll we’ll get into that in a little while later because whose agenda are you serving ultimately? And that’s something that I think a lot of singers maybe or athletes have that collision in their th twenties to thirties. But for career women it’s happening in their fifties because now they’ve been on that journey of self discovery. But Royal Albert Hall. I’d gotten to a point where I would say that that’s a pretty high apex of a career, you know.

 

I have this tendency to kind of go, there’s a goal, that’s a thing I want to do. And then the logic of it doesn’t really weigh in in that moment. I just go, Yeah, that’s a thing I can shoot for. And then I just make my way to it. And I I’m very flexible on the route. But ultimately I go, what I’d like to sing in Royal Albert Hall. And then I get that. And and how I get there’s, you know, this mirandering meandering? Mirandering? Meandering. Meandering journey.

 

So I get to Royal Albert Hall, I’m doing a season there with this ensemble, and I’m sitting in the pit and I’m having this thought, I think I’ve proven my point. ‘Cause what I’ve done is I’d started coaching on the side. I’d had ⁓ I’d been performing my own music. I’d started to perform my own music and I’d had an American Idol finalist approach me and she’d said, well you teach me how to do what you do And I was like, no, I’m not a singing teacher. She No, I’ve got a singing teacher. I need someone to teach me what you do in terms of your presence on stage.

 

And so I’d started coaching her and that really changed the way I perceived what my possibilities were in the world because I thought you could be a singing teacher or a singer and that was it. If you if it that didn’t work, you went and worked at Virgin Music. Right. But but she introduced me to her Yeah. So she introduced me to her voice coach in New York, who was working with some of still does work with some of the biggest names in the business. And Norma took me under her wing and taught me what it was to be a coach, which is a very American thing at the time. And

 

I just was loving it. And I was starting to work with professional footballers and weightlifters and bankers and doctors because I didn’t realise that I think I had started to have this realisation that you could teach voice to anyone and stage presence to anyone. So back we’re back on in the pit in Albert Hall. And you’re you’re doing your you’re doing your thing. We were doing Stravinsky’s Ride of Spring mashed up with We Will Rock You.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:51)

Yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (07:05)

Which is like pretty full on. And then my friend’s doing this big rock solo and he’s up on the top there. And the stage doors are on this kind of air, air suction release thing to make the stage soundproof. And as he’s gone off stage and out the door, his fingers got f stuck in the door. And some of us realize what’s going on because the doors only open one way. There’s people having to run, figure out what’s going on and run all the way around the stage, around the back.

 

To get the door open and get him out. Meanwhile, we have to keep singing. Because in venues that size, if you stop, the audience will panic and you can end up with a swarm. So you you have to keep going. And and we’ve seen some really horrific situations in in concerts where audiences have just surged exactly towards whatever it is the singer’s putting the attention on. So as the performers, you have to be very conscious that they you’re there to curate an experience for your audience.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:41)

Wow.

 

Absurd.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (08:01)

And so the show must go on. It’s not just an idea of like, ⁓ you know, on with the show. It’s it’s really something where you must keep going because you have responsibility to some extent of your audience’s experience. And if that experience is to draw their attention to something that’s happening that’s not great, it’s gonna create a pretty distressing situation. So meanwhile, we find out later that he’s gone to hospital, he’s lost his finger. And I just thought

 

You know, I’ve I’ve proven my point and I realize that this isn’t actually what I want to be doing. I’m gonna I I’m loving the coaching and I think I’m gonna do that. And I wasn’t traumatized by the situation. He went on to become a very lovely guitar teacher, and and it was a very upsetting thing for a while, but I think it was just the confluence of realizing I’ve proven what I needed to prove to myself. I’m done proving myself to other people, and also it being in such an extreme environment.

 

really kind of made that a formative memory for me where I look at that moment and go, That’s where it changed. So

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:57)

You say you’ve you’ve you’ve done that, but is is or was the stage your happy place?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (09:04)

It still is. You know, I think you’ve got to remember that there’s so much preparation that goes into those moments. I think you know, we watch these shows where Lady Gargar meets a guy in a ⁓ parking lot and suddenly she’s a world star and it’s really amazing for her and that’s great. That’s not how it is. Okay. There you know, you’ve heard the phrase it takes ten nights to make t ten years to make an overnight sensation.

