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Stressed? What Your Heart Rate Is Telling You

Stressed? What Your Heart Rate Is Telling You

by | May 4, 2026 | Female Leaders, Health & Wellbeing

Most high-performing women believe they are coping. The data tells a different story. In this episode, Di Gillett sits down with Jane Smorodnikova, founder and CEO of Welltory: the world’s first consumer app to use heart rate variability (HRV) to measure stress, energy and recovery in real time – to have the conversation that every woman running on empty needs to hear.

From building a 16-million-user global platform without institutional funding, to navigating the physiological cost of chronic stress as a female founder, Jane brings both the science and the lived experience. This is an evidence-based, boundary-pushing conversation about what is really happening inside the female nervous system, and what the data reveals when we stop lying to ourselves.

 

➡️We explore :

How Jane built a 16-million-user platform to profitability without Silicon Valley backing

The personal cost of founder stress and what Jane believes triggered early perimenopause signs

Why women experience stress differently – the ‘tend and befriend’ response versus fight or flight

What signals high-performing women consistently ignore and how long the nervous system can compensate before it forces a reset

Heart rate variability explained in plain language and why it is a more powerful measure than steps, calories or hours slept

How HRV shifts during perimenopause and menopause, and why so many women in midlife are misdiagnosed

The role of AI in personal health – where it genuinely helps and where caution is essential

Who really owns your biometric data — and what happens to it when investors get involved

Jane’s daily non-negotiables for her nervous system and her one metric every woman should prioritise over productivity and weight

 

Key Takeaways:

Stress is not just psychological – it accumulates physiologically and the body keeps an honest score, even when the mind insists it is coping.

Women’s stress response is biologically distinct. The ‘tend and befriend’ pattern means women often channel stress into caring for others, masking burnout until the system crashes.

Heart rate variability is the metric of adaptability. The more variable your heart rate, the more resilient your nervous system.

Running in the morning does not cancel ten hours of back-to-back Zoom calls. Stress management requires active release throughout the day, not just morning exercise.

Six hours of sleep sustained across a week produces cognitive impairment equivalent to being drunk.

Perimenopause is frequently misdiagnosed as depression or anxiety. HRV data can help women identify that something is physiologically shifting and advocate for themselves with greater authority.

Biometric data is legally yours – but understanding who owns the company holding it matters.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:03)

So Jane, in your view, what is the power of women?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (00:09)

When I hear that, I mostly think about the systems and organisations and movements women built to solve their own problems outside of system and organisations built by men and for men. So, for example, when Venture Capital firm that is from women decide to invest in female founders.

 

because they are basically 30 times more successful but get only 2 % of venture capital. Or when there is a community that’s lobbying research for endometriosis or ⁓ bringing the gaps in scientific research because most of medical and health research is made by ⁓

 

on men bodies because men’s body considered as a human body and women are too complicated to research because of the cycles and all these things. So yeah, I think the power of women is like when women just stop relying on society and start to solve their own problems by themselves.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:31)

So how many of you believe you’re managing stress or is it your body simply compensating? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power Of Women Podcast and welcome to our regular listeners and for those new to this platform, we’re about the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

 

Now I know health and wellbeing and the focus on managing our stress levels has become a recurring theme on this podcast of late. But personal experience and your feedback has catapulted this to front of mind and if it’s happening to me, I suspect it’s happening to you too. Which is why I am thrilled to welcome today’s guest with whom I’m going to take a more evidence-based angle to the discussion.

 

as we explore the intersection of leadership, science, resilience, and the reality of modern stress. Jane Smorodnikova is the founder and CEO of Waltory, the first consumer app to use heart rate variability. I’m gonna say that again for Daryl. The first consumer app to use heart rate variability to help everyday people understand stress,

 

energy and recovery in real time. Jane took a clinical metric once reserved for elite athletes and laboratories and turned it into a daily decision-making tool used by millions globally. And you may recognize the name as the app on your iPhone or your smartphone with the red heart. But behind the 16 million user platform is a woman managing her own nervous system.

 

And that’s part of today’s conversation. And what we’re going to cover is scaling a global business, the physiological cost of chronic stress on high performing women and how HRV changes our understanding of recovery and where AI enhances health and also where caution is required. So let’s get started. Jane Smirodnikova, welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (03:52)

Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:57)

Jane, could we just wind back before Woltree became a 16 million user platform? What did you identify as the opportunity and what was behind the app?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (04:12)

Yeah, basically, you know, ⁓ it was a pure ambition because ⁓ I was a fan of this like changing the world’s disruption startups. And at about 35, I had something like a panic attack that, you know, all the big challenges and big markets are transformed with data already. And it’s like nothing left to make something huge. ⁓

 

Of course, it was a silly thought, anyway, and ⁓ I realized that healthcare is the last industry that was not transformed with data. At the same time, human generated data is growing much faster than any other data on the planet. ⁓ And that’s an opportunity. So you just see like the biggest market on earth, the biggest challenge on earth, and it’s unsolved.

 

So that’s how we actually started to go there. And next, if you want to do something in any industry with the data, you need to find your metric. Because all transformation like Spotify metric is the data that how you actually listen to particular song. For marketing, it’s how you click on particular ad.

 

or Uber is geolocation data of the driver. So if you want to transform ⁓ an industry, you need a metric. And the first problem we found is that actually there was no metric for health, only metrics for disease. And that’s how we actually found the heart rate variability that can track you from like ⁓ you’re almost dead to you’re in your best shape possible.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:02)

Hmm, isn’t that interesting we had the negative not that not the positive. Yeah

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:07)

Yeah, and that’s why hardware rate variability was used for people in whose health and performance some industries are interested in, like professional athletes, like military. Yeah, and for normal human beings, there is no financial interest at any organization or a group.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:36)

Yeah, yeah

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:37)

In our health, basically.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:39)

Yeah, so with that in mind Jane, how difficult was it to get the interest of investors when you came up with this idea?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:51)

So basically we have never raised institutional funding, only some angels because we were not able to manage like when we came to Silicon Valley in 2018 and we had this app that was able to track hardware capability with just a phone camera and interpret it in a personalized way.

 

and investors got their medical experts and medical experts told us that heart rate variability will never be popular and our bet was that it will be on the risk in 24-7 months and they said it’s not possible it will not happen anytime so we lost our chances to fundraise ⁓ but we were right and they were wrong so we just you know

 

decided to continue without ⁓ big venture funding and became profitable as a result.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:48)

There you go, that’s very satisfying I bet.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (07:51)

Yeah, you know, it’s a very cool thing talking about like tracking your founder’s stress. There is no more stressful thing that ⁓ your chances to die every month. so on our young years before profitability, I had a really strong correlation between my stress levels and our revenue. And

 

This correlation just disappeared when we became profitable.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:23)

Yeah, there you go. think many could relate to that, albeit not everybody puts their everything on the line to throw into a business. So at what point did you realise that this had potential to scale globally?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (08:42)

It was about three years of the company ⁓ when finally ⁓ Apple Watch managed to measure heart rate variability in the background. We understood that ⁓ you can’t build a huge company if you have retention metrics like usual health app, ⁓ like a benchmark. You need something extraordinary.

 

and that’s why we turned all the data we collect into something like a Twitter feed from your body and when we launched it, we started to grow like crazy, like 30 % per month and people, retention spiked and people tried, like started to buy it like crazy.

 

So, and we grew like, without funding, the problem is that when you grew too fast, at some point your servers will not…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:40)

Yeah. So you needed the funding to even exist. Yeah. Yeah.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (09:47)

Yeah, yeah, and it was hard because there was no funding for us ⁓ and like we had to repair our service, we changed our technical team, we changed leadership team. Somehow we survived, I think only because of the team and their dedication to our company and mission.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:07)

How many of you in the team in those early days, Jane?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (10:10)

about 100 people.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:11)

Okay, yeah, so there was quite a workforce behind it. So in that funding journey and not being able to go to market because of the wonderful promotion of those in the finance world, did you find the angel funders were female-centric, tech-centric? What were the profiles of the

 

of the actual angel funders who became interested in this proposition.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (10:42)

Basically, ⁓ most of our angels are just like people who knew us before and who understood that basically they invest in the team, like just trust them that you’re able to build something. So that’s where our first investors and of course, like our connections and connections of my co-founders were like the major reason for

 

like about like 10 million fundraising that we made in like our early days from the angels but it’s actually pretty big in terms of the angels so most of them are entrepreneurs like founders who had built their own company and there are different ⁓ like process management companies, gaming companies

 

logistics companies like ⁓ other setups like this so most of them are founders not professional investors.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:41)

Yeah, interesting. So my question, my next question could be could be personal or commercial. What did growth actually cost you?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (11:55)

⁓ I personally think that’s ⁓ the reason I started to get early pyramid-aposal signs because of that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:09)

Please do. Expand on that.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (12:12)

Yeah, because it’s really hard. You know, I know that ⁓ and it’s like there have been research about this that founders are more stress resilient than most people. And that’s actually how you get into this crazy job. ⁓ But as a result,

 

you have no way out, you cannot just go to another company and ⁓ just decide that’s all for me, so you just need to stand no matter what. ⁓ I think that I have seen all my limitations and reached my limits a lot of times and of course it’s

 

You have to learn to manage this because you can adjust, you know, burnout and go to sabbatical for two months. ⁓ So you don’t have such an option. So you have to learn how to manage yourself, even if the pressure is too high. And ⁓ at the same time, you know, I think that when I was young and when I was like, if it

 

In more early days, I just decided that I should not rely on any venture funding. I should not expect any understanding from any external ⁓ community and just rely on yourself. It would save me a lot of energy.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:47)

I was going to say, is that more or less stressful not having the pressure of external funding?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (13:57)

It’s much easier to rely on yourself. It’s what right now, like for last couple of years, when my co founder left and I like the only one standing founder in the company, it was first it was like really hard. But then you realize that ⁓ it’s much easier to just rely on yourself and manage yourself without any expectations without

 

like trying to be nice and look good and etc etc and managing your own energy with respect.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:31)

Yeah. So how have you managed the pressure? What have you done?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (14:36)

You know, it’s like really ⁓ stupid personal tricks because like for everybody you just need to, ⁓ if you want to achieve something, you need to invest in your recovery and support system, like in your infrastructure. And it’s like, it should be serious. So that’s why actually I live on the islands. I see the sea every day in my window. I can meditate in a Buddhist temple.

 

⁓ I can go to Thai massage on a daily basis or weekly basis. So you invest in your recovery and your infrastructure.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:18)

Sure. So Jane, can you just share with our listeners, where do you spend six months of your year? Where are you right now?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (15:28)

I live on an island called Koh Samui. It’s near the temple that was in that Netflix series about Thailand recently. I live here. my house is even in the series. Easy, really. There you go. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:37)

White lotion.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (15:48)

And it’s very nice here. It’s very peaceful. Nothing is happening here. It’s very stable. And so I just travel to Europe, to the United States for business meetings. So I had this particular time in the year when I communicate with external worlds. And then I just go back to a safe spot and work on the intellectual heavy tasks on algorithms, on building the company and the product, etc.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:18)

So have you been monitoring your own heart rate variability during the journey of building the business?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (16:26)

Of course, for us it’s our everyday. We are not just monitoring heart rate variability, we are monitoring everything and building new algorithms all the time. But thanks God, thanks to ⁓ Valtteri, think my heart rate variability today is better than 10 years ago when I was smoking and not exercising and not monitoring everything.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:50)

There you go. weren’t, you weren’t, see, you weren’t a good pin up in those days. So it’s taken you down a wellness, conscious wellness approach as well, which, but I can understand that the stresses of founders don’t always see you follow the best habits because the pressure’s high. So Jane, for…

 

high performing women listening and what you’ve learned about this data that you have been gathering, what are the signals that we typically ignore?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (17:26)

Basically, ignore most of the signals from our body. we, like people in Western civilizations are not aware about what is going on in their bodies. And the problem when pressure started to grow and you started to experience stress, your ability to feel decreased even more. So that’s why you just get your stress reaction. ⁓ And

 

If your stress is not managed and it’s not finished, it just continues to accumulate. And here is like very important thing about the women, because we were taught that stress is a fight or fight response. ⁓ So just you can run or you can fight, but for women, there is a third way. It’s called something like ten and be friends. So

 

they just start to take care more about people around them because it’s a pattern they use to build a more safe environment. And that’s how they become obsessed with the clean and taking care of kids and taking care of their partners, et cetera. And when they do not have a great feedback on that and support, ⁓

 

and oxytocin that should be generated there, they just get more burnout and more stress. And that’s why you just like, you need to find out what type of stress and what type of emotion actually you’re experiencing ⁓ and find a way to release the stress. Like for example, if you feel anger and aggression and rage, go to MMA or something and actually beat somebody.

 

It’s like, it’s very good ⁓ to, ⁓ like, you know, just to release your stress. Or if you feel anger, but it’s cold, go to shooting and shoot something. ⁓ It also works very well. If you feel fear, you can run. And that’s when running is really helpful and walking is really helpful. And if you feel unsafe,

 

build connections, but if your relationships in your house are not good, fill it outside with some women group, with volunteering, with something that actually will give you gratitude back to support and like will make you feel more safe.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:04)

So with coming back to the app for a moment, does it show how the impact of stress or does it detect the impact of stress on our sleep, our hormones and on our cognitive clarity?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (20:24)

So basically ⁓ you can see how your brain is ready for work every day if you’re measuring the morning. So you can see your ability to focus and you can see ⁓ how much energy do you have and of course you can see how your sleep is changing if something is wrong. So yeah you can see all this stuff like except probably hormones because it’s a blood ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:49)

future.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (20:50)

⁓

 

Yeah, yeah, much much harder to measure but yes, you can see all this and like the most important thing that ⁓ why we are like calling this like the first up to measure it in real time is that you we can track your stress that is accumulated ⁓ when you’re just sitting down with a zoom call with a stressful person, for example, and you can see

 

that this person basically is generating your stress and this one and talks with this one are actually good for you. And then you can see how walking or other activities are releasing your stress and you can see how you can release the stress and that’s how to manage through the day not to come to 100 stress at the end of the day. Because you know, there is a huge myth around

 

the women or the high-performing men that if you are running in the morning, ⁓ enjoying in the morning, and then you have 10 hours of Zoom calls, and basically you’re okay because you’re exercising, that’s bullshit. Because ⁓ you spent 10 hours accumulated with the stress, you went to the sleep with 100 % of stress, your sleep was not good, and you’re just in the cycle of burnout.

 

So of course you will be more resilient, a little bit more resilient than if like in comparison with people who are not exercising at all. But managing stress is not about just this. You need to fill these things into the day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:26)

Like anything, if we don’t measure it, we don’t know what’s going on and therefore we can’t address it. So is the crux of what makes this so valuable, the fact that it is gathering the data and giving us the measurement by which to make the decisions, is that the sweet spot?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (22:49)

Yes, because it’s very personal. Nobody can provide you any recommendations and interventions that actually 100 % will work for you.

 

⁓ Everybody is unique, your environment is unique, your body is unique, you need to find out things that are working for yourself in your personal conditions. So that’s why you just need to see what is going on when you try these things, how your body reacts, when you try these things, how your body reacts. Sometimes you just find out something cool like, for example, I know a of people who are just laying down with a laptop on the Zoom calls.

 

and their stress stops accumulating because they’re laying down. And for other people it doesn’t work like that. So you just need to like explore yourself like you’re a scientist of yourself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:44)

Yeah, got it. Well look, you’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to unpack how HRV operates in practical language, what it tells us about our energy and recovery and we’ll also touch on perimenopause and menopause.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. I’m talking with the founder of WellTourie, Jane Smarovna Kovar, and it’s a 16 million user platform turning heart rate variability into a daily decision-making tool for stress, energy and recovery.

 

Jane, can you tell us in layman’s terms how this app actually works?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (24:41)

So basically the best way to use our app is just to wear some wearable like Samsung Watch or FitBait or Apple Watch, like anything and connect it to the app. And by getting data from these wearables, we build some visualizations that in the background are really

 

personalized and scientific and based on like tons of millions of data of people like you. ⁓ And it shows how your body reacts and what is going on with your body. ⁓ Talking about your sleep, your exercises, your recovery process, your stress, your energy, like, and basically even your general health, like your

 

ability of your body to cope with what is going on. And if this metric is going down, you actually need to go to the hospital if you see the red lights ⁓ out there. So we are not able to diagnose anything. We are not able to give medical recommendations, of course. But ⁓

 

We have seen tons of stories when we have got a one-star review with a mention that, you know, why you’re telling me that I’m not okay, I feel okay. And usually it means that people just used to feel like that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:12)

Mmm, they’ve got no benchmark.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (26:15)

Yeah, I think that it’s normal. ⁓ But then we tracked this ⁓ reviews ⁓ after like several months. It’s improved on the five star review. And they write to us that, you know, I came to the doctor, I made some tests, we have found this and it can be something different. And so thank you guys, because actually you’re right. ⁓ So that’s ⁓

 

That’s the most lovely review for our team. Every time we just make a check that we help somebody and it feels pretty good.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:55)

rate variability tells us what in essence. ⁓

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (27:00)

To explain heart rate variability, think it’s the very important thing is to understand the difference with the pulse ⁓ which is like your average ⁓ heart rate ⁓ during a minute. imagine a grandma in a room with a temperature of zero, but she has a warm coat, a hat, boots and all the things. And you know that she’s…

 

like being there for an hour with an average temperature of zero, do you think she’s okay? And you think like probably if the cold is warm, she’s fine. But if you know that every 10 minutes the temperature goes from plus 30 to minus 30 for the whole hour, you will not think that she’s okay after this hour. But the median, average

 

temperature is still zero. So that’s the difference. So heart rate variability is milliseconds between each heartbeat. And it’s a time series that shows much more information about what is going on. It shows how your heart tries to adapt to everything what is going on with you. And the nervous system is signaling to your heart, should they be faster or slower or things like that.

 

Your ability of your body to adapt to what is going on is your health. You can imagine some, I don’t know, the tree that you can flex and it’s not breaking, it’s just flexible and that’s your health. But if you will push too much,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:48)

It’ll break.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (28:50)

And that’s your disease basically. So if every disease occurs in your body when the ⁓ pressure is too much and you’re not able to handle, that’s why variability is adaptability. That’s why the more variable you are in general is the better. But just in general, because there are conditions and people for whom like

 

Too much heart rate variability is also not good. It means something just stopped working out there. Yeah, so it’s very personalized. It’s very unique for each phenotype, the type of your nervous system, the type of your genes, et cetera. That’s why you should never just compare bluntly your metrics with other human beings and look more on yourself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:44)

Jane, for those unfamiliar, why is it HRV a more powerful measure than perhaps measuring our steps, our calories or in fact the hours slept?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (29:57)

Yeah, basically, you know, steps are really useless because in terms of your health or longevity, it’s really important to go to some cardio zones that are usually higher than usual walking. So of course, like walking 10,000 steps per day is better than 2,000 steps per day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:24)

But some of those need to be at greater exertion.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (30:27)

Yeah,

 

yeah, so it’s just not enough just to track steps. Yeah, you need to go to the heart rate and the cardio zones. Then talking about like, so heart rate variability is the metric that actually reflects how your body is coping with what is going on and can be measured in a passive mode without any actions and just be collected and be interpreted in like

 

closer to real time. ⁓ So that’s why wearing a wearable with a high quality signal is really something that

 

is important and can collect a lot of data for you. even if you’re like our last algorithms ⁓ and algorithms that we are actually using to detect that ⁓ this Zoom meeting is like more stressful than another one, we are actually not using the heart rate variability itself, but our new algorithms that are trained on heart rate variability, but just uses your heart rate fluctuations during your talking and your personal baselines

 

So it allows you to actually track every minute of your life.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:43)

So that’s actually tapping into our cortisol levels really if somebody’s spiking at all or not.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (31:49)

Yes, yes. And it gives you a metric that is about feedback from your body about everything you are doing and that you can use this data to explore yourself, to know yourself better and to manage yourself better.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:09)

So if I’ve got ⁓ my wearable on and I’ve hooked up to the app and I am checking my HRV on a daily level, a daily occurrence, what are the patterns I should be looking for? Are there actual patterns and changes that I should be monitoring for?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (32:33)

You know, it really depends on ⁓ the app you have. the best companies out there who are experts in heart rate variability interpretation, and it’s really not that easy process like Aura or Woop or us, ⁓

 

Each of us develop our own like metrics that actually reveals something, some signal from all this like data. And by like choosing the provider, you’re choosing a set of metrics that actually you’re reflecting on because like the raw metrics are not that useful for not professional people. And each company develops their metric in

 

in connection with the audience they want to reach. Like for example, if WUAP is positioned for people who are actively exercising, the metrics they develop, the stress and recovery metrics or readiness metrics are related to people who are exercising a lot. if like, Aura ⁓ is focused on sleep and she’s like bringing the readiness metric,

 

out of your sleep heart rate variability and shows this and it’s a great metric actually that can be used to track how your daily readiness is changing. So talking about us, are like we also were focusing mostly on like relatively healthy people

 

and we are like changing it right now, but ⁓ we show a lot of metrics, much more because we have been targeting the broader audience from the beginning and the people who are not sick yet and people who are not athletes. And so we have this like long-term metrics like

 

health, so you can monitor the basic high level state of your health. You can monitor intraday fluctuations about what is going on with your body. You can see how your sleep patterns are changing. So it’s a set of metrics and basically visualizations because, you know, people are really bad at interpreting complicated charts. ⁓ So we have found that, for example, showing heart rate variability as a liquid

 

with the color, amount, boiling effects, etc. Like a magic ball of liquid of your nervous system is the best because we incorporate different metrics inside and people intuitively feel, they just see that it’s red and boiling so it’s like not good or it’s like a jelly so they feel like a jelly at the same time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:26)

simple creatures really aren’t we?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (35:29)

Yeah, it’s a very successful visualization. People share it with their relatives all the time, etc. And actually when it’s packed with real science, it works really well. And people feel that ⁓ they learn from it and their brain actually ⁓ training using this data without using their prefrontal cortex. It’s just embodiment.

 

Of what is going on

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:59)

What about when it comes to menopause and perimenopause, which is a topic that invariably comes up for the power of women community, Is this app and is this measure useful at that time in our lives?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (36:18)

⁓ Yes, because you need to notice that something is wrong and you will notice it, that something is wrong. ⁓ I should say that we are not that good in helping perimenopausal women right now, but we are going there this year. That’s the goal of this year for us. ⁓ But what I know is that ⁓ perimenopausal women

 

are usually misdiagnosed, are usually get into depression signs, usually… Yeah, I usually, you know, get highlighted with that you’re depressed or emotional or panicking or etc. And all this is bullshit because there is this like, your ability to adapt is changing because your nervous system become so sensitive.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:53)

So true.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (37:14)

that it’s really hard to adapt to things and that’s why it’s so serious thing. It lasts so long. You need to prepare yourself in life.

 

as soon as possible. You need to build muscle, you need to take care of your bones, you need to get some resistant training when your bones get feedback from reality. You need to get much more protein, etc. So you just like you need to prepare yourself and change your support system because it’s not a joke. And you need to find a doctor who is not thinking that it’s a joke or you’re just depressed.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:53)

With the integration of this data and AI, is there anything or any cautions that you would call out in terms of the information that is coming back? It’s not to be designed as Dr. Google. That’s not what the idea is. This is about giving us real-time information to make informed decisions, yes?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (38:22)

So we are basically ⁓ not ⁓ trying to provide some AI chats right now because everybody is doing AI chat, et cetera. So we are focusing on the data that actually you can take to AI chat and talk with them about it. But talking about AI, of course, is really important because ⁓

 

There is an elephant in the room that ⁓ is positioned like a general wellness in most of these companies, ⁓ but people are talking serious medical questions with them and discussing all of their medical questions with them and tons of people trust AI.

 

more than their doctors actually because doctors just talk with them like 15 minutes or something and with AI they can upload all the data and talk about etc. So I think it’s really serious and we need to understand that it’s a fundamental shift that everybody just start to use AI as a doctor no matter what positioning in marketing you are using.

 

And everybody knows that actually, but like, you know, FDA is calm and do not like want to intervene. ⁓ it’s, and actually, AI is good. But the problem is that it’s as good as the questions that are asked and the data that is provided and the timing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:57)

Of course.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (40:03)

that actually you’re asking and people tend to ask the wrong questions in the wrong time period of time. of course, AI is great and much better than you have you just cannot afford a doctor or you can get to a doctor in six months or something. It’s much better than not having

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (40:25)

But there’s the caution because if you haven’t articulated the question in quite the right manner, the information you’re getting back is only as good as the question asked. It’s like briefing an ad agency. Crap briefing, crap ad. Good briefing, good ad.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (40:41)

Yeah,

 

engineers call it garbage in, garbage out. So ⁓ yeah, the simple tips here, ask one AI to check the answers of another AI. ⁓ After you’re asking something, ⁓ ask, you sure? Prove me, give me some sources. Even two AI, just prove this wrong. Give me some sources. ⁓ Is it really true? Think one more time. So even just this simple thing like, can you think one more time?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:11)

Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good advice. So Jane, who owns the biometric data that you’re gathering?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (41:22)

It’s like who owns is a tricky question. basically, yeah, of course, it’s managed by the companies you’re using to generate, to store and to analyze this data. And the things that ⁓ they will do with this data depends on the law.

 

And thanks God we have the law that says that data is yours and you can take it out, that you can ask them to delete it, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ But also ⁓ you can think about ⁓ the ownership of the company and ⁓ what is like is going on there. Like imagine a startup, for example.

 

is launching and they have great intentions, building great company, building great algorithms, etc. Then they fundraise and then they fundraise one more time and then they fundraise one more time and from broader

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:27)

in the insurance firm invest.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (42:29)

And at broader perspective, you just see a successful company. But you know that ⁓ usually even on the second round of financing, ⁓ founder cannot control anything and cannot stop anything. And then you have a company that is owned by investors and financial people and controlled by financial people and the basic ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:57)

Go Yeah.

 

⁓

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (43:00)

of Deliver C-Corp is to provide the profits ⁓ to the shareholders. like you have a situation when the patient interests can get into confrontation with financial interests. And that’s how we get to the worst things in healthcare that we see right now.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:18)

Absolutely,

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (43:28)

So it’s very important to understand who is behind the company.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:32)

It’s like understanding who’s actually advertising and you often see these well-being ads but you know that it’s being funded by a drug company that’s heavily invested behind the scenes. So hence the question and I know that’s a very political area to get into which we won’t but I appreciate your insights in that Jane.

 

Could I ask you a couple of rapid fire questions just to round up today’s discussion? One daily non-negotiable for your nervous system.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (44:14)

I think it’s like ⁓ moving around the day. ⁓ Small moves, go to coffee, ⁓ lay down, just ⁓ breathe, look at the sea or the sky or something. Just not get stuck into some particular one situation like your chair and Zoom. ⁓ That’s one thing that you should be most afraid of.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (44:44)

One metric, women should care about more than productivity and their weight.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (44:50)

I would say that it’s their ability to recover and their support system. They should care about their support infrastructure and recovery infrastructure as they do care about their productivity infrastructure. That’s really important and it includes some variables and devices and apps, et cetera, but also other things like the safe space, the personal space, the space when you can be alone.

