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The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

by | Dec 8, 2025 | Female Author, Female Empowerment, Visibility

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Carlii Lyon joins Di Gillett to discuss her book Courage to Be – Small Steps for a Big Life, and to explore what it really takes to put yourself out there and the 3 thoughts that keep you invisible.

Former international publicist Carlii Lyon spent years building other people’s brands, from supermodel Miranda Kerr to global icons before realising she had become invisible herself.

Carlii unpacks these three universal thoughts that hold people back, how Future Self Psychology helps you act for the person you’re becoming, and why intuition might just be your most underrated leadership skill.

You’ll Hear:

  • The three universal thoughts that hold people back from visibility
  • How to build a purpose-driven personal brand using the four P’s: Promise, Packaging, Position, Promotion
  • The difference between positional influence and personal influence
  • Why “we” language often keeps women small
  • How to start before you’re ready and why intuition is your edge.

Key learnings:

  • Visibility is not vanity – it’s vitality
  • Start before you’re ready – there’s magic in action
  • Intuition is your inner intelligence – create quiet to hear it
  • Think of your career as a brand partnership with the organisation you represent.

Carlii said:

“When we have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives.”

“Most people think if their work’s good enough, it will be seen. It won’t – you have to promote it.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (00:03)

Well, it’s a fear factor. Worry of how they’ll be judged. It’s, you know, there’s that idea of if I put my head, what’s the saying, if I put my head over the- the parapet. Yes, you know, I’m gonna be shot down.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (00:25)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs. Those moments that often don’t make the headlines but

 

absolutely should. So join the conversation and please subscribe wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts and be part of the power of women community.

 

What does it really take to be seen? Not just for what you do, but for who you are. Today’s guest knows a thing or two about visibility and what it really takes to put yourself out there. Carlii Lyon is a former international publicist who represented some of the most recognizable names in the world. From supermodel Miranda Kerr to bestselling authors,

 

and global brands like Microsoft and Volvo. Carlii has also just released her book, Courage to Be, the ultimate guide for anyone to step out from behind the scenes, embrace visibility, and live a bigger life. Carlii Lyon, welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (01:57)

Thank you so much, Di. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:02)

You’re most welcome. Carlii, you have so eloquently described yourself as a high school dropout who started her PR agency at 21, which at that point is such a brave move. How did you start your business from that base and how did you build this incredible client base?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:26)

Yeah, well from dropping out of school or being politely asked to leave at 15. At 15? At 15, yeah. it was a school. I did everything. Everything you could consider a naughty teenager to do, I ticked it off the list. Like I was a high achiever.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:40)

KARA.

 

You look like the picture of angelic behaviour.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:56)

⁓ thank you. Well, I hope my teenage boys believe that as well, but I promise I wasn’t at that point. So from 15 to 21, when you think of it, that’s a seven year gap of being out in the world. And my dad said to me when I left school, he said, well, if you’re not going back to school, you have to work. And the next day I…

 

started an apprenticeship as a hairdresser because I was determined not to go back to school. So I did go out into the world of work for quite a while as a hairdresser and I did waitressing and all of those wonderful things that you tend to do, you know, as you’re deciding what you want to do as a grownup. So that was a long time out in the world working. So it definitely wasn’t

 

You know, I see 21 year olds today that are coming straight out of uni and the idea of starting a business straight out of uni whilst there are definitely some that are brave enough to do that. I feel like because I had seven years out in the world, it made it a lot easier. It’s, it is a runway. It is a runway. And I always looked older than I was. Which made it. No, no, no.

 

Thank you. take that as a compliment. But in terms of how did I launch the business, I’ll give you a real abridged version. I had a gentleman who’s still my mentor today say to me, Kali, I think you’d be good in PR. And just based off that one comment, I did go and enroll to study PR and six months

 

into my study, I naively perhaps or bravely thought I can do better than even what my teachers sound like they’re doing because they didn’t really they weren’t very engaged or they didn’t seem that excited. And so I just went out and started building a clientele base. And before I even finished that diploma, I had my business.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (05:12)

Wow. There you go. So yeah, I gotta say some of that naughty teenager had some real spice and some kick behind it. So well done.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (05:15)

Yeah, I was determined.

 

Absolutely. I think there is definitely a place in the world for a rebellious streak and not waiting, starting before you’re ready, doing the things that people tell you you can’t do. And I will also add at that point, I did have a big motivation to get out into the world and share the message of wellness because I had gone through my own personal transformation of

 

going from being a party girl and a rebel with no cause and doing lots of destructive things to being an aspiring health and wellness guru after I spent two months at a health retreat. So I did also have this real passion and fire to get that message out there. And I think when you have that passion, fire,

 

and you’re willing to just do whatever it takes. There’s real magic in that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (06:40)

Mm-hmm. what you’re talking about and what you’re specializing in now, but you established a reputation as a PR professional for building other brands.

 

before realising that you yourself were becoming invisible, something that has been put to me of late, I’m very interested in this one. I love talking about reinvention. Tell me about yours, because how did you realise that that was not working and you were disappearing as others were coming forward?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (07:19)

I didn’t realize how invisible I was or had become until I went on extended maternity leave. So I was out in the world, as you said, building other people’s brands for well over a decade and doing so many amazing things all over the world for these amazing people. Then I went on extended maternity leave and I went from having this global PR fast paced career.

 

to being at home with two babies under two, two beautiful boys under two. And I was so happy and felt incredibly privileged that I was able to do that. And it wasn’t until the end of that where my boys started to go back to, or started daycare, excuse me, and I started contemplating, okay, so what is my next step going to be?

 

It was at that junction where I thought, my God, really, through all of those years, I didn’t necessarily really nurture my, my network. I definitely hadn’t put myself out there in any constructive way. I even reflected on moments where I had been approached by the media, being this young woman in business, representing these amazing people.

 

Asked to be interviewed myself and I remember distinctly calling one of my clients and saying, I’ve been approached by this magazine, which by the way, media doesn’t generally reach out to you. You have to be the one reaching, which I think is an important point to make. And I called my client and said, do you, do you think I should do it? Do you mind if I do it? Like I was asking permission and almost validation from my clients. So.

 

That was the moment for me, Di, that I was like, my God, what am I, what was I waiting for? What held me back? Why didn’t I do that when I was clearly doing it for everyone else? What was it that I felt it wasn’t relevant to me? And in that moment, I just, suppose I realized, if I was thinking like that,

 

then I imagine a lot of people out in the world are feeling exactly the same way.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (09:48)

So there’s a difference between visibility and currency. market, the market was saying you had currency because they, they were coming to you wanting to be interviewed, but you, you were challenging the personal visibility piece of stepping forward yourself instead of putting one of your brands out front and you do the behind the, behind the scenes work. Am I right in qualifying? Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (10:17)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I always put it in the terms of I had a lot of positional influence. So just by proximity of working with the clients that I was working with, I had positional influence. And if I’m really honest, that did go to my head and it was a false economy because I thought, well, I’m influential because

 

I was getting all of the benefits of representing influential clients and how that shows up today for a lot of my clients that I’m working with who are not necessarily high profile. They’re not in that world of talent and entertainment. They’re executives. Yeah. But how that shows up for them, they’re working for some of the biggest brands in the world. And so they also have a lot of positional influence when they walk into boardrooms.

 

They’re bolstered up by the fact that they’re representing these huge brands. They are also operating in a false economy because it only takes for you to step out of that, which I did in maternity leave to go, ⁓ that was all based on my position. It wasn’t personal influence.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (11:31)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And it’s interesting because I often have the dialogue in individuals working in the consulting world who build their own portfolio, but under the auspices of a big brand. The biggest issue for those big brands is when those individuals become a brand within themselves, their organization. And then, you know, the

 

big banner over the door has to ask who’s walking through the door, the brand that they work for or brand personal brand. And that’s brilliant for the individual, but not necessarily brilliant for the organization who employs you. So it can happen.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (12:17)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, I think that’s a really fair statement. And I have definitely heard of cases where there is that sense of confusion where there’s an individual who’s really getting out there and doing things. And whilst they are working with a big brand, they’re becoming a brand themselves. And I understand that perhaps it’s something you need to be mindful of. But in my experience, it’s

 

Usually the opposite way is that the the individual is not doing anything and there’s it’s an anomaly for it to be the other way where the individuals doing so much that it becomes a problem. So there is obviously a need for mindfulness and understanding what’s the operating model that you’re working within you know I do know there are brands that they absolutely frown upon any form of.

 

self-promotion and personal brand. And I always say to clients and individuals, if you are going into that scenario, then you’re going into that scenario with open eyes. the ideal situation and mindset that I try to promote in the clients that I work with is I want them to start thinking of themselves as being in brand partnership.