 

There is so much practice and so much rehearsal and so much risk that goes into becoming a professional athlete or singer in the first place. And I was trained by by by sport psychologists that trained Olympic athletes. So I kind of can see that they are parallel training. ⁓ and so

 

And and so many of us don’t ever make it in Bunny Ears, you know, make it for those of you watching at home. but it’s it’s something where when it does come together and you’re finally on the stage and you and your band or you and your orchestra or you and your ensemble have rehearsed, there’s so much trust and so much cohesion and so much that’s gone into rehearsing that skill set that there is a state of flow that you you take with you on there and the performances where you

 

don’t have the time to prepare are usually the ones where things ⁓ it’s not as enjoyable. Whereas if you’ve prepared really well and you’re you’re synchronized as a as an ensemble, even when things do go wrong, you tend to handle it better because you know how to flow together and you kind of become a little bit of a hive mind.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (10:38)

Yeah. Well let’s let’s bring this back to a point where our listeners and we’re going to assume not many of them have been on stage at Royal Albert Hall. But visibility is something that they they’re grappling with in in their professional and personal lives at at any given time. So we talked when we were together before about introverts potentially make

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (10:49)

Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:05)

better speakers. And that excitement and and trepidation can feel the s that same physiological response.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (11:13)

Are you talking about Skregs Blunderfried Di? I’m so glad you brought it up. So for those of you watching along at home, Di and I had a call the other day and she said, What’s that written on your wall? And I said, Skregs Blunderfried

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:16)

That’s the

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (11:30)

yeah, great. So, ⁓ some of you are probably curious about my weird accent. I ⁓ I’ve been with my Norwegian husband for twenty, four, twenty-five years, and Norwegian is what we also speak at home and that’s impressive. We we live part time there. I hope that my children will speak it. It’s a really lovely language. And ⁓ in you know, one of the great joys of living in another language sometimes is that our perception is shaped by the languages that we speak.

 

So if you only ever learnt English, then you would only ever know the word terror or joy is polarities. So at one end you have something bad, terror, the other end you have something good, joy, and never the twine shall meet. They are two extremes that are at opposite ends of a spectrum. For Norwegians we have a word Skrexblandfried, which translates as terror blended with joy. So it’s the

 

Intersection of the two coexisting simultaneously. Now, if I describe to you the experience, you’ll know what I mean. Like a first kiss with someone you really like, or a roller coaster. That’s Gregsplandertfried, right? You’re kind of terrified and you’re also loving it. That’s right, but the word that we have that’s the closest to it in English is excitement, but that has a positive connotation.

 

When we can look at terror and joy coexisting, then we can start to normalize the experience of being scared and happy simultaneously. And I would say, even for me now, after decades of performance, I still feel like that every time I get behind a microphone, every time I get on stage. And I think if you’re not, then perhaps you should be thinking about doing something else. You’ve gotten too comfortable. Because I think there’s a magic that comes.

 

With the coexistence of those extremes within one human at a time. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:15)

And my husband, who is also a media professional, will talk about that feeling of trepidation or you talked about earlier the sweaty sweaty palms. That that still happens fifty years on in his career and that’s the piece that propels him over the line to to perform.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (13:34)

It’s sparkly. It makes you sparkly. So when I’m training voices, I say to people, look, practice absolutely all out at sixty percent. Don’t go over sixty percent as your biggest note because you know, you kind of want to when you’re practicing, you start at about 10 to 20 percent when you’re marking your notes. But you know, if you’re going for a big note, sing it 60%, because by the time you’re on stage, the adrenaline and the excitement and also the sound of it will push you. And if you’re hitting it a hundred all the way through, you’re gonna injuries.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:02)

Yeah. Always a marathon every you don’t run a marathon to train for a marathon.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (14:03)

That’s not sustainable. ⁓

 

No, exactly right. So you you always need to leave yourself somewhere to go.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:12)

Yeah. Well let’s get to the crux of today’s discussion, which is whose agenda have you been serving to gain your visibility? Can you reorientate our understanding of why she feels lost despite everything she’s been told to want?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (14:22)

Yeah.