 

when you can feel engaged with some great social connections, etc. So your support system is like the most important thing. It’s not a joke. It’s a really very important investment.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:32)

Yeah so Jane if a high performing woman is listening to this today and suspects she’s functioning in chronic stress but still tells herself she’s coping what would you say to her?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (45:47)

that you are not coping. ⁓ You can check it out with the data. in denial. Yeah, because usually when we are stressed, ⁓ we try to influence our minds that we are coping, everything is okay, we will get through this, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and all these things are not healthy.

 

It’s not true that you are more efficient if you just work 12 hours a day. It’s just not true. You are more efficient if you are recovered, if you slept well, if your prefrontal cortex is working actually. So just don’t lie to yourself. ⁓ You don’t have to be like the silly movies when people just work, then sleep for six hours and then work again.

 

There are tons of research that shows that ⁓ in a week of six hours sleep, you are just drunk in terms of intellectual productivity. all this is lie about. Yeah, so ⁓ just get into reality, face your reality, face the reality of your limits of your body. It’s okay. It can be managed in a proper way and everything will be okay.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:58)

Your cognitive impairment.

 

Yeah. So Jane, is the WorldTour app work with all forms of smartphones?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah, it works with the iPhone and Android, but not with all wearables. We have the best integration possible, but we try to increase this amount all the time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:36)

So

 

I can connect my Fitbit to the app and start tracking real time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there we go. So for the listeners today, I think this focus on health and wellbeing, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, has become a little bit of a hefty focus over the last few months. I had a personal experience starting the new year with

 

symptoms of a heart attack turned out that it wasn’t ⁓ and I’m now monitoring just about everything that moves in my world to make sure that I do know what’s going on and in actual fact I do a echo stress test tomorrow so that will tell me even more about my heart rate variability and what’s going on. But to Jane’s point,

 

Don’t ignore what’s going on and there are so many times when we are so run down and so burnt out exactly to the point that was raised our cognitive impairment is the equivalent of being drunk. So if you are getting poor sleep, poor rest, no mindfulness practices, you are probably running on empty and doing yourselves no favors and if you listen to what I talked about on the podcast with Maddy Dyckvold

 

It is not going to be about aging well and your longevity is going to be compromised. And we all know now that protein and our muscle strength and muscle and bone density is a key part to aging well. And this wrapped around it is a great way to track it to know where you’re at. So Jane, thank you so much for your time today and sharing it with our listeners on the Power of Women podcast.

 

and I look forward to sharing more of this information with the community going forward. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

02:24 The Journey of Welltory: From Idea to Global Impact

03:57 Identifying Opportunities in Healthcare Data

08:42 Scaling a Global Business: Key Milestones

11:55 The Personal Cost of Growth

14:36 Managing Pressure: Personal Strategies

17:14 Understanding Heart Rate Variability (HRV)

20:04 The Importance of Listening to Our Bodies

22:26 Measuring Stress and Recovery

26:55 The Science Behind Heart Rate Variability

32:33 Patterns to Monitor in HRV

36:18 Navigating Menopause and Perimenopause

38:22 Cautions with AI in Health Data

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Jane Smorodnikova at:

Website https://welltory.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/smorodnikova/?skipRedirect=true

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/welltory/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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How to Reset, Rebuild & Rise Stronger After a Major Setback

How to Reset, Rebuild & Rise Stronger After a Major Setback

by | Apr 20, 2026 | Burnout, Female Power, Health & Wellbeing

Insights into how to rebuild & rise stronger.

What happens when the very qualities that built your success almost break you? When you whole identity is wrapped up in your career – your title.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett sits down with Tess Brouwer, former Virgin Australia executive, now Chief Energy Officer and Co-Founder of Awake Academy to explore what it truly takes to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger after life changes in an instant.

At 32, Tess was a high-performing corporate leader living in Switzerland when a skiing accident left her with a spinal cord injury, Guillain-Barré diagnosis, multiple surgeries and months in rehabilitation. Her identity had been built on performance, drive and achievement. Suddenly, none of that worked.

This is a raw and honest conversation about identity grief, burnout, nervous system overload, emotional resilience and rebuilding self-worth from the ground up.

 

➡️ You’ll Hear :

The life-changing accident that forced Tess to confront her identity

Why high performers ignore red flags – until they can’t

The difference between grit and true resilience

How mental fitness differs from “pushing through”

Why burnout is often a wake-up call, not a weakness

Practical daily resets to regulate your nervous system

The simple question every ambitious woman must ask herself: Am I enjoying my life?

 

❇ Key Takeaways:

The warning signs high performers need to listen to

The hidden cost of tying self-worth to work

How to train your nervous system under pressure

The power of daily micro-resets.

 

Tess said:

“Power is a silent self-trust.”

“If I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something … who am I?”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (00:02)

Tess, when you hear the words power of women and reflecting on your own experiences, what comes to mind?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:09)

⁓

 

Di, I love that you asked this question and I just turned 40 on the weekend and I you very much. I’ve been thinking about my word and what will it be for the next decade and I anchored on power, believe it or not, and I anchored on that because for me it’s not power I can rule the world, it’s a deep embodiment of who I am.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (00:16)

Happy birthday!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:38)

And knowing that I’ve done the work, that I’ve found my soul, my dark spots, my triggers, I mean, they’re always unfolding. But the power in that when you know yourself, when you start to love yourself again, when you trust in yourself, which I’ve never had that before, and it’s been a long process for me to get there. So I would say it’s like a power for me is a silent self-trust.

 

and a belief in myself that can ride the waves, can ride the storms, and is a really grounded, beautiful force, which is the divine feminine. And so that to me is the true embodiment of power now for me. So bring on power, hey?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (01:26)

Yay. Brilliant. So what happens when the very qualities that built your success, your drive, your identity, your refusal to stop are actually the same qualities that almost break you? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And if you’re joining us for the first time, what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements

 

of women from all walks of life. And this conversation is about pushing through and ignoring some of the signs. And that is a deeply personal conversation for me because I started the beginning of this year, in fact, New Year’s Day, with having a sign, not quite so sure, deciding to listen to it and spent three days.

 

in a hospital in Melbourne in Australia with a suspected heart attack. Now I am absolutely thrilled to say that it didn’t end up being the case, but what it was was the fact that I had pushed too hard and literally run myself into the ground. So to put some more context to this, I am joined today by Tess Brouwer, mental and emotional fitness expert, co-founder of Awake Academy with Lane Beachley.

 

And Tess is the former head of brand partnerships at Virgin Australia. And she’s a woman who rebuilt her life after a life-changing spinal and brain injury. Tess was a high performer in the corporate world. There were big deals, big responsibilities, big identity. Then a skiing accident at 32 changed everything. A spinal injury, Guillain-Barre diagnosis, multiple hospital. ⁓

 

visits, a body that wouldn’t cooperate, and a nervous system in overload. So in a conversation today, we’re going to explore how to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger when your identity fractures. Because the reality is for any of us, life can change in a blink of an eye. Tess Brouwer, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (03:51)

Thank you, Di. When you hear those words being read about you, I’m instantly emotional. I’m instantly back there. Someone said to me the other day, it was actually one of my friends, are you okay? You’re talking about it a lot. And I feel like that’s the true sense of power is, is knowing that it, that trauma and that pain still sits within and you can work through it and you’re comfortable sitting in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:21)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (04:22)

I spent so long ignoring myself, my feelings and my emotions and passing them off as, know, well, there’s a war going on. Who am I to experience pain? but yeah, thank you for a beautiful intro, but yeah, know that it’s still hard hearing that because I still am in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:40)

So all of that emotion is going to come through in our conversation today, Tess. And if there is at any point where you want to call a break, you call a break. Thank Because I get it. Yeah. So could we go back, take us back to the skiing accident? What happened? And more importantly, what happened in the days and the weeks after you realized this wasn’t something you could just ignore and push through?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (05:09)

The truth is, is I knew instantly. So I just moved over to Switzerland and I was like first week, new job, skiing day and went up a black run with the team because that’s what you do when you’re a high performance woman who’s out to impress everyone. And a skier went past me. It was a very, very foggy, like white out up there. And I went straight into the side of a ⁓

 

Ice wall because he had to come down the mountain through And Yeah, I lost both my skis slammed headfirst into the ice wall lost the lost both the skis and just I remember going blank and I remember pins and needles shot through my body and then I just the adrenaline just searched and I just got up laughing trying to kind of overcome what was happening in my in myself and

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (05:40)

because you had no perspective you couldn’t read the ground

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:06)

Deep down I knew, I remember thinking, you’ve done something here. But I had to carry on. I had to do what I’ve always done. I don’t want to be the person that’s in shame or the person that’s the troubled one. I just wanted to click back in and keep going. And I did. And I got off the mountain pretty quickly. I just needed to get away cracking headache and all I wanted to do was go to sleep. And it’s not like me to miss a party day.

 

⁓ And I didn’t want to go to the after party. I just needed to go home and go to sleep now when your identity is wrapped up in your work and For context I had just sold out everything and moved to overseas so

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (06:51)

So this was a permanent move to Europe?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:57)

I’d signed over my residency to Australia. I was now residing in Switzerland. So the mere thought that something was wrong with me and that I would need any sort of form of medical treatment just wasn’t even a concept to me. So I did what I have always done is I carried on. And that looked like for me is pins and needles up and down my hand, loss of feeling in my shoes.

 

I got in my feet, so I got my mum to send over shoes that I loved in Australia because I felt like I had more feeling in my feet in them.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (07:33)

So you’re already looking for band-aids

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (07:38)

And

 

there was a pivotal moment where I was swimming in Lake Geneva and I was diving through the water and I totally lost feeling in my legs. I remember swimming and I remember thinking, I am going to drown because it’s quite, there’s quite a rapid that goes down there. I’m like, everything in me was get to the edge of this jetty.

 

And I got there and I was holding onto the jetty and I remember thinking, like, if you don’t get up, you’re gonna drown. And like with every ounce of my body, I just pushed myself up and I laid there almost like, you know, when you see a seal flop themselves up onto a jetty and they’re like…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:21)

Yeah, legs working

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:23)

legs weren’t working and I was just thinking.

 

And so I do what most normal people do is you get out your phone and you Google your symptoms.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:34)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:36)

And it suggested that I had multiple sclerosis, which I thought, well, I can deal with that. Now, if you’re someone who has that, I’m terribly sorry for downplaying that. But in my head, it was the easier thing to capture in my brain because it was something that I could, it was a long term issue that I could deal with when I got back to Australia, you know, when I went back there another time, because I just, didn’t know how to deal with that medical system either.

 

second link like obviously I didn’t even speak French and it was so there was a series of these moments die that were just like I look back on myself and I’m like what were you ignoring I was wetting my pants at work and just going to the shops and buying new ones

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:20)

And that was the spinal injury pressing on nerves.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:24)

messing on my nerves and what was happening was because my spinal cord was bruised, compressed and swelling, I was going into spinal shock and I didn’t realize it. And people can do incredible things with spinal cord injury and not know about it. And they can still, you can still experiencing loss of feeling in hands and all of that. They’re quite like in quote unquote normal experiences as you know, with your back.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:49)

I do.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:50)

that was spinal shock and then your body’s starting to shut down and and that’s when I went to hospital because I just thought I can’t deal with this any longer and I said to them I hit my head they ignored that and they sent me home with an anxiety tablet. Fortunately I was sent straight back to hospital and the next morning for an MRI and at that point they just said look you’re have to be an inpatient because we’ve got to work out what’s wrong with you there’s something going on so.

 

lumbar punctures, being electrocuted, like actually multiple lumbar punctures which is like possibly

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:25)

Very

 

painful. haven’t had one but I’ve witnessed a family member having it and it was unforgettable.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (10:35)

Yeah, it’s a pain that you can’t explain. And I say this with grace to myself at this moment, but I still didn’t call home. I still didn’t call my mom or my family. Shame. Total shame. How could I have ignored my body? How have I gotten to this point? And I was getting really bad. Like I remember my speech

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:02)

How long is it now since the accident? of Okay. Yes.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:04)

Come on.

 

aggressively getting worse. And

 

then I was an hour away, they decided that I had Guillain-Barré disease, which is sort of like a category that they put me in and thought that’s what you’ve got and you’re an hour away from getting a blood transfusion, it’s time you call home. But we want to do one more MRI to completely make sure that you’re all right. And I went down into the MRI machine and I think it was like my third one because they put dye through me and all of those sorts of potes and prods.

 

And the radiologist in broken English said to me, you hit your head, you hit your head. And I said, yes, like that’s what I’ve been saying. Like I know that that’s when my body changed. You know, that moment, right? It wasn’t dramatic at the time, but I knew that that was the

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:51)

aggressive from there. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:54)

And because I was fit and like I just did not have anything like that before that moment. And I said, yeah, I hit my head and he said, you have a spinal cord injury. And I just went bang. And yet the penny dropped and they gave my mom 24 hours to get over to Switzerland. I had to call her and say, mom, I’m okay. But yeah, I’m and

 

Yeah, she got over there and it was one of the most heartbreaking moments ever is seeing my mum walk into the hospital and her daughter is there broken and quite frightened really.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:35)

As was she.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:37)

But I didn’t grasp the high percentage of people who have this surgery. Well, not high, but it’s low risk, but it’s still a high number.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:45)

Anything

 

to do with your spine is scary. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:49)

I

 

didn’t realise the risk that you could actually, like it’s millimetres and my spinal surgeon said to me, you know, you’re lucky, you’re very lucky, I’ve seen scans like this and people are totally paralysed. And so yeah, I went into surgery and what I thought was going to be an eight week surgery turned out to be, I went back, I had the surgery, stayed in hospital for two weeks, went back to Australia to recover, which I thought would be eight weeks.

 

I thought that’s okay, I can get back to work. Because again, that’s all I thought about was just getting back, getting back. And I was back at the hospital, I was an outpatient at Royal North Shore Hospital in Northern Sydney, which has got one of the best spinal wards in Australia there. And they, I went in for just a routine.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:37)

and

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (13:43)

meeting I guess with my spinal surgeon and the physiotherapist and like my whole dream team and they just said you need to sit down and we’ve given you, I had another MRI and they said your spine is swelling and the surgery hasn’t worked and you’re have to go have another surgery again. And again that’s when the world shuts down on you and you fall apart because I mean for someone who has

 

wanted to be a high flyer and climb the corporate ladder and have all of this identity, I knew that that would be it. There would be no job, no home, no clothes, no money, nothing. It was all gone.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (14:21)

You couldn’t see beyond it at that point. was, it was, it was like, we’re done here.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (14:27)

Yeah, that was it. it was like, I truly like there were so many moments where I didn’t realize how serious it was. So even after the surgery, like the second surgery, and just before I went in, it was like 10, maybe 8, 8pm at night, something like that. And my surgeon got called in and he said, Look, I’ve been operating all day, my team are really tired, I’m not going to operate with there’s only one surgery.

 

ward open and I’m not going to do this at night if you don’t absolutely need it.” He said, do you understand? And I said, yeah, I understand. He goes, it’s going to be uncomfortable for you, but we have, like, I have to make sure that your health is number one. And so I went down for the MRI and I came back out and like your worst fears in that moment are realized when you said we’re opening up the surgery, you’re going in tonight.

 

So it was sort

 

of a bit like that, like a snowball that just got worse and worse and worse as time went on. And even more dramatically, like I was getting prepped for surgery and a heart attack came in. So I hope that person survives so badly, but it meant I was then left told that they couldn’t wait, rushed in for surgery only to be pulled out. And then I had to wait for the next slot.

 

which was another 24 hours later because there was another surgery planned. So it was just insane die. then I went very

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (15:54)

frightening. mean very, very frightening because you don’t know what the prognosis is at the end.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (16:01)

And you can retrospectively look back on these things. And I remember waking up in the spinal ward and them saying, it’s not two weeks here. You’re going to go, like we’ve got to get you recovered. And then you’re going to ride. And I said, what’s ride? Like it’s a, it’s one of Australia’s best rehab hospitals and you’ll be there for three months. And I just thought, am I living life?

 

Is this me? Is this what I’ve worked so hard to be?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (16:34)

And I had nowhere near the result, albeit it was a ski accident, but it was in my childhood that came back to haunt me in 2021, which put me in hospital during COVID and put me in hospital for two weeks. And I came out and I couldn’t walk without holding on to my husband’s arm and I’d gone in super fit.

 

and was at a point in my life where I was gonna be fabulous as I approached 60. And I couldn’t walk and I can remember it was late September and I said, I’m gonna be back to walking 10 Ks by the December. And I was nowhere near it and that’s when I was like, I need to take some drastic steps. But I have a some understanding of what happens when

 

everything suddenly is turned on its head and the simple things in life that we take for granted that are wrapped up in our health and wellbeing suddenly are thrown out and we’re staring down the barrel of an alternative universe that doesn’t look so great. Frightening isn’t it?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (17:53)

Frightening, totally frightening.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (17:57)

So do you know how much of your identity was wrapped up in Tess Brouwer, the corporate executive?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:06)

Well, at that point it was Tess Maroney and it was all of it. Every single part of my identity was made up of my work and we laugh about it, but Lane Beachley’s husband is Kurt Pangeli from InXS and he’s, I mean his phone is Tess from Virgin. In fact, sometimes I’ll still have, I’ll email someone and I’ll say, Hey, it’s Tess from Virgin. you remember? Like, cause I still build this like absolute identity that’s wrapped around

 

what you do not who you are and I never went like my mum was a very and is still a very grounded spiritual person but you don’t really want to hear it from mum and I didn’t like

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (18:37)

Mmm.

 

No,

 

anything that close to home doesn’t land unfortunately.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:53)

Yeah, but I realised like I had done like high performance leadership courses and all of those sorts of stuff, but that’s just training you to be a better performer and not a better human. so I was just, I was lost that if I wasn’t performing, who was I?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (19:11)

Yeah, if I wasn’t Tess from Virgin, who was I?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (19:14)

If

 

I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something or being invited somewhere, who am I? And a lot of my friends were getting married, engaged, pregnant, second baby, like creating these truly beautiful lives. And that was the gaping hole in mine, was I had no one to hug at night. I had no one.

 

to hold me up out of the shower when I couldn’t walk. Like had my mom and my family of course, but it even accentuated that whole fact that, wow, I’ve given everything to work and now I don’t need that.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:00)

Yeah, so can you share with us, and I appreciate this is an emotional question, but can you share with us how that changed or impacted your sense of self? Can you take yourself back and describe what that actually felt like?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:17)

Yeah, I mean like it felt like I was alone in life. No one will ever understand the pain that I’m going through. Now in a ward of 24 beds I was the only walker in a spinal ward. So I was alone there too. I had so much guilt. Survivors guilt.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:40)

because the person in the bed next door couldn’t walk.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:44)

Sorry, I tried to check myself out two or three times and give my bed to someone else. And that is true test across my whole life. will give the shirt off my back to anyone apart from myself.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:58)

So you felt like an imposter being in the room? I relate to that. I felt like an imposter when I was in the heart ward at Christmas time because I was sitting up feeling great and the girl in the bed next door had had a pacemaker and the woman across from me wasn’t in a great way. So I get that feeling, but we’re mad. We need to listen.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (21:00)

Totally.

 

We’re mad. And it was the surgeon that said, if you don’t listen to yourself, if you don’t listen to us, and if you don’t put the work in when you’re here, it will be 10 times worse when you get out. And you are here because you need to be here. You’re showing some really strong signs of ⁓ permanent damage. And so this is the time.

 

So then that was a bit easier because I thought, okay, well I’m going to lock in, I know how to perform, I know how to drive myself. So I sort of had like this mental switch. Plus I had two guys that I was in hospital with called Alex and Harrison, who I became like their big sister to, and I devoted every hour, spare hour I had to looking after them. So rehab,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (22:06)

So can I just stop you there for a moment? How much of that was about compassionate tests or was that test trying to find a role to fulfill because you had challenged your own identity as it was previously?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:26)

wonderful question die and the truth is it’s both. That’s the wonderful thing about identity right? It can be two things at the same time. It came from compassion, it came from my heart and I still like love and care for those boys now.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (22:36)

Yep.

 

that came from need as well.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:52)

Yeah, it came from purpose. It came from feeling useful again. Because if I just was sitting in woe is me, my life is, am I allowed to swear?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:02)

Yeah,

 

of course you can. Fucked!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (23:04)

Then I realized that there was tiny things that I could do. could semi use my hands at this point. I could help them Alex clean his teeth. So it just became it just became these little micro moments where I was stacking myself onto these like I could be helpful. I wasn’t like it’s like when they say whenever you think your worst day is is on there’s something even worse that you could be dealing with. So make the most of it. So I just applied that grit.

 

and that resilience to where I was. So I ended up going from just doing one, like helping Alex eat an apple, to then I started running cooking classes for everyone and I’d find out different ways that you could tie a mixer to someone’s hand who had a paralysed hand so that they could cook muffins. So it started becoming part of my therapy and my joy and my light that like I was useful.

 

even in my most useless form.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:06)

Yeah.

 

So when, at what point did you hit that, if I can’t perform, who am I? To then saying, okay, I can now turn this into purpose to help each other. How long into your stay were you before that started?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:27)

It was pretty early on and I remember it. I was lying in bed and the clock on my wall was ticking and driving me insane. I mean hospital bed is pretty dire. Those curtains do not make you feel any better about your

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:47)

self. No they don’t.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:49)

And I popped next door to Alex and I said, is that clock annoying you? He said, I just can’t, I just don’t know what to do about it. So I took it down and I took the batteries out.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (25:02)

Okay, so that prompts my next question because how different does surrendering to your circumstances to be able to move forward differ to actually giving up? What’s the difference there? Because you certainly didn’t give up. You were still being true to yourself even in

 

in saying, I can solve that issue with the and clock.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (25:35)

Yeah, I feel like it just comes from everything I’ve been through and the journey that I’ve been on and that, like to me that is the best thing you can ever do is help someone and to be there for others and to be of service. I knew that to be true throughout my whole life but I didn’t feel that I was worthy of that.

 

or that I had enough to give in terms like I always sort of equated that to be a monetary value. When I was in hospital, it really turned into being my true meaning and purpose at that time was to be there to help everyone around me and to help those boys. And that, and we know this now by all the science, is when you help someone else, really what you’re doing is you’re helping yourself.

 

I didn’t understand the importance of that for my healing journey until I was out and learning about the science of positive psychology and wellbeing. I didn’t realise that it was actually rewiring my brain to feel like to have a mission and vision and purpose is one of the greatest. You need that, you need meaning in your life no matter what it is. And yeah, it was just those micro moments where you put your hand up and say, I can do that. I can help.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:00)

Yep.

 

Yep. And it’s the same in starting power of women. I’m 62. I could retire or I could do something meaningful. Yeah. I’m going to do something meaningful.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (27:15)

Yeah.

 

And thank God you did. Thank God you did. And like it was, there was so many incredible moments in that hospital where like everyone has to leave by 11 o’clock PM. It was actually 9 PM, but it got stretched. And so there’s all of these scary hours of people being alone. But then you wake up at 5 AM in the morning and it’s the same noise, the same sound and the same breakfast for brought to you every day. And the boys hated it.

 

It was the same bacon, eggs, wheat bix and that smell was the triggering thing. Groundhog Day. So I would get up at five o’clock and take the breakfast out of their room. They didn’t have that and that would get me up. So it was like, when I say this just stacked, I was like, okay, I’m going to use this. So that became my superpower. But when I got out die and I lost that, that is when I hit.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:46)

Groundhog Day

 

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (28:10)

the most absolute rock bottom I’ve

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:12)

ever felt. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to move from breakdown to rebuild. you’re loving the Power of Women podcast be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

I’m talking with Tess Brouwer, who for years lived by the mantra, push through, power on, and prove yourself. However, Tess faced into a defining moment when her nervous system was burnt out, her mind was in overdrive, and quite frankly, the wheels simply began to fall off. So in this part of our conversation, we move from breakdown to rebuild, what Tess calls mental fitness.

 

So Tess, the defining moment and the tipping point where you stop fighting and what was, you recognized you needed to reset, that’s where we’re gonna get into this part about mental fitness. But when did you have that moment of going, okay, I’ve got to acknowledge what’s happened and I now need to.

 

take a different approach to what my life looks like. What was the first steps in that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (29:38)

Well, I had a wonderful friend called Lane Beachley. We had met when I was a virgin and like I met a lot of people of all different shape, sizes, importance, all the rest of it. But Lane and I just clicked when we met each other and she came to visit me in hospital and she brought a book in called My Dream Life. And I thought this lady is absolutely out of her fucking mind. I’m in a spinal ward.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (30:06)

This is not my dream life.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (30:08)

Yeah,

 

yeah, but there wasn’t part of me, and I do feel like this was the resilience in me, was I remember looking at a white wall for so long just staring at a ceiling in a neck brace thinking, well, I guess I get to redraw my life. Like I get to, it’s a white canvas. So it put a seed in me. And then when I got out of hospital, like when I say it really hit the fan, like shit really hit the fan for me, it was more like the floor opened up.

 

In hospital, in rehab, you have a schedule every day, which is hour by hour mapped out and you’re working to use your body again. Not so much mentally. I was put on a lot of medication to help me. So anti-anxiety, anti-depression. I was getting like my, had complex PTSD, so I was getting really big flashes and terrors at night. So I was

 

a little bit sedated as well. And so when I got out of hospital, I was 33 living in my bedroom with my parents and I just found myself on the floor just like crying because I’d lost my job, my home, my money. I didn’t even have any clothes at that point. I had a couple of bond sets from and came up because that was just

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (31:26)

because everything was still back overseas.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (31:28)

everything

 

was still back overseas and I really didn’t care. Like I just was like, I don’t care. I’ve got clothes on my back and that’ll do. I couldn’t even imagine wearing normal clothes at that point. And I was just, I wrote one thing in that book and that was start a business. But I thought, how the hell are you going to do that when you, you’d like, you’ve been a corporate girl your whole life, which is safe. And

 

Like could never work a normal job again because I can’t, I now am packaged up as damaged goods in my head. And I remember coming home from a pretty traumatic appointment and it was all to do with my hands to help them work again. And the lady had grabbed me and I just remember looking at her thinking like, you don’t understand what’s wrong with me. Don’t touch me. And that friction was like, is this who I want to be?

 

Do I really want to be that woman? And I got home and I was bawling my eyes out thinking my life is totally fucked. And that was rock bottom. And then I started imagining ways that I could quietly sleep off this beautiful earth. And yeah, that really broke me. And I was, I remember looking out at the headland one day watching the sunrise, just thinking, who do I want to be? You’ve got the choice.