 

with the brands they work for. So rather than it being a case of the brand, yeah, and the brands up here and I’m just this little cog in the machine. When you take that step of no, I’m in brand partnership with the brand doesn’t make you automatically the spokesperson for the brand, but it’s an energetic shift. And you start to realize that

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (13:53)

out.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (14:13)

And also start to be mindful of, how can I use this positional influence to my own benefit as well? Because you’re giving so much of your time and energy to the role, to the company. I think that’s only a fair part of the equation is what can you also leverage in, in that, in building the asset that is your personal brand? Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (14:20)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, yeah, I love that framing of it. So you also write, and I think this is a direct quote, that when you have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives. So if that be the case, why does so many women and even the most accomplished amongst us struggle with being seen?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:09)

Well, it’s a fear factor. It’s a ⁓ worry of how they’ll be judged.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (15:21)

It’s… It keeps coming up.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:22)

Yeah.

 

It’s it’s you know there’s that idea of if I put my head what’s the saying if I put my head over the. Yes, you know I’m going to be shot down.

 

Yeah, there, if we’re speaking specifically about women, there is this, they tend to be the ones who are more collaborative. And even I’ve seen, even just recently, what comes to mind is I was, I had the privilege of sitting in, in a boardroom session where there were a group of emerging leaders.

 

presenting to a group of senior leaders and their opportunity was presented to them to have a moment where they really, you know, were able to highlight their achievements and put the spotlight on what they’ve been doing. And it was a, there was a combination of male executive emerging leaders and also female. And I was sitting there quietly on the sidelines watching as this unfolded and the men got up.

 

and talked about their achievements and there was a lot of mention of I did this, my vision was this, et cetera. And then the women got up and it was, we did this, we did that. And there was no claiming their fame, no I. And I have to say when they left the room and then the senior leaders were reflecting and making their comments.

 

It does get noticed when you’re not confidently claiming your fame and owning your achievements. So whilst there might be a hesitation because, or, you know, I don’t want to be seen as the one who’s the tall poppy and I don’t want to be seen as big noting myself. There’s also negative connotations. If you are being so humble, you are coming across as being.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:34)

Mmm.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (17:38)

you know, more meek and that’s not impressive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:41)

Yeah, it’s so true, Carlii. I told a story only recently of an organisation several decades ago where I had to go through a assessment centre to get in and there was about 30 of us in this assessment centre and at the end of the day, we’re all sitting around this massively extended boardroom table and we were given a topic and a couple of seconds to prepare and speak.

 

Hmm. 30 of us presenting and 29 of those individuals gave their presentation whilst seated in the position that they were seated at the table. I was the only one who stood up two decades or three decades ago, went and stood at the head of the table and presented with a level of authority from the head of the table.

 

and I was the only one out of 30 who got selected to join the organisation.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (18:46)

Amazing. You know that gave me goosebumps then. ⁓ really? Yeah it actually did because you know it represents something it’s so powerful and it’s so inspiring and for all the reasons why women don’t necessarily do it on the flip side of that when you do it like I’m sure

 

the 29 others, whilst there might’ve been a few that were like, God, who does she think she is? Cause there will always be a few of those. Without question, they exist everywhere. But then there would’ve been others in there that would’ve gone, wow, like I wanna be like her. I wish I did that. And you gave them permission to do that in the next opportunity. But it’s, that’s, I love that. I love that story.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (19:16)

Without qu-

 

that all I wish.

 

We will come back to that point, Carlii, because there is a risk, as to the phrase you were referencing before, putting your head up above the parapet. But we’ll come back to that, because I think that’s an important point. But let’s talk about the three universal thoughts individuals struggle with on the line to putting themselves out there. You’ve clearly…

 

defined what those three universal thoughts. Can you talk us through that? And if they hold us back either from visibility or opportunity or both.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (20:17)

Yes. So I wrote an article about these three thoughts and this article on LinkedIn went crazy viral, like crazy, crazy viral. And I always say, I believe that article went viral to the extent that it did because everyone could see themselves in these three thoughts. And the reason I wrote the article and I wanted to put these three thoughts in black and white was I

 

started coaching individuals one-on-one. I realized they were all having these same three thoughts. But even more importantly for myself and my own sense of development, I had thought that these three thoughts were personal to me, that I was the only one thinking them. And when I realized everyone was thinking them, I thought, okay, I’ve got to get these out in the world because if we know that they’re just

 

thoughts that everyone has we don’t take them so personally and we can override. The impact that these thoughts have okay so here they are. The first one is who am I to speak and this comes from a place of us being completely unable to see ourselves truly objectively and the things that we know the things that we’ve done.

 

The person that we are, we don’t necessarily value to the same extent as what we do when we look at others or we hear about what others are doing. So this, am I to speak? Everyone feels the same. And this thought is in the minds of some of the people that you would never assume. Like that have got all the.

 

accolades and all of the not accolades, excuse me, credibility is the better word, but they still think that they shouldn’t speak. The next one is I’m not saying anything new. So why would anyone care? And this is especially relevant when people start putting themselves out there and sharing their thought leadership and their stories. There’s this sense of, well, if I’m not saying anything new,

 

And groundbreaking and never heard before then it’s irrelevant no one will care and. You know if and i’m sure a lot of your listeners are avid readers if you happen to. Especially in the non-fiction realm if you happen to follow a particular topic so in my case i love researching about influence and body language and these sorts of subjects.

 

And the honest truth is, Di, everyone’s saying the same thing, but they’re just saying it slightly differently through their own tone of voice, through their stories in, you know, in their realm of experience. But they’re all saying the same thing. So if ever you’re questioning, I’m not saying anything new, so why would anyone care? I want you to think of your favourite non-fiction book.

 

And imagine, imagine if that author had have held themselves back by thinking that. Like it would, the world would miss out on that. And then the last thought is everyone will think I have a big ego. So this worry of, you know, if I put myself out there, people are going to be thinking, or who does she think she is or who does he think he is?

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (23:50)

You

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (24:01)

And yes, like we just said, those people absolutely exist in the world. But my experience tells me that those people are just so afraid of putting themselves out there that when they see someone else do it, it makes them intimidated.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (24:19)

Those points are absolutely brilliant. So I reflect back to the 30-something year old who stood up at the head of a boardroom table and landed themselves a job by being bolshe. And I don’t know whether I did that in a considered sense or it was just an innate thing that that’s what I did. And I think it’s more the latter than the former. Only very recently,

 

coming to the realization through somebody poking the bear that I needed to be more visible as a brand to promote the Power Of Women Podcast. In so doing and putting myself out there, all three of those things enter my mind at some point in time every week.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:10)

Yep.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:11)

with all the confidence in the world, I still reflect on those points.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:17)

Yep, they are universal. And my favorite author, Steven Pressfield, who wrote an exceptional book called The War of Art. He talks about how in the universe there is a force that he calls the resistance and the resistance exists in the universe to stop us from doing the things that we’re meant to do, from being the person that we truly in our heart and soul want to be.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:28)

Yes.

 

Yep.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:47)

And so I see these three thoughts as a form of resistance now. And when you

 

almost create a bit of distance and you can hear the thought pop up and know that it’s just resistance. It’s everyone feels like this. Every single person that you see out in the world at whatever level they’re at, they are having the same thoughts.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:17)

Maybe it’s a saline-relating dose so that we don’t get too gushy. Maybe.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:23)

Maybe. Yeah, absolutely, maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:28)

Whether

 

it’s fully on or just slightly on.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:31)

Yeah, maybe it will stop us from all becoming crazy egomaniacs who think that we’re too god-like and do everything.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:42)

A few

 

people I could name globally who might not have these thoughts that we could run. It is, so maybe it is. So you encourage readers to embrace the life-changing magic of, of I, and it doesn’t escape my notice, Carlii, that you have two I’s in your spelling of Carlii. So my first question is, have, did you always, was that the name you were given?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:47)

Maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:12)

and the second it wasn’t you that

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:14)

No,

 

was not the name I was given. consulted with a… I mean, this was in my 20s. I consulted with a very well-known… I asked. Yes. I know. It’s funny, the other day I was walking with one of my closest friends, and she’s a newer friend in my life.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:31)

Do this.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:44)

She never knew that I changed my name. She was like, I never knew this. How could you know? So it’s a good pick up die. But I did, I consulted with a famous numerologist who unfortunately has passed away and he was known as a numerologist to specialize in names because in terms of the world of numerology, everything can be… ⁓

 

It can turn into a number. all of the letters. Yes. So I don’t know if you know much about numerology. When you look at your name in total. ⁓ okay. Perfect. So I had my name done and I changed. I was born with Carlii with a Y. So I did add the two, I’s and I changed my middle name and my surname.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:16)

Yeah.