 

It goes back to she the lady that I’m working with, let’s say a woman in her late forties to early fifties, sometimes anything up to sixty, depending on if you took time out to have kids. ⁓ depending on what your career looks like. You know, there’s a lot of women in law, for example, that have a choice at around this point in their career where they have to choose do they go one way or the other. And there’s a lot of ⁓ gravity in one and and there can be a little bit of ⁓ side eye for the other.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:35)

G

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (15:03)

And and so there’s a lot of careers where you have these moments where you’re making a decision, do you make it based on what’s important for you and your values, or are you making it based on what brings you prestige or more money, but might not necessarily align with your true beliefs of what quality of life is or what’s important. So when I work with people, no matter who it is or what context, we always start with what’s important to you. Yeah. Because what I think’s important and what you think’s important is going to be different because we’re all individual.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:28)

Yeah.

 

So this is how we do this honestly, because it it’s uncomfortable when you get to that point of going

 

I don’t know what I value anymore.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (15:43)

And so sometimes you need someone outside of your head to help you get honest about that. And I’m big on honesty and it can be uncomfortable. So hopefully I help people hold the space for that and navigate that. ⁓ but you know, in the voice model that I teach, V is for values. If you don’t know what you represent, how can you ever articulate that out into the world? How can you ever behave in a way that aligns with that? And how can you ultimately curate a life that aligns with your values if you don’t know what they are?

 

You’re ultimately just serving someone else’s agenda.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:15)

So and I’m I’m hope I’m not putting words into your mouth, but you work with leaders who I think at times you’d say are technically articulate emotionally new.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (16:27)

I’d say that’s absolutely spot on.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:30)

Not a lot of people might describe it. They might not be just like not mine.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (16:33)

They they might not even think they are and then they might the the really the people that get the most shaken is when they think they’re expressing themselves really well and then they get the feedback. yeah, no it’s not land.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:42)

Yeah.

 

How do you begin to find what that thing is?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (16:49)

What’s important to them? You know, let’s if I tell you, listen, your message isn’t landing, go fix it, or else, are you gonna Yeah, no, you’re not gonna be like, Yes, sure. I’d love to. No, no, no. Okay, so what we need to do is go, well, do you even want to change the way you’re delivering a message? You know, if you don’t want to, that’s fine. But if you if you can identify something within you

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:56)

Wasn’t working.

 

Yeah right.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (17:13)

that’s important that’s going to motivate you to want to learn this new skill set and test it and risk failure and develop it and invest the energy and time and sometimes money into developing that skill set. Let’s start there. Let’s find a reason for you to be motivated. So there’s there’s a model that I worked on with my a friend of mine who’s a expert in peak performance for teams and I’m peak performance for individuals. So sometimes we put our heads together, we nut things out, and we came up with a model, the three R’s of motivation.

 

So people used to think that motivation was actually finite, which is why they would teach you, okay, put on your jogging shoes in the morning and do your exercise, because by the end of the day you have no energy. But what the new research is showing us is that actually motivation is a self-perpetuating cycle. And for that to work, you need three things, your three R’s. You need a reason, you need the resources, and you need the reward. So I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you want to get

 

Fit. Why do you want to get fit? Your reason is that you want to get a girlfriend. I’m gonna say it from the perspective of a boy. Okay? Yep. Just realize that. Okay, so you want to get a girlfriend and you think that getting fit will help you, it’ll help you build your confidence, you’ll have more testosterone. Excellent. So you have the reason. The resource is the money to pay for the gym or the time to go. And the reward is a couple of weeks in, you’ve lost a few kilos. And that cutie over by the green smoothie bar said hello. Okay.

 

And then she gets your number and then you go on some dates and then suddenly all you want to do is Netflix and chill. Reason’s gone. So now the reason’s gone. Resources are still there. You still have the time. You still have the money for the gym. The reward would still be there if you kept going. You’d still be getting fitter. But suddenly now all you want to do is sit on the couch and hang out with her. Okay, so now you’re gonna get married. reason’s back. But now you’ve got all the wedding planning. You don’t have the resources anymore, you don’t have the time. Still got

 

You still got the reward, you still look good. Yeah, but think about it, if you remove any one of them, your motivation falls over. So my HR people love this because the first thing I say to them is look, if you’re dealing with someone who until recently was a really good performer in the organization and suddenly they’re looking wobbly, which one of those three R’s has fallen over? Right? Because we we communicate.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:12)

Yeah.