 

I saw a beautiful whale pop up and I just thought you’ve got to do this and I had realized that the story I’ve been telling myself was I’m broken and I’m unlovable and if I keep on telling myself that I will be broken and I will be unlovable So I quick I did a life audit and I saw that what what was that? What was the story? I was just subscribing to was I’m broken. I’m unlovable

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:11)

Yeah.

 

How did you actually do the audit? Was that just in your mind or was that pen to paper?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:24)

Yeah,

 

yeah had no framework. I was doing it on my own and

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:31)

And what were the key things you wrote down in that audit? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:34)

am

 

broken, I’m unlovable, like who is who am I working with, who’s supporting this? Now at the same time I was back at Lane Beechley’s house and I was there with Holly Ransom who you’ll know she’s a power woman herself and at Lane’s house with Kirk Bengeli walking around and their house is like a huge trophy room to be honest and I had my discharge papers of everything that was wrong with me I even published it in our book and Lane

 

I gave it to Holly and Holly read it and gave me a big hug and she’d been in hospital with me and then I gave it to Lane and she read it and she goes, poof! She said, well if you believe all of this bullshit then your life will be fucked. I just want, and if I could rip it up I would.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:16)

There’s the blunt reality check you needed.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:20)

That’s right, love and compassion. But the truth is, when, you call someone out, and this is what I’ve learned about myself in that moment, have the courage and the care to hold them up after. So not,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:34)

You need to know how much they can hear and how much you can be.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:37)

⁓

 

Her lifeline to me was, I have a course that I’m doing by myself in two weeks, which is like her own workshop. I haven’t sold any tickets, like it’s not online yet and I need help designing the course and you’re going to help me do it. And there’s that moment of yes, right? Like take the clock down, take out the batteries. This was saying yes to myself or helping myself. So I just said yes.

 

But I said I can’t work over than an hour, I don’t have any, like I had nothing and she said just go for it. So that was a turning point. I looked at my life and I’m like, what is serving me and what is sabotaging me? And what was serving me was the story of unbroken and ununlovable because I got support, people were behind me, but was it really serving me? No.

 

It would keep me stuck. So I changed my story and in that I went, okay, well what do I need? So I went from 15 therapists down to two and I got one new one and I stayed with an old one and she was really pushing me to go into my pain. You have been running from pain your whole life through drinking, through partying, through clothes, through food, like through busyness, through performance. Like these were all my band aids. And when you’ve lost them all, it becomes

 

very discomf, like the discomfort in that is life changing.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:04)

Do you ever think this accident needed to happen?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:07)

Yes,

 

yes, yes of course it did and if it wasn’t that it would be something else and I think that’s the beautiful thing about the universe is it gives us exactly what we need to wake up and that’s why we call it the awake academy because it was my awakening and if I look back my life I was getting lots of these stones thrown at me I just wasn’t willing to listen yeah I feel like life just then it gets louder

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:19)

Yeah.

 

Yep, and the stones get a little bit more… Bigger? A little bit bigger, I guess.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:40)

Was your face like that? Do you see yours?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:42)

I do and I guess just by the virtue of being older and I, but I mean I’ve had some oh shit moments. mean in 1999 I developed alopecia totalis. I lost all of my hair. I was completely bald. I was the height of my corporate powers and I’m wearing a bandana and a corporate suit and it’s like who the fuck am I now?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:10)

Yeah

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (37:11)

But I managed to get headhunted into a GM role in that state. I validated to myself that I could still function, I still had worth. I recognized that I could talk about my plight and talk to children in the schoolyard because children with alopecia in the schoolyard is a pretty tough place to be because you get bullied and teased and taunted. And a bit like you, Tess, of…

 

Okay, if I put some purpose behind what I’m experiencing and use that to help others, then that is going to help me through. it’s exactly the same. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:55)

exactly same pain to purpose.

 

I think the learning point for me was the fight of the cost of fighting the reality I was in like as in trying to downplay it or ignore it or just trying to like I was like a duck trying to swim with it. ⁓ That was more painful than dealing with it. I just couldn’t see it at the time and learning that neuroscience behind how my brain

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (38:14)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:24)

was I could rewire my brain at any time and I started doing Dr Joe Dispenser meditations morning, noon and night and I was just obsessed with trying to rewire my brain and trying to calm it down because it was just in everything was a threat.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (38:43)

Yeah heightened anxiety. So let’s delve into ⁓ this mental fitness bit. What’s the difference between pure grit and toughness that drove you to push through? mean is grit and toughness the same thing?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:46)

Literally.

 

I would say so. mean, they’re pretty loaded words, grit and toughness. I think we overplay resilience to be pushed through, get up, keep going. I think resilience has a fragility to it where you can sit with it and you learn to process it and you rewire your story and you get help and that is resilience.

 

If we turn that into, you’re so tough, you just get up and go, that’s when it becomes almost like a badge of honor. We’ve overdone it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (39:39)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And, and we use that line as a badge of honor. That’s the madness of it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (39:46)

Yeah, and I think that’s where mental fitness gets a bit clouded or positive psychology and well-being or is that you have to, you know, push through, develop grit, become resilient. That’s not what it is. It’s understanding the truth of what’s going on within the root cause because as you know, emotional pain is one of the biggest causes of stress, injury.

 

disease, like dis-ease in your body, because the body would rather feel physical pain than emotional pain. And we’re very good at going to the gym, working on our bodies, looking great. But where have we put in mental fitness where we can start to use grit as just getting up and going for a walk instead of going for a run? that, you know, there, there’s that stuff. That is the type of language

 

that I love challenging people on. Not in combat, but just what are you associating grit with?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (40:52)

Yeah, that’s interesting. So I know personally resilience, and you’ve touched on it, but resilience can tip into denial. can become your enemy. How do you now define not taking no for an answer in a healthy way without losing that strength of character that is you?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:16)

Yeah, it’s funny, my husband said in his speech that Tess doesn’t take no for an answer, she sees it as a roundabout.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (41:28)

It’s got a softer landing than just not techno for an hour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:32)

Yeah, and I think like the person that I needed to say no to, to be perfectly honest, was myself. And it wasn’t, and maybe that’s the roundabout theory in real life is like pushing through grit, like force. Like I started to apply that mindset. So the mindset that I knew of high performance woman getting shit done, ticking all the right boxes to healing.

 

because your brain can just brings you back to what you’ve always known. So I was trying to do it all, trying to go to every appointment. So was burning myself out in healing. So when I learned what true self love was and what mental fitness and emotional fitness was, was actually saying, no, not now to myself. Like you don’t need to do it all. You need to learn to sit in your pain and discomfort. And then I became aware of that.

 

So that’s when the roundabout came in and it’s like, well, you can’t do all of it, but what’s the something? Like, what would be different about today if you just actually took care of your soul? And that to me was having gentler mornings, not rushing it. And that day is how I rebuilt my life.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (42:52)

Nah, there we go, because it’s going to ask you because I’ve visited Burnout on the podcast on a number of conversations over the last two years and had a terrific conversation, which if anybody listening hasn’t already listened to it with Shanna Kennedy, who was a high performance coach and then burnt out. The difference in this conversation.

 

⁓ is you more than burnt out, you actually broke you, what you, you physically broke. And that’s the, that’s the different bit. So could we get practical at this point in the conversation and for the, for the power of women community for, for a woman navigating a health set back, a career disruption, an identity shift that comes from something.

 

not going to plan and the wheels falling off. What are the non-negotiables in rebuilding that toolkit?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (43:55)

Okay, Di. So first of all, I realised that everything comes from your intentions. So not your expectations, your intentions of who you are and how you want to show up in the world. Now, I knew I wasn’t going to be healthy, strong. All of those words didn’t exist for me. It was, I just want to be sunshine. So I woke up every day and I just made sure I watched the sunrise every day.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (43:58)

I realized.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (44:23)

What would sunshine do? Sunshine can weather all storms, it radiates from within and it just feels good to be around. So I wanted to feel good from within. So if I started there, my day actually became, what can I do to keep my sunshine? Well, I needed to rest, I needed to look after myself. So I would say to everyone, start your day with an intention and your energy will flow from that.

 

energetic beings and we need to be our brains need to tell our bodies what mindset we need that day. It’s not woo woo, it’s neuroscience now. So that would be my number one tip. The side note on that, I met my husband a year later from leaving hospital and the first words he said to me was I am sunshine. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (45:12)

And because you had become somebody people wanted to be around.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:16)

Right. And normally I would have just put my head down and walked away. And yeah, a year later from that day, we were engaged. We got married. We had a baby and having that intent really changed my life. Then I would, and this is something I’ve incorporated because I am entering into perimenopause and I do need to be really conscious of how I feel my body and your brain and your body will fuel on what you feed it. And that includes negative self-talk is as important.

 

to become aware of and to close down as it is for my morning coffee.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (45:49)

Yeah, it’s true. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:51)

So I have a big glass of water with some cracked sea salt to rehydrate my body. And when I do that, I’m drinking it saying, today’s gonna be a great day, show me how good it’s gonna get. And I just have this quiet solitude in my moment. Now, if you’re already doing that, I highly recommend scraping your tongue first thing and cleaning your teeth before you have a drink of water, because then you’re not drinking back down the toxins. That was a game changer.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (46:19)

Yeah, there you go. Not everybody has a tongue scraper in their bathroom, but they should.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:26)

Yeah.

 

We just had Dr. Stacey Sims on our podcast, A Wake Up Call, and she introduced me to a protein coffee. I fasted a lot to help my body heal. And now I’m entering into a season in my life. really need it’s about sustained energy and sustained wellbeing. me. Protein coffee. So you want to have, we don’t want to be in survival mode from the moment we wake up. So fasting works against our hormones.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (46:44)

about a protein coffee that’s

 

Yeah,

 

because that’s fight or flight. Fight or flight? Yeah, cortisol.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:59)

can’t wake up with an egg. ⁓ I like to eat

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (47:04)

I meet my egg at about 11 a.m.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:08)

I just make a coffee and put two scoops of protein in, mix it up and it is delicious and I have really noticed a difference in my energy throughout the day because of

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (47:18)

Yeah, because you’ve kept yourself at a better level. Yeah. But it’s protein start.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah,

 

scheduling breaks. So I look at a lot. I used to look at my diary and say, OK, what needs my attention today? And now I look at it. Where can I build in breaks today? Where am I resting and recovering? Because burnout is a classic. You’re climbing a mountain. You don’t come down again. You just climb the other ones. You’re constantly on peak state. And we we think of that as like maybe a project or a moment in time. But really, if we start looking at that in our day.

 

you start to think, okay, well, how can I build in five minutes here, 90 seconds there, a sunshine break over lunch with no tech, closing my eyes, and start to become aware of what your body and your mind are saying to you. And in those moments of rest, you’re really giving your body time to just close down, decompress, and then you come back with more energy, more clarity, more focus, and at the end of the day,

 

You’re not absolutely late.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:22)

Fucked up. So true. None of these are hard to do. They’re all free. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:31)

They are all free. just need the reminder that this stuff works. I feel like it’s like, it’s so easy to say someone take this pill and it will work. then you.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:43)

But all that’s doing, none of that’s addressing the reason you needed the pill. That’s why I hate that approach.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:49)

Yeah, but ⁓ we did create a Peel Lane and I actually because all of us are experiencing brain fog.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:57)

Both

 

of you might be, yeah, in the M word.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:01)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we worked with a chemist actually, and it’s called wake up. So it’s for those days where you really need to be on focus. That aside, what is so important for me now is I know that emotions last in your body for 90 seconds. Anything other than that. it’s energy in motion is emotion. Anything other than that 90 seconds is the story you wrap around it. So for example,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (49:09)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:29)

email or a phone call comes through and you feel that rage you don’t deal with it you pick up your phone and or you talk to a colleague or someone else and you start raging about it how dare this person you start blaming shaming you start the self-doubt and the chatter comes in

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (49:46)

The

 

second starts getting bigger and bigger. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:50)

Now it’s stored now it’s part of your memory now whenever that person sends or messages you your body instantly goes into fight-or-flight Now in the previous days we could just get up and run because it’s a saber-toothed tiger But you can’t do that when you’re making dinner. It’s ask you for the 18th time what’s for dinner and not offer to help Whatever that looks like whatever that rage moment looks like for you So this is a non-negotiable for me is when I feel triggered

 

and it could be sadness, could be anger, could be even happiness is an emotional trigger, is to sit in it and breathe through it. And there’s a breath called the physiological sigh, which is two breaths in through your nose, like short and long, and then a really slow exhale through the nose. And that puts your body from out of fight or flight into your parasympathetic nervous system and calms you down instantly. And it is my absolute superpower and that is emotional.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (50:48)

Same. I learned that some time ago and I can completely change. And I’ll give you a real life example of that when I had my heart episode at New Year’s Day and I had to go in for an MRI and they said, your heart rate’s too high, we’re gonna have to give you a drug to bring it down. I said, don’t, I’ll do it through breath. And they said, no, we’ll need to give you a drug. I said, give me two minutes.

 

just give me two minutes and I had to really push back and in two minutes it was down below 50. They said, how did you do that? I said, breathing. Don’t give me the drug. So it absolutely worked.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:31)

Isn’t that amazing, Di, that you have the awareness to do that, but then you burnt yourself out and ended up…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (51:38)

⁓ I know, know, yeah, deeply intelligent and deeply flawed, both things can be right.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:45)

I think that’s what I’ve learned in this is having logical awareness of things is not the same as being in practice.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (51:53)

No it’s not. And I hear I listen to your story and I listen to other people’s story and then I go and work my ass off seven days a week and repeat it all over again. Why would

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:02)

Why?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:06)

That’s probably what I haven’t answered yet. think it’s ambition, but it might be more than that. No.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:08)

Yeah.

 

Mine was my self-worth. It should be love.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:15)

Yeah, well

 

those two things, ambition and self-worth, are wrapped together in my world and I’m sure they are in many of our listeners’ worlds too. So, we’re pulling that apart.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:31)

So that, just having the awareness of that dies like the biggest part. It’s like asking myself every day, I doing this because I need to feel loved? Because I’m not getting it from within and having the awareness is, then you say no to jobs that don’t light you up, that you’re doing it for.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:49)

Yeah. Why? Yeah. So Tess, can I ask you, are you stronger now than you were before the accident?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:01)

I’m softer, some would say I’m just as strong, but I’ve turned that strength into a gentle strength. And that’s been the biggest gift.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (53:18)

And that’s emotional to face into. Yeah it And you probably need to teach me that because the tough gritty facade is our armour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:30)

Yeah, and at what cost does that serve us or you? You know what? Anyone listening? And I know that sustained well-being because now I teach it and I’ve taught it to thousands of people and I watch it with Lane Beechley like she won a world title, two world titles in a state of love and freedom. It’s clear, it’s disciplined, it’s not

 

That level of strength doesn’t make you weak. But the other level of strength which is pushing you is like over questioning, pushing through, comparison, the what ifs, the I should, the could, the would.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (54:13)

I

 

need to get on the couch, seriously, I seriously need to take a dead-hunt myself.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (54:17)

And

 

they’re two totally different operating models. when you, if sustained mental fitness, sustained wellbeing is having those cracks warts and all, and just knowing that you are enough, just as you are, and that no amount of financial money will ever prove that too. So for what?

 

Because when you’re on your ass in your parents bedroom with no money, no car, no home, nothing, and you have to learn to love yourself just as you are, you just become softer.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (54:58)

Yeah, yeah, well Tess, that’s a very, very vulnerable conversation and I thank you for being prepared to share that. I’m going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions as we come to a close today.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:16)

Di, can I just close before you go into the wrap-up? The women listening and whether you’re a parent or not and I just want you to relate to this story. We had a lady who was a very high corporate achiever just like me but you know she I think she had three children and she did our course called On Your Streets and it was a one day live or we’ve got it online through the Awake Academy. Yeah. And

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (55:19)

Yeah, sure.

 

the academy.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:45)

We follow up with people a month later because we don’t want to just be a fry pan. you know when you walk, you don’t come to us and walk on hot coals and you’re liberated from life. It’s real grit, but with tool hits. And I saw her a month later and I said, how are going? She’s like, really good. And I’m working through some stuff and I’m just trying to be a more present mom. And that’s great. Like, you know, that for her, that was what she had realized she had left behind was her presence with her family and loved ones.

 

And that to me was a big wake up call. So I’m like, what is success? Like when you are too busy being busy, you miss the joy and the micro moments and the glimmers. And they’re the things that light you up that that’s what living is. It’s not just going on a holiday every few months. It really is the micro moments every day. And I was fortunate enough to see his beautiful soul another month later. So two months have passed and she gave me the biggest hug.

 

And she said to me, think I’ve found it. And I said, what is it? And she said, my kids said that I’m happier.

 

They said, what have you done, mum? You’re so much happier. You’re there with us. You’re fun, mum. And she was identified as being dictator, mum, because she was tired. And that to me, when we talk about pain to purpose, that is my why. Because I know you can still be powerful, but present and gentle and kind. Like you can still be all those things.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:16)

And I think there’s a simple question in that and look in the mirror and say, I enjoying life? I think it’s as simple as that. Okay, yeah. fire. Rapid fire, here we go. So one belief about success you no longer subscribe to.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

That money buys happiness and because of that output would equal worth so that you have to be doing more to being worthy and then then you get more money and then you’ll be happy.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:50)

A red flag high performers should never ignore.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:56)

chronic exhaustion marked as busyness.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:59)

Yes, and the strongest version of you looks like…

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:08)

Sunshine?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (58:09)

Nah, there we go. Sunshine.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:12)

Yeah,

 

just energetic, magnetic, calm, present. Of course I have my wobbles, I am no, by no means perfect, ask my kids. But I think it’s just I have, yeah, grounded sense of who I am and the love I have for myself now, what’s and all.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (58:30)

Yeah, beautiful. Tess, thank you again for sharing. I’m going to put the links to the Awake Academy into the show notes. And will that take them through to a toolkit page as well, if they click onto that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:47)

Yeah, please do. We’ve got a seven day self care, which you can do for free. We’ve got a soul map. If you have no idea where to begin, that’s a good place to start. It’ll tell you where you know who you are and where you need to go. Or we’ve got monthly coaching with the awake collective because people don’t want to do this stuff alone. Or if you’re really up for it, bring us into your business and let Lane and I show you how you can have sustained well-being and happy, healthy people.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (59:16)

Yeah, beautiful ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (59:18)

Can

 

I credit you for something? I just want to honour you for holding space in this emotion that has come up for me today. You too are going through your own challenges and the story resonates back and perhaps that’s why I’ve been so raw and open and honest and you’ve asked such beautiful questions that have given me the gift of reflection. And I know for all the women out there that listen to your podcast and men,

 

is that we’re all looking to find a better way through and an easier way. And thank you for that gift, for allowing me to explore that alongside you as you explore your trauma and pain as well, because there is a better way.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (1:00:02)

Now you’ve made me emotional. Thank you, Tess. That’s beautiful. I’ve spent 30 years in the executive search space interviewing people and learning their stories. I’ve spent two years interviewing on the power of women, and I have learned more about myself in those two years than I learned in the previous 30. So you are spot on.

 

So to Tessa’s point, there are going to be people within your network who would really benefit from listening to a conversation like this. And it might bring up the uncomfortable and it might bring up the emotion, but you know what? It takes that to actually have that inflection point and really face into what’s not working. that simple question that I said, you

 

Are you enjoying life? And if the answer is, if you hesitate, then you’ve got to ask yourself why.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (1:01:06)

Yeah, we’re all just humans walking each other home.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (1:01:10)

That’s exactly right. Thank you Tess. Until next time.

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:02)

Tess, when you hear the words power of women and reflecting on your own experiences, what comes to mind?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:09)

⁓

 

Di, I love that you asked this question and I just turned 40 on the weekend and I you very much. I’ve been thinking about my word and what will it be for the next decade and I anchored on power, believe it or not, and I anchored on that because for me it’s not power I can rule the world, it’s a deep embodiment of who I am.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:16)

Happy birthday!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:38)

And knowing that I’ve done the work, that I’ve found my soul, my dark spots, my triggers, I mean, they’re always unfolding. But the power in that when you know yourself, when you start to love yourself again, when you trust in yourself, which I’ve never had that before, and it’s been a long process for me to get there. So I would say it’s like a power for me is a silent self-trust.

 

and a belief in myself that can ride the waves, can ride the storms, and is a really grounded, beautiful force, which is the divine feminine. And so that to me is the true embodiment of power now for me. So bring on power, hey?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:26)

Yay. Brilliant. So what happens when the very qualities that built your success, your drive, your identity, your refusal to stop are actually the same qualities that almost break you? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And if you’re joining us for the first time, what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements

 

of women from all walks of life. And this conversation is about pushing through and ignoring some of the signs. And that is a deeply personal conversation for me because I started the beginning of this year, in fact, New Year’s Day, with having a sign, not quite so sure, deciding to listen to it and spent three days.

 

in a hospital in Melbourne in Australia with a suspected heart attack. Now I am absolutely thrilled to say that it didn’t end up being the case, but what it was was the fact that I had pushed too hard and literally run myself into the ground. So to put some more context to this, I am joined today by Tess Brower, mental and emotional fitness expert, co-founder of Awake Academy with Lane Beachley.

 

And Tess is the former head of brand partnerships at Virgin Australia. And she’s a woman who rebuilt her life after a life-changing spinal and brain injury. Tess was a high performer in the corporate world. There were big deals, big responsibilities, big identity. Then a skiing accident at 32 changed everything. A spinal injury, Guillain-Barre diagnosis, multiple hospital. ⁓

 

visits, a body that wouldn’t cooperate, and a nervous system in overload. So in a conversation today, we’re going to explore how to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger when your identity fractures. Because the reality is for any of us, life can change in a blink of an eye. Tess Brower, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (03:51)

Thank you, Di. When you hear those words being read about you, I’m instantly emotional. I’m instantly back there. Someone said to me the other day, it was actually one of my friends, are you okay? You’re talking about it a lot. And I feel like that’s the true sense of power is, is knowing that it, that trauma and that pain still sits within and you can work through it and you’re comfortable sitting in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:21)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (04:22)

I spent so long ignoring myself, my feelings and my emotions and passing them off as, you know, well, there’s a war going on. Who am I to experience pain? but yeah, thank you for a beautiful intro, but yeah, know that it’s still hard hearing that because I still am in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:40)

So all of that emotion is going to come through in our conversation today, Tess. And if there is at any point where you want to call a break, you call a break. Thank Because I get it. Yeah. So could we go back, take us back to the skiing accident? What happened? And more importantly, what happened in the days and the weeks after you realized this wasn’t something you could just ignore and push through?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (05:09)

The truth is, is I knew instantly. So I just moved over to Switzerland and I was like first week, new job, skiing day and went up a black run with the team because that’s what you do when you’re a high performance woman who’s out to impress everyone. And a skier went past me. It was a very, very foggy, like white out up there. And I went straight into the side of a ⁓

 

Ice wall because he had to come down the mountain through And Yeah, I lost both my skis slammed headfirst into the ice wall lost the lost both the skis and just I remember going blank and I remember pins and needles shot through my body and then I just the adrenaline just searched and I just got up laughing trying to kind of overcome what was happening in my in myself and

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:40)

because you had no perspective you couldn’t read the ground

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:06)

Deep down I knew, I remember thinking, you’ve done something here. But I had to carry on. I had to do what I’ve always done. I don’t want to be the person that’s in shame or the person that’s the troubled one. I just wanted to click back in and keep going. And I did. And I got off the mountain pretty quickly. I just needed to get away cracking headache and all I wanted to do was go to sleep. And it’s not like me to miss a party day.

 

⁓ And I didn’t want to go to the after party. I just needed to go home and go to sleep now when your identity is wrapped up in your work and For context I had just sold out everything and moved to overseas so

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:51)

So this was a permanent move to Europe?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:57)

I’d signed over my residency to Australia. I was now residing in Switzerland. So the mere thought that something was wrong with me and that I would need any sort of form of medical treatment just wasn’t even a concept to me. So I did what I have always done is I carried on. And that looked like for me is pins and needles up and down my hand, loss of feeling in my shoes.

 

I got in my feet, so I got my mum to send over shoes that I loved in Australia because I felt like I had more feeling in my feet in them.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:33)

So you’re already looking for band-aids

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (07:38)

And

 

there was a pivotal moment where I was swimming in Lake Geneva and I was diving through the water and I totally lost feeling in my legs. I remember swimming and I remember thinking, I am going to drown because it’s quite, there’s quite a rapid that goes down there. I’m like, everything in me was get to the edge of this jetty.

 

And I got there and I was holding onto the jetty and I remember thinking, like, if you don’t get up, you’re gonna drown. And like with every ounce of my body, I just pushed myself up and I laid there almost like, you know, when you see a seal flop themselves up onto a jetty and they’re like…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:21)

Yeah, legs working

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:23)

legs weren’t working and I was just thinking.

 

And so I do what most normal people do is you get out your phone and you Google your symptoms.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:34)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:36)

And it suggested that I had multiple sclerosis, which I thought, well, I can deal with that. Now, if you’re someone who has that, I’m terribly sorry for downplaying that. But in my head, it was the easier thing to capture in my brain because it was something that I could, it was a long term issue that I could deal with when I got back to Australia, you know, when I went back there another time, because I just, didn’t know how to deal with that medical system either.

 

second link like obviously I didn’t even speak French and it was so there was a series of these moments die that were just like I look back on myself and I’m like what were you ignoring I was wetting my pants at work and just going to the shops and buying new ones

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:20)

And that was the spinal injury pressing on nerves.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:24)

messing on my nerves and what was happening was because my spinal cord was bruised, compressed and swelling, I was going into spinal shock and I didn’t realize it. And people can do incredible things with spinal cord injury and not know about it. And they can still, you can still experiencing loss of feeling in hands and all of that. They’re quite like in quote unquote normal experiences as you know, with your back.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:49)

I do.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:50)

that was spinal shock and then your body’s starting to shut down and and that’s when I went to hospital because I just thought I can’t deal with this any longer and I said to them I hit my head they ignored that and they sent me home with an anxiety tablet. Fortunately I was sent straight back to hospital and the next morning for an MRI and at that point they just said look you’re have to be an inpatient because we’ve got to work out what’s wrong with you there’s something going on so.

 

lumbar punctures, being electrocuted, like actually multiple lumbar punctures which is like possibly

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:25)

Very

 

painful. haven’t had one but I’ve witnessed a family member having it and it was unforgettable.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (10:35)

Yeah, it’s a pain that you can’t explain. And I say this with grace to myself at this moment, but I still didn’t call home. I still didn’t call my mom or my family. Shame. Total shame. How could I have ignored my body? How have I gotten to this point? And I was getting really bad. Like I remember my speech

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:02)

How long is it now since the accident? of Okay. Yes. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:04)

Come on.

 

aggressively getting worse. And

 

then I was an hour away, they decided that I had Guillain-Barré disease, which is sort of like a category that they put me in and thought that’s what you’ve got and you’re an hour away from getting a blood transfusion, it’s time you call home. But we want to do one more MRI to completely make sure that you’re all right. And I went down into the MRI machine and I think it was like my third one because they put dye through me and all of those sorts of potes and prods.