 

and your surname. ⁓ There’s the rebellious kid coming back. How did that go down? How did mom and dad services, this is pre-marriage or post-marriage?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:44)

I’m

 

This is pre-marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:55)

How

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:57)

Well, Lion, so my mother’s maiden name is Lions with an S. He dropped the S because apparently that was not good for the numbers. So there was still a nod to mom and dad. My dad was upset in the beginning that I had changed, but he soon came around.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:02)

Yes. Yeah. Cause I was also good. Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:25)

Old school and he’s has an Italian background. And then what was funny is I married an Italian and even though in Italy women don’t change their names. My husband was a little bit more old school and he did want me to take his name, but I didn’t. So I know. So every time we’d go to a wedding, he’d be like, see, she took their name or blah, blah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:44)

Bye!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:52)

So it took him a while to get his head around it. you know, I am a personal, obviously a personal brand. I live and breathe personal branding and my name is my name. Like it’s my name, it’s my identity. So I couldn’t imagine changing it even for marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (30:09)

Yeah, they go. And as I say, I’m so glad I asked you that because every time I put your name down, think must remember to ask Karla. Because the point of distinction is a powerful one. And I got married at ⁓ 40 years of age also to a European whose surname was far more renowned in the public domain than mine. But I didn’t.

 

Yeah. ⁓ Sorry.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (31:01)

Okay, perfect.

 

You can lean on it then. can use it. That’s even better. You’ve got two options now.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (31:09)

Yeah,

 

so there you go. So I’m talking with former international publicist, turned speaker and executive coach Carlii Lyon, Carlii with a double I. And coming up, we’re going to talk about putting yourself out there and trusting your intuition. If you’re loving the Power Of Women Podcast, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel.

 

and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Carlii, you talk about future self-psychology as a powerful concept based around imagining who we want to become. Could you tell us a little bit about what future self-psychology is and how we use or can use this framework to shape our personal brand?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (32:03)

I didn’t even know that future self-psychology was actually an area of psychology and there are a few key pioneers in this space and when I first came across the research and the thinking, quite frankly, I was just blown away and it made so much intuitive sense which

 

You know, which is why you barely even really need to explain it. But in a snapshot, what future self psychology is, is using the power of perspective and even in some ways, your imagination of thinking about your future self and using that to your advantage. So I’ll give you an example. There is a gentleman by the name of

 

Hal Hirschfield, who is a professor at UCLA and he did a TED talk on this and a lot of his work centers around this idea of future self-psychology. And in his case, he’s talking about how it impacts decision-making and behavior. And what he did in one of his research studies was he got a group of students together. They were all given a digital avatar and invited to go into a virtual reality.

 

And one half of the students was given a digital avatar that looks like who they were today. And the other half of the students were given a digital avatar that was digitally enhanced to look like who they would be in 40 years time. so you see in his Ted talk, he actually shows clips of these students going into this digital realm and looking at themselves in the mirror.

 

And at the end of their journey, they had to come back, sit down and answer some questions. In this case, it was around financial decision-making. And what they found was that the individuals who went in and saw themselves effectively in 40 years time, they committed to saving, I believe it was 20 or 30 % more.

 

Then the individuals who went in and just saw themselves as who they were today and in the moment. So it’s this idea of when you truly embody the concept that your future self will be an entirely different person and that the consequences of everything you do and you don’t do in the now are going to ⁓ impact that.

 

other person, then your decision making is potentially going to be different. I certainly think better because you do realize that, okay, I’m creating that future for that person who I’m not at the moment, but that person’s going to live the results of every decision that I make. And when it comes to personal branding and making the decision of

 

putting yourself out there, building your profile. In the now, you know, it can be a hard ask because people are busy. They’re already thinking about just doing what they have to do. And then when you put it to them that, okay, on top of that, you have to go and network. You have to share your thought leadership.

 

You you

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (36:06)

I know!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (36:14)

You know i want you to imagine you’ve been offered this amazing opportunity it’s going to give you massive visibility it’s something you’ve never done before and you’re questioning whether you should do it and in the now you’re thinking am i ready should i do this can i do this. I want you to imagine what would your future self say to you at that point when you’re making the decision and every single time it gives the audience.

 

Goosebumps because every single time it will be something so simple, but yet so profound. It’s just like, go for it. Just do it. You’ve got this. And to me, it just shows that we have this mentor in us that we can use and tap into anytime.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (37:04)

Yeah, thank you. That’s brilliant. I love that. And do you know, I’m sitting here listening to you talking about this and envisaging future self. And sometimes I have to wonder whether I’ve done a lap of the planet before because I find myself doing things innately and then I learn about what it is that I’m doing after I’ve already done it.

 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:01)

Mmm, I love that. Yeah. Well, that’s a good thing. It’s like confirmation.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:07)

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s something that leaves me feeling very positive. thank you for clarifying future self psychology. And this probably leads very much into that as a next step and intuition and I call it my inner intelligence and and and something I tap into very regularly. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:16)

rhyme.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:35)

And I think some people, as we might suggest from the prelude to this question, ⁓ are more naturally attuned to the subtle cues. how does somebody who’s not learn to listen to their intuition and then channel it into what really matters?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:55)

Hmm.

 

Intuition has been, so my goal for this year and, you know, through the process of launching my book and doing all of these effectively new things, my biggest goal was listen to my intuition, really trust my intuition and take action on my intuition. And in doing that and consciously doing that this year,

 

I can say with a sense of authority that it really comes down to practice. And in terms of how, for me, it’s sitting still, being quiet, creating those moments of calm. So even I’ve started, instead of getting in the car and automatically turning on music,

 

I don’t turn on anything. And I, for me, that’s creating a moment, almost like setting a stage for my intuition to come in. That’s been my experience that the quieter you are, the easier it is to hear that little voice. And for different people, they’re going to experience their intuition differently.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:09)

I like that.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:27)

And I would say for the people who perhaps they’re new to the idea, and I am thinking that a lot of the people that are listening are probably not so new to it because I, and this may be a grand overstatement and stereotype, but I feel like women are at being intuitive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:48)

really good

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:52)

And we hear our intuition, we’re in touch with our intuition, but whether we act on our intuition, that’s another thing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:00)

sufficiently yeah yeah

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:02)

Yes.

 

And perhaps it’s just in that case, the practice is not necessarily learning to hear it or learning to listen. It’s learning to just take action. So I’ve got to the point now this year because it was my goal. It was a front and center goal for me. If my intuition tells me to send an email to someone, follow up someone, go to a particular event, I’m just going.

 

Like I’m not even questioning and I have to say I’ve had some really remarkable things come through as a result of doing that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:41)

Was it unnerving to start with? Did you have to step out of comfort zone or was it simply taking action?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:52)

I wouldn’t say it was unnerving because it’s always been something that I’ve appreciated. I would say it was more come really actually comes back to what you just said in terms of confirmation. Like you’re doing certain things or not doing certain things. And by making it front and center, I confirmed to myself not only how important it is.

 

to listen and take action, even when it doesn’t make sense. But I also confirmed to myself how sometimes I really wasn’t listening and I was not trusting it.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (42:35)

Yeah, great. So are you going to say something else then, Carlii?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (42:41)

No, I was just going to say how this and why I put this in the book was when it comes to personal branding. I think having that close connection with your intuition is so important because what I find is a lot of the time when someone first starts to put themselves out there and perhaps this this even mirrors how we develop as beings as humans.

 

In the beginning, we’re really looking around us to see what is everyone else doing and what can I mimic and how can I imitate and, and, and maybe that’s natural because then we go through our teenage years and we go, okay, I take this, I take this and I’ll change this. But when it comes to personal branding and putting ourselves out there in the beginning, it’s really tempting to just go, ⁓ but that’s how they’re doing it. So I’m going to do it like that. Or, you know, I want to do this, but maybe that’s wrong.

 

because no one else is doing it. And that’s where I think intuition plays such a dramatic role in just trusting that experiment with that, you know, maybe put something out there.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (43:55)

situation tells me where that white space is is where you should go. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:00)

Exactly. That might be your edge. by doing when, you know, when everyone’s zigging and your intuition is saying you should zag, it’s probably great advice.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (44:12)

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, Carlii, finally for the woman today thinking about stepping forward and they’ve got some hesitation around that. What does putting yourself out there with purpose really look like in everyday life? Is there an example that you could play out for us?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:35)

Yes, absolutely. Whenever you start to contemplate what you want your personal brand to be and how you want to shape your personal brand, a lot of clues in how to do that can actually be borrowed by some of the biggest brands in the world. And you can really lean on some traditional frameworks of brand marketing in

 

My case or what I speak about often is the four P’s. So the four P’s, are definitely for anyone in marketing, they’ll be familiar with the four P’s or this version of them is promise, packaging, position and promotion. So even if you sat down with a blank piece of paper and you put four circles on the page and you have promise, packaging, position, promotion.

 

promise is, what do you stand for? What do you want to be known for? How do you want to be remembered? And the really simple way of getting to that is, what are perhaps three words, ideas or phrases that you want people to automatically associate with you? That’s your promise. That’s the thing that you want people to automatically think of when they think of you. Once you’ve got that promise,

 

You can then shape and color the other parts of the puzzle. So you’ve got your packaging. Your packaging is not only how do you package yourself in person, so your styling, you know, your styling decisions, but also how you’re packaging yourself online. That’s your social media. So it’s really looking at every touch point, how am I packaging myself and what am I signaling?

 

in doing so, how am I dressing? What colors am I using? What words, phrases? So that’s your packaging. Your positioning, when you think of positioning in the world of brand marketing, we know that brands make sure that their products are on the right shelf in the right place because it will have a huge impact on how a customer receives and relates to that product. The same thing is for an individual.