 

What what fellow white

 

Yeah. Take hole.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (19:36)

What’s going on with us in different ways. People think of communication as the words, the sounds that’s coming out of your mouth, but it’s more than that. Okay? You can communicate a whole lot with a look.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:47)

I can do it with body

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (19:49)

Right. And this is where I’ve been thinking a lot lately about passive aggression. Because

 

No. No, I think that was assertiveness. And there’s a big difference. Okay, so what you did was own that. You wanted something to stop and you said stop. And you had a physical gesture, a voice tone, eye contact, and word that all aligned. That’s why it was powerful. All the points of communication were in alignment. There was no ambiguity. Here’s where passive aggression’s interesting. It’s still aggression, but it’s not you owning your voice.

 

It’s not you owning that decision. And so ultimately you might achieve what it is you want to achieve, but you’re not going to feel good about yourself because on some level it’s dishonest. And that creates what we call cognitive dissonance, which is that uncomfortable feeling in your mind and body when two ideas are conflicting.

 

You with me? Right. So that’s where I think this emergence of people talking about microaggressions and passive aggression is a problem in the workplace because what it’s doing is encouraging a lack of honesty, which is what we need for people to really own their voice and to feel empowered.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:40)

And we do.

 

Mm, I get it. And and that microaggression aspect is so destructive to culture. So Yeah. And we’ve all experienced it.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (21:08)

And I’ve been open about saying you look, I think sometimes it’s okay to in indulge a little bit of revenge fantasy, but you’re not going to do it, right? The revenge fantasy is the teenager or the child. But ultimately we want the owner we want the grown up But we want the grown up driving the bus. You remember I’ve said to you before that high executive function leads to high executive presence. Right?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:22)

No son grown up.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (21:33)

High executive function is the grown-up driving the bus. It’s the ability to juggle multiple ideas that can be true. It’s the ability to pivot. It’s the ability to think creatively, you know? And I think that passive aggression or aggression in the workplace, or even not speaking up, shows up when we feel like we don’t have any options. Whereas high executive function enables us to see that there’s always multiple routes we can take.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:57)

Yeah. Get it. So tell me the difference between performing confidence and actually embodying it.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (22:04)

I I think this is we’re onto something, right? When you say stop and you raise your hand, you look me in the eye, and it’s with absolute clarity and no hesitation, everything in you is aligning. Performative finding of your voice means that on some level something’s out of alignment. Now it might all look good on the surface, but my mirror neurons are gonna pick up with what’s happening in your body, and I will sense a fake. I’ll sense something’s off.

 

Right? I might not be able to tell you what it is. Have you ever had an interaction with someone and everything looks really good but there’s a part of you that walks away with the ick?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:44)

Some

 

things not right.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (22:46)

Rust that. That

 

is because we can only take in if you think about our consciousness, it’s they often use the idea of the iceberg. Like we really are only ever taking in the very tip of the iceberg, but our subconscious and our peripheral vision and all the senses in our bodies that are like taking in things like pheromones, they’re picking up on a whole bunch of other things, but it’s below the conscious.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:09)

It’s a bit like and my husband tells a story and and then and the couple will renate will remain nameless. But the first time I met them and it was ⁓ for all intents and purposes, looked like a harmonious relationship but on the drive home I said to George, that marriage is over. He said, You’re kidding. They’re a they’re you know, they’ve been together a long time, they’re this, they’re that and I went nah it’s all got just so

 

Feel it below the surface and and and within six months that ended up being the case and and nobody would have seen that coming.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (23:47)

Have you heard of micro expressions?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:50)

I’m hearing about it now.