 

And the radiologist in broken English said to me, you hit your head, you hit your head. And I said, yes, like that’s what I’ve been saying. Like I know that that’s when my body changed. You know, that moment, right? It wasn’t dramatic at the time, but I knew that that was the

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:51)

aggressive from there. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:54)

And because I was fit and like I just did not have anything like that before that moment. And I said, yeah, I hit my head and he said, you have a spinal cord injury. And I just went bang. And yet the penny dropped and they gave my mom 24 hours to get over to Switzerland. I had to call her and say, mom, I’m okay. But yeah, I’m and

 

Yeah, she got over there and it was one of the most heartbreaking moments ever is seeing my mum walk into the hospital and her daughter is there broken and quite frightened really.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:35)

As was she.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:37)

But I didn’t grasp the high percentage of people who have this surgery. Well, not high, but it’s low risk, but it’s still a high number.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:45)

Anything

 

to do with your spine is scary. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:49)

I

 

didn’t realise the risk that you could actually, like it’s millimetres and my spinal surgeon said to me, you know, you’re lucky, you’re very lucky, I’ve seen scans like this and people are totally paralysed. And so yeah, I went into surgery and what I thought was going to be an eight week surgery turned out to be, I went back, I had the surgery, stayed in hospital for two weeks, went back to Australia to recover, which I thought would be eight weeks.

 

I thought that’s okay, I can get back to work. Because again, that’s all I thought about was just getting back, getting back. And I was back at the hospital, I was an outpatient at Royal North Shore Hospital in Northern Sydney, which has got one of the best spinal wards in Australia there. And they, I went in for just a routine.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:37)

and

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (13:43)

meeting I guess with my spinal surgeon and the physiotherapist and like my whole dream team and they just said you need to sit down and we’ve given you, I had another MRI and they said your spine is swelling and the surgery hasn’t worked and you’re have to go have another surgery again. And again that’s when the world shuts down on you and you fall apart because I mean for someone who has

 

wanted to be a high flyer and climb the corporate ladder and have all of this identity, I knew that that would be it. There would be no job, no home, no clothes, no money, nothing. It was all gone.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:21)

You couldn’t see beyond it at that point. was, it was, it was like, we’re done here.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (14:27)

Yeah, that was it. it was like, I truly like there were so many moments where I didn’t realize how serious it was. So even after the surgery, like the second surgery, and just before I went in, it was like 10, maybe 8, 8pm at night, something like that. And my surgeon got called in and he said, Look, I’ve been operating all day, my team are really tired, I’m not going to operate with there’s only one surgery.

 

ward open and I’m not going to do this at night if you don’t absolutely need it.” He said, do you understand? And I said, yeah, I understand. He goes, it’s going to be uncomfortable for you, but we have, like, I have to make sure that your health is number one. And so I went down for the MRI and I came back out and like your worst fears in that moment are realized when you said we’re opening up the surgery, you’re going in tonight.

 

So it was sort

 

of a bit like that, like a snowball that just got worse and worse and worse as time went on. And even more dramatically, like I was getting prepped for surgery and a heart attack came in. So I hope that person survives so badly, but it meant I was then left told that they couldn’t wait, rushed in for surgery only to be pulled out. And then I had to wait for the next slot.

 

which was another 24 hours later because there was another surgery planned. So it was just insane die. then I went very

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:54)

frightening. mean very, very frightening because you don’t know what the prognosis is at the end.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (16:01)

And you can retrospectively look back on these things. And I remember waking up in the spinal ward and them saying, it’s not two weeks here. You’re going to go, you’re like, we’ve got to get you recovered. And then you’re going to ride. And I said, what’s ride? Like it’s a, it’s one of Australia’s best rehab hospitals and you’ll be there for three months. And I just thought, am I living life?

 

Is this me? Is this what I’ve worked so hard to be?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:34)

And I had nowhere near the result, albeit it was a ski accident, but it was in my childhood that came back to haunt me in 2021, which put me in hospital during COVID and put me in hospital for two weeks. And I came out and I couldn’t walk without holding on to my husband’s arm and I’d gone in super fit.

 

And I was at a point in my life where I was going to be fabulous as I approached 60. And I couldn’t walk and I can remember it was late September and I said, I’m going to be back to walking 10 Ks by the December. And I was nowhere near it. And that’s when I was like, I need to take some drastic steps. But I have a, some understanding of what happens when

 

everything suddenly is turned on its head and the simple things in life that we take for granted that are wrapped up in our health and wellbeing suddenly are thrown out and we’re staring down the barrel of an alternative universe that doesn’t look so great. Frightening isn’t it?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (17:53)

Frightening, totally frightening.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:57)

So do you know how much of your identity was wrapped up in Tess Brower, the corporate executive?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:06)

Well, at that point it was Tess Maroney and it was all of it. Every single part of my identity was made up of my work and we laugh about it, but Lane Beachley’s husband is Kurt Pangeli from InXS and he’s, I mean his phone is Tess from Virgin. In fact, sometimes I’ll still have, I’ll email someone and I’ll say, Hey, it’s Tess from Virgin. you remember? Like, cause I still build this like absolute identity that’s wrapped around

 

what you do not who you are and I never went like my mum was a very and is still a very grounded spiritual person but you don’t really want to hear it from mum and I didn’t like

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:37)

Mmm.

 

No,

 

anything that close to home doesn’t land unfortunately.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:53)

Yeah, but I realized like I had done like high performance leadership courses and all of those sorts of stuff, but that’s just training you to be a better performer and not a better human. And so I was just, I was lost that if I wasn’t performing, who was I?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:11)

Yeah, if I wasn’t Tess from Virgin, who was I?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (19:14)

If

 

I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something or being invited somewhere, who am I? And a lot of my friends were getting married, engaged, pregnant, second baby, like creating these truly beautiful lives. And that was the gaping hole in mine, was I had no one to hug at night. I had no one.

 

to hold me up out of the shower when I couldn’t walk. Like had my mom and my family of course, but it even accentuated that whole fact that, wow, I’ve given everything to work and now I don’t need that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:00)

Yeah, so can you share with us, and I appreciate this is an emotional question, but can you share with us how that changed or impacted your sense of self? Can you take yourself back and describe what that actually felt like?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:17)

Yeah, I mean like it felt like I was alone in life. No one will ever understand the pain that I’m going through. Now in a ward of 24 beds I was the only walker in a spinal ward. So I was alone there too. I had so much guilt. Survivors guilt.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:40)

because the person in the bed next door couldn’t walk.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:44)

Sorry, I tried to check myself out two or three times and give my bed to someone else. And that is true test across my whole life. will give the shirt off my back to anyone apart from myself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:58)

So you felt like an imposter being in the room? I relate to that. I felt like an imposter when I was in the heart ward at Christmas time because I was sitting up feeling great and the girl in the bed next door had had a pacemaker and the woman across from me wasn’t in a great way. So I get that feeling, but we’re mad. We need to listen.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (21:00)

Totally.

 

We’re mad. And it was the surgeon that said, if you don’t listen to yourself, if you don’t listen to us, and if you don’t put the work in when you’re here, it will be 10 times worse when you get out. And you are here because you need to be here. You’re showing some really strong signs of ⁓ permanent damage. And so this is the time.

 

So then that was a bit easier because I thought, okay, well I’m going to lock in, I know how to perform, I know how to drive myself. So I sort of had like this mental switch. Plus I had two guys that I was in hospital with called Alex and Harrison, who I became like their big sister to, and I devoted every hour, spare hour I had to looking after them. So rehab,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:06)

So can I just stop you there for a moment? How much of that was about compassionate tests or was that test trying to find a role to fulfill because you had challenged your own identity as it was previously?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:26)

wonderful question die and the truth is it’s both. That’s the wonderful thing about identity right? It can be two things at the same time. It came from compassion, it came from my heart and I still like love and care for those boys now.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:36)

Yep.

 

that came from need as well.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:52)

Yeah, it came from purpose. It came from feeling useful again. Because if I just was sitting in woe is me, my life is, am I allowed to swear?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:02)

Yeah,

 

of course you can. Fucked!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (23:04)

Then I realized that there was tiny things that I could do. could semi use my hands at this point. I could help them Alex clean his teeth. So it just became it just became these little micro moments where I was stacking myself onto these like I could be helpful. I wasn’t like it’s like when they say whenever you think your worst day is is on there’s something even worse that you could be dealing with. So make the most of it. So I just applied that grit.

 

and that resilience to where I was. So I ended up going from just doing one, like helping Alex eat an apple, to then I started running cooking classes for everyone and I’d find out different ways that you could tie a mixer to someone’s hand who had a paralysed hand so that they could cook muffins. So it started becoming part of my therapy and my joy and my light that like I was useful.

 

even in my most useless form.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:06)

Yeah.

 

So when, at what point did you hit that, if I can’t perform, who am I? To then saying, okay, I can now turn this into purpose to help each other. long into your stay were you before that started?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:27)

It was pretty early on and I remember it. I was lying in bed and the clock on my wall was ticking and driving me insane. I mean hospital bed is pretty dire. Those curtains do not make you feel any better about your

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:47)

self. No they don’t.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:49)

And I popped next door to Alex and I said, is that clock annoying you? He said, I just can’t, I just don’t know what to do about it. So I took it down and I took the batteries out.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:02)

Okay, so that prompts my next question because how different does surrendering to your circumstances to be able to move forward differ to actually giving up? What’s the difference there? Because you certainly didn’t give up. You were still being true to yourself even in

 

in saying, I can solve that issue with the and clock.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (25:35)

Yeah, I feel like it just comes from everything I’ve been through and the journey that I’ve been on and that, like to me that is the best thing you can ever do is help someone and to be there for others and to be of service. I knew that to be true throughout my whole life but I didn’t feel that I was worthy of that.

 

or that I had enough to give in terms like I always sort of equated that to be a monetary value. When I was in hospital, it really turned into being my true meaning and purpose at that time was to be there to help everyone around me and to help those boys. And that, and we know this now by all the science, is when you help someone else, really what you’re doing is you’re helping yourself.

 

I didn’t understand the importance of that for my healing journey until I was out and learning about the science of positive psychology and wellbeing. I didn’t realise that it was actually rewiring my brain to feel like to have a mission and vision and purpose is one of the greatest. You need that, you need meaning in your life no matter what it is. And yeah, it was just those micro moments where you put your hand up and say, I can do that. I can help.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:00)

Yep.

 

Yep. And it’s the same in starting power of women. I’m 62. I could retire or I could do something meaningful. Yeah. I’m going to do something meaningful.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (27:15)

Yeah.

 

And thank God you did. Thank God you did. And like it was, there was so many incredible moments in that hospital where like everyone has to leave by 11 o’clock PM. It was actually 9 PM, but it got stretched. And so there’s all of these scary hours of people being alone. But then you wake up at 5 AM in the morning and it’s the same noise, the same sound and the same breakfast for brought to you every day. And the boys hated it.

 

It was the same bacon, eggs, wheat bix and that smell was the triggering thing. Groundhog Day. So I would get up at five o’clock and take the breakfast out of their room. They didn’t have that and that would get me up. So it was like, when I say this just stacked, I was like, okay, I’m going to use this. So that became my superpower. But when I got out die and I lost that, that is when I hit.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:46)

Groundhog Day

 

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (28:10)

the most absolute rock bottom I’ve

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:12)

ever felt. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to move from breakdown to rebuild. you’re loving the Power of Women podcast be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

I’m talking with Tess Brower, who for years lived by the mantra, push through, power on, and prove yourself. However, Tess faced into a defining moment when her nervous system was burnt out, her mind was in overdrive, and quite frankly, the wheels simply began to fall off. So in this part of our conversation, we move from breakdown to rebuild, what Tess calls mental fitness.

 

So Tess, the defining moment and the tipping point where you stop fighting and what was, you recognized you needed to reset, that’s where we’re gonna get into this part about mental fitness. But when did you have that moment of going, okay, I’ve got to acknowledge what’s happened and I now need to.

 

take a different approach to what my life looks like. What was the first steps in that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (29:38)

Well, I had a wonderful friend called Lane Beachley. We had met when I was a virgin and like I met a lot of people of all different shape, sizes, importance, all the rest of it. But Lane and I just clicked when we met each other and she came to visit me in hospital and she brought a book in called My Dream Life. And I thought this lady is absolutely out of her fucking mind. I’m in a spinal ward.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:06)

This is not my dream life.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (30:08)

Yeah,

 

yeah, but there wasn’t part of me, and I do feel like this was the resilience in me, was I remember looking at a white wall for so long just staring at a ceiling in a neck brace thinking, well, I guess I get to redraw my life. Like I get to, it’s a white canvas. So it put a seed in me. And then when I got out of hospital, like when I say it really hit the fan, like shit really hit the fan for me, it was more like the floor opened up.

 

In hospital, in rehab, you have a schedule every day, which is hour by hour mapped out and you’re working to use your body again. Not so much mentally. I was put on a lot of medication to help me. So anti-anxiety, anti-depression. I was getting like my, had complex PTSD, so I was getting really big flashes and terrors at night. So I was

 

a little bit sedated as well. And so when I got out of hospital, I was 33 living in my bedroom with my parents and I just found myself on the floor just like crying because I’d lost my job, my home, my money. I didn’t even have any clothes at that point. I had a couple of bond sets from and came up because that was just

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:26)

because everything was still back overseas.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (31:28)

everything

 

was still back overseas and I really didn’t care. Like I just was like, I don’t care. I’ve got clothes on my back and that’ll do. I couldn’t even imagine wearing normal clothes at that point. And I was just, I wrote one thing in that book and that was start a business. But I thought, how the hell are you going to do that when you, you’d like, you’ve been a corporate girl your whole life, which is safe. And

 

Like could never work a normal job again because I can’t, I now am packaged up as damaged goods in my head. And I remember coming home from a pretty traumatic appointment and it was all to do with my hands to help them work again. And the lady had grabbed me and I just remember looking at her thinking like, you don’t understand what’s wrong with me. Don’t touch me. And that friction was like, is this who I want to be?

 

Do I really want to be that woman? And I got home and I was bawling my eyes out thinking my life is totally fucked. And that was rock bottom. And then I started imagining ways that I could quietly sleep off this beautiful earth. And yeah, that really broke me. And I was, I remember looking out at the headland one day watching the sunrise, just thinking, who do I want to be? You’ve got the choice.

 

I saw a beautiful whale pop up and I just thought you’ve got to do this and I had realized that the story I’ve been telling myself was I’m broken and I’m unlovable and if I keep on telling myself that I will be broken and I will be unlovable So I quick I did a life audit and I saw that what what was that? What was the story? I was just subscribing to was I’m broken. I’m unlovable

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:11)

Yeah.

 

How did you actually do the audit? Was that just in your mind or was that pen to paper?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:24)

Yeah,

 

yeah had no framework. I was doing it on my own and

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:31)

And what were the key things you wrote down in that audit? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:34)

am

 

broken, I’m unlovable, like who is who am I working with, who’s supporting this? Now at the same time I was back at Lane Beechley’s house and I was there with Holly Ransom who you’ll know she’s a power woman herself and at Lane’s house with Kirk Bengeli walking around and their house is like a huge trophy room to be honest and I had my discharge papers of everything that was wrong with me I even published it in our book and Lane

 

I gave it to Holly and Holly read it and gave me a big hug and she’d been in hospital with me and then I gave it to Lane and she read it and she goes, poof! She said, well if you believe all of this bullshit then your life will be fucked. I just want, and if I could rip it up I would.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:16)

There’s the blunt reality check you needed.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:20)

That’s right, love and compassion. But the truth is, when, you call someone out, and this is what I’ve learned about myself in that moment, have the courage and the care to hold them up after. So not,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:34)

You need to know how much they can hear and how much you can be.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:37)

⁓

 

Her lifeline to me was, I have a course that I’m doing by myself in two weeks, which is like her own workshop. I haven’t sold any tickets, like it’s not online yet and I need help designing the course and you’re going to help me do it. And there’s that moment of yes, right? Like take the clock down, take out the batteries. This was saying yes to myself or helping myself. So I just said yes.

 

But I said I can’t work over than an hour, I don’t have any, like I had nothing and she said just go for it. So that was a turning point. I looked at my life and I’m like, what is serving me and what is sabotaging me? And what was serving me was the story of unbroken and ununlovable because I got support, people were behind me, but was it really serving me? No.

 

It would keep me stuck. So I changed my story and in that I went, okay, well what do I need? So I went from 15 therapists down to two and I got one new one and I stayed with an old one and she was really pushing me to go into my pain. You have been running from pain your whole life through drinking, through partying, through clothes, through food, like through busyness, through performance. Like these were all my band aids. And when you’ve lost them all, it becomes

 

very discomf, like the discomfort in that is life changing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:04)

Do you ever think this accident needed to happen? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:07)

Yes,

 

yes, yes of course it did and if it wasn’t that it would be something else and I think that’s the beautiful thing about the universe is it gives us exactly what we need to wake up and that’s why we call it the awake academy because it was my awakening and if I look back my life I was getting lots of these stones thrown at me I just wasn’t willing to listen yeah I feel like life just then it gets louder

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:19)

Yeah.

 

Yep, and the stones get a little bit more… Bigger? A little bit bigger, I guess.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:40)

Was your face like that? Do you see yours?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:42)

I do and I guess just by the virtue of being older and I, but I mean I’ve had some oh shit moments. mean in 1999 I developed alopecia totalis. I lost all of my hair. I was completely bald. I was the height of my corporate powers and I’m wearing a bandana and a corporate suit and it’s like who the fuck am I now?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:10)

Yeah

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:11)

But I managed to get headhunted into a GM role in that state. I validated to myself that I could still function, I still had worth. I recognized that I could talk about my plight and talk to children in the schoolyard because children with alopecia in the schoolyard is a pretty tough place to be because you get bullied and teased and taunted. And a bit like you, Tess, of…

 

Okay, if I put some purpose behind what I’m experiencing and use that to help others, then that is going to help me through. it’s exactly the same. Yeah. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:55)

exactly same pain to purpose.

 

I think the learning point for me was the fight of the cost of fighting the reality I was in like as in trying to downplay it or ignore it or just trying to like I was like a duck trying to swim with it. ⁓ That was more painful than dealing with it. I just couldn’t see it at the time and learning that neuroscience behind how my brain

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:14)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:24)

was I could rewire my brain at any time and I started doing Dr Joe Dispenza meditations morning, noon and night and I was just obsessed with trying to rewire my brain and trying to calm it down because it was just in everything was a threat.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:43)

Yeah heightened anxiety. So let’s delve into ⁓ this mental fitness bit. What’s the difference between pure grit and toughness that drove you to push through? mean is grit and toughness the same thing?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:46)

Literally.

 

I would say so. mean, they’re pretty loaded words, grit and toughness. I think we overplay resilience to be pushed through, get up, keep going. I think resilience has a fragility to it where you can sit with it and you learn to process it and you rewire your story and you get help and that is resilience.

 

If we turn that into, you’re so tough, you just get up and go, that’s when it becomes almost like a badge of honor. We’ve overdone it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:39)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And, and we use that line as a badge of honor. That’s that’s the madness of it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (39:46)

Yeah, and I think that’s where mental fitness gets a bit clouded or positive psychology and well-being or is that you have to push through, develop grit, become resilient. That’s not what it is. It’s understanding the truth of what’s going on within, the root cause, because as you know, emotional pain is one of the biggest causes of stress, injury.

 

disease, like dis-ease in your body, because the body would rather feel physical pain than emotional pain. And we’re very good at going to the gym, working on our bodies, looking great. But where have we put in mental fitness where we can start to use grit as just getting up and going for a walk instead of going for a run? that, you know, there, there’s that stuff. That is the type of language

 

that I love challenging people on. Not in combat, but just what are you associating grit with?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (40:52)

Yeah, that’s interesting. So I know personally resilience, and you’ve touched on it, but resilience can tip into denial. can become your enemy. How do you now define not taking no for an answer in a healthy way without losing that strength of character that is you?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:16)

Yeah, it’s funny, my husband said in his speech that Tess doesn’t take no for an answer, she sees it as a roundabout.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:28)

It’s got a softer landing than just not techno for an hour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:32)

Yeah, and I think like the person that I needed to say no to, to be perfectly honest, was myself. And it wasn’t, and maybe that’s the roundabout theory in real life is like pushing through grit, like force. Like I started to apply that mindset. So the mindset that I knew of high performance woman getting shit done, ticking all the right boxes to healing.

 

because your brain can just brings you back to what you’ve always known. So I was trying to do it all, trying to go to every appointment. So was burning myself out in healing. So when I learned what true self love was and what mental fitness and emotional fitness was, was actually saying, no, not now to myself. Like you don’t need to do it all. You need to learn to sit in your pain and discomfort. And then I became aware of that.

 

So that’s when the roundabout came in and it’s like, well, you can’t do all of it, but what’s the something? Like, what would be different about today if you just actually took care of your soul? And that to me was having gentler mornings, not rushing it. And that day is how I rebuilt my life.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:52)

Nah, there we go, because it’s going to ask you because I’ve visited Burnout on the podcast on a number of conversations over the last two years and had a terrific conversation, which if anybody listening hasn’t already listened to it with Shanna Kennedy, who was a high performance coach and then burnt out. The difference in this conversation.

 

⁓ is you more than burnt out, you actually broke you, what you, you physically broke. And that’s the, that’s the different bit. So could we get practical at this point in the conversation and for the, for the power of women community for, for a woman navigating a health set back, a career disruption, an identity shift that comes from something.

 

not going to plan and the wheels falling off. What are the non-negotiables in rebuilding that toolkit?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (43:55)

Okay, Di. So, first of all, I realised that everything comes from your intentions. So not your expectations, your intentions of who you are and how you want to show up in the world. Now, I knew I wasn’t going to be healthy, strong, all of those words didn’t exist for me. It was, I just want to be sunshine. So I woke up every day and I just made sure I watched the sunrise, every day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:58)

I realized.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (44:23)

What would sunshine do? Sunshine can weather all storms, it radiates from within and it just feels good to be around. So I wanted to feel good from within. So if I started there, my day actually became, what can I do to keep my sunshine? Well, I needed to rest, I needed to look after myself. So I would say to everyone, start your day with an intention and your energy will flow from that.

 

energetic beings and we need to be our brains need to tell our bodies what mindset we need that day. It’s not woo woo, it’s neuroscience now. So that would be my number one tip. The side note on that, I met my husband a year later from leaving hospital and the first words he said to me was I am sunshine. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:12)

And because you had become somebody people wanted to be around.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:16)

Right. And normally I would have just put my head down and walked away. And yeah, a year later from that day, we were engaged. We got married. We had a baby and having that intent really changed my life. Then I would, and this is something I’ve incorporated because I am entering into perimenopause and I do need to be really conscious of how I feel my body and your brain and your body will fuel on what you feed it. And that includes negative self-talk is as important.

 

to become aware of and to close down as it is for my morning coffee.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:49)

Yeah, it’s true. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:51)

So I have a big glass of water with some cracked sea salt to rehydrate my body. And when I do that, I’m drinking it saying, today’s gonna be a great day, show me how good it’s gonna get. And I just have this quiet solitude in my moment. Now, if you’re already doing that, I highly recommend scraping your tongue first thing and cleaning your teeth before you have a drink of water, because then you’re not drinking back down the toxins. That was a game changer.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:19)

Yeah, there you go. Not everybody has a tongue scraper in their bathroom, but they should.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:26)

Yeah.

 

We just had Dr. Stacey Sims on our podcast, A Wake Up Call, and she introduced me to a protein coffee. I fasted a lot to help my body heal. And now I’m entering into a season in my life. really need it’s about sustained energy and sustained wellbeing. me. Protein coffee. So you want to have, we don’t want to be in survival mode from the moment we wake up. So fasting works against our hormones.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:44)

about a protein coffee that’s

 

Yeah,

 

because that’s fight or flight. Fight or flight? Yeah, cortisol.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:59)

can’t wake up with an egg. ⁓ I like to eat

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:04)

I meet my egg at about 11 a.m.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:08)

I just make a coffee and put two scoops of protein in, mix it up and it is delicious and I have really noticed a difference in my energy throughout the day because of

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:18)

Yeah, because you’ve kept yourself at a better level. Yeah. But it’s protein start.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah,

 

scheduling breaks. So I look at a lot. I used to look at my diary and say, OK, what needs my attention today? And now I look at it. Where can I build in breaks today? Where am I resting and recovering? Because burnout is a classic. You’re climbing a mountain. You don’t come down again. You just climb the other ones. You’re constantly on peak state. And we we think of that as like maybe a project or a moment in time. But really, if we start looking at that in our day.

 

you start to think, okay, well, how can I build in five minutes here, 90 seconds there, a sunshine break over lunch with no tech, closing my eyes, and start to become aware of what your body and your mind are saying to you. And in those moments of rest, you’re really giving your body time to just close down, decompress, and then you come back with more energy, more clarity, more focus, and at the end of the day,

 

You’re not absolutely late.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:22)

Fucked up. So true. None of these are hard to do. They’re all free. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:31)

They are all free. just need the reminder that this stuff works. I feel like it’s like, it’s so easy to say someone take this pill and it will work. then you.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:43)

But all that’s doing, none of that’s addressing the reason you needed the pill. That’s why I hate that approach.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:49)

Yeah, but ⁓ we did create a Peel Lane and I actually because all of us are experiencing brain fog.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:57)

Both

 

of you might be, yeah, in the M word.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:01)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we worked with a chemist actually, and it’s called wake up. So it’s for those days where you really need to be on focus. That aside, what is so important for me now is I know that emotions last in your body for 90 seconds. Anything other than that. it’s energy in motion is emotion. Anything other than that 90 seconds is the story you wrap around it. So for example,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:09)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:29)

email or a phone call comes through and you feel that rage you don’t deal with it you pick up your phone and or you talk to a colleague or someone else and you start raging about it how dare this person you start blaming shaming you start the self-doubt and the chatter comes in

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:46)

The

 

second starts getting bigger and bigger. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:50)

Now it’s stored now it’s part of your memory now whenever that person sends or messages you your body instantly goes into fight-or-flight Now in the previous days we could just get up and run because it’s a saber-toothed tiger But you can’t do that when you’re making dinner. It’s ask you for the 18th time what’s for dinner and not offer to help Whatever that looks like whatever that rage moment looks like for you So this is a non-negotiable for me is when I feel triggered

 

and it could be sadness, could be anger, could be even happiness is an emotional trigger, is to sit in it and breathe through it. And there’s a breath called the physiological sigh, which is two breaths in through your nose, like short and long, and then a really slow exhale through the nose. And that puts your body from out of fight or flight into your parasympathetic nervous system and calms you down instantly. And it is my absolute superpower and that is emotional.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (50:48)

Same. I learned that some time ago and I can completely change. And I’ll give you a real life example of that when I had my heart episode at New Year’s Day and I had to go in for an MRI and they said, your heart rate’s too high, we’re gonna have to give you a drug to bring it down. I said, don’t, I’ll do it through breath. And they said, no, we’ll need to give you a drug. I said, give me two minutes.