 

Your positioning is not only potentially where you work or what industry you play in. Your positioning is what events are you going to? ⁓ If you are a thought leader, well, what platforms are you using? This is all shaping how people see you and what they associate with you. And then the last piece of the puzzle, which I think is the most important, is promotion.

 

Most people fall into the trap of thinking, if my work’s good enough, people will see it and that will be the end of the story. But we know in brand marketing, the biggest brands in the world are the biggest promoters in the world. They’re the biggest advertisers. Why? Because they know they have to stay top of mind. They have to stay relevant. They know that people’s attention spans are short. They know that they have to constantly

 

be reminding them of the brand. The same thing applies to our personal brands and not making the assumption that everyone’s thinking about you. Everyone sees you. Everyone knows what you’re doing because they don’t and psychology supports that statement. So I would start with that blank piece of paper. What are your four P’s and just look at, look at that as a starting point.

 

because that might shift your

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:26)

Masterclass. Yep. Thank you. And I, I personally have learned a lot, crossed a few things off and validated a few things that I’m doing just through the course of reflecting on exactly, exactly what you’ve said. they’re absolutely powerful points, Carlii. So, so thank you so much. Carlii, what a brilliant

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (48:44)

Amazing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:52)

episode today and it will be one of our closing episodes of the year. So I think what I would ask anybody listening to this is to play this over a couple of times. Take down the point. This is a bit of a masterclass over your Christmas break if you’re going to give yourself one to stop and reflect about how you are managing

 

yourself as a brand, whether it be that you want to step forward into your own business, you want to elevate yourself within the organisation with which you are, or you might be pursuing some purpose-led perspective that you’re embracing as a next stage in your career or your life. So Carlii, thank you so very much for that. And your book Courage To Be is out on the shelves now.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (49:52)

It is, thank you. Very exciting. And I just want to say, Di, thank you so much for having me and thank you for putting yourself out there in what you’re doing. And as you mentioned, how much work goes into even this podcast and each podcast episode. I know that you’re doing it for a very big purpose and that every woman who listens to it.

 

is benefiting from that. So thank you for allowing me to play a small part.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (50:24)

Thank you, Carlii. That endorsement means a lot and it makes me feel a little bit emotional. So thank you. Thank you so much. Please be sure to jump on to the show notes and there you’ll find where to find Carlii if you’d like to pursue a direct conversation. And I know you show up as I do quite regularly on LinkedIn where we’re LinkedIn fiends. That’s a really good spot.

 

to find either of us. Carlii, just for ⁓ edification, your website is…

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:04)

CarliiLyon.com

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (51:06)

Carlii, thank you again. It’s been an absolute privilege to go through all this. Thank you. So enlightening personally. So I know how enlightening it will be for our listeners. Until next time.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:12)

Thank you.

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

Find Carlii Lyon at:

Website www.carliilyon.com

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/carliilyon/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/carlii_lyon/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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How To Create A Vision That Transforms Your Life

How To Create A Vision That Transforms Your Life

by | Dec 1, 2025 | Career Change Over 50, Female Leaders, Leadership, Transformational Change

As former CEO of Bevilles Jewellers, Michelle Stanton led her family’s 80-year-old business through crisis and transformation, turning it into a remarkable story of reinvention and eventual sale to a global multinational.

Now, as the founder of Complete Success, she teaches others how to do the same, by aligning mindset, vision, and values to create lasting transformation.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Michelle and Di Gillett unpack what it means to take a “quantum leap”. To move beyond the logical and step into the life you would love to live.

 

➡️You’ll hear:

  • Why fear is the border guard between the familiar and the new
  • How to design a vision that feels both daring and doable
  • The difference between goals and visions and how both shape momentum
  • A five-step test to ensure your vision aligns with your core values
  • Why patience with results and relentlessness with action is the secret to lasting change.

 

Michelle said:

“Be courageous. Don’t wait. We never know how long we have here or the difference that it could make in people’s lives… Now is the moment.”

“A vision should be expansive and it should not be based on what’s real or realistic or logical. It should be based on a whole new version of yourself in a way that you would absolutely love.”

“Fear is the border guard between the known, the familiar, and the new way of being or the new life that we would love to create.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (00:02)

So we want to be a little unrealistic, we’ll call it. However, there’s a caveat to that. If that feeling of ⁓ feels like there’s no possibility whatsoever, then my recommendation is just to reduce it a little bit, not give up on it, and then learn over time to expand in that believing power.

 

I believe that life is not linear, that a quantum leap is absolutely available for each and every one of us. And when we decide to say yes to it and we take the action steps for it and really think the right way, anything is possible for each and every one of us. I also believe and know that two people can have the same experiences in life, the same conditions or similar, and have

 

two very different outcomes from it. And that is by what we decide to release all of those old stories and limitations about ourselves and our willingness to adopt a new identity, a new belief system. And the two people, similar circumstances can have a wildly different trajectory. And what I know for sure is that for women, particularly in our beautiful ages,

 

have a ready and ripe to step into their fullest potential because they’ve got the wisdom, the experiences, the challenges that they’ve had and the combination of all of those has really primed them ready for all of us to take a quantum leap and have the impact that we would love to have and doing it in a way which feels life-giving and having the freedom of time, money and mind at the same time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:53)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. Because this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs and the moments that don’t often make the headlines.

 

absolutely should. So join the conversation and please subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and help propel the power of women community. Imagine if one simple alignment between your mindset and your vision and your values could create the kind of transformation most people spend decades chasing. Would you take that leap?

 

Michelle Stanton knows what it takes to reinvent at any age. As the former CEO of her family led business, Bevels Jewelers, she led the business through a crisis to a very successful global sale. And now as founder of Complete Success, Michelle teaches leaders and individuals how to align mindset, vision and values to create lasting change.

 

Many of us reach midlife realizing that life or the career that we’ve built isn’t the one that we imagined. With Michelle’s help today, we’re going to unpack an awareness around that and how to turn it into action. A true quantum leap of reinvention. Michelle Stanton, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (03:40)

Thank you, Diane. Thank you for having me back.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:44)

Michelle, could we start with reflecting on your own journey because you led bevels through crisis and you needed to in reality evolve overnight. How did that experience shape your understanding of transformation in midlife?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (04:01)

I think it’s shaped everything about me now. that experience was incredibly difficult. You know, I leading a highly successful business that was 80 years old. And during that time where we were losing, you know, a lot of money, people’s jobs were at risk. It did require for me to find the courage and the determination to literally shift how I saw myself and to then

 

lead the business in a way that would allow it to grow. So how has it affected me today? mean, my late fifties is in a few ways. One is that I really came to discover that there is a power inside of us, each and every one of us, no matter how challenging the circumstances are, how long they’ve been like that, the stories that we’ve been telling ourselves up until that moment.

 

we can find within us a power that is far greater. And if we tap into that, we can transform and rewrite a whole new story going forward.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:10)

brilliant. And I look forward to doing that in our discussion today for the listeners, because I think women often feel torn between the comfort of the familiar versus the discomfort of the unknown. And I think like all of us, change can be disarming. What’s the mental shift that helps somebody make that move from I should to I’m actually ready to take the action?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (05:40)

Yes, well, I actually, you I think it’s a bit of a misnomer, the word comfort zone. Although it’s familiar, it’s actually usually pretty uncomfortable. So firstly, we’re just recognising that any change is uncomfortable because it’s not familiar. And fear is the border guard between the known, the familiar and

 

the new way of being or the new life that we would love to create. So it’s always, it’s not an if, it’s always a part of the journey. And so we can build a different relationship with fear and thinking about it, ⁓ it’s good news. It means that I’m wanting to cross the border of the known life into the unknown. But what actually helps someone to make that decision to go from what I like to teach is moving from interested

 

I would like to have that, but you know, I’m going to wait, use all of our excuses to why we’re going to prolong that to I’m committed and I’m making that decision now. And I think there’s two essential ingredients. One is a burning desire. You must feel like A, that the place that you’re at, the stuckness is uncomfortable enough to propel you to want to move.