 

So ⁓

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (23:57)

Just want to ask, because maybe you know something I don’t, and you can tell me something. But okay, so micro expressions are these tiny little expressions that happen, you know, in a fraction of a second. And my consciousness looking at your face might not pick it up. But your subconscious will register it. And get this, it’s why I haven’t had any injectables or Botox. No shade on those beautiful.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:22)

There’s a billy

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (24:24)

There you go. So no shade on the ladies who’ve done it, but there’s research coming out that’s showing that the the work that we’re having done on our faces are impeding our ability to read others. Yeah. Because the system works like this. You will have a but the mirror neurons in my body will replicate what that expression on your face feels like, and my brain will interpret what that feels like now. If

 

My face can’t replicate that expression. My brain can’t read what it is. I’m losing my ability to pick up on those cues.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:00)

There’s so f so many places I could go with this conversation, but I’m gonna park it it’s okay.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (25:06)

But on this fascinating on the subject of visibility, when you’re a young professional musician in training, I had a piano teacher stick a mirror in front of my face when I’m practicing because you’ve got to learn to manage yourself on stage. Even if you’re feeling impassioned because this Mozart’s amazing could really put your audience off by not managing your facial expressions properly.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:22)

You

 

Yeah. I can understand that. It’s a bit like watching watching a recording, but really, it’s the same thing. You need to know what what you’re doing and you need to see it to improve. So I get that. So let’s put ourselves in the audience now. What what to your point about that? What is happening in the nervous system of a listener when a speaker is being genuine versus when they’re performing? So

 

Let’s let’s assume they’re not Botoxed, we

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (26:00)

Look at no shade, right? I I will thoroughly admit that I often oscillate backwards and forwards on that, but I I do enjoy the feeling of connection I have with people and I’d never want to impede that. Yeah. Because I’m notoriously real. Some people call me spicy. I just keeping it real. okay, let’s put ourselves in the audience. What’s happening? You can feel when another person’s nervous.

 

Right. Now let’s say you can feel that someone’s nervous and you’re sitting in the audience and you came there

 

Wanting some escapism. Do you want the ballet dancers on the stage that are dancing for you on your lovely, lovely one night out away from the kids? You’ve had a little champagne, you’re wearing a lovely dress. Do you want them to make you feel the pain they feel in their messed up feet with their toenails that are falling off and the hours of bleeding and terrifying, overwhelming pain and risk of having broken a back? No.

 

You want it to look effortless. And so that and they have to get to a point where that effortlessness feels real for them on stage to be able to transport their audience there. Right? Because if they are nervous, if they are scared, we will feel it. And that’s the work of a professional performer is doing the practice until you can get past the nerves, you can get past the discomfort, and now you’re thinking about a performance that’s a gift for your audience.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:07)

analogy thanks for that.

 

Okay, that that’s powerful. Can you share with me an example of that in a professional setting for a leader?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (27:42)

Yeah. If you’re going to give a talk, you need to practice. You can’t just have your speech writer do it and you go over it with your voice coach once and then you think because all the words are in the right place it’s gonna sound great. No, you have to do the emotional work first. Yeah. You have to know what do you want from this speech? Who are you trying to connect with? What’s in it for them?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:54)

Because you don’t know and I suppose.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (28:05)

What’s in it for them?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:07)

Kick the bucket, if you’re wondering what that is.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (28:10)

The the bucket of water. The bucket. When I said I needed to be hydrated. Right. So so you can’t well, you have to manage your expectations, right? Work goes into poor performing at that level. When you see someone get up and give a good talk, it’s not because they’re a natural. Yeah. If they’re more extroverted, maybe they’ve been practicing it in a more informal or passive way, but ultimately they’ve done

 

that type of performance before. It’s not new to them.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:41)

Yeah. Excellent. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and I’m talking with Emmanuella Grace about building our visibility. And coming up, we’re gonna go deeper on performative behaviour.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. This is gonna sound like relationships and and it kind of is and it kind of isn’t, but you have broken up with clients, which says everything about the integrity of the work that you do. When did you know in in

 

And reflection looking back when it’s time to walk away. And what had the coaching become that made it impossible to stay?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (29:34)

When I knew was when on the surface everything looked good and I was getting paid really well and there were really impressive clients, but every time I walked into that room something in my chest felt itchy or tight or I I don’t know how to describe the sensation, but I have a sensation in my body that I now interpret as cognitive dissonance or as I’m behaving in a way that doesn’t align with my values right now.