 

just give me two minutes and I had to really push back and in two minutes it was down below 50. They said, how did you do that? I said, breathing. Don’t give me the drug. So it absolutely worked.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:31)

Isn’t that amazing, Di, that you have the awareness to do that, but then you burnt yourself out and ended up…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (51:38)

⁓ I know, know, yeah, deeply intelligent and deeply flawed, both things can be right.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:45)

I think that’s what I’ve learned in this is having logical awareness of things is not the same as being in practice.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (51:53)

No it’s not. And I hear I listen to your story and I listen to other people’s story and then I go and work my ass off seven days a week and repeat it all over again. Why would

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:02)

Why?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:06)

That’s probably what I haven’t answered yet. think it’s ambition, but it might be more than that. No.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:08)

Yeah.

 

Mine was my self-worth. It should be love.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:15)

Yeah, well

 

those two things, ambition and self-worth, are wrapped together in my world and I’m sure they are in many of our listeners’ worlds too. So, we’re pulling that apart.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:31)

So that, just having the awareness of that dies like the biggest part. It’s like asking myself every day, I doing this because I need to feel loved? Because I’m not getting it from within and having the awareness is, then you say no to jobs that don’t light you up, that you’re doing it for.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:49)

Yeah. Why? Yeah. So Tess, can I ask you, are you stronger now than you were before the accident?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:01)

I’m softer, some would say I’m just as strong, but I’ve turned that strength into a gentle strength. And that’s been the biggest gift.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (53:18)

And that’s emotional to face into. Yeah it And you probably need to teach me that because the tough gritty facade is our armour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:30)

Yeah, and at what cost does that serve us or you? You know what? Anyone listening? And I know that sustained well-being because now I teach it and I’ve taught it to thousands of people and I watch it with Lane Beechley like she won a world title, two world titles in a state of love and freedom. It’s clear, it’s disciplined, it’s not

 

That level of strength doesn’t make you weak. But the other level of strength which is pushing you is like over questioning, pushing through, comparison, the what ifs, the I should, the could, the would.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (54:13)

I

 

need to get on the couch, seriously, I seriously need to take a dead-hunt myself.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (54:17)

And

 

they’re two totally different operating models. when you, if sustained mental fitness, sustained wellbeing is having those cracks warts and all, and just knowing that you are enough, just as you are, and that no amount of financial money will ever prove that too. So for what?

 

Because when you’re on your ass in your parents bedroom with no money, no car, no home, nothing, and you have to learn to love yourself just as you are, you just become softer.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (54:58)

Yeah, yeah, well Tess, that’s a very, very vulnerable conversation and I thank you for being prepared to share that. I’m going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions as we come to a close today.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:16)

Di, can I just close before you go into the wrap-up? The women listening and whether you’re a parent or not and I just want you to relate to this story. We had a lady who was a very high corporate achiever just like me but you know she I think she had three children and she did our course called On Your Streets and it was a one day live or we’ve got it online through the Awake Academy. Yeah. And

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (55:19)

Yeah, sure.

 

the academy.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:45)

We follow up with people a month later because we don’t want to just be a fry pan. you know when you walk, you don’t come to us and walk on hot coals and you’re liberated from life. It’s real grit, but with tool hits. And I saw her a month later and I said, how are going? She’s like, really good. And I’m working through some stuff and I’m just trying to be a more present mom. And that’s great. Like, you know, that for her, that was what she had realized she had left behind was her presence with her family and loved ones.

 

And that to me was a big wake up call. So I’m like, what is success? Like when you are too busy being busy, you miss the joy and the micro moments and the glimmers. And they’re the things that light you up that that’s what living is. It’s not just going on a holiday every few months. It really is the micro moments every day. And I was fortunate enough to see his beautiful soul another month later. So two months have passed and she gave me the biggest hug.

 

And she said to me, think I’ve found it. And I said, what is it? And she said, my kids said that I’m happier.

 

They said, what have you done, mum? You’re so much happier. You’re there with us. You’re fun, mum. And she was identified as being dictator, mum, because she was tired. And that to me, when we talk about pain to purpose, that is my why. Because I know you can still be powerful, but present and gentle and kind. Like you can still be all those things.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:16)

And I think there’s a simple question in that and look in the mirror and say, I enjoying life? I think it’s as simple as that. Okay, yeah. fire. Rapid fire, here we go. So one belief about success you no longer subscribe to.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

That money buys happiness and because of that output would equal worth so that you have to be doing more to being worthy and then then you get more money and then you’ll be happy.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:50)

A red flag high performers should never ignore.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:56)

chronic exhaustion marked as busyness.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:59)

Yes, and the strongest version of you looks like…

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:08)

Sunshine?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (58:09)

Nah, there we go. Sunshine.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:12)

Yeah,

 

just energetic, magnetic, calm, present. Of course I have my wobbles, I am no, by no means perfect, ask my kids. But I think it’s just I have, yeah, grounded sense of who I am and the love I have for myself now, what’s and all.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (58:30)

Yeah, beautiful. Tess, thank you again for sharing. I’m going to put the links to the Awake Academy into the show notes. And will that take them through to a toolkit page as well, if they click onto that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:47)

Yeah, please do. We’ve got a seven day self care, which you can do for free. We’ve got a soul map. If you have no idea where to begin, that’s a good place to start. It’ll tell you where you know who you are and where you need to go. Or we’ve got monthly coaching with the awake collective because people don’t want to do this stuff alone. Or if you’re really up for it, bring us into your business and let Lane and I show you how you can have sustained well-being and happy, healthy people.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (59:16)

Yeah, beautiful ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (59:18)

Can

 

I credit you for something? I just want to honour you for holding space in this emotion that has come up for me today. You too are going through your own challenges and the story resonates back and perhaps that’s why I’ve been so raw and open and honest and you’ve asked such beautiful questions that have given me the gift of reflection. And I know for all the women out there that listen to your podcast and men,

 

is that we’re all looking to find a better way through and an easier way. And thank you for that gift, for allowing me to explore that alongside you as you explore your trauma and pain as well, because there is a better way.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (1:00:02)

Now you’ve made me emotional. Thank you, Tess. That’s beautiful. I’ve spent 30 years in the executive search space interviewing people and learning their stories. I’ve spent two years interviewing on the power of women, and I have learned more about myself in those two years than I learned in the previous 30. So you are spot on.

 

So to Tessa’s point, there are going to be people within your network who would really benefit from listening to a conversation like this. And it might bring up the uncomfortable and it might bring up the emotion, but you know what? It takes that to actually have that inflection point and really face into what’s not working. that simple question that I said, you

 

Are you enjoying life? And if the answer is, if you hesitate, then you’ve got to ask yourself why.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (1:01:06)

Yeah, we’re all just humans walking each other home.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (1:01:10)

That’s exactly right. Thank you Tess. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

00:38 Tess’s Reflection on Power and Self-Trust

02:23 Personal Story: From Ski Accident to Medical Crisis

04:21 The Emotional Impact of Trauma and Recovery

05:09 The Moment of Realization and Acceptance

07:24 The Role of Identity in Healing

09:50 Medical Journey and Surprising Diagnoses

12:22 The Power of Support and Connection

16:28 Rehabilitation and Rebuilding Life

20:17 The Shift from Self-criticism to Self-love

24:27 Finding Purpose in Adversity

28:10 Moving from Breakdown to Rebuild

43:55 Practical Tools for Mental Fitness

50:48 Managing Emotions and Breathing Techniques

54:43 Redefining Strength and Success

58:47 Resources and Support for Healing

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Tess at:

Website http://awakeacademy.com.au/

Seven Day Self-Care Program  https://awakeacademy.com/self-care

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/tess-brouwer-7128aa54/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tesscbrouwer/?hl=en

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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Navigating AI and Making Bold Career Moves

Navigating AI and Making Bold Career Moves

by | Apr 13, 2026 | Career Change Over 50

I’m sure you already realise – AI isn’t coming. It’s here.

Across close to three decades in executive search and talent acquisition, Di Gillett has sat across the table from thousands of women. Capable, experienced, accomplished women, who talked themselves out of the move before they ever made it. Who underestimated, almost systematically, the very skills today’s market is beginning to reward above all others.

The market has now made its position clear. And what it is asking for is not what most women think it is asking for.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett sits down with Georgie Hubbard, recruiter, career strategist and founder of Pivoter, to unpack what AI really means for women at work.

No fear, just a conversation about strategy and what to do next. Georgie shares what the market values in 2026, why human skills are becoming career currency, and why waiting for confidence is costing women visibility.

If you’ve ever questioned your relevance in an AI-driven world this episode reframes the narrative and kicks fear to the curb.

 

➡️You’ll Hear :

Why courage comes before confidence

The three attributes the 2026 market is rewarding

The biggest misconception about AI and job loss

Why the career ladder has disappeared

How women can validate and articulate their real value

Where to start if upskilling feels overwhelming.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (00:02)

My biggest fear isn’t failing or not succeeding at something. It’s would I regret not doing this? And that fuels me more than anything else. I future cast and I go, 10 years on from now, would you regret not writing that book? 10 years on from now, would you regret not starting that business? And that gives me this sense of urgency to just think, screw it. I’m going to go for it. I’m going to give this a go and I’m going to start before I feel ready.

 

So for example, like when I’m about to go for something, I won’t just focus on all the things that could go wrong. And I think this is what lot of women do. Because I’ve spoken to a lot of women about this. We focus on all these things that could go really wrong, and that’s not a reason to do it. So I have this framework that I work through anytime I make a decision. I go, okay, what’s the worst case scenario? Because we’re going to think it regardless. And getting it out onto paper, out of our minds, we see it for what it is. Someone asked me the other day,

 

Georgie, how are doing all this? How are you running a recruitment company and a mentorship program, running events? I was like, AI. Good question. was like, do you want to… I said, literally, I sat down and I said to myself, what tasks take up my most time and how could AI help me do this better? How can it help me be more efficient? But I think what it’s going to do is I think we, instead of seeing ourselves as a job, we see ourselves as skills.

 

and how can we monetize those skills? So I think what it’s gonna do is it’s gonna create a new wave of female entrepreneurs. And the mindset I want women to have is, is not who, my job title’s not who I am.

 

Thank you so much for having me on today. I’m absolutely delighted to be on your podcast. And hopefully we get to talk about lots of things today. We get to talk about careers and how it’s going to, well, how AI and how the world’s going to look in the next five or 10 years, because it’s certainly going to look very different. And look, a real quick background, I guess, to me. I’ve been in recruitment now for the last 12 years. I moved over from the UK, 14 years ago with a rucksack.

 

fell in love with this country, made my own career pivot from beauty into tech recruitment, that’s a whole story in itself. For the last eight years, I ran my own business in recruitment and that’s been quite the journey building that. I’m a massive advocate for women and I want to see women thrive, especially in the age of AI. I also run a mentorship program and an event company called Sisterhood Club.

 

And I’ve also recently written a book called The Bold Move, Build Confidence and Reinvent Your Career in the Age of AI. And I also built an AI tool called Pivoter to help people make these career transitions and reinventions in the age of AI. So it’s a real quick snapshot about myself and my deep belief is that every single woman listening to this podcast has got incredible potential and we just need to have the courage to believe in ourselves because courage comes before.

 

confidence, not the other way around.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:11)

What bold career move is waiting for you? Maybe it’s the one you’ve talked yourself out of or convinced yourself that the timing just isn’t right. I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And today’s conversation expands that tapestry even

 

further because we’re delving into the bold moves women are making, the skills the market truly values, and how confidence, clarity and reinvention are becoming the real currencies in the future of work. And today we’re going to explore what it truly means to reinvent because you’ve already heard from Georgie Hubbard, she has reinvented her own career and done some incredible work in advocating and creating new businesses as an entrepreneur.

 

And we’re going to talk about what it takes to reposition your career in the age defined by AI, accelerated change and unprecedented opportunity. And Georgie is going to help me do that because she brings more than decade in tech recruitment. I bring probably 30 years. So there’s the age differentiation today in executive search. And Georgie is also the author of the bold move, build career confidence and reinvent

 

your career in the age of AI. And Georgie’s had hundreds of conversations also on her own podcast, Career Confidence Podcast, which gives her a unique vantage point in the patterns, behaviors, and beliefs that are shaping women’s careers today. Georgie Hubbard, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (05:04)

Thank you

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:07)

Like I have, you have sat across the table and conducted thousands of interviews with candidates and listened to the needs of hiring leaders. Why do you believe so many highly capable women hesitate to make bold moves?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (05:25)

I love this question. So I really listen for patterns, when I’m on conversations, on calls, speaking to women on the podcast or just having conversations with random women on the street like I’ve been doing. And I think the key pattern that I’ve kind of put it down to from those that really struggle in their careers and those that go on to thrive, get promoted, do really well, the ones that go on to have a lot of success,

 

They have this ability to understand that first they have to have that belief in themselves. They have to have that courage. And I think that this is the key piece is like, hear a lot of women say, I’ve got to wait till I feel ready. I’ve got to go and do another course, or I’ve got to go and read another book, or I’ve got to go and listen to another podcast, or I just don’t feel like I’m good enough for that.

 

And it’s those that hesitate. It’s those that don’t make the move. They’re the ones that fall behind. And the women that go, do you know what? I’m going to give this a go. I’m going to just jump in, put my hat in the ring, put my hand up, make myself a bit more visible in my organizations. Those are the ones that go on to achieve incredible things in their career. And they’re no different to the ones that don’t. They just decide that they’re just going to go anyway. And they’re going to figure things out along the way.

 

And if I look throughout my whole life, this has literally been the story day. I didn’t feel ready to move to Australia when I was 23. I didn’t feel ready to pivot from beauty and to tech recruitment. I didn’t feel ready to start my own business. I certainly didn’t feel ready to write a book. I didn’t feel ready to step on stage, to start podcasting, but I did it regardless. And the one thing that’s helped me make these decisions that I want to share with your amazing audience is this whole thing about

 

My biggest fear isn’t failing or not succeeding at something. It’s would I regret not doing this? And that fuels me more than anything else. I future cast and I go, 10 years on from now, would you regret not writing that book? 10 years on from now, would you regret not starting that business? And that gives me this sense of urgency to just think, screw it, I’m going to go for it. I’m going to give this a go and I’m going to start before I feel ready.

 

And that’s what I see all the women that go on to achieve incredible things. They do that as well. So that’s the difference that I’ve seen. I’d love to get your thoughts on that as well.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:00)

The podcast I did in 2025 with Wade Kingsley and he said so many people die with the idea inside. So to your point, you’ve brought that idea out and you’ve put it on the table and you’ve lived it and I love that. what I’m interested in from the women that you and we’re going to keep focused on females for the purposes of being power of women. What differentiates

 

People like you, people potentially like me who say, ⁓ stuff it, I’m going to do it versus those who don’t.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (08:41)

So I think it’s the way we frame things. So for example, like when I’m about to go for something, I won’t just focus on all the things that could go wrong. And I think this is what lot of women do. Because I’ve spoken to a lot of women about this. We focus on all these things that could go really wrong, and that’s not a reason to do it. So I have this framework that I work through. Anytime I make a decision, I go, OK, what’s the worst case scenario? Because we’re going to think it regardless.

 

and getting it out onto paper, out of our minds, we see it for what it is. And every time I’ve done this and I’ve looked at it, I’ve gone, do you know what? If that actually happened, yeah, okay, it would suck, but it wouldn’t be that bad. I’d still live, I’d still breathe, and I’d get through it. So I think that’s the one thing that I see people do. They focus on the worst thing, and then they talk themselves out of it because they’re so afraid. The other side of that is, what’s the best case scenario? If everything went really well, like if this actually worked, what would that look like?

 

But then the problem with that is that if we focus too much on that, we set our expectations way too high. And then if we don’t exceed, if we don’t get to those expectations, we feel like a failure and then we don’t try again. And then in the middle is the likely case. And this is where I focused on, and I know a lot of women that I speak to focus on as well. It’s like, okay, yes, things would go wrong. Yes, I could fail, but you know what? I could also learn. And

 

If all of this stuff happens over here, that would be amazing, but maybe that’s a little bit too much of an expectation. So what’s the likely case? And I think our ability to just think practically, sometimes remove those emotions as well and just go, I’m going to go for this because the chances are that this could work for me. And hey, if it doesn’t, it’s not the end of the world. And if it does, how amazing would that be? So I think that framework’s always really helped me make big decisions in my life.

 

The women I’ve spoken to, they’re very rational sometimes in their thinking. They don’t fear. They know that they’re going to be, there’s fear there, but that doesn’t let them, they’re not stopped by fear. They’re not paralyzed by fear. They go anyway. So that’s the framework that’s really helped me make big decisions and go for my dreams.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:51)

default point of I’m not ready, I’m scared to do it comes into play quite often. I’m not sure that everybody gets to the blue sky thinking of this could be the outcome if I jump in now, but I think they do get to that midpoint of what is the worst thing that could happen and jump in and let that evolve. And I think that is more often than not. However,

 

As we know, that one thing that holds so many back is that four-letter word being fear. And they are afraid of what is the worst thing that could happen.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (11:31)

have the same fear and every single woman that’s gone on to do something has had the same fear and I don’t want anyone to listen to this and think ⁓ you know they’re just confident or they’re brave it’s like no we have sat with that fear ourselves but like I said I always come back to the fear of regret that’s my biggest fear not the fear of failure or success or what people think of me I’m like okay what the biggest fear for me is

 

What if I regret not doing this?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:02)

doing it. Yeah. And that is very motivating and you won’t be alone. You won’t be alone in that. So let’s talk about the marketplace and the workplace for a moment if we could. So what are organisations looking for right now in candidates in a marketplace that is more dynamic in the rate of change than it’s ever been before?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (12:31)

I sit in boardrooms and I listen to hiring managers tell me, right Georgie, next year we’re going to be hiring this skill, this skill, we need people with this skill and we’re letting go of people with this skill. So I was hearing all these things from hiring managers telling me all this. And then on the flip side, I was hearing from the candidates that were so confused because they’re not sure what to learn, what skills to develop, they’re not even getting interviews. And I just thought, my goodness, like I have to help people now because I say it, the career ladder has gone.

 

Careers are no longer linear. We don’t go to university, get a job and work our way up the corporate ladder. Those days are gone. And if you don’t know what the new rules of work are, you’re going to get left behind. So there’s a conversation I had with a hiring manager the other day that really stood out to me. And he said this, he was recruiting for a sort of a senior product role. And he said to me, Georgie, on a scale of one to 10, technically, we need somebody who’s about a five.

 

because now AI can do a lot of the grunt work. So is that okay? That’s interesting. Now this is new because going back 10 years ago when I started, it was all about we need 10 years of this, we need five years of this. It was like a tick box exercise on a job description. Not anymore. Then he said to me, but when it comes to adaptability, emotional intelligence, empathy, leadership, communication skills, I need someone who’s a nine.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:56)

for the list.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (13:57)

That’s the difference. It’s the human skills are now becoming the career currency. And this is what I’m shouting from the rooftops. We don’t need to be experts in technology. We don’t need to become AI experts overnight. What we do need to do is work on our communication. We need to be adaptable. We need to be resilient. And we need to understand that it is our human abilities now.

 

that are going to really stand out in a crowded marketplace where technology is evolving so fast.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:33)

That’s super, super important and it’s not about an AI replacement discussion. It’s actually about how to stand out in a marketplace where AI is present. And you can train for skill. Training for attitude is a very different matter. Very different matter. So thank you for pointing that out. That’s really interesting.

 

Women often underestimate or dismiss the skills that the market values the most being influence, EQ, relationship, intelligence, all those things you’ve talked about. So how do we now get that message across and talk to them about the fact that these skills are now highly regarded and rewarded in the marketplace? Because sometimes these are the skills women feel are the ones that

 

don’t necessarily stand them in their best light.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (15:34)

I completely agree and it’s the whole reason I wrote the book, it’s the reason why I want to come on podcasts like this because you’ve got the audience and I want to speak directly to women because honestly, Dean, my biggest fear is that we’re going to fall behind. And I actually think women have a unique advantage right now because these human skills are what kind of naturally come to women. We’re naturally more empathetic. We are naturally, I believe, problem solvers. We’re very good at multitasking.

 

Like you ask a woman to get something done, she’s got 10 other things going on. She’s going to get it done, right? We have these incredible capabilities. The only thing that I think is going to get in our way is the belief, is the confidence. And that’s why the whole start of my book is all around that because I can tell people right now, you need to go learn AI, you need to work on your communication, you need to network more. But if you don’t believe that you have got the capabilities, if you don’t believe that you’re enough, if you’re not confident in your own skin,

 

you’re never going to take that first step. So I think it’s the state of mind that we live in every single day that’s the most important. And that’s what I constantly work on myself because I’ve come up against myself so much. And this is the other thing I think that doesn’t get discussed enough. We talk about imposter syndrome, right? But when I’ve experienced imposter syndrome the most is when I’ve been pushing myself out of my comfort zone. It’s when I’ve been coming on to talk about this topic on podcasts or panels.

 

Right, and I think that this is what we don’t realise. So when we go to do something that scares us, we feel those imposter, we get those negative thoughts and we back out. But actually, I’m saying to women, lean in. Because yes, you’re going to come up against yourself, but that’s where all the growth is. And we can’t sit this next phase out. We need to be present, we need to be supporting each other. And we need to be shouting from the rooftops now that women cannot get left behind in this new era of work. And we need to be…

 

standing side by side, need to be lifting each other up. That’s what I want to see. So how do we get the message out there? We have conversations like this. We continue to share these conversations with the women that we care about. And that’s how we make a movement. That’s how we make sure that no woman gets left behind as we move into this next tech era.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:48)

So are you seeing a shift Georgie where the candidates are actually embracing these skills that have been elevated to the top of the list, these interpersonal skills more so than hard skills?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (18:01)

I those that are really taking this, people that they want to get ahead, yes they are. I think that I’ve seen quite a few women actually say to me that they’ve enrolled in, most of them are doing AI courses. So the women that I’m coaching at the moment, I’m telling them to go out and do, go to Coursera for example, go and do an AI course. just, that’s how you’re going to build a bit of confidence, right? Just start playing around with tools, but also gaining a micro-credential.

 

posting it on your LinkedIn profile, showing the world that you’re staying ready and relevant in this new world. So I think learning the AI tools is important and getting those micro-credentials is also a sign that you’re staying ready, you’re taking this seriously, you’re being visible. But on the flip side, working on your communication is equally as important. So one thing I did when I wrote in the book, I actually did Toastmasters. So this is going back years ago.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:54)

That’s something I haven’t heard of for years Georgie.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (19:00)

Listen, I did this I did this five years ago and it was the best thing I ever did because no joke There was a time in my life that I could not get up and say my name in front of a room of people Without almost passing out. I would see like spots I would like sweat and I’d get so panicked and I knew it was gonna hold me back I knew that I thought okay. I want to get some messages out there I want to start spreading the the beliefs and the values that I have with the world. How am I gonna get better?

 

better communication. So I enrolled in the Toastmasters, I did it for two years. It was the most uncomfortable thing I’ve ever done in my life. I remember the first speech I ever did. I fumbled through it. It probably didn’t even make sense, but I did it. And this is the key piece I always tell people. When you go to do something new, when you step outside your comfort zone, it is not going to feel comfortable. You are going to be made to feel embarrassed. You’re going to be made to feel like you’re, you know,

 

what’s going on, you’re going to feel really awkward. And that’s all part of growth. But I’m so grateful that I did that years ago, because I honestly wouldn’t have been able to come on this podcast, like even five years ago do, just without really panicking. So I think that we’ve got to own our strengths, but we also need to be realistic of the gaps that we have as well. So I think that communication is key, emotional intelligence is key.

 

reading some great books on these topics, listening to some great podcasts, doing some courses. We don’t need to go and get a degree or do anything crazy like that, but we can just find little cracks in the day where we could just absorb a bit of information, work on things that we want to work on. And that’s what I’ve continued to do throughout my entire life and my entire career. And I think that’s why I’ve continued to evolve as a human being and kept on getting better in the areas that I needed to improve upon.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:52)

Yeah, that’s brilliant. And I joke about Toastmasters. ⁓ I describe growing up in my household as Toastmasters. It was the only way you could get heard. I did a little earlier in a slightly different setting because standing on stage was almost the only way you could be heard in a household of five other A-type personalities, but each to their own.

 

So coming up, we’re talking the future of work and how AI is reshaping opportunity and how women can articulate what they’re known for in ways that shift their entire career trajectory.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and I’m here with recruitment and career advocate Georgie Hubbard. Georgie, you mentioned earlier you’ve built an AI tool, Pivoter, and to help people navigate the change in the age of AI. I’d like to hear a little bit about what Pivoter is. But what’s the biggest misconception also that people have about AI being a threat to the career?

 

and the marketplace.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (22:23)

think that the thought process is AI is going to take my job. look, I do think AI is going to take certain jobs, yes. I’m not going to sit here and say it’s not. I think that there’s going to be certain jobs that will be really impacted by AI, customer service, admin, anything that is very task and repetitive.

 

those will be automated. Yeah, I do believe that will happen. When it will happen, it kind of is already happening. Like you’re seeing redundancies, you’re seeing restructures and things going on in organisations. So, look, I’m not going to sit here and say that we’re all safe. I think that we need to be very alert and aware of what’s going on. But what I am seeing, what I believe is true is that AI won’t take your job.

 

but someone who knows how to use it will. This is the phrase that keeps on going around. So there are certain jobs that yes, AI will definitely take. That’s going to happen. But then in the corporate world, I think it’s really important to understand what tasks do you do that AI could basically take away from you. And we’re going to get to a point soon where agents are going to come in, where we’re literally going to be able to pass so much to AI agents, which is just going to be like, save us so much time.

 

and energy. So the world’s going to change quickly. And I’m just saying to women especially, don’t be afraid of this technology. Don’t bury your head in the sand and pretend it’s not coming. You need to be aware and you need to be ready for what’s to come. And the best way to start is just using it, playing around with it, downloading Chat GBT, Claw, Gemini, Microsoft Copilot, whatever one you want to start playing with, don’t be afraid of it because it’s here and it’s not going anywhere.

 

So that’s the first thing I would say. Now, when it comes to Pivoter, so the reason why I wanted to create this is because I wanted to give people an actual roadmap. So let’s just say that the jobs that are going to be unfortunately made redundant due to AI, right? So let’s just say customer service role. Well, as a customer service agent, you have got a lot of transferable skills.