 

But you also need to know where you would love to move to and what you would love to create. Because without the pulling power of what you would love to create, there is not enough like engine pull to move you from the familiar because it’s a very heavy place to be in. It’s very sticky. And so we do need the help of a really powerful vision. And the second thing is a really committed decision like

 

I’m doing this. this, I’m no longer waiting. And I want to be the person who’s living this life and creating all that’s inside of me to create.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:46)

And sometimes that can be difficult because if you’re stuck in a point and you don’t know how to get out of it, what do you do if you haven’t got that bigger picture desire of where do you want to be and you’re just stuck with I can’t move?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (08:05)

Well, I mean, of course, I would say engage with someone who’s an expert at helping draw that out of you, because it is hard to do it on your own. But in addition to that, I would suggest this. We are all capable of dreaming. It’s actually our innate nature to use our imagination and to its life force, always wanting for us to grow and be a better version of ourselves. And so if we can start to trust that,

 

and do a process where we allow ourselves to imagine ⁓ it’s three years from now. And the reason why I love three years is because it’s not too close where our limiting beliefs are going to say, well, that’s not possible. But it’s not too far out where we think, well, I who knows what I would love in 10 years. And so three years seems to be the sweet spot where we can allow. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:00)

favorite number.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (09:02)

Excellent. I’m born on the third. mine too. One of mine. And so we allow ourselves to imagine a life in four areas that I really train people and help people with. Firstly, our health and well-being and our mindset, our relationships, our vocation, which is really about our expression in the world, whether we get paid for it or not, and then our time and money freedom. And we tune into the

 

master tool that or one of them that I wrap this codified way of bringing about results with this beautiful question and it’s what would I love? Not what I think I can have, not what I should have, not what other people expect me to have. It’s really what.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:51)

I- picture dreaming.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (09:53)

Yes, big picture dreaming. What would I love? And we go to work with starting with what we know for sure and then adding to it. What else would you love? And giving ourselves the most precious gift of allowing ourselves to dream.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:09)

That sounds like a good place to operate from. And as I understand it, and we’ve talked about it before, Michelle, when we’ve been together on the podcast, you’ve worked with mentors like Bob Proctor and Mary Morrissey. How much did their teachings shape the programs and the ideas and what you’re bringing to life now? And in fact, shape

 

how you got past your own journey.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (10:41)

Well, yes, and I’ve invested, you know, over 10,000 hours of studying this work under amazing transformational leaders and thought leaders. ⁓ And to go to your first, you your second part of the question, there is no way I know this, no matter how hard I was trying, that without the awareness that they brought to me through their teachings, would have I ever have created

 

such an amazing result with Bevels, so 100 % for sure. It shaped everything that I am and how I believe and what I teach, but it’s the combination of their teachings and a few others that I’ve gone very, very deep with. And then I think the biggest gift has been being able to apply it. ⁓ You know, my time at Bevels was such a great teacher.

 

of actually not just about knowing about it, but actually the system to apply it. And it’s that combination of all of those factors that truly influences everything that I teach my clients, but also apply to my life today. Every single day, I’m still working these principles, codifying how does it actually help people move from where they are because transformation is really just transforming our current

 

way of thinking and being and our results into something way more expansive and beautiful. And there is a system to doing it. It’s not just by chance or random. Unfortunately, we’re not taught it at school or in workplaces or generally. And it’s really my passion to help people ⁓ understand it, but most importantly, apply it to their lives. So they too, and I’m seeing it at such incredible rates of

 

people transforming their lives in ways that they love, of course, and what I call accelerating, accentuating what’s already good in their lives. So they’re feeling more joy for what is fantastic, because most of us are very blessed with lots of good, and then transforming the parts that we would love to change into a life that we would love to have. And yes, it’s rapid, what’s happening for people. It’s amazing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:02)

And I’ve had some interesting conversations of late with executives who’ve made that transition from ⁓ on the tools within a business that they’re either working for or is actually their own to then the world of consulting and teaching others like you are doing. Where’s the satisfaction level on the Richter scale of that, of actually doing that for a business that is ⁓

 

part of your DNA versus now doing that and helping others where you can teach but you can’t necessarily walk them over that final line.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (13:43)

It’s a great question and in fact it bevels our purpose for being, which was from me, was to inspire, build confidence and transform people’s lives through beautiful jewellery. So really actually my belief of why I love my family business and that heritage was for the very transformation that we could help take people on.

 

Really, this for me is just an extension of that, ⁓ and a multiplier of that, of course, because rather than doing it in, I believe beautiful jewelry can help people amazingly, but really these principles and a way of being and living and taking that action not only just transforms their lives on a permanent basis, ⁓ but it has a ripple effect to their family, to the people that they lead.

 

This is, you know, this was my calling. Actually, I knew this a couple of years after the restructure, you know, that Bevels came through about eight years before the sale. I actually even bought, you know, the domain name Complete Success because I knew, knew that I was going

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:57)

There you go. With

 

power of women, had a forward vision of where you’d end up. I love that. Yeah. So with that in mind, Michelle, for anyone who is listening and feeling a little bit stuck, they’ve either got a career plateau or the kids have left home or there’s been some significant life change, which is inevitable that things change.

 

What’s the starting point to create a vision that feels both exciting, yet realistic to achieve?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (15:33)

Yeah, well, I think firstly that if any of those things are happening, which, as you say, is inevitable, it’s actually the exact conditions that you need to start this work. Often we can do it when things are good, but mostly it is those moments that it’s actually the right perfect timing to happen. The second that I would say is a goal.

 

Goals are very important and I’m a very passionate goal setting person and really teach my clients how to set them and achieve them. Goals should be realistic. Goals should be stretchy, but they should be achievable so that we can move the energy and keep having completions. However, a vision is a whole different thing. A vision should be expansive and it should not be based on what’s

 

real or realistic or logical. It should be based on a whole new version of yourself in a way that you would absolutely love, keeping the things that are already working but expanding on it. And so as an example, in 2019, know, the wrestle, I’ll call it, or the calling that one day I wanted to be doing this work full time was getting so strong that I knew that

 

needed to answer it. I wanted to answer it and I thought well if I can design a life I love I might as well make the exit of Bevels being one that I truly love and so I designed a vision for that sale and at the time in 2019 the business was only actually worth 10 % of what I wrote down as that vision. So it was completely unrealistic, it was completely, there was no evidence supporting it or facts.

 

And yet I believed in that vision so much. Over the next four years, every day I would be spending time, you know, being in the vision, but of course, thinking from the vision and taking, you know, a lot of action. And four years later, literally down to the T, that vision came to fruition in in 2023. And for the exact number, 10 times the unrealistic number.

 

Now did I tell anyone about that vision? Uh-uh, because I wasn’t going to have their doubt.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:00)

Yeah, and what’s interesting about that is if you had set that as a goal, would that have been demotivating versus setting it as a vision being aspirational?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (18:20)

Yes, well, I think that a vision, the magnetic energy, energy that is in a vision that is beyond the familiar or beyond the known is essential because it has this life force that is beyond your, you know, limiting stories and limiting ways of being. And so we are igniting this magnetic energy with it. We actually, if a vision’s not big enough, it actually doesn’t have enough pull often to get us unstuck.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:49)

Hmm. Yeah.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (18:50)

The goals along the way, and I had many, you know, were then more what I call concrete. And, you know, what were my 30 day or 90 day steps to take that? You know, when was I going to engage?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:04)

stuff.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (19:08)

So we want to be a little unrealistic, we’ll call it. However, there’s a caveat to that. If that feeling of feels like there’s no possibility whatsoever, not even a corner of your mind open to it. You only need a corner. But if you can’t even have that, then my recommendation is just to reduce it a little bit, not give up on it.

 

or say, well, that’s impossible, I’m not going to actually go for it. But just bring it back a little bit so that your mind and your believing power can say, there is a possibility. And then learn over time to expand in that believing power. And there are ways of which to do that, of course.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:54)

Yeah. So what is one question you actually ask your clients to see whether their vision is actually aligned with their deeper values? Is there a ⁓ magic question to crack that open?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (20:11)

Yes, and in fact, as part of our process, when people are creating their vision, I have a five step ⁓ test to ensure that the vision is not, most people actually ask the wrong question. They think, ⁓ you know, am I good enough to bring this vision to life? I actually like to phrase it as a completely different thing. Is this vision big enough and good enough for you to trade your life for? And we have a five step test.

 

Yes, and a five-step test in it. And the first of two, which I’ll just cover, does, when I think about this vision, if it’s all worked out, bring aliveness to me? Like, you know, am I coming to life in my energy force just even by thinking about it?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:58)

I’m playing my own over as you’re going through this.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (21:02)

So that’s the first one. And the second one is a must question. Is it so imperative? Does this vision, as it all comes to life, align with my core values? And even if you don’t know your core values, which I believe is a very important exercise for everyone to do and live by, but even if you’re thinking about, well, you know, my health, my family, my ⁓ expression in the world, how would I rank them?

 

in importance. Now, I’m a big believer, I’m a mother of two children. I’ve been married and, you know, am married to love of my life for 30 years. So they are, you know, my highest priorities as well as my health. But I do believe that if I was, for example, dreaming up complete success, that meant that I was on the road for 10 months of the year and doing this work in the world, but missing out on my, you know, time with my family.

 

that definition of how to bring it to life wouldn’t be in harmony with my values. So it’s not necessarily that bringing this work to the world would be against my values, but if I designed it in such a way that would require me to be away all the time, then it wouldn’t be. So we can get to refine it and then match it back to what’s our priorities.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:24)

Yeah, fantastic. Well, I’m here with Michelle Stanton, former retail CEO and now life mastery consultant, and talking about how to design and manifest a life in harmony with purpose. Coming up, we’re going to explore how you can create that too. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never…

 

Miss an episode.