 

That’s so cognitive dissonance, you remember I said it’s when two ideas coexist in your head but they’re in conflict. Yep. I have a physical sensation in my upper chest that I associate with that happening in my mind. That happens for me less and less. The more I live in integrity in terms of interrogating what I’m doing and asking, does it align with my values? The less I experience that. But what engaged Huh, it’s

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:28)

Yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (30:31)

Lots of good therapy and calling yourself a nonsense thing, maybe. Yeah. You know, not all of us are in a place where we can call ourselves out on our BS. I’m in a point in my life now where I I’m surrounded by people that love me no matter what. I’m I feel supported. I feel resourced. I feel that I’ve had ⁓ time to reflect on things and heal. And one of the byproducts of that is that I don’t feel like I have to do things the way I used to.

 

Now I can and step back, I can take time to think.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:04)

So have you mastered the art of tapping into both your body and your mind on reflection with what you’ve just shared?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (31:17)

Definitely better at it. You know, as artists, we have to work in a space where we’re unifying those things all the time. But I think for me, it was shifting it off the stage and into my life that was the challenge. ⁓ I I left a record label in a modeling agency, you know, in my early 20s, very early on. There was a big move. And ⁓ that was me kind of starting to own my own artistry and own my own music and own my own voice. But

 

Actually, in the work environment when I started to move into working with more corporate spaces, I think I didn’t feel as confident because I’d come from the world of the arts and I didn’t really feel like I yet knew my place. I was brought into a corporate environment by people that could see the value of what I did and they believed in me. But me getting to a point where I believed in me and could see the value of what I brought into the workplace has been a journey in itself. I guess finding my voice all over again, but in a different context. And so

 

when you’ve got these really impressive people that are in charge of lots of monies and lots of people and lots of things and they are sitting in the room talking about whatever their professional challenges are, and you’re going through the exercises and you’re going through the conversations, but week after week you can feel that they’re kind of saying things to try and impress you, but the dial’s not really moving in terms of their performance, feeling any improvement. That’s when you

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:43)

Because they’re the person who wants to be there or because the board’s told them that they’re the CEO and they need to sharpen their a

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (32:49)

So people can end up in that situation for a lot of different reasons. But the ones that are mandated are notoriously challenging. What can often happen if we’re really lucky is they’ll come in and we’ll be able to find something in their values that motivates them to want to rise to the occasion. You know, I’ve had, for example, CIOs and CFOs where a company is about to go public and communication’s not their strong suit and they’re worried about how that’s going to affect

 

Their public persona. And obviously if it goes well, there’s something in it for them. So we work from that point outwards. You know, ⁓ what’s at the heart of this for you? And for some people, it’s even stepping away and handing it to someone else, right? That’s still a win for everyone because it’s saving you problems down the track. ⁓ whereas there’s some people that you know, one of the biggest red flags I see dies when someone tells me it’s fine.

 

Yeah. I’m fine, we’re fine. It’s all fine. No, it’s not.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:58)

Yeah. You know. ⁓

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (34:00)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And so I think there’s something about people that are fine, that stay fine for a really long time. After a while you have to say, Well, if it if it’s fine, I think that maybe I don’t have a lot of value to add here.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:12)

The person who says, Would would I tell a lie? Well you just raised it.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (34:18)

Yeah, I always say to my kids, don’t trust people that tell you to trust them.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:21)

Yeah, trust me, yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (34:23)

No. No thanks. Stop.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:27)

Well it’s so true. So there’s there’s the power of of words of what we’ve we’ve

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (34:34)

Words misaligning with intent, right? Yeah. ‘Cause if someone says, Trust me, what does voice tone voice tone say to you? It says like It’s like I’m trying to manipulate you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:38)

Yeah. Well

 

Yeah, it’s yeah,

 

it’s it’s pushing, it’s pushing at me. Right. It’s like woo.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (34:51)

But you’re particularly astute at picking up on that. I think like I’m one of those people sometimes it can take me a really long time to understand that I d I wouldn’t undermine your

 

I wouldn’t undermine that you might have a good spidey sense for it. You know, I don’t think that’s just age. ⁓ we acquire it through like going back to the start. Some of the most teachable moments are the ones that are the hardest, right? Yeah. But but this is where it becomes important to trust your body. Sometimes your body knows long before your mind does that something’s off. Right? Back to that couple and the micro expressions that you might have seen going between them. The sneer on the lip.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:21)

Yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (35:29)

The refusal to make eye contact, the flinching away from a touch, there might have been all these small indicators that were so small, so microscopic that your conscious brain didn’t pick up on them, but your subconscious did.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:42)

Well let’s go a bit deeper on that because BS comes in all shapes and sizes and it and I think it’s harder to detect when when it’s dressed up in polish and and and corporate presence and and leadership presence. What’s the most sophisticated form of BS you see women and and men for that matter carry into the room? What’s that?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (36:06)

I made a note about this. Now what was it?

 

Hm. It’s when meanness is dressed up as an agenda that’s going to serve the organisation.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:23)

Wow, I’ve been on the receiving end of that. I bet Yep.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (36:26)

you have.

 

Also known as passive aggression. Very hard to challenge that. I found can I teach you a trick? Yes. Say something mean to me.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:32)

Absolutely.

 

Yeah.

 

What’s wrong with you?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (36:45)

I hear you say what’s wrong with you Help me understand.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:52)

You’ve thrown it back at me. Yeah. And I’ve got to take I’ve got to take a back the you’ve you’ve you’ve lobbied me. You’ve lost back in my in my Yeah. That’s powerful. I’m gonna think of another one. Why would you do that?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (37:01)

Completely neutral voice though, right?

 

Clever one, right? Yeah, let’s do it.

 

I hear you say why would you do that? Help me understand the question.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:18)

You’ve completely thrown water on it. So it’s how you diffuse an argument.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (37:24)

Yeah, just so okay, do you wanna hear something interesting? Yep. ⁓ I when I was studying psychology, there’s a whole subject you do on attachment theory. And I’m terrible at remembering which one’s which. Okay, so don’t don’t ride with me on that component of the journey. But there’s basically types of there’s one type of attachment where it’s good and you’ve got a healthy attachment with your parent, and then there’s a whole bunch of other attachments that are like unstable and volatile and whatever.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:35)

Yes.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (37:49)

And the child hasn’t developed a good attachment to their parent. Here’s the research that blew my mind that I will never forget, even if I can’t remember the technical words. In the context of bullying, kids with secure attachment don’t engage, they walk away, so they don’t get bullied.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:06)

Yeah.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (38:07)

The kids

 

that end up in a bullying dynamic, either as the bully or the bullied, it’s a sympathetic relationship where there’s there’s balance. One person is really desperate for approval and to feel safe, and one person needs to peel feel power over to feel safe. And so you end up with this symbiotic relationship of bully and bullied. Whereas children who don’t engage, they just walk away, they don’t get bullied.

 

Because there’s nothing there, there’s no tension in the dynamic.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:37)

I just describe my childhood and and and I tell the story of where I was bullied and I and I made a conscious decision to overcome it. But at the same time made a conscious decision not to become a bully to do that. And that’s exactly what I did, but I didn’t know what I was doing at the time, it just worked.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (38:56)

Yeah, and that’s what that is in the workplace, right? Is that look and there are gonna be times when it’s just not worth the fight and life’s unfair. And that’s what I explain to my girls all the time. Sometimes life is unfair. So if you go into it with the bias that things are going to be fair, I’m sorry, darling, that’s not how it is. But what you can do is increase the probability of you being in environments where you will be treated fairly by having better boundaries, choosing better people to hang out with.

 

And being more assertive in terms of setting the expectations of how people can treat you and ex what they can expect from you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:30)

And I’ve always said you can’t argue with the person in the room who won’t argue back and that’s the person who walks away. It’s the same thing. So you can completely dilute the the emotion and ⁓ and flatten the

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (39:43)

You s you do you do see it a lot though, this kind of passive aggression or cruelty or meanness dressed up as corporate speak.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:49)

Absolutely. Well, my last question for you today, before we get into a little bit of rapid fire, but I want you to speak directly to the woman who’s listened to both of our episodes together. So our initial one. ⁓ she recognised herself in self silencing because she couldn’t find a voice. Yeah. And in this one in invisibility. What do you want her to know?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (40:15)