 

You’re really good with people, you get a problem solving, you get a thinking on your feet. So that can be translated into another area. So what you can do with Pivotal is you can literally type in your current role title, customer service. It will then help map all of your transferable skills. It will get to know you, will ask you a number of questions, like what are your strengths, what do you enjoy, where do you see yourself going next? And then it will give you some options in terms of where you can go to next. So it will basically pull up job ideas, job titles,

 

then it will give you a roadmap to follow to get you from where you are to where you want to be. that’s the idea. tool. That’s what we’ve created. yeah. it’s, we’ve launched it, we’re getting great feedback. We are, we’re at the start of this, like, I really want to build this into something very, very helpful for people because

 

The reality is whether we’re moving into a whole other industry, whether we’re going to go off and start our own business, I think it’s going to be very much a rise of an entrepreneurial era. think there’s a lot of people that are going to go off and start their own businesses, monetise their skills.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:36)

Because all of that repetitive stuff’s going to be taken away. And I think you can reframe this in a complete positive. If AI takes all of those repetitive tasks, all of those tasks that were done on a spreadsheet or similar away from you, and free up time and head space to work on something more innovative and the things you never get time to get to, that’s nirvana.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (26:04)

million percent and you know someone asked me the other day, Georgie how you doing all this? How you running a recruitment company and a mentorship program and running events and I was like AI. Good question. I said literally I sat down and I said to myself what tasks take up my most time and how could AI help me do this better? How can it help me be more efficient?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:13)

You

 

I imagine writing a short a candidate shortlist is very different to what it looked like five years ago. Yeah because those those used to be things that we would have to put aside half a day or a day or more depending on the on the level and and the caliber and I imagine now that looks very very different.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (26:50)

totally different. Summarizing candidate skills. So if I’m on a call, for example, I’ll be popping my notes into ⁓ one of the AI notebook or something, then I’ll whack it into Google Gemini. I you summarize these candidate skills for me from my notes? Boom, that’ll give me a nice summary. Then I send that to the higher manager with their CV. That literally saved me three hours. So all this time that I’m getting back, then I can think.

 

huge amounts of time. And then I can use that to be doing something else like building an AI tool or writing a book. there’s so much time and productivity that we can get back. Or you might not want to go and start a business or something. And that’s okay. Maybe you could use that time to spend more time with your family. All these things that AI can give us back is incredible.

 

We just need to learn how to use it, not be afraid of it and ask ourselves the question, what mundane tasks take up the most time in my week and how could I outsource this to AI? That’s what I did and I realized that it was

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:52)

I think we both agree AI is not going to eliminate jobs, but it’s certainly going to eclipse the people who don’t know how to use it. So if we look at females specifically, Georgie, what are the opportunities that AI is actually creating? Can we list some of the jobs that perhaps people could aim for?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (28:19)

I don’t think anyone knows the jobs that are to come from this. think that I won’t want to sit here and think, right, it’s going to be this job, this job, this job. But I think what it’s going to do is I think we, instead of seeing ourselves as a job, we see ourselves as skills. And how can we monetize those skills? So I think what it’s going to do is it’s going to create a new wave of female entrepreneurs. And the mindset I want women to have is this is not who, my job title is not who I am.

 

What are my strengths? What are my skills? What do people come to me for? If I walked into your organization tomorrow, what would you, what would people say about you? What are you known for? And I think the more we can get clear on what we, what skills we have, what strengths we have, then we can actually take those skills and strengths and potentially package them up and offer them to businesses and make money back. So I think it’s not necessarily thinking about this mindset of,

 

Where’s the next job going to be? It’s like, how can I now really utilize my incredible skills? Like I even look at you Dee, you’re such a great communicator. You come across as so confident you start this podcast. Like that in itself is so entrepreneurial. It’s so bold. It’s so brave. And that’s what I want women to do. I want women to see themselves as like more than just a title, more than just the next promotion. I want them to see themselves as, okay, I am this incredible woman with all of these skills.

 

Where can I take that next? And one final thing about AI that I want women to hear, because I speak to so many women about this. So many women say that they think AI is cheating. I can’t do that, it’s cheating. Well, I’m here to say it’s not cheating. You are using it to your advantage, you’re using it to get ahead. And if you don’t, someone else using it is going to get ahead of you. So it’s not cheating, you need to be using this technology. And even if like,

 

that I talk to it. So don’t know about how you use it deep, but I literally just chat to it. So I don’t necessarily type, I talk into it. And if I’m thinking about a new idea or how I can come up with something, a new idea for my business, I’ll just chat to ChatGBT or Claude and I’ll say, hey, act like a top business coach. We want to prompt it correctly and help me really sort of, guess, understand my thoughts. This is my skills currently. This is what I’m doing in my job.

 

What opportunities are out there right now? What problems could I solve? What value could I bring to the marketplace? Use it as like your co-pilot, use it as your business coach almost. And it’s given me so many great ideas that the opportunities ultimately is what I’m trying to say is absolutely endless. And I want women to have a really positive outlook about the future and what AI can give them. It can give them that time, it can give them that productivity, it can give them business ideas, it can make them money.

 

in other areas. I do generally think we are going into a really fantastic phase for those that are adaptable and those are curious and those that get on this now and not wait.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:18)

So if you said we’re into the new year now, it’s 2026, what would you say the top three things females should focus on in terms of upskilling themselves as they head towards the really potent part of the hiring year as we get into the June’s and July’s where we know the market gets really meaty?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (31:43)

So I would 100 % look to do some courses on AI. would definitely gain some micro credentials just to give yourself that confidence. That’s the first thing that I would do. So that’s the tech side. Go to Coursera, it’s exactly what I did. There’s a range of courses. There’s IBM courses, Google courses. Like just pick one, they’re short and take you about like a lesson hour to do and then add that to your LinkedIn profile. That’s really important. The second thing I would be thinking about

 

for next for 2026 is your network. I say this to every single woman, your reputation is now your resume. Start in January building up those strong foundations of the women around you, the male allies around you, the people that could advocate for you in your business and outside of the place of work. Because too many women, I think, wait until they need a job or they need another opportunity and then they’re going to start reaching out to their network.

 

I’ve been really, really intentional over the last 12 months. Yeah, 100 % too late. Over the last 12 months, I’ve really invested in my networking and my relationships. And I think that that human to human connection is going to be incredibly important for next year. And then the final thing I would say is do a bit of a time audit and really be thinking about where you spend your time every week.

 

Because I think that too many women, and myself included in this, we can be busy. Busy not doing the right things and busy putting everybody else above our own needs. And I think that the best thing we can do for 2026 is get honest about where we spend our time. And we don’t need to add more onto our already busy plates. I talk about in the book, I talk about these three balls that we juggle. We’ve got bouncy balls, which are

 

the laundry, the admin, the email we didn’t respond to. And they can just be dropped because they bounce back up. Then we’ve got the concrete balls and these are the obligations, the people that don’t light us up or support us, the things that weigh us down, drop them. Then we’ve got the glass balls and these are the balls that we really need to focus on in 2026 and beyond. They’re our family, they’re our relationships, they’re our career development, they’re our health. These are the balls that need to be prioritized.

 

So this is such an important exercise to do as we move into the next year, like where are you spending your time? Making sure it’s on the right things, making sure it’s investing in yourself, in your learning, in your relationships, dropping everything else that doesn’t matter. And really, I guess, you know, putting yourself at the top of your priority list because you don’t want to wait until you need a new job or you need something for next year to start. So start as you mean to go on 2026, prioritize yourself, learn that new skill.

 

Work on your network and your relationships and be really honest about where you’re spending your time and making sure you’re spending on the right things.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:39)

Yeah, love that. And I love the example of the three balls and to add further weight to the glass ball, if you don’t focus on those things and you drop the ball literally, it’ll shatter. So it’s a really, really, really important message. So if we then try and wrap all of these points together, Georgie.

 

Is the resume the number one place to articulate what you have to offer or is it only one place where we articulate what we have to offer?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (35:19)

I think in this new world, your resume, yes, always have it ready and prepared. But where you need to spend most of your time and energy is on LinkedIn. So I say LinkedIn now is very, very important. And I’ll tell you why. So as a recruiter, I have access to the back end of LinkedIn. And when I’m searching for candidates for a job, now LinkedIn has embedded AI. And this is what people don’t understand.

 

So when I’m searching for candidates now, I’ll type in the job title and LinkedIn will use AI to bring up the top applicants. And what I’m telling all of the women that I’m coaching right now is that you need to be seen and you need to be searchable. So yes, your resume is important and you also want to customize that for all of the jobs that you send because you want to make sure the keywords and the job description that you’re applying for are in your resume.

 

or the ATS system’s not going to bring your resume to the top. But more important than that, what hiring managers do, recruiters do, talent people do, is they will look you up online. And this is why I keep saying to women, visibility leads to opportunity. So if you want to stand out in 2026 and get hired and get a job and have opportunities come to you, you need to make sure that your LinkedIn profile is set up for success because it’s where a lot of recruiters and hiring managers hang out and find talent.

 

You want to make sure that you’ve got the right title. You want to make sure all of the keywords that you want to be known for are in your bio. You want to make sure that your job titles are all up to date and what you’ve done, the outcomes you’ve achieved are all in your LinkedIn profile. And a big tip I’d give is if you know where you want to go to next or you’ve got a rough idea of where you’d like to pivot into or move into, make a list of all the job descriptions that you are going to be wanting to apply for potentially next year.

 

and just read them and scan them and think, okay, what words are coming up all the time and how can I make sure that’s reflective, yes on my resume, but also on my LinkedIn profile? Because as a recruiter like me, I’m not necessarily posting ads anymore and waiting for applicants to come to me. I’m being proactive and going on LinkedIn and trying to source talent, headhunt talent. And if you’re not looking at your LinkedIn profile this way,

 

You could really be not selling yourself for success in 2026.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:38)

Yep and that’s really valuable. While I’ve spent most of my career in the search side where I’ve had to do the digging, to your point even the recruitment market now is taking the proactive approach of searching the market for talent rather than posting the old-fashioned job ad and so you need to be displaying your wares in the best

 

way to to improve your your likelihood as a candidate in a in competitive marketplace. So that’s really really good advice Georgie. Thank you. Brilliant. I’ve got a couple of rapid fire questions to ⁓ to wrap up today if I could throw them throw them at you. Who’s the boldest leader you admire?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (38:33)

going to say Catherine Boychuk. She’s the CTO of EY. She’s bold, she’s brave and she’s continually inspired me as a woman.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:41)

Brilliant. A skill every woman needs in 2026.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (38:47)

the

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:48)

An AI tool you can’t do without?

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (38:55)

say chat TBT. It’s my therapist, it’s my business coach, it’s my productivity tool.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:02)

I

 

hope you’re not relying on it to keep giving you affirmation. And finally, one word that defines women at work in the next decade.

 

GEORGIE HUBBARD [Guest] (39:07)

No I’m

 

want to say bold. We need to be bold, D. We need to be bold and brave.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:24)

Brilliant. Georgie, thank you so much for sharing the insights into the marketplace. And I think what’s really ⁓ important takeaways from this is the marketplace is changing. And for anybody who listened to the episode that I ran the other a couple of weeks ago with Kelly Slezor, who’s one of Australia’s top AI specialists, the marketplace is moving in, has been moving in six month increments since AI launched.

 

but over the next two years, we are going to move forward 20 years. So we’ve never seen change happen at such a rate. So to reiterate, don’t be afraid of AI. It’s not that it’s going to replace you, but if you don’t know how to use AI, somebody who does is gonna be in front of you in the pecking order for the job market. So make sure

 

you’re upskilling. And I love that phrase that Georgie uses, which is micro-credentials. There’s lots of courses you can do. There’s lots of upskilling you can do. I’ve been on an upskilling journey myself in my 60s for the last two years at a faster rate than I ever, ever have before. And that is what fuels me, because the more I learn, the more I can do and the more I want to do.

 

Don’t underestimate the power of continuous learning. Learning agility is a muscle that you absolutely need to leverage. Thank you, Georgie. I’m going to add all the details of where we can find you in the show notes and the links to Pivoter and all of the tools that you’ve done. That will be helpful for anybody who wants to engage with you. But I think you’ve got a fair idea. You can probably find Georgie on LinkedIn.

 

you will definitely find me on LinkedIn. And please share this episode with somebody who’s struggling with how to approach this tricky job market. It’s competitive, but it’s never been more dynamic. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:01 Introduction to Bold Moves in Careers

02:52 The Importance of Courage and Confidence

05:50 Understanding the Marketplace Dynamics

08:34 Human Skills as Career Currency

11:39 Women’s Unique Advantages in the Workplace

14:25 Embracing Interpersonal Skills

17:22 Navigating AI and Career Transitions

20:14 The Future of Work and AI’s Impact

22:47 The Impact of AI on Employment

24:14 Navigating Career Transitions with Pivoter

26:03 Embracing AI for Productivity

28:35 Opportunities for Women in the AI Era

32:02 Essential Skills for 2026

35:37 The Importance of LinkedIn in Job Searching

 

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Contact Di

 

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Knowledge is Power When Navigating Menopause

Knowledge is Power When Navigating Menopause

by | Apr 6, 2026 | Female Empowerment, Health & Wellbeing, Managing Menopause

Power Of Women Podcast with Lisa Curry OLY.

For most of her life, Lisa trusted her body. As an elite athlete, discipline and endurance were non-negotiable. But perimenopause brought a different challenge. One she was not prepared for.

Emotional volatility. Anxiety. Irrational reactions. Sleep disruption.

Her internal question was blunt:

“What the f*ck is wrong with me?”

At the time, no one was talking about perimenopause. Doctors weren’t naming it. Women weren’t comparing symptoms. In this conversation, Lisa shares how hormonal change affected her identity, relationships, mood, and confidence, and why women do not have to wait for symptoms to escalate before becoming proactive.

 

➡️You’ll Hear :

  • The emotional impact of hormonal change
  • How perimenopause affects identity and relationships
  • Why pushing through can backfire
  • The role of inflammation, alcohol and sugar
  • The four pillars of self-care [SELF]: Sleep, Exercise, Lifestyle, Food
  • HRT, natural therapies and informed choice
  • What post-menopause feels like

Lisa now supports over 1.5 million women through hormonal education and community.

Her message is practical and clear:

Hormonal change is not a flaw.
It is biology.

Work with it.

➡️Lisa’s key learnings:

💡Track your symptoms before they escalate
💡Don’t dismiss sleep disruption
💡Understand your options: HRT, natural, integrated
💡Remove accumulated neglect
💡Every decision today impacts your future health.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT- LISA CURRY TALKING WITH DI GILLETT ON THE POWER OF WOMEN PODCAST.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:02)

Lisa, when you hear the words power of women, what’s the first lived experience that comes to mind?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (00:11)

that comes to mind is everything that I’ve done in my life feels like a stepping stone to where I am today and every stepping stone matters.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:24)

What happens when your body suddenly stops responding the way it always has? When exhaustion, weight gain, anxiety, sleep disruption and emotional volatility become everyday feelings. And you guessed it because we are going to talk about menopause. I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement

 

of women from all walks of life. And this is where we have intelligent, grounded conversations about women’s authority, health, leadership, and lived experience without minimizing sugar coating or outsourcing agency. My guest today is Lisa Curry triple Olympian, Australian sporting icon.

 

and co-founder of Happy Healthy You, one of Australia’s trusted women’s health platforms. This is Lisa’s story, her perimenopause and menopause journey, and together with Jeff Butterworth, Lisa has helped build a platform that now supports over 1.5 million women, not just with supplements, but with education, assessment, and informed choice.

 

Lisa Curry welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (01:48)

Thank you so much, Di Thanks for having me.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:50)

Lisa, you’ve had to trust your body for most of your life as an elite athlete and a mother and you truly understand discipline and resilience, particularly in that elite sporting framework. What were the signs that something had fundamentally shifted?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (02:12)

You’re right, I did have to trust my body a lot as an athlete. And I understood every feeling that I had because there are days when you train, you feel great. And there are days that you train and you don’t feel great. But in sport, and particularly in elite sport, you learn to push through. When your coach says you have to do 10 more, when you’ve only got one more in you, you do 10 because that’s what’s required. And you can’t go to the Olympic games, you can’t go to three Olympic games.

 

without that dedication, that motivation, that work ethic of pushing through. And yet at the same time, for my last Olympics, I was also a mother, a mother of two little girls. And there were times when I tried to recreate that feeling of pushing through like I did as an athlete in motherhood. And I realized that I couldn’t do it.

 

It was too hard. had nothing left. And so when I finally retired from my sport and then I had another baby as well. So three kids at that point, I was working, I was still training because I was trying to keep myself in good shape. My body started to change, but more than my body, my mind started to change. So my emotional stability started to crack.

 

And I kept thinking, am I allowed to swear on this?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:44)

You can swear on this because it’s a swearing sort of topic.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (03:49)

Because I was thinking what the fuck is wrong with me. I really thought that I was going crazy my poor husband, you know, he copped everything and Physically, I felt pretty good except you know every fifth day before a period I would just lose my shit about any single thing but more than that emotionally and intelligently I felt there was something wrong. I thought there was something wrong with me

 

I couldn’t put my finger on it. couldn’t work it out. was an absolute cow. ⁓ I was a bitch. went to my doctor to find out what was wrong with me. No one, we’re talking back in the 1990s now, no one was talking about this. Not even the doctor could say to me, it sounds like you’re perimenopausal.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:38)

I don’t think we even knew the word peri-many-pords.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (04:40)

No, no, we didn’t and you know if he had said that like they sometimes do today you you’d say what what is that what what’s all about we didn’t know the word menopause because my mum used to talk about it but menopause when you’re 30 menopause feels like it’s for old women yeah and old women i’m talking 50s and 60s and of course now that we’re over 50 and 60 that’s not old right so

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (05:02)

Yeah.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (05:10)

You just think there’s something wrong with you, but I remember going to the doctor and he wrote me out a script for a maid and a massage. Now, I think that was his way of being funny, but it almost trivialized my feeling about everything. And I came away from that thinking, I still don’t know what’s wrong with me.

 

And so I think it really affected my relationship with my husband at the time. You know, was, it was volatile. And at times, you know, I was irrational, moody, angry for seemingly no reason. The weight gain wasn’t a thing for me back then because I was training so much still. ⁓ but it was the, the reactive emotions that I had that really caused a lot of tension, ⁓ in the home. So did you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:05)

think it all though being being an elite athlete and being driven and focused did you actually recognize the mood swing change or did you just put that down to the sort of fire in the belly that you had as an elite performer?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (06:22)

No, because I was very in control of my emotions when I was training, as you have to be. ⁓ But I didn’t realize that my outbursts were happening every month. Because in those days, you didn’t track those sort of things. I I tracked everything in my sport, every single thing that I ate, my sleep, my vitamins, my training, my times, how I felt, every single thing. And my coach would write in my log book every single week, but I never tracked.

 

my feelings and thoughts and emotions. And then when I stopped training, just, I felt lost. I felt almost hopeless. I felt heavy and I felt almost invisible because there was so much going on in my life. And it’s the same with women these days. You know, my daughter’s going through it at the moment. She hates the thought that she’s probably in early menopause.

 

I keep saying to her, I’m really sorry my sweetheart, but I think you are. ⁓ But when you have three young kids and a husband and you work and you’re trying to have some sort of a life, the last person that gets any sort of hope or clarity or energy is yourself. And then therefore your symptoms become worse ⁓ because deprivation of sleep is

 

one of the main causes of a lot of things that happen in your life and being a busy working mom, it’s hard to say, just sleep more because there is, yeah, when exactly there’s this invisible load that mothers have and it’s not just about looking after the kids or the family or going to work. It’s about, I’ve got washing to do.

 

What’s on the weekend? Have I got the lunchboxes? Have I got the food for dinner tonight and for the lunches tomorrow? Who needs a washing uniform? Where are we going? How are we going to do that? I need? Constantly and even at night time you’re thinking about all the things that you need to do for the day and your husband says just go to sleep. like your wish. I wish I could just go to sleep. You know my husband now he’s like he closes his eyes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:26)

instantly on.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (08:44)

30 seconds later I’ll say babe remember we’ve got to do this tomorrow he says I was asleep I said what you just you just closed your eyes how could you possibly be asleep but you know it’s that invisible load that that busy mums have to deal with every single day while they’re going through perimenopause

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:06)

I wonder how many divorces, if you could strip it back, actually are caused as a result of menopause and a lack of understanding of everybody in the household as to what that involves. I don’t know that there’s been any stats done on that, but it would be high. It would have to be high.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (09:28)

It would have to be and I distinctly remember times where I would scream at my husband and then find myself curled up in a ball, crying, saying to him, you don’t understand, you don’t love me. And I remember the look on his face. It was like almost fear, but who are you? And then the next day I was fine.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:55)

Yep.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (09:56)

So it puts a lot of stress, I think, in a relationship. But I truly believe now that we know all of this. And I speak about this often when I’m talking to groups of women that if they feel like they’ve got these symptoms coming on, that it’s really important to sit down with the whole family and talk to them about it, talk to them about the symptoms, how you’re feeling, how you react, particularly to your husband, and what you need from them.

 

So sometimes you don’t need anything to be fixed. You just need someone to come and give you hug and say, it’s gonna be okay. We’ll get through this. Just take a deep breath. Let me rub your head for you. I don’t know, some simple things that husbands or partners can do. And when kids know that mum is being moody or irrational, not necessarily little kids, but as they’re old enough to understand, you know, they can probably help a little.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (10:52)

That’s so true and it’s such a generational shift Lisa because I do not ever remember and our household was probably not one that was open about emotions and I don’t think I hugged my parents until I married my European husband who was all about kisses on each cheek and all of a sudden my mother got on board. I do not remember her talking about

 

menopause at all. can remember her becoming tricky but we didn’t talk about periods either. mean the approach to periods was something was put on the top shelf in a cupboard from BTUs which was a bag of period pads. Nothing said, no instructions, no conversation. And by the time I was of an age where I felt that I wanted to talk to my mother about menopause she was suffering from dementia.

 

So completely missed opportunity. How do you find we’re going to approach that? I mean, you’re having that conversation, as you said, with your daughter now. Is that a quantum shift in what is happening now generationally around perimenopause and menopause?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (12:13)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think now that we know more about it, it’s so much easier to have those conversations with your daughter, with your granddaughter. And I like to call it, ⁓ there’s two things I talk about. One is the relay of life. So what, and I try and make that ⁓ analogy through my sport, but the relay of life is like the young 10 year old who gets her period.

 

what she knows about herself what she’s going through she will hand the baton to her 18 year old self and that 18 year old self will learn more about reproductive systems in the body and how to deal with school and university and relationships and work and The way that she develops in that time she will pass that baton onto her 30 year old self and then the 35 year old and it goes on and on until you reach postmenopause so I’m 63 now and

 

Then the next part of that, where I talk about the long game, the long game is like, um, well, might, go back. I’ll say, I want to go to the Olympics. So you just don’t go to the Olympics. You’ve got all these steps. So when you’re finally at the Olympics, it started way back. We started 10 or 15 years ago. And so the long game is about trying to be proactive as you grow up through the stages of life so that you can have

 

a great ⁓ third phase of your life. say for example you want to divide your life into three phases. You’ve got you know from zero to 30, 30 to 60, 60 onwards. So that 30 to 60 phase I call midlife which my daughter doesn’t like because she said mom I’m not in midlife. you kind of are.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:04)

She thinks of you as midlife and doesn’t want to reframe that. Yes.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (14:09)

So what you do in each stage affects the next stage. if we can get the information to ⁓ women, to girls, to be proactive with their prevention of the severity of the symptoms that may or may not come, then it will help everybody. And when I say that, there are some people who really struggle with their symptoms. There are people who kind of, you know,

 

up and down like I was and then there are people who just breeze through it. So everybody is different. But my biggest thing that I want people to take away from this and when I speak to women is that knowledge is power. If you can get the knowledge about being proactive about your life and the fact that hormonal change is

 

biology. That’s all it is. It’s your body doing what it’s supposed to do. So you don’t want to interfere with what it’s doing, but you want to work with your body. You can’t beat it. You can’t beat your biology, but you can work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:17)

Yeah and I talk about Lisa that that you know having the the willpower to push through can be the the characteristic or quality that makes us great but it can also be our biggest you know biggest detriment too because that ability to push through and and not listen to the signs not listen to our to our bodies is is where we can find ourselves in in trouble. How do we

 

How do we resist if we are inclined to go, I’ve just got to keep going, I’ve just got to keep going, I’ve just got to keep doing things? How do we resist that urge? How do we give ourselves the, and I know it’s an overplayed word, but how do we give ourselves permission to actually address that and listen?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (16:07)

Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things there. ⁓ Firstly, I don’t feel like we should try and override what our body is trying to do naturally. I think we need to learn to work with what’s happening in our body. And when we understand that hormones are just messengers, they’re telling us, they’re telling our bodies something. mean, when you think about perimenopause, it’s when your body starts the transition to menopause.

 

it’s giving you all these symptoms, are messages. Whether or not you listen to those messages is up to you. If you understand that they’re messages, your body’s talking to you, your body’s telling you something. So I tell people you have to listen to what your body’s saying before it starts screaming at you because you don’t want to delay thinking.

 

about what the symptoms are trying to tell you. You want to start to recognize them as they happen and say, okay, I am kicking the cat. I love my cat, but I’m kicking it every month. Why? Why am I doing that? Why am I being a bitch to my best friend when I’m not like that? Why am I getting upset because my husband leaves those funny socks on the floor? Why are these things happening?

 

And when you start to question what’s going on in your life, ⁓ you can start to understand why it’s happening. So hormonally things are changing, they’re shifting, they’re fluctuating. It’s what your body is doing. So as women go through perimenopause, if they understand that their body is fluctuating, it’s all going all over the shop, it makes it easier to be able to find solutions for that.

 

So don’t try and override it just to work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:02)

I’m talking with Lisa Curry Australian sporting icon and co-founder of Happy Healthy You and coming up proactive steps women can take before menopause symptoms escalate.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

Lisa, one of the most important messages you share is women don’t have to wait. And I think we touched on it earlier. We kind of think of menopause as this something 40, sort of 50, 50 years and beyond. But what does proactive perimenopause awareness look like, especially for women your daughter’s age and many of our children’s age in the 30s and 40s?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (18:59)

It’s recognizing that something feels a bit different and it then reflects having a think about what your hormonal patterns might be and to try and start tracking them. Once your sleep starts to be interrupted, once you start feeling anxious for no reason,

 

Once you start biting people’s heads off for no reason, that’s not you. That’s your body doing something. And I think if you can start tracking your symptoms, and once again, I’ll go back to swimming days. We used to write down every single thing we felt all our times. We were tracking everything, but no one ever taught us to track our feelings or our outbursts or our happy days or our bad days.

 

When you see that they become a pattern and they’re cyclical, ⁓ then you can understand how it’s connected to menstrual cycles and all the ups and downs that you have.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:12)

So you’re actually in the education side of what you’re doing, educating people to track that so that you can actually identify the rhythm and the pattern within that?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (20:24)

We talk to people every day. once again, ⁓ it’s out in the media at the moment. No one’s talking about perimenopause. No one’s talking about menopause. Well, we have been for 12 years, right? This is what we do. We’ve had over one and half million ladies download our online hormonal assessment. So if anyone wants to know where to start, that’s a great place to start.