 

So Michelle, before we went to a break, were talking about goals versus visions and ensuring that the goals aren’t a demotivator and the visions are that beautiful blue sky aspirational draw. How can leaders clarify what they truly value rather than what might be being imposed upon them around what they should value?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (23:25)

Well, I could probably talk all day about leaders and values. It’s good and bad. Well, I’m going to say it’s really my passion point for businesses, you know, talking about leaders in business for the moment. ⁓ Because I truly believe this, that the thought that someone else can do your values for you, even your team or Google,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:33)

True.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (23:53)

I do not believe that for a moment. The values that lead a business govern the behaviors, the heart and soul of the business. And it must be inside, you know, aligned completely to the, call it the founder or the leader of the business. And if it’s not something that they are going to be willing to live from,

 

I live from in difficult times because I believe that they help govern the decisions that we’re making. And so when they’re in challenging times, you must lean on the visions to help guide you to take the step that’s most in alignment. And it builds the culture of the organization, the fabric, the decision making, the people that you attract. And if that’s not inside that leader, that they’re speaking to it, living from it, walking the talk of it,

 

Bringing it to life, then they’re just going to be mere words that sit on a piece of paper in a drawer and that company will never reach its potential.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:58)

So with that in mind and once you have defined those values, what is the process then to bring those forward to be part of the daily lives?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (25:11)

Yeah, well, I mean, read, you know, every day I read complex successors values, I read my own personal values and I did it every day at Bevels as well. So that they’re inside of me, they’re not something that’s outside. And in bringing it into an organization, it’s literally the same thing. You can never talk enough about them. So as an example,

 

at Bevels the way to bring it back and we had people across the country, not all in the office or anything like that. We had them, I mean our office had them everywhere on the walls.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:51)

I’m

 

to ask that because so often you see them plastered but never talked about it, simply decor, but this is much deeper than that.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (26:00)

much deeper. I would do a five minute, a three minute, you know, a five minute post, like a video post, podcast to my team every day. And I would be talking about, you know, a value, how we can bring it to life with our customers, how we can bring it to life within ourselves. We would celebrate each week across the organization, the team members would nominate people who have been living beyond.

 

you know, the values and doing something extraordinary and focusing on one value that they brought to life. And literally it was so much a part of our DNA. And of course, I brought that to complete success and the people that we’re coaching. But I’ll give you just some examples of how we did it. So one of our values was be proud. And that really actually came to existence at the restructure at the time of

 

where I’ll call the business was in shame and same with me for what had happened. And as we were bringing the new version of Bevels to life, I felt that that was a very essential value, that we were always going to be proud of who we are and what we did. And during those difficult times, you know, my business advisors and consultants were saying that I didn’t need to pay the suppliers back in full.

 

I could negotiate a lower rate to pay them back and that would be a good outcome for them. And so when I ran that down my value, you know, the values of Bevels of being proud and saw myself walking at the trade fairs, visiting those suppliers, what would be the answer to that, you know, very important question. It cost me millions of dollars, this particular answer. And I said, no, I said for me to be an integrity of my value of be proud, I want to walk.

 

my head up high, be super proud of what I’ve achieved. I’m paying every single dollar back even if it takes me years to do it and that’s exactly

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:02)

Lovely example. Thank you. So what’s the most common blind spot then that you see between external success and internal fulfillment in this stuff that we’ve indicated visually on screen today?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (28:19)

⁓ Well, I mean, external success, which we all want to have. You know, we want to have the things and be able to have the experiences that and create the out of success that we’re wonderful to have. So it’s not an either or, but external success without internal fulfillment is empty. And I truly believe that for people, they will find themselves bumped up to difficult

 

circumstances, whether it be a life of regret or the family’s fallen apart or their health’s deteriorating because they believe that they can only have external success at a sacrifice for all the other parts that are meaningful in life and I do not believe that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:08)

That’s

 

very, but I bet that’s a common thought that it comes with sacrifice.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (29:13)

Yes, absolutely. And it does come with sacrifice, what I call, maybe a different way of considering it. I call it, we must sacrifice the greater, the things that we would love to have and what’s important for us, for letting go of the things that are no longer serving us. can’t bring in the odd. Yes, we can’t bring in all, you know, yucky thinking and expect to have amazing results. It doesn’t work that way.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:33)

sacrifice.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (29:42)

And that’s why I called my business Complete Success, because it’s an inner journey of feeling fulfilled because you’re living life fully, you’re loving, you you’re being loving to first to yourself, but also to the people that matter most to you. And you’re leaving a lasting legacy of positive impact. And that’s in the work that you do, but it’s actually every day with way people feel in the supermarket after seeing you.

 

If you do that on the inside and look after those four areas of your life, your health, your mindset, your relationships, do what you love to do and do it in a way that you’re passionate about it and brings good and joy to other people. ⁓ You know, I believe that you are going to live and have that fulfillment on the inside as well as the outside.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:31)

So not to play on the negative, but more on the realistic. you’re on a transformational journey, such as what we’re talking about and setting some really ⁓ clear and aspirational ideas to move forward. Doesn’t always move at the pace that we want. Sometimes things, you know, go forward, go back, go forward.

 

How do you stop that feeling of self-doubt or fear creeping back in at the momentums, not quite as you want it to be?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (31:09)

I love this question, Di. And I’ve got a few different ways to talk about it. First is I like to explain the time that the gestation period, let’s call it, of the vision, you know, of the full seeing and feeling and having the vision that you’re looking for is different for everyone and different in every situation. And no different, you know, to birth a child for a human is nine months and for a, you know, a tomato tree to birth.

 

its tomatoes is, you know, whatever months it is. And so nature has its different gestation period and we’re not always in control of that. So we must have patience. And I describe the time that it takes a little bit like this. Some things come like an espresso, really fast. Some things are a little bit like a cup of tea that needs some brewing. So take a little bit longer.

 

Some things are a little bit like having, you know, that you incorporate a fresh juice as the way to start your day and you don’t really see the benefits and the changes but six months later you’re like, wow, things have really started to shift. And some things are like a fine red wine and take years to percolate and to come into form and all of them are beautiful. We wouldn’t want to have life without any of those four. And so we appreciate

 

that everything has its time and to be patient. I call it to be patient with the result, but be relentless with your action.

 

Most people are the opposite, impatient with the result and are delaying and not taking enough.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:49)

Yeah, with the action. Yeah, I can imagine that. So when life does throw a curve ball and life does, and it might be a job loss or something far more personal and confronting, how do you turn that catalyst, or how do you turn that experience into a catalyst for change?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (33:13)

So I’ll say two things here. One is that you must have a belief system that, you know, things are happening for us, even when they’re uncomfortable. And so it’s very hard to do, but it is the power shift. So when we think that life’s happening to us, then we’re a victim at it. And we’re not looking for the good and the potential that can come from this adversity.

 

⁓ And I believe, know, like even in the fact, you know, the bevels going into voluntary administration and all of those things, it was the greatest gift that ever happened to me, as painful as it was. And I would never want the repercussions for other people because of it. But what it’s actually given me has been the biggest gift ⁓ of life. And I believe that all challenges are there. They’re available for us to

 

really reveal our greatest potential ⁓ if we’re willing to go looking for it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:15)

Yeah. And that’s absolutely been what’s played out with so many of the incredible women that I’ve had over the course of this year and last on Power of Women. I reflect Hannah Asafiri, who had a very challenging start in life with a forced marriage at age 15 and has turned that into a life of advocacy and supporting others. And latterly, Joe Tonarski, who

 

⁓ had the experience within the biggest workplace or the most prominent workplace on the Hill in Canberra of being a toxic workplace that could have broken her and nearly did, but she has come back out of that after a time of recovery and reflection ⁓ to being an advocate to help others who have experienced that. And she used exactly those words, Michelle. She sees it as a gift.

 

not as anything to the negative.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (35:15)

Yeah, but the other thing I would add to that, Di, and you know, I believe in every story is that difficult moment of when you see someone having powerful transformation. ⁓ But is that to do it alone is difficult. And you really do have that you can have that belief system, but it’s hard to hold without a support structure and a system to help you. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:31)

Yeah.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (35:44)

navigate the doubts and the fears because they’re going to be there. Those difficult moments are absolutely going to be there. So if you don’t support yourself during that time, then it’s going to be very, very, it’s not impossible, but way more difficult than it needs to

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:57)

  1. And you’re exactly right, both of those examples that I played out also talk through exactly where that support structure came from, not always from where they expected it come from, ⁓ but they did build a ⁓ considered support structure that assisted them to get beyond the issue that they were both facing at the time.

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (36:21)

I think it’s imperative, know, it’s just part of that hero’s journey that you do need the mentors and the structures to support you.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:30)

Michelle, finally today, if I could ask you for every woman standing on the cusp of her next chapter, what’s the message that you’d have for her around taking that lady?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (36:44)

⁓ Well, be courageous. Don’t wait. We never know, ⁓ A, how long we have here or the difference that it could make in the people’s lives, not just because of the work in the world, but even the people we love most. ⁓ know, so we never know when we’re really going to require it. And we think we have all this abundance of time, but really, you now is the moment. be in my words was be courageous. It’s so good when you are living a life that you love and expressing yourselves in the way that you know is yours to do. It truly is the best place to be.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:29)

Michelle, thank you for reminding us that midlife isn’t a plateau. In fact, it’s a launch plan pattern and absolutely now is exactly that right time. Tell us, how does somebody find you and complete success?