Finding your voice and developing confidence in your voice is something you can do, but it does take work and it’s not the kind of work that can be outsourced. So enlisting support resources, if you can’t afford a coach, then listen to books, listen to podcasts, talk to friends that believe in you. you know, y you do need support on that journey. And it will be work, but it’s work that’s worth doing because the reward

 

will always be greater than the effort you have to put in, I believe.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:50)

So my take from that is investing in yourself is not something to be underestimated.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (40:59)

Yes, and the cavalry’s not coming to save you. You have to do it for yourself. You know? ⁓ that’s that’s something that I see. you see some women that have all the capability in the world and all the resources and they’re brilliant and they just never seem to cut through. And I think that

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:03)

Yeah.

 

And I’m sure a lot of listeners will will resonate with that.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (41:24)

And

 

it’s a hard truth. Like it’s not an easy thing to say even. And and I guess the privilege of my position is I get to be the person that helps them with with building those internal systems and enlisting the support ⁓ from their friends and their peers and giving them books and podcasts. But there are some people who, for whatever reason, don’t ever get to the point where they back themselves and invest in themselves. And ⁓ if you don’t take the initiative

 

No one’s going to come and give this to you. No one’s going to come to the little girl standing in the front yard hanging out the laundry singing Disney tunes at the top of her voice and whisker away. Yes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:01)

Think you might be talking about your child?

 

And you did something about it and look where you are. Well finally we’re gonna have some rapid fire questions, same rules, honest answers. Mm-hmm. One thing visibility is not.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (42:19)

Fake smiling.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:21)

What’s something your body knows before your brain catches up? Best piece of advice you’ve ever received that you had that had nothing to do with communication and yet it had everything to do with it. Okay.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (42:25)

Gaslighting.

 

I actually have two.

 

So the first one was James Morrison, ⁓ was one of the teachers when I was ⁓ learning to be a musician at a camp. And someone asked him what his big break was, and he said, There are no big breaks, just lots of little ones. And the other one was years later interacting with Don Walker, the pianist and songwriter from Cold Chisel, and I asked him.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:54)

Love there?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (43:04)

Have you got any tips for a burgeoning songwriter? And he said, Yes, kiss. And I was I don’t think so. No, no, keep it simple, stupid. I’m thinking Yeah. I think about it all the time. Look, it’s not a not pretty and it’s not kind, but it’s true. It is true.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (43:14)

And do you think I went to the b

 

How often do we over overcomplicate things? Yeah. So two conversations that we’ve had together, the the voice you have for the voice you use, the visibility you earn and the one that’s actually yours. Mm-hmm. What should somebody do to actually engage with you if they want to work on either of those two things?

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (43:48)

⁓ get in touch. I love having this conversation, even if I’m not the right person for you, which, you know, not everyone is your person. ⁓ I can definitely always make recommendations of resources. But if you’d love to work with me and I’d love to work with you, please do get in touch ⁓ via LinkedIn or at findyourvoice dot com dot au or emanuelagrace dot com.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:08)

Fantastic. Emmanuella, thank you. Because this is just the type of conversation power of women exists to to share. Because these are the the investments that people you know think about making in themselves when they don’t even know where to start or or what to do, or they can’t quite put their finger on what it is that’s not gelling. And hopefully conversations like this bring that to the surface and and this gives them a roadmap.

 

EMMANUELLA GRACE [GUEST] (44:35)

Yep. And everyone’s journey’s diff everyone’s journey’s different, right? So some people might just need a book at the right time or a podcast at the right time. And some people might need a bit more support, you know. And so that’s why speaking to someone who understands really how how this process works can really help you find your way through it as well.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:55)

I find with every episode I too learn learn something and and between talking with you and and living in a household where emphasis is the be and all about what we say it’s a it’s an ongoing learning curve. So I’d love you to engage with ⁓ with us and and leave a review and let us know what you think about episodes like this because that’s what propels these podcasts out into the ether for more people to listen to.

 

And come and engage with me on LinkedIn. I write a couple of newsletters. I certainly write a a fortnightly newsletter that accompanies each one of these episodes. And I also talk about power of reinvention, which is a little bit of a a fun topic that ⁓ at ⁓ in my sixties is rather a passion project. Until next time.