 

And then we have our Facebook group page that has over 203,000 women in one page. So we’re talking to them about it every single day. yeah, last night ⁓ one of my staff members put a post up and some of the responses were, they were really sad to be honest. I thought about it a lot before I went to bed and went to bed thinking these poor women.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:58)

That’s a community.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (21:17)

but they’re not alone. They’re not the only ones going through that. And within our group, they understand that they’re not alone because sometimes when you’re going through something, grief of some sort, and it’s not just about grief of losing someone, it’s grief about losing your own identity. Who was I? Who am I now? And in response to some of these people who are feeling really down, ⁓ you know, we can talk about all the

 

solutions that we provide to people. And one of them, I mean, I’ve always said, sometimes the cheapest counseling is a $5 coffee with your friends, you know, and you go and you talk about it. ⁓ But bottling everything up does not help. Absolutely doesn’t help.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:05)

What’s your view on identifying and acknowledging menopause in the workplace? Is that a positive thing if it’s recognized as part of our health and wellness journey?

 

You know, in the day to have period pain that was debilitating, you couldn’t even talk about that because that was seen as a weakness as an employee. So what’s the view on menopause and perimenopause interrupting our ability to do our daily jobs?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (22:40)

Yeah, look, I find this a really tough question. And I find it tough because they try to implement a ⁓ period leave.

 

Now, I understand why and I understand people can’t get out of bed sometimes because their periods are so bad. But in saying that, imagine, for example, an airline or a hospital where you’ve got hundreds and hundreds of female staff, each wanting five days off per year. That equates to thousands and thousands of days.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:18)

cost a fortune.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (23:22)

I understand, and this is why it makes it tough, I understand that people have debilitating symptoms, but I understand that life still has to go on for work, all right? We need to work, we need to pay the bills. And so in the past, before we knew about the idea that we could maybe take a day off work, we just sucked it up and we just did the job. We went and did our job as well as we could.

 

and then come home and fall apart at home. ⁓ So it is a tough question and I get it, but I also see the the business side of it, which makes it terribly difficult for businesses if all their female staff just keep saying, I’ve got to have days off because I’ve got a bad period. And some people actually do have really bad periods and some people would take advantage of that and just say they have a bad period.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:17)

Yeah, and it’s also creating another subclass of pushing back on potentially promoting women too. So there could be a whole roll-on effect if that is not implemented and acknowledged appropriately in the workforce.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (24:36)

Yeah and and this is where we really like to talk about prevention before things become a crisis.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:44)

Yep. So what are some of those steps if we look at managing our body versus being educated? Tell us why the understanding of body is key to managing that hormonal transition. What information does that provide us?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (25:04)

And I think being managed means being managed is being told what to do without understanding why, but being educated, you know what’s happening in your body, you understand your options, and therefore you can make informed choices. And I think that’s really important because when you’re educated and when you understand, and it’s like having, it’s like people having those light bulb moments.

 

They read something or they listen to something they are right now I know now I know why I feel like I feel and that is empowering. And when you’re empowered you feel confident enough to say I know what I need now.

 

Sometimes you know what you need, but are you prepared to do what you need? Because life gets in the way, life gets busy. You know you should sleep seven, eight, nine hours a night. You know you should exercise. You know your lifestyle should be good and you know you should eat well, but are you doing it? So that’s my little acrimony is to, that’s my four pillars of health is to look after yourself. Self, S-E-L-F.

 

Sleep, exercise, lifestyle, food. So if you ask yourself those four questions each day, what’s my sleep like? Have I exercised? What is my lifestyle like? Have I eaten well today? Four questions. You can start to see that there’s a bit of a pattern. You can start to see, well, no, I’m not exercising. I only ate well for a little bit of the time. ⁓ My lifestyle, ⁓

 

hate my job, I’m in toxic relationship, I don’t do anything in my spare time, I sit on the phone, scroll all day, I’m not doing anything worthwhile. And I stay up all night watching series and sleep for five hours and then I’m a moody bitch at work the next day.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:12)

You probably just described half the population, ⁓

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (27:17)

Sorry. That’s the thing. We’re all adults. If I wanted to be blunt like my coach used to be to me sometimes, he would say, we’re all adults and we all have a choice. You can have the choice of accumulated neglect every single day or you can have the choice of repetitive good habits every single day. It’s not about being perfect. It’s about doing

 

It’s like the 80-20 rule. It’s about doing things right most of the time.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:49)

Yeah, I know in my own world, Lisa, I ⁓ beat myself up about this a bit because I do wonder whether I could have ⁓ made my own menopause journey a little easier. I’m not saying it was the worst of journeys. However, I have been a lifetime sugar addict and I satiated that addiction pretty…

 

generously over the years and I was fish and I was healthy and I was not obese but I had a lot of sugar. I gave up sugar two years ago, processed sugar and with that comes giving up a whole lot of other processed foods that have a follow on effect but I do feel that a lot of the symptoms that I attributed to menopause were probably the symptoms of

 

having a high intake of sugar, inflammation, blood sugar, go on and on and on. But I think, so to your point about self, whilst I ate well most of the time, I probably balled it up with all this sugar that I’d have grazing at my desk until late in the evening working and everything went out the window as a result of it.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (29:11)

Because it’s not just one thing that you have to focus on it. You’ve got to look at the holistic picture Right and there’s there’s so much more to it and you’re right. It’s the inflammation in the body is a massive driver of hormonal imbalance so if people are really honest with What they’re doing every single day Then they can start to see

 

Okay, I can improve here. I can improve here. That’s okay. I can improve here. So I liken it to, ⁓ I talk about this in my speeches too, about people having their jigsaw puzzle in front of them and it’s their life jigsaw puzzle. And if they don’t like their life, if they don’t like how they feel, throw out all the pieces, throw them all out and then only put back the pieces that makes your life the one that you desire. And

 

you leave the sugar out. All right. You leave whatever you want to leave out of it. But two years ago, I quit alcohol as well. And I just realized that I know I remember saying to myself one night, my God, Lisa, if nothing changes, nothing changes. I know that that’s what I tell people all the time, but I wasn’t applying it. Yeah. And so I thought this has got to stop. I was having probably

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:28)

to saying it.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (30:34)

You people might think that’s a lot or not a lot, but probably two or three wines a night. One, one, you know, when I was cooking dinner and then two with dinner or after dinner. But if you start to add it up, it’s a lot

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:48)

It becomes a lot. Yeah, I think we’ve come to understand there is no good amount anymore. I think that’s that’s where we’ve got to

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (30:57)

It’s amazing because now if I have a wine and I do have one every now and again, gee, can taste it. And if it’s a shit wine, you go, it tastes like meth. It also goes straight to my head. So it’s, it’s interesting. So yeah, like just, just think about your jigsaw puzzle. Think about your life. Think about what you want in your life to make the best possible outcome for you as you move through the phases of your life so that when menopause finally comes,

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:07)

Was it worth it?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (31:25)

And then you’re in post-menopause for the rest of your life, you’re an empty nester, the kids are gone, they’re looked after themselves. You can start to travel, you can start to do everything that you’ve wanted to do. You’re free. I call it the freedom years. You know, to be able to do it. You haven’t worked all this time to be exhausted by the time you’re 60. You know, you’ve got to work so that you can live, not the other way around. So by the time you’re in that third phase in your life,

 

You are free to be who you want to be, go where you want to go, do what you want to do.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:02)

And health and wellbeing is the piece that underpins all of your ability to do that along with financial stability. But if you’ve got your health as the saying goes, if you haven’t got your health, you’ve got nothing.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (32:14)

That’s right, yep. So every decision you make today, and it’s never too late to start, every decision you make today is going to benefit you in the future.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:25)

Yeah. Lisa, the debate between natural therapies and HRT or doing, taking nothing for it’s been raging for years and I know there’s been misinformation that has come out and that has been amended over time. What does an integrated evidence-informed approach look like for managing HRT or menopause?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (32:53)

depends who you talk to. So if you speak to a doctor, you will get a different answer than if you spoke to an integrative doctor. And then you might get another answer if you spoke to a natural practitioner. So my whole life, I’ve always tried to always go the natural way. It’s just the way I am. think because

 

I think mainly because I saw what my mum went through and she had a pill for this, a pill for that, a pill for that and then she had all the side effects and then they gave her more pills and I used to see them all lined up and I thought, my God, I never want to be like that. So I’ve always gone the natural route. So we have a really great protocol on our website at the moment about people who are on HRT and what their options are. So

 

I’ll try and explain it this way. So HRT is one option and it works fantastically for some people. ⁓ HRT is one option and I can call that the quick fix. And then I have a medium term fix, which is like a combination of HRT and natural supplements. So that’s, and that’s where we come in. We have a really great approach to that and a great protocol for that on our website.

 

The third approach is a longer term approach, which is the natural supplement approach. It takes longer. You’re not going to get that quick one week fix. It’s going to take three, four months for everything to kick in until you start feeling normal, calm, and balanced again. And then there’s another approach of what I call the self fix, which is you don’t take anything, but you really look after yourself. You eat well, you exercise, you do everything, and you’re very educated and you know exactly what you need to do.

 

So that’s a choice. there’s four choices. There’s four options there. Now, if I take that one step further, there’s, I think, like three different types of women. The first type of woman is the one who, at the moment, feels down, hopeless, completely desperate and struggling. She doesn’t know where she’s at. Everything’s overwhelming. She’s burnt out. She’s lost herself. She doesn’t know where she is.

 

The second type of woman is someone who’s really trying hard, you know, she’s trying to eat well, she’s trying to exercise, she’s trying a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but maybe she’s not being consistent enough to see results. And then the third type of woman is someone who’s really got their act together. So they know exactly what they need to do, they eat well, they exercise and they feel great. So when you, and I don’t know maths very well, but you’ve got four options here.

 

three different types of women but when you interact those options and those types of women there’s a lot of different options.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:54)

There is and I imagine we dip in and out of, you know, can be one option but you dip in and out of one of the others at different points and times or different days.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (36:04)

And

 

depending what’s happening in your life, you might go from that number three lady to the number one lady because you’ve got some grief in your life and then, you know, something, the HRT doesn’t work or the natural supplement doesn’t work or the combination does. There’s so many different options, but at least today we have options. At least today, we in my company, HappyLFU, we have solutions for people. We’re really proud of that. We have a lot of people who have had such great results.

 

And we know that because we have so many ladies within our groups taking our products, we know. We don’t think, we know. Having over one and half million ladies download our online assessment, great research. And it’s just over 20 % of the Australian population of women who are in perimenopause and menopause. So we know our statistics, we know what ladies need and want.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:49)

Good research base.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (37:02)

We polled our ladies in our Facebook group page and asked them what their main symptoms were and the top three were sleep, anxiety and weight gain. So we know that ⁓ those symptoms are the primary symptoms and we make products to suit those symptoms. So we pretty much have something for everyone. ⁓ We know that women are passing their products over to their

 

husbands as well. They’re getting great results. we don’t think we know.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:36)

They have mood swings too.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (37:38)

They

 

do, they do. But you know, I think the great thing for us is we don’t think we know what we’re talking about. We know what we’re talking about because we’ve been doing for 12 years. My business partner, he’s a hormonal specialist. All my staff are amazing, highly educated practitioners and people should feel safe with us.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:47)

It’s evidence based.

 

Yeah, yeah, that’s brilliant. How many in the organization Lisa, how many people do you employ?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (38:07)

  1. Some are contractors, some are full-time, part-time, but we are a remote business. By being remote, we can choose the best around Australia and around the world. We have people all over the world.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:23)

Having spent 30 years in executive search, used to pitch that as options rather than having to compromise based on only selecting the person who was available right in your market. I think COVID cracked that thinking wide open because all of a sudden it became possible.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (38:43)

That’s what makes us different to everyone else as well. We have a team of practitioners who are talking to and working with our ladies every single day. And for women in our Facebook group, it’s free of charge. They don’t have to pay hundreds of dollars to go and chat to a naturopath. We provide that for them.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:06)

So tell me as a 62 year old female, do the post menopause symptoms phase out and disappear over time? Where to from here for you and I? ⁓

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (39:21)

I

 

don’t know if you meant you’re 62 but I’m 63. There you go. I don’t feel it though.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:26)

Well I’m 62.

 

No, neither do I. Absolutely don’t.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (39:35)

I

 

think once menopause is over, which is 12 months for no period, done, the symptoms that you had leading up there don’t just stop, they linger. They continue and they linger and they finally start to peter off. Now, depending on how you looked after yourself in the previous phases will depend on how long or how severe those symptoms will continue. So for me now, ⁓

 

If I’m moody or cranky, my husband will say, have you been taking happy hormones? And I’ll say, no, you’re actually just giving me the shit. So there’s a difference, right?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:16)

That’s not an excuse for your crabby behaviour. No, I know.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (40:20)

No, he’s gorgeous. But every now and again, I’ll get a hot flush. So I’ve just been over in Quebec and Canada. It was minus 30, minus 20. And at some point I’m like, oh my God, I’ve got to this jacket off. And just all of a sudden I had a hot flush. And usually now I know if I’d had a wine, I get hot flush. If I have too much coffee, I get a hot flush. So now I can see the absolute relevance with what I just had.

 

to what I’m just getting now. So ⁓ I think another side effect of postmenopause is your tolerance for bullshits.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:50)

No.

 

post-murder pause or is that just age?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (41:05)

No, I don’t know. there’s a couple of things. I feel much calmer. Things that used to bother me just don’t anymore. I don’t care. I mean, if someone wants to do that or say that, you know what, it says more about you than me, I don’t care. And I’m able to move on. before, I’d be really reactive and I wouldn’t lie, it would sit with me for a long time. But I’m happy to know and feel

 

that all the symptoms that I’ve had for the last 20 years are finally just settling down. And that’s what happens. Everything settles down. So there is light at the end of the tunnel for all the women out there who are tearing their hair out, feeling like there’s something wrong with them, which is there’s nothing wrong with them. It’s just what your body’s doing. It’s just biology and you will get through it. Take a breath. Everything will be okay.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:00)

Beautiful. Lisa, I’m going to throw three quick questions at you if I could to bring today to a ⁓ conclusion. One thing you wish you’d known five years earlier.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (42:16)

⁓ One thing that I wished I’d known five years earlier was what was coming and I think like I’ve said it’s I mean I didn’t exercise physiology at uni and if everybody could do a course in a semester in biology they would understand. It’s all biology, it’s what your body is meant to do so don’t fight it just work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:43)

Yeah, it’s so true. One symptom women often dismiss, but they shouldn’t.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (42:49)

I think the big one knowing how we polled so many women is the sleep. I think if you can, once again, it’s really hard with, you know, moms that have got kids and work and sleep is the biggest thing. But if you can just try and prepare yourself for sleep at nighttime by making sure the room is cool and dark, even if you sleep in a separate room where there’s no noise or disruptions. I now wear an eye mask and I find that’s a lot better.

 

but just feeling that peace and contentment as you go to sleep. Everything’s done. I’m write my list so it’s not in my head, which I often did. I learned that from my mom. Everything for today has been done. There’s nothing more that I need to do today. So just take a breath and feel content that my day has finished.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (43:32)

Yep.

 

Yeah and to your point about the sleep I must admit even now Lisa I still find some nights I wake up and I’ve got a leg sticking out the side as my temperature control mechanism just to get some air on my foot so I don’t know whether they’ll ever go away or not.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:02)

I

 

I’ve worked out the pajama situation. I think if you wear a singlet top and just undies, like don’t have longs on your legs. And I think that I think I’ve got the combination right. So yeah, cause you can just put your arm out, but your legs aren’t hot. So ⁓ I put the air conditioning on my husband said, it’s not that hot. I go, you’re not me. So he’s like snuggled up in the blankets and, ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:12)

Yes.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:31)

But he says, come over here, know, come in for a cuddle.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:35)

last

 

thing you want to do because it makes you too hot.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:38)

Ten seconds like, okay babe, love you but you know, you’re too hot, too much body heat.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:45)

I can relate to that and I suspect there are many listening who will relate to that.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:50)

But I think to have a laugh about it every now and again because if you don’t laugh about it, you’re going to cry.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:59)

Now Lisa, do we find you? Because you mentioned there is ⁓ some online tools that people can jump on, on your website I presume, and access those.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (45:11)

Yeah, so the website is happyhealthyew.com.au and on there you’ll find a huge range of resources. But the main one is to download the online assessment. So that’ll give you a really good snapshot of where you are at this point in time. If you follow some of the things that we talk about, you can do that assessment again in six to 12 months time and see if symptoms have changed a little bit. Obviously we do have support, we have products that have been

 

proven to be really great for a lot of women. And then we ask people to join our community. there’s 203,000 women in one group. We have about six or seven different groups. So we’ve got a group for PCOS and endometriosis. We’ve got a teenage group. We’ve got a happy reset group, happy weight group. So there’s different groups of different subsets of people. But the main one is our happy, healthy new community. And I’m in there.

 

All our staff are in there. talk every single day. you know, we just want to, that’s, you know, I think if I had to summarize what I stand for now, going back to what we spoke up, spoke about first up was my whole life has been like a stepping stone to where I am now. And now I’m that woman who has, who has turned my lived experience into

 

light for other women. I’ve walked the path and now I walk beside women and help them along their way. I wanna see people I wanna see women stand on their own dais. I wanna see ladies stand up and go I did it. I feel I made I did it. You know I achieved this or I did that or I changed this or I went there or changed my life. Standing on your own dais

 

And it doesn’t have to be a huge achievement, but just even small achievements add up to make you feeling that life is worthwhile and life matters.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:15)

Yeah and that’s exactly what Power of Women is about because it’s through the lived experience and sharing of that through storytelling that we can offer resourcing to others be it mentoring formally or informally and that’s not to say that you don’t have to go through something to truly understand it but there’s loads of lived experience out there to be gleaned from others and I think we’re far more inclined

 

to share that now rather than to have all of these no-go zones of things that we don’t talk about. And that’s the benefit of hindsight and how lucky are we? We can actually access that. Thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa. I’m gonna add your website details onto the show notes. Be sure to follow the podcast and if you think this is an episode that somebody in your network can benefit from,

 

Pass it on, share it to them, bring it to their attention. And in terms of subscribing and following so that you know what fabulous next episodes are coming because there is a string of extraordinary guests in the lineup for 2026 and I look forward to sharing them with you. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 The Power of Women: Introduction to Menopause

03:09 Lisa’s Journey: From Elite Athlete to Menopause Advocate

06:05 Understanding Perimenopause: Signs and Symptoms

09:06 The Emotional Toll: Relationships and Mental Health

11:52 Generational Shifts: Talking About Menopause

15:02 Proactive Awareness: Tracking Hormonal Changes

17:58 The Importance of Community Support

20:58 Menopause in the Workplace: Challenges and Solutions

23:51 Managing Symptoms: Education vs. Management

26:55 Lifestyle Choices: The Jigsaw Puzzle of Health

30:06 Navigating HRT and Natural Therapies

32:53 The Future: Post-Menopause Life

36:04 Final Thoughts: Empowerment Through Knowledge

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Lisa at:

Website https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/

👉Women begin by completing a free online hormonal health assessment at: https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/pages/assessment

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lisacurry/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/licurry/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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Would You Say: Sure I Can Do That!

Would You Say: Sure I Can Do That!

by | Mar 30, 2026 | Career Change Over 50, Female Entrepreneur

If you have ever doubted your ability, this podcast will show you what becomes possible when you decide, “Sure. I can do that.”

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett interviews Claudia Chan Shaw: designer, curator, broadcaster and author, about building a portfolio career anchored in courage and commercial instinct.

From growing up in the Vivian Chan Shaw fashion house to exporting Australian knitwear globally, curating large-scale public art installations, co-hosting ABC TV’s Collectors, and leading international Art Deco tours, Claudia’s career defies single-lane thinking.

And if her face is familiar, perhaps you have seen her hanging in an art gallery, having sat for eleven Archibald Prize portraits.

 

➡️We explore :

Courage & self-belief

Portfolio careers and creative entrepreneurship

Why saying yes builds capability

Fashion legacy and the Powerhouse Museum collection

Exporting Australian design globally

Art Deco, collecting and cultural capital

Reinvention at 50 and beyond

Why women don’t need to choose just one identity

 

Claudia said:

“Sure. “I can do that.”

“You don’t have to limit yourself to anything.”

“Working in the creative industries, you never know what the next gig is going to be.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

FULL TRANSCRIPT_CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:02)

When you hear the words power of women, what’s the first lived experience that comes to mind?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (00:09)

For me, Claudia Chan Shaw, it is a powerful mother. And having a powerful mother who raised a family of five children on her own, from the minute I was born, I was experiencing the power of one hell of an incredible woman.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:25)

Would you have the courage to say yes to opportunities and trust yourself to work out the how later? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast and we’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. Today I have the privilege to showcase the incredible career of Claudia Chan Shaw.

 

A woman whose career has never been limited to one sector or one role. Claudia’s career spans fashion, television, radio, curation. She’s an author, public speaker, collector, visual artist, cultural tour leader, and business owner. A career shaped by curiosity, legacy, and a willingness to say yes before knowing exactly where that yes might lead.

 

So today we’re going to explore what becomes possible when you trust your capacity to work things out as you go. Claudia Chan Shaw, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (01:36)

Thank you, Di. It’s so lovely to be talking to you in this area rather than across the dinner table.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:43)

I quite like a cross a dinner table, we don’t get the fantastic backdrop for those who are watching us on YouTube as we have today. What is in the background of your screenshot?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (01:58)

Okay so welcome to my home. ⁓ I have to preface this with, this is not the house of a crazy person, ⁓ I am sitting in front of a three meter high robot rat and why would that be she says and next to me is a giant giant key that winds the robot up. was, it’s a design.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:22)

We might be talking AI.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (02:24)

Now this is the real thing. It’s a robot rat because I designed it for the Sydney Lunar Festival during the year of the rat and it was one of the hero designs as a piece of public artwork and one of them lives in my lounge room. There were nine.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:40)

wow, now can understand why nine of them don’t live in your lounge room at that height. But for those of you who jump on the YouTube channel and have a look at this episode, this is the most divine display of Art Deco, both with how Claudia’s dressed and then with this robot image behind her. It’s just divine. But let’s, I digress. Claudia, what was your first job?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (03:10)

I was thinking about this and do we go with the first gig I actually pitched for or do we go with when I was five years old being selected to be the face of an overseas telecommunications ad? let’s with Okay, five years old, little Eurasian person holding a telephone. It kind of predates the phone home to Italy ads.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:25)

One.

 

First job? Where did the money come

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (03:37)

First

 

job. ⁓ don’t even know. Hopefully it went to feed our family.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:42)

There we go good good line good

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (03:45)

could have been a favour, could have been a favour, but that was my first gig.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:48)

first gig at five that trumps mine. So you’ve, you’ve got this tendency to say yes and work out the how later. I’m a control freak and an A type personality. And I have to say that scares the crap out of me because I don’t like surprises. Where did that instinct come from?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (04:14)

⁓ I think because I’ve always been told you can do anything you set your mind to and also working in the creative industries you never know what the next gig is going to be so if something piques your interest and you go you know what I can do that or somebody says to you would you like to blah blah blah okay yeah I can do that and then I always say yes and then go what have I done

 

And so it doesn’t mean that you go into every time you say yes with this. I am so confident about what I’m going to do for these people that it’s just not funny. It’s a wonderful, healthy trepidation. Wow, okay, what have I bitten off and how am I going to tackle it? And am I really qualified for it? But so far so good. And I always say yes. And mainly, I think, because working in the creative industries.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (05:08)

the opportunities are within scope. But how do you cherry, do you cherry pick or you’ve just said you say yes to everything? There must be a couple of no-go’s.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (05:20)

⁓ Yes yes yes there are I say yes to many opportunities and sometimes the most unexpected things ⁓ and some because I’m in this area where I’m sometimes quite visible you get all sorts of ridiculous offers coming out of the woodwork you know open your email every day and this would you like to appear here or would you like to do this and sometimes it’s no I wouldn’t. ⁓ I don’t necessarily want to want to associate me.

 

With what it is you’re wanting me to do or promote so. It’s generally yes and and the yeses have led to a very varied career one might these days used to call somebody like me a slashy now they call me a multi hyphenate.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:09)

multi-hyphenate because I was going to say if I bumped in what what’s the elevator pitch what’s the elevator pitch of who who you are what you do

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (06:19)

Yeah, that’s always the question at the dinner party, isn’t it? And what is it that you do? I’m a brain surgeon. End of story. ⁓ Not a brain surgeon. So what do I do? I always say designer first because that is what I trained for. That is what I lived in most of my life. And through design, everything else has come out. So designer first. Then I say I’m a TV and radio presenter. I’m an author. I’m a visual artist. I’m a curator.

 

So and and and cultural tour leader and public speaker. So everything goes out of the next. Well, and then this great look of confusion comes over them or they get out on level three and leave me there in the elevator. That’s too hard.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:05)

Yeah, because it’s taking you three floors to get all of that out.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (07:09)

I know, know, so it’s too much. When I have to fill out, you know when you’re coming into the country and you’re filling out your immigration landing card and it says profession?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:21)

Yeah, that’s a good point. What do you put there?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (07:24)

I designer because design is the basis for every every other jumping off point in my life.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:31)

and which qualifies having this divine three meter image, statue, robot rat.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (07:39)

He’s 3D.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:43)

where did you have him built? I mean that’s just the most extraordinary piece of art.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (07:49)

I know, it’s pretty fabulous.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:51)

How do you know where to start to get that done, for example?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (07:54)

Well, because this was done for the Sydney Lunar Festival, there are whole range of ⁓ companies that have engineers and artisans that are able to take an idea on paper into a very, large 3D piece of work that is going to withstand wind and rain and crowds and anything else that…

 

it needs to cover, safety-wise, to be a piece of public art for the city of Sydney. So there’s a range of wonderful, wonderful makers that have to pitch ⁓ to the city of Sydney to make the ideas that the artists come up with.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:34)

Yeah, wow. So let’s come back to design and let’s, if we could bring it back to perhaps the origins in fashion, because I studied fashion design and there was a raft of Australian, well known Australian designers at that point in time in the 80s that I looked to as extraordinary. And one of those was your mother, Vivian Chan Shaw.