 

MICHELLE STANTON [Guest] (37:46)

Yes, they can just go to complete success.com and very simple. And on there they can read a bit more about me. But I also have a gift for your listeners, which is. Fantastic. Yeah, if that’s OK. It’s a system that I codified and made for helping my clients, help them.

 

be courageous and to take the actions that they want to take and have the mindset so that when those doubts and fears are coming, are running wild, there is a practice, a proven system that really helps people move forward at a quantum leap. And so they can just download these planner and journal, it’s digital, on the website or pop up, it’s easy to do. And literally, it gives you the complete system to help you navigate life’s challenges and continue to

 

you know, advance confidently.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:41)

brilliant, hence complete success. So we’ll add that into the show notes and also if you’re watching this with us on YouTube, you’ll see that run across the screen with the website. Michelle, again, thank you so much. It’s wonderful to have you back and join for a second time. know you joined. We said before we started recording today that it’s about 12 months since we last caught up and

 

and both of us have progressed our businesses ⁓ even more so in that time by having this big picture and self-belief of what we want to do and where we want to be. So if anybody is interested in following Michelle’s guide around that, it is a fantastic template for success.

 

Please be sure to follow what I’m doing on LinkedIn. I do have the newsletter Power of Reinvention where I share a little bit more about me than I do on these podcasts, because this is more about amplifying the stories of the guests that join me. You can follow the podcast on all of the Audible platforms, Apple podcasts, on Spotify. And we put a lot of time in curating it also for you who prefer to watch.

 

And we’ve got our own YouTube channel, the Power of Women podcast channel. So until next time, thanks for joining us.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Michelle at:

Website https://completesuccess.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-stanton-91a8555/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

 

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Why Courage – Not Confidence – Is Underrated – At Any Age

Why Courage – Not Confidence – Is Underrated – At Any Age

by | Nov 23, 2025 | Career Change Over 50, Exemplar, Female Empowerment

From ICU nurse to CEO of one of Australia’s most complex healthcare infrastructure projects, Di Mantell has spent her career proving that leadership has no expiry date.

In this episode, Di joins host Di Gillett to explore why courage matters more than confidence and how purpose and perseverance create real impact. She shares how saying “yes” before you feel ready can change your trajectory, what it takes to lead through complexity, and why visibility for women over 50 isn’t fading – it’s evolving.

 

➡️In this episode you’ll hear:

  • Why bravery is the most under-rated leadership skill
  • Lessons from delivering the world’s largest healthcare sustainability loan
  • How to step forward before you feel ready
  • The truth about visibility and ageism in leadership How mentorship and legacy shape the next generation of leaders

 

Di Mantell said:

“If you step forward and you don’t like it, step sideways. Just don’t wait.”

“Leadership isn’t about titles – it’s about purpose, perseverance and partnerships.”

“Never say never. If someone sees something in you that you can’t yet see, trust them and step up.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI MANTELL [Guest] (00:02)

think it’s about being brave. ⁓ If you look at all of the things that have got you to where you are right now, and you toed up what those skills are and what those roles are and what the things that you have achieved, both personally and professionally, most people are pretty special. And you’ve got the skills and you’ve got the ability to do things. You have to decide that you are going to take that next step and no one else can do that for you. You need to be brave.

 

And If you step forward and you don’t like what it is, well next time maybe you step sideways or maybe you step in a different direction. But it’s not, you can’t sit there and wait. The world doesn’t know you were living.

 

I’ve always believed that leadership isn’t about titles, it’s about purpose, perseverance and partnerships. Purpose gives me direction, perseverance keeps me focused on when things get messy, and partnership, that’s how you actually make things happen. When you lead with your heart, you stay curious and anything is possible.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (01:06)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs, the moments that don’t often make the headlines, but absolutely should.

 

So join the conversation wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts and be part of the power of women community. So let me ask you, do you ever feel invisible? Is purpose a question that you’re grappling with? And do you believe ageism, subtle or not, is still shaping how women are seen, valued and heard in the workplace?

 

Because today’s guest has lived those questions and answered them boldly. Di Mantell isn’t your typical CEO. She’s the pink-haired powerhouse behind Australia’s biggest healthcare milestones. Her leadership philosophy is built on purpose, perseverance and partnerships and a belief that the best decisions are often the ones you’re not quite ready for.

 

From ICU nursing Wagga Wagga to the boardrooms of billion dollar infrastructure and that’s billion with a B, Di’s story is proof that courage compounds and that visibility doesn’t fade with age. In fact, it deepens with purpose. So joining me to challenge a few societal views and share her story, Di Mantell, welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (02:55)

Thanks, Di,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (02:57)

I,

 

you’re known as I said as the pinkhead powerhouse. We might share that pink in common. Who delivered Australia’s largest healthcare sustainability loan and what people may not realise is that your leadership story started a long way from the boardroom. Di, what was your first job?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:18)

My first job was a ballroom and Latin American dancing teacher.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:23)

Here

 

you go. What age, Di?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:27)

I was about 14, 15, I think, when I started. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:30)

And

 

still able to throw it out on the dance floor.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:36)

⁓ not as good as I was, but yeah, I can still do it, I think.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:40)

Brilliant. So if you look back now, what were the moments that set your leadership DNA?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:47)

thought about this a lot. I think I was initially quite reserved and I definitely wasn’t a cool kid at school. Definitely that wasn’t me. I think when I started nursing that gave me the skills and courage to stand up for what I thought was right and how things would work. But I never ever thought of being a leader. I had twins at 22, quite young, because I had endometriosis and it was then or never.

 

So that teaches you a lot about being organised and getting your act together, I think. But for me, think deciding that if I wanted to make changes and do things, then I had to get on and do them because I was a young mum, went back to working. ⁓ I knew what I didn’t want to do, but I don’t think I was quite as clear about what I did want to do.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:39)

enough. So Di you often talk about achieving the impossible which sounds like you started really early in doing that. What’s the drive behind that view?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (04:52)

For me, think Having a really clear purpose enables you to drive an impact. And I think if perseverance is about delivering with heart, I love a shiny ball as much as anyone and a challenge that pops up and then you think that looks really cool and then work out how the hell you’re actually going to do it. And I love proving people wrong that they say, you couldn’t possibly do that. I know when I worked on the Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth,

 

We put out a services contract for 25 services to support the new Fiona Stanley Hospital and everyone went, you will never get someone that will subcontract that, that’s too big. It was the largest services contract let in the Southern hemisphere. ⁓ And we did get it and we did prove that we could do it and we got a successful candidate for it and we put them in place. When we did the green and social loan, no one had ever done that before.

 

There was no green and social finance framework, so I had to write one. It wasn’t something I ever thought I would do. But I think once you decide you’re going to do it, you just need to buckle down and work out, what does that mean? What do I have to do now and how do I get there? And for me, I love that challenge and I love proving that I can do it, even though I don’t necessarily think I have the skills when I maybe start that decision.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (06:13)

You’ve

 

done a lot of first-offs by the sound of that Di. A lot of startups, a lot of leading initiatives, because I would take it that the Fiona Stanley Hospital came out of the Bali tragedy. Is that right?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (06:27)

It, no, so part of it was, I think they decided after they did a big review, ⁓ the READ review in WA, that they needed to have a new hospital. What is quite unusual is to have what they call a greenfield site, where you basically aren’t knocking down one hospital to build another one, which is often what happens, which is what we’ve done in Adelaide. But it was building a brand new site that would have more services and would be state of the art. And most teaching hospitals last about

 

you know, good 50 odd years, you know, before you get another one. So you need to do them well. But it did enable us to take pieces from a number of hospitals and bring that together, put a whole new culture into that facility, put a whole, do a services contract with the private sector and then be able to still build up the services in the other hospitals that remain. So it was, there were only two greenfield sites being done at the time worldwide when we did that one. yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (07:25)

So

 

if we just wind back to sort of your career build, Di, because you said you didn’t have that much sort of confidence and here you are leading these extraordinary initiatives. So if I look back, you became a nurse unit manager at 23 and if I’m right, you said you didn’t actually even apply for that job. So how did that shape your, that early experience in that scenario, shape your self-confidence and belief in yourself?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (07:55)

I knew that I was clinically strong and I really loved ICU and I would still do it today if I went back to doing clinical work that’s where I would go back to. And I really, really loved ICU at the time. In nursing and in clinical work, certainly in nursing, a lot of the time you are promoted because you’re very good and strong clinically. You’re not good because you’re necessarily a manager but you get promoted to a management role.

 

So you’re right, I didn’t apply. Other people in the unit did apply and I was asked to take on the role. And after I’d said no three times and then said I would do it for six weeks.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:32)

Why

 

did you say no, Di? What was holding you back at that point?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (08:36)

I think it was more that I knew other people had applied for it who had been there for longer than me and I thought that’s fine, that works for them. I had young children so shift work sort of worked for me but I didn’t think, I hadn’t thought that I had those skills that I thought you needed to be a nurse unit manager.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:55)

So you were doubting yourself more so than thinking you had time to do it? Yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (09:00)

Yeah, it was a combination because most nurse unit managers at that time were like 55, 60, they’d been there forever. They were a very different sort of design focus than what I thought I was. And so for me, it was like, no, no, well, I’m happy for them to do it. I hadn’t really thought I would ever want to do that. I was very clear on things that I didn’t want to do. I wasn’t probably as clear on what I wanted to do. But for me, when I took on the role, ⁓

 

for my six weeks, I decided that I would definitely wanted to be exceptional in doing it. So what I wanted to go and do was to go and get the skills to do it. So I put myself through a Bachelor of Health Science Management, which was an external studies program that ran over six years, which ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:45)

top of twins, on top of the extra responsibility. Yeah, yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (09:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was insane, absolutely insane and going to Bathurst twice a year for residential school. So, ⁓ but I was determined that if I was going to do it, I would have the qualifications. So there was no disputing that I was actually qualified to do the role. So ⁓ I’m glad I took it. It was an amazing opportunity. It was a very cool job to do. And I didn’t want to fail. Once I decided I was doing it.

 

Failing was non-negotiable, so I just had to move forward and make it work.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:21)

How’d you juggle everything? What was the stress level like?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (10:24)

I never studied before 9.30 at night when I put the children to bed. ⁓ So, and I worked my day shift and whatnot, but whenever we were busy on a long weekend, a weekend at work, I would still go and cover. So yeah, was a pretty crazy period of time.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:42)

even going to ask you to to ⁓ to tally up the hours there’s no point so it was a lot yeah. So you’ve said growth happens when you take a leap and that was absolutely ⁓ a leap but have you ever done that before you were you felt that you were ready was was that your thinking behind the I’m taking this but I’m going to catch up with the with the ⁓

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (10:48)

I’m

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:11)

the education as I go along. It will.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (11:13)

Yes,

 

think I’ve done, yeah, I think I’ve taken a leap a few times and not thought about it. I made a decision to leave New South Wales and go to Kalgoorlie, full disclosure, I’d got divorced and I decided that I needed to be in a different town. So I went from Tumut in Snowy Mountains to Kalgoorlie, so I probably couldn’t have gone much further within Australia.

 

I took on the role there of the executive director of nursing for Northern Goldfields Health Service and it was an incredible opportunity and it serviced from Leonor and Laverton which is about 300 odd kilometres north of Kalgoorlie, 600 kilometres from Perth for those who don’t know and all the way down to Esperance at the coast. I didn’t know anyone there, I didn’t even go there for the interview, I had the interview done in

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:04)

⁓ wow, that’d be a shock culturally of arriving there.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (12:09)

Yeah, yeah. And a number of my friends had said, but what if you don’t like it? And I said, well, I’ll go and do something else. And the advantage of having a skills base of nursing was you do have opportunities to go and do other things. So that’s all fine. But for me, you should never underestimate the skill base that you’ve actually got. Like if, you know, what got you there will get you to somewhere else.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:35)

That’s a brilliant point of self-belief that a lot of people don’t have. So your take on that is if it all goes to mud, there’s another opportunity around the corner. Yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (12:50)

Yeah, yeah. mean, so many people don’t take a role because they go, but what if I don’t like it? Or what if it doesn’t work for me? You’re not signing up for life. Like if you should give it a red hot crack and you should definitely do it for a good 12 months or more to see unless it’s really catastrophic or toxic, but you should give it a really good run. And if it doesn’t work, then go and do something else.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:07)

Yeah, great advice.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (13:16)

You’re not there. It’s not like you know, folks who used to get a job that would take them all the way through. So take the opportunity to come up and to see what happens.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:25)

Brilliant. So you’ve done quite a few pivots along the way, Di, from leadership to big infrastructure roles with these hospital builds. What have those shifts taught you about leadership and risk?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (13:39)

⁓ When I first started my career, ⁓ I was deciding between whether I was going to be a nurse or I was going to be a home economics teacher, which I just started out now. ⁓ And I came from a family of nurses, so I was probably fairly destined that I was going to be a nurse. ⁓ As I said before, I knew what I didn’t want to do. I didn’t want to do midwifery and I didn’t want to be a matron, which shows how long ago I trained.

 

⁓ So I was very clear about what I didn’t want to do and when I had my twins I had this idealistic view that I would never have to work again, that I would go and have children and I would swan around and do whatever I don’t know what

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (14:18)

So you weren’t ambitious at that point or had you just been… Okay.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (14:24)

I think I just thought, no, no, I’ve done that. I’ve had the children. Twins is pretty full on. I’ll do all of that stuff and be a mum. I don’t know why. I’m not a parents and citizens sort of, you know, social mum group type of a girl. But I thought about that. But then I thought, I’ve now worked out I’ve done 27 roles in my time. So I figured that when interest rates went to 18 % and my husband’s business wasn’t doing much,

 

that one of us had to make a move. So I went back to work, which is when I then got the opportunity for ICU. ⁓ But I think it’s not necessary. I haven’t been one of those that said, I’m here and now I want to be there. That was never me. I’ve got a number of friends who’ve been very clear about that. Like they wanted to do midwifery and then they wanted to do something else and that was all fine. For me, it was more, we’ll just see what happens.

 

And I think I had a real advantage working in regional centres. Working away from metropolitan areas gives you so many more opportunities than you necessarily get when you work in the Metro, especially in health care.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (15:33)

And I guess there’s a talent pool who’s not prepared to move to those locations too.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (15:39)

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting when those areas are sort of staff and say, would you like to go out there? They oh no, I couldn’t do that. So you do get a lot of opportunities to step forward and step up. And one of the opportunities for me was I had only been at Kalgoorlie for five months and I was asked to go and represent 22 rural health services to negotiate the nurses wage case on behalf of rural health. And I said to them, are you sure you’ve got the right person? I’ve only just got here.

 

And they said, well, you’re the perfect person because you’re not tainted by anything that’s gone on before. And it’s like, ⁓ OK. And again, they said, it’s about a six week process. ⁓ It wasn’t. It was six months. And then it took about two years to roll it out. But it gave me the opportunity to now go and negotiate and sit at the table on behalf of the Director General of Health and represent 22 rural health services. Like, I would never have thought I would be doing

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (16:35)

Yeah, but the marketplace knew you were capable. What’s coming through, Di, is you’ve been headhunted on multiple occasions based on proving yourself in ⁓ the positions you’ve undertaken.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (16:48)

Yeah, and you don’t think of it like that at the time. Like when they said to do it and go to Perth, I went to Perth 35 times in 12 months to do these negotiations. But as a result of doing that, I then got a role in Perth. I then eventually met my husband to a friend I met at the hotel I stayed at.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (17:05)

was

 

going to say, how’d you have time? Fortunately he was at the hotel.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (17:09)

Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, but then the opportunities just then open up to be able to roll it out and then go and see all of West Australia ⁓ and visit sites and see them and develop strategies and processes that are now embedded in WA Health for things. But that was never something you could have even envisaged to do it. And then because of the work that I did, the Director General for WA Health,

 

invited me into his office and he said, I need to talk to about what’s happened. And I thought I’d done something wrong. And he said, I’d like to congratulate you on how well you’ve negotiated for the rural health services. The general managers are really happy. And I would like to thank you by sending you to a conference and I’d like to send you to Edinburgh. And I thought, it’s not Edinburgh, it’s WA. What? And he goes, no, no, no, in Scotland to attend a CEO conference on my behalf to go and do it. And it’s like,

 

wow. And I got to that, the other lady got sent up the coast to a site, so the Metro, so I felt very privileged. But it wasn’t something you could plan to do. But if you’re prepared to say yes when the opportunity comes up and providing it sort of within, you know, sounds reasonable or semi reasonable, you just don’t know where that will take you. Like that changed my whole pivot and direction of what I’m doing right now.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (18:33)

Just that point alone, being prepared to say yes and take a chance and back yourself. mean, let’s pause on that for a moment, Di. You were speaking to some of the up and coming executives who might listen to this Podcast for inspiration. What would you say to them about that?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (18:52)

Never say never. And if somebody says something to you about, would you consider this? And you go, if inside you’re going, no, I couldn’t possibly do that. I don’t have those skills or whatnot. Don’t say that. Say to them, could I just ask you, what do you see in me that clearly I don’t see in me that makes you think I can do this role? And then you may find something about yourself that you’re not even aware of or that you, that

 

makes you suitable for this role.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (19:24)

And if I listen to what you’re saying and put my executive search hat on, I mean, you’re not out there overselling yourself. You’re simply out there delivering and your performance is being recognised. But you are still probably one of the most humble people sitting on the other side of the interview table, given all the achievements