 

and I remember her work vividly and I understand the collection now sits in the Powerhouse Museum, all parts of, we’ll come back to that. Tell us about the brand and the persona behind the brand and then your involvement.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (09:26)

Okay, so it starts in 1972 when my mother is a very creative woman, no design training at all, but just naturally gifted. She trained as a musician, went to the Sydney Conservatory of Music, didn’t think she had what it takes to be a concert pianist. So then she discovers she’s married with all these little children on her own, she needs to make a living. So she goes to work for a bridal company where she’s the owner of the company says,

 

You can sketch, we’re selling beautiful fabrics for bride or frocks. Can you sketch something for this lady and show her what to do with some fabric? So she starts becoming a fashion coordinator and designer. After she’s made a lot of money for a lot of people around Sydney, she thinks, I can do this on my own. So Vivian opens a boutique under the Sydney Hilton Hotel in 1972 and she’s making garments out of jersey and silk and…

 

very elaborate detail and decoration on them. Preface this with her mother ⁓ had a little children’s wear shop in Sydney and Crown Street and prior to that in the 1930s in Shanghai where she used to make exquisite children’s wear. Mum grows up learning how to make little handmade roses, helping her mother in the business, fast forward to opens her own business. The Vivienne Chan Shaw label takes off

 

But Vivian decides, well, I’m using fabric. Other people can buy the same fabric. How do I become unique? How does my look set itself apart? So she decides to go into knitwear because she had always knitted, taught to knit when she was five years old by her grandmother. And so she started putting a few hand knits into the shop. People went mad for them. And then she started to hand loom on a domestic flatbed knitting machine, one by one, not cut and sewn. So the whole business

 

starts with a handmade knitted product. Who the hell does that in Australia? It is. It is.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:27)

It’s pretty intense.

 

So did that evolve into ⁓ those being constructed in garment factories or did it remain hand loom design by design? How do you scale that?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (11:46)

Yeah, always. Well, we say it’s cottage industry proudly. ⁓ No mass production. No mass production. Everything made by hand in Sydney. We had a decent size team. But of course, it limits your production. But that’s OK, because we don’t want to be in it. It is. It is. And you can truly say, because each piece is handmade, that each piece is unique. The hand is different every time it’s

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:04)

Yeah.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (12:15)

touches a design. So it goes from retailing under the Hilton Hotel to in 1986 Vivian looks across the road and the Queen Victoria building is coming alive and she says that’s the place to be and moved across the to the QVB. Indeed. And how many years was that? 28 years in the QVB. she’d started in 72, moved in 86 to the QVB.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:34)

you there?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (12:44)

We closed the QVB in 2014, so 28 years, but in that time not just retailing, but wholesaling and exporting to the USA, the UK, Germany, Switzerland, New Zealand, even Papua New Guinea to this crazy group of expats. So the label, while small and handmade, had this reach that was really quite extraordinary for a little business.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:09)

So when did the power of one being your mother become the power of two with you added into the business?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (13:16)

Officially in 1986 when the business became incorporated as a company and I became Vivian’s business partner and co-designer. Prior to that when I was about 11 I would be falling asleep in the fitting room at the Hilton and then going, oh can we go home now mum? And coming out and there’s a woman looking on the rack and go, Mrs. Jones I’ve got something fabulous for you, look at this. So this precocious little monkey is selling.

 

and on the floor and doing book work ⁓ and working with my mother since I was a kid. we also, when we started selling to the United States, I took a year off college to embark on this journey to go door knocking across America from San Francisco to New York. And just two little ladies just knocking on doors and we did it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:06)

How did that go? Did that open doors?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (14:10)

It sure did. It was interesting because before we left, we went to see Austrade. this is 1982. And there weren’t a lot of fashion exports going on at that stage. It was pretty early. And Austrade didn’t really know how to deal with placing Australian handmade fashion with different connections overseas when they used a primary industry or something like that. So we

 

Went to us trade and some of the office trade offices overseas were very, very helpful, letting us use their office to make phone calls, set up appointments, do showings, and others were absolutely hopeless and had no idea what to do. ⁓ Some were so wonderful that they dragged our bags and helped us take bags to boutiques. And then we would literally door knock. So we’d do a stakeout, peer through the window of a shop and go, that looks like us. That looks good. I would overdress.

 

unbearably. So I’ve got everything on. And then we’d bowl into the shop, no appointment, and walk in and say, hi, I’m Claudia. I’m from Australia. And we have something fabulous to show you. the Americans would go, and this is, know, like Australia is pretty hot in the USA. ⁓ my God, your accent is darling. And so we go in and the staff would look at us and go, hang on, hang on. I’m just going to go get the owner because these are owner operated stores in those days.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:23)

Yeah, really cut.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (15:38)

And then I pull out the portfolio, start showing, and they go, my God. And I go, mom, come in. We’re on. Exactly. She dragged the bags in and we’re pulling things out. And that’s how we started. And two of the stores, ⁓ one in Chicago and one in New York, we approached them in that way. We took our orders and we sold to them for over 25 years. So it was just the right fit, the right time.

 

the right way to do business. tried that approach in, I tried the door knocking in on Rodeo Drive in LA. I was thrown out of the store. I was out of the store for loitering around the racks. Ma’am, would you leave? Excuse me, ma’am. No. Do you have an appointment? No. We tried some big stores without appointments. And then when we did get appointments, it just

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:18)

slightly different style.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (16:35)

You know it was some buyer that was bigger than Ben Hur and buying from multi stores and it wasn’t the way to do it. So you know the door knocking was hokey and then in the UK ⁓ by this time I’ve done an export marketing skills course at Monash University.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:53)

He says, hope he doesn’t cut it.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (16:55)

He doesn’t cut it and so and they send us to Los Angeles to do a field trip and all these different products from chef chef uniforms to ⁓ a mainstream fashion to this this quirky handmade high-end label and ⁓ Made the appointments went to Cal Mart where all the agents are saw all the people I needed to see and what do I do at the end? I’m not taking this bag of samples home. So I go door knocking and get rid of them ⁓

 

But now I know the difference. I have the desk learning. 5 % of the population of the United States can buy your product. Great. 5 % is huge.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (17:33)

5 % will do, thank you very much. That’s right. That’s all right. But seriously, that has to significantly feed into the say yes and work it out later mentality.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (17:47)

I hadn’t thought of that, I think so, because it takes a lot of kutspa.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (17:52)

That’s the word I was reaching for.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (17:54)

to roll into a high-end boutique New York City yeah and I’m here

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:01)

Yeah, yeah, no, that is truly, truly extraordinary. So how what what sits now in the powerhouse museum as a reflection of the brand?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (18:15)

So we have my wedding gown Sitting in sitting in the powerhouse so Vivian my mom and I designed that together and it was like You can have anything you want when you’re a designer and you make things for your wedding gown It was the hardest thing ever. We’re like, do I want? I know I didn’t want strapless. I know I didn’t want white. I know I don’t want a sweetheart neckline No, it’s white and black

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:36)

Why is it?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (18:41)

And so it’s a very special frock and it has been in several exhibitions since it was in the Powerhouse Museum’s 200 Years of Australian Wedding Fashion exhibition, which was a very proud moment for us. And it’s been in an exhibition in Bendigo on wedding frocks. It’s been in two Vivienne Chan Shaw retrospectives. So that’s the main one. And then they also have garments from different decades, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s. So they’ve got…

 

designs from each of those key times.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:14)

So there’s another title we didn’t add to that list of skills and titles, job titles that you have, house model in other words. It’s clearly you’ve been a walking talking billboard for the brand for most of your life.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (19:24)

right? Yes, that’s true.

 

That’s true. When I was about 17, my mother sent me off to June Daly Watkins Modeling Agency. so I did the…

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:42)

connection

 

for our baby boomers listening

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (19:45)

Yes, we know how to walk and apply nail polish and makeup so I went to Dally’s and they signed me up to be on their books as a model as the shortest girl on the books and Then I transitioned and went across to Chadwick modeling agency and was the shortest girl on their books ⁓ Sometimes I felt like I was the mascot honestly

 

⁓ Too short for main catwalk unless they sent me out first or last with no frame of reference for height. Reference of course. Yes, but mainly TV commercials and print. naturally I was modeling for our label and it made sense because I’m available. I’m there.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:36)

Reasonable

 

price point, what’s the rate card for? Yeah.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (20:39)

I’m cheap.

 

We’ll work for food. And I think when you’re selling fashion, and you know this, Di, that it’s not just a frock on a coat hanger and it’s going to sell itself, especially when it’s something a little bit off beat. ⁓ It needs a personality behind it. When we would do showings for wholesale clients or export clients, I would be walking and talking and explaining and showing how it worked. So that works well too.

 

when it’s a very individual way of selling.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:12)

What is that fabulous line from Coco Chanel, it’s not luxury if it’s not comfortable, is that something along those lines? And that would play into the beautiful brand of Vivienne Chan Shaw because niche gives, it moves, it breathes, it’s got all of those, all of those.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (21:35)

It hand washes, it’s forgivable if you add or lose. It’s timeless. It’s timeless.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:41)

Yeah,

 

yeah, which is extraordinary. So that creates a legacy. What does legacy mean to you? Why is that part important?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (21:54)

⁓ I’d be may have gathered just from my my my gushing about how important our mother is to to our family because she was our you know our everything our mother our father our our everything ⁓ and ultimately my my business partner my mate. ⁓ It’s important legacy because she never blew her own trumpet she’s decided mouthpiece yeah wave the flag silver label go here go there so she she.

 

was always letting the work speak for itself and ⁓ deep down she’s really quite shy in that way whereas I’m not shy and I’m very happy to wave the flag and do it because I believe in it. the legacy is really important because with this lovely product we were at so many milestone occasions for our customers.

 

We were at their weddings, we were at the christenings, we were at their birthdays, we were at their celebrations. And so, and they would share those moments with us. So it wasn’t just a frock that you threw on, it was something that was part of their life, part of the milestones, part of the family. And I don’t know how I felt when somebody rang me and said, we buried mum in one of your outfits. And how do you feel about that?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:13)

Yeah, there’s

 

a couple of ways of feeling about that. Yeah. Yeah.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (23:18)

Yeah, so because it was her favorite because she loved it so much because she was beautiful. ⁓ So it’s very, very powerful. Yeah, it’s very powerful. And when I go lecturing around the country, ⁓ people come up to me and pull out photos on their phone saying, I bought this from your mom in 1970 blah, and my granddaughter wears it now.

 

Or I was in Singapore a week ago and I’m sitting in the writers bar in Singapore with a group of Aussies and one of them sees a friend of hers and they’re chatting away and the friend comes over and says I just want to show you something Claudia and I said good to meet you and it’s a picture of her mother wearing one of our outfits to her wedding and I’m in Singapore last week. Incredible.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:10)

Yeah,

 

that is absolutely magic. You’re listening to The Power of Women and I am talking to the epitome of power of women, Claudia and about her mother and coming up we’re going to talk about the curiosity that connects Claudia’s incredible career.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

I am talking with the multi-talented Claudia Chan Shaw and Art Deco is a deep passion and it shapes your work as a curator, as an author, as a collector, as a cultural guide, Claudia. What is it about Art Deco and collecting that’s captured your attention?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (25:10)

⁓ Well I suppose we have to do this chronologically. Everything starts with collecting absolutely everything so as a as a kid I’m on the couch now die it all began when I was a child as a kid I was a bit of a weird nut.

 

Okay, all right. I’m on your virtual couch. I was a bit of a weird nut as a kid. I’m obsessive about certain things that I’m interested in and ⁓ I was obsessive about Humphrey Bogart as an 11 year old. Now he’s, you know, dead, not particularly handsome. ⁓ I know it was pretty unusual. Other girls are in love with Rod Stewart or something and I’m in love with a dead movie star. And so I’m absolutely obsessed.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:48)

…is an 11-year-old.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (26:01)

My collecting started with Humphrey Bogart. So I had a poster of him that cost me a dollar and then I was buying lobby cards. was getting buying books, anything to do with Bogart t-shirts, badges that I used to make and wear this high school. And the collecting starts there. I even have a Maltese Falcon, which is, know, 1941 Humphrey Bogart.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:27)

Quirky kid at 11.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (26:29)

I weird, was a little unusual. ⁓ So the collecting starts there. And then I move from Humphrey Bogart and I used to also take a tape recorder to the cinema and record his movies, pre-videos and learn all the dialogue in the bathroom. My brother’s banging on the door asking me when I was going to be finished.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:51)

Anyway, and so there’s passion. Yeah.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (26:53)

Obsessive, obsessive. And then I moved to collecting tin toys and robots. So we talked about the robot behind me, robots feature. Tin toys and robots because when I was about 15, I sold all of my childhood toys at the Balmain markets in Sydney because I was enterprising but also

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:16)

That’s the salesperson coming through.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (27:18)

But I thought I was too grown up. I’m too sophisticated to talk for toys So I sold them all and the minute I sold them I thought you idiot you just sold your memories the things that you loved your little your little comfort things So I have been overcompensating ever since by collecting tin toys and robots Tin toys, so the collecting thing

 

then transitions into collecting tin toys and robots. Then through toys and collecting, opportunity comes when I’m asked to be a guest on the ABC TV show Collectors. And I go on.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:05)

⁓ sorry, that’s another show. is. That’s another show.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (28:08)

That’s right. But I could have ended up with Dexter the Robot, couldn’t You could have. So I’m a guest on Collectors showing off my toys, waxing lyrical about this and fitting into that that canon of crazy collectors. And then shortly after I appear as a guest, I get a call from the ABC saying, would you like to audition for a role as a presenter on Collectors? And I say, yes, I can do that.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:13)

Good. ⁓

 

Hey, I can do that.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (28:38)

I can do that so I audition and I get the role ⁓ as a presenter on collectors. Now the interesting thing is that I thank Humphrey Bogart for getting the role because at the audition they said to me bring along something you can talk about. Don’t bring a robot because we’ve just had four minutes of you in a segment talking about your toys. Bring something you can talk about. So I brought along

 

replica of the Maltese Falcon from the Humphrey Bogart 1941 film. And I’m going on, talking about this object and I get a call the next day, you got the job. And I said that night I watched the Maltese Falcon and it was thank you Humphrey Bogart for channeling my interests so that you kind of become an expert on whatever your area of interest is. So collecting leads to a role on collectors.

 

⁓ Which leads to an email from Harper Collins saying to me, could you write a book on collecting for us? Sure, I can do that. So I write a book on collecting and all its various facets, interview collectors, everything from Rolls Royces to Snowdomes. ⁓ And so that now makes me an author. Because of collectors and because of the profile that I now have, even though I’ve always been interested in these things.

 

I ⁓ receive an email saying, would you be interested in leading a tour to Shanghai on Art Deco?

 

I can do that. Sure.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:19)

Because in the connection it’s just extraordinary.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (30:23)

So the art deco thing again goes back to growing up with watching American films from the 1930s and 40s and these fantastic black and white scenes and wonderful environments. I’ve always been interested in art deco. In the 80s when we were exporting, I would go to antique shops and collectible shops looking at art deco objects. ⁓ I grew up with Erete prints on the wall, the great Russian born

 

Paris-based ⁓ fashion artist who did the most incredible designs for film and Harper’s Bazaar and stage. So I grew up with Airtay on the wall, who is the epitome of the Art Deco woman on the walls. ⁓ So can I lead an Art Deco tour to Shanghai? Sure, I can do that. And then I get an email from the Art Gallery of New South Wales. Would you like to lecture at the Art Gallery of New South Wales?

 

we’re thinking of a topic abstraction in design. Sure, I can do that. So it starts off this, so TV career then then ⁓ and then I’m interviewed on a radio station authoring, lecturing, tour tour leading.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:41)

Yeah

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (31:43)

⁓ And then also I’m interviewed on Eastside radio and the after we come off air the presenters asked me, would you like to be a co-presenter on the radio station? Sure, I can do that. So this is the yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. ⁓ Anyway, so collecting leads to Art Deco. The ⁓ Art Deco interest, as I say, was always there, but now focusing on

 

Art Deco in different countries around the world Shanghai, New York, Miami, Singapore, ⁓ all over the world and also an interest in art and design because my degree is in design. ⁓ Everything just comes together. collecting Art Deco, it’s the jumping off point for my later career.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:30)

It does.

 

Wow. And how many, over what period of time did this start to really snowball and shape itself as this portfolio of extraordinary roles that you’ve been fulfilling?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (32:57)

The TV appearance was in about 2010, think. 2011. No, about 2010. And then I was presenting on air on the ABC in 2011. So the TV kicked off there. But there was TV in my late teens and early 20s when I was a house model for Good Morning Sydney on Channel 10.

 

So I wasn’t afraid of touching that.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:28)

Who

 

hosted Good Morning Sydney in those days?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (33:32)

I was Maureen Gival. And I was in a thing called the Sheila segment for Sheila magazine. And it was an advertorial segment and I was their house model. So I wasn’t afraid of a TV studio.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:49)

Claudia, if I was to say is your career at its richest point now, would that be a fair statement?

 

Absolutely. And in the spirit of it being power of women and as we age being more visible with the opportunity to be more impactful than ever before, could I ask you how old you are?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (34:19)

how old am I? I have to do the maths on this. What year is it? I’m ⁓ 62.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:26)

You’re 62 and this portfolio. And you somewhere thereabouts. Yeah, there we go.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (34:35)

I could be 63.

 

I think, yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:40)

  1. And Claudia’s going, when is this podcast coming out? I might be 63 by the time the date goes live. Very good theory. Now, in terms of that, I mean, that is the absolute epitome of power of women saying, yes, keep going. No line in the sand of where this ends. You just keep going with this whilst this

 

Fabulous experience, Kate’s presenting opportunities.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (35:14)

Certainly I’m not stopping. Unless I was unwell or not here anymore, there’s no reason to stop. And interestingly, a friend of mine said, when I turned 50, she said to me, it’s so amazing you’re doing all this new stuff at your age. was bristle, bristle, bristle, bristle. 50 was the most amazing, amazing time. I turned 50.

 

And in my fiftieth year I had my first solo art exhibition. I published my book. It was just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And I thought, here we go. Yeah, it was the beginning. And it just keeps getting more and more interesting.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:56)

Yeah, that’s extraordinary. Now, coming back to collecting, must ask, given ⁓ I ⁓ am aware that you live in a ⁓ Sydney home in the inner city suburbs, so I’m going to assume it’s not sprawling, but you’ve got a three-foot tin robot behind you.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (36:23)

meter.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:24)

Sorry, three meter robot behind you and you are a collector. What does your home look like?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (36:33)

Well, it doesn’t look like yours, Di. It’s not minimal. It’s a cottage in the inner west of Sydney. And I like to say my husband and I are maximalists. So it is chock full of goodies. So I look around me. On every wall, there is artwork with about that much space between each image. So there’s artwork on every wall, virtually from floor to ceiling. Floor to ceiling books, display cases.

 

full of collectibles, tin toys, robots, ⁓ fossils. Everywhere I look, there’s something. And it’s interesting, because there’s two types of people who come to our house. Those who look around and go, I don’t know where my eye will rest. There’s just so much to look at. And those who walk straight through the door, sit down at the dinner table, and didn’t notice a thing.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:25)

extraordinary and nothing in between. but are there many of

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (37:28)

I don’t understand how that works.

 

Interesting. ⁓ Sometimes if we have a party and there’s a lot of people, it’s split down. Probably three quarters are spending the party just staring at objects and asking about the provenance or something. is. It’s pretty rich. And those who just say nothing, which is interesting. I can’t explain that. can’t explain that. Maybe it’s a option.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:00)

could be over

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (38:01)

could be overwhelmed or repulsive all this stuff I could not live like that they might be

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:06)

be why

 

dust at all maybe maybe that’s concerning them yeah

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (38:11)

yeah what a terrible concern

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:14)

What

 

a terrible concern. Exactly. That doesn’t leave time for saying yes to all these wonderful opportunities if you do that. So not only are you immersed in art, Claudia, but you have also been the subject of multiple Archibald Prize ⁓ paintings. Yeah. Paintings. Yeah. You have sat for how many?

 

artists at this point in your life.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (38:46)

11.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:47)

Eleven.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (38:49)

11.

 

So of those 11 sittings, ⁓ three of the artists are Archibald finalists. Four of those artists are finalists in the Salon des Riffusées, which is the other Archie. One is a finalist in the Porsche-Geech ⁓ Memorial Prize. ⁓ One is a finalist in the Doug Moran Portrait Prize. really, there’s only about two who didn’t get across the line with a major Australian.

 

portrait prize but yeah three times hung in the Archibald which is which is a thrill it’s it’s and it’s very flattering to be asked it’s it’s very

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:27)

Lovely. But to be asked 11 times, that is extraordinary. ⁓ as a character for a portrait, I can see why. Once our audience who doesn’t know you, if anybody doesn’t already know who you are, they will be able to see that. What is it like having somebody else interpret you?

 

on canvas. How does that feel?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (39:59)

It’s interesting, ⁓ yet another example of saying yes. Can I thank you? ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:06)

Fingers

 

crossed and hope for the best.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (40:09)

⁓ Sometimes when the artwork is unveiled, there’s a lot of trepidation because you think, how do they see me? What aspects of me are they going to choose to accentuate or ignore? Or do we just go face value? What do you see? ⁓ And on occasion when the painting has been revealed, it’s, ooh!

 

Ooh! Isn’t it big?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:43)

What’s that code for?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (40:45)

Wow, it’s huge. you don’t always, sometimes it’s, while it’s flattering to be asked, sometimes it’s not always flattering as an end result. you know, you love everything in my eyes, in my eyes. But as a visual artist, I also respect 100 % whatever the artist comes up with because that

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:59)

Yeah

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (41:14)

is their vision and that’s the way they chose to portray me for that painting. So I respect that but I don’t want to own all of them.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:26)

I was going, and that was going to be my question. Do you own any of them?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (41:31)

I do. My husband Stuart calls this house the shrine. ⁓ She’s taken over. There’s one in the bedroom, there’s one in the spare bedroom, there’s one in the dining room, that’s only a little one. There’s one in the study in the hallway. Yeah, this is shrine. Yeah. So it sounds horrible, doesn’t it?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:37)

to Claudia.

 

No, no, and I must admit we have the good fortune of having, ⁓ my husband George has only been ⁓ asked to sit twice and the second time didn’t get submitted and ⁓ it was probably one of those paintings where we felt about it. But the principal one,

 

features in our entrance hall and it’s large, it’s not three metres, but it’s well over one metre and it is magnificent. is it a photographic portrayal of George? No, it’s the artist telling the story of his Armenian Greek lineage through the narrative on canvas and it is just

 

wonderful and it is a very cherished piece of art. So I can understand why Stuart has said build a shrine. think it’s a beautiful thing to do. ⁓ Beautiful thing to do. extraordinary. Well, what an incredible career. If you had thought back to all of those years ago as an 11 year old, could you have imagined half of this coming together that you would have said yes to?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (43:21)

No, but interestingly, when I was little, when I was really, really young, I thought I was going to be a doctor. Ha ha. That didn’t last long, that dream, because I was hopeless at maths and science and would rather colour in the book instead of read it ⁓ for the maths. ⁓ But when I was at college, I did a degree in visual communication design at Sydney College of the Arts.

 

One of the first projects we had in first year was like a visual diary of where we saw ourselves. And in that visual diary, I had me sitting on a studio camera, you know, the old studio cameras that they wheel around the studio with a big camera on it, TV station studio camera, with an ABC logo on it.

 

And this is, you know, like first year of college. And I want, I’d always wanted to work in television. And when I wanted to be a doctor, I was also going to be an author. So it’s kind of interesting that the way that that turned out. And, and before I went into the family business and, and became a partner, my mother said to me, what am I going to do now that you finished college?

 

what are you going to do? And I was specializing in photography and film. And I thought I wanted to be a still life photographer as in product photography, make something simple, look beautiful. And my mother said to me, I offer you a partnership, not through nepotism, but because you’re capable. And if you worked with me since you were a kid, do you accept? And I thought, yeah, I’ll take a partnership over being somebody’s assistant. Big head, big head.

 

But that dream to be doing photography, now my visual art is expressed through photography and that’s what I exhibit. the dreams…

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:27)

You’ve manifested it along the way.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (45:29)

have

 

have come through yeah which is

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:32)

Yeah, it is.

 

Well, there’s a lot of drive behind that, but there is a vision and a desire and a passion and a talent all wrapped together that has created this absolutely extraordinary career that you have built and absolutely exploded out onto the stage over the last 10 or 15 years. Quite extraordinary.

 

Some rapid fire questions to close for you today, Claudia. One yes that changed everything.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (46:13)

Collectors.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:16)

Best example of where saying yes and working it out later paid off.

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (46:22)

⁓ taking on role as a curator for the Sydney Chinese New Year Festival for three years.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:28)

And finally, what advice would you give a woman who feels pulled in many directions but fears she should just choose one?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (46:38)

You don’t have to limit yourself to anything. I don’t believe in that. Just because you train to be something doesn’t mean that’s what you need to be for rest of your life. Don’t be afraid to say yes. Don’t be afraid to have a lot of balls in the air. And if you feel frustrated, drop some of the balls. But go for something because it interests you, because you’ll learn from it, because you think you can master it. And if you don’t master it, use one of the other balls. But don’t limit yourself to one.

 

if that’s the way you’re being pulled.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:09)

Yeah, I absolutely love that. Claudia, you’ve just got back off a recent tour from Singapore. Are there more tours in the wind for 2026?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (47:21)

Yes, in May I’m taking a group on an Art Nouveau tour to Spain and it’s from Gaudí to Guggenheim. So we’re going through Spain, we’re going to Bilbao to the Guggenheim Museum up there, we’re going to Madrid and then finishing in Barcelona to study the work of the wonderful Mr. Gaudí.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:41)

So how, if somebody’s interested in jumping onto your tours, how do they do that?

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (47:47)

So the tours are through the Art Gallery Society in New South Wales, the World Art Tours, but if they go to Renaissance Tours, which is renasancetours.com.au, and just type in Claudia Chan Shaw or Spain or look at the list of wonderful tours offered, they will find many, many special interest tours on the Renaissance Tours.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (48:09)

website. ⁓

 

CLAUDIA CHAN SHAW [GUEST] (48:17)

Yeah, Collectors is no longer up anymore, but the last show that I’ve been working on is Antiques Down Under, that’s available to watch online now.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (48:28)

nine now. Fantastic. So there’s plenty of Claudia available out there. But what I would like to close with today as just wrapping up everything that we’ve heard from Claudia today. I think ⁓ in essence, Claudia did that with the response to her final question of, do not limit yourself and this wonderful ⁓ resulting career that has come from

 

not being afraid to say yes, to take a risk and to work out the how later. Claudia is just an example of one of the most diverse, extraordinary and compelling careers that has come as a result of that. We have a fair dose of talent and chutzpah beneath it and the ability to sell because I think there is.

 

an ability to actually take that to market that underpins everything that Claudia has done. And then if you said, where does that come back to? There’s an enormous dose of self-belief and I can’t underestimate that enough. And if you have somebody in your sphere who you think needs to have a small injection of self-belief and

 

an example of taking a risk and what you can do. Share this episode and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next upcoming one. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 The Power of Women: A Personal Journey

09:04 Claudia Chan Shaw: A Multifaceted Career

18:01 Legacy and Family Influence in Fashion

25:10 The Art of Collecting and Curating

34:01 Embracing Opportunities and Lifelong Learning

46:03 Advice for Women: Embrace Your Journey

 

Connect with Di:

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Find Claudia at:

Website https://claudiachanshaw.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudia-chan-shaw-20706123/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/claudiachanshaw/?hl=en

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/claudia.chanshaw/

 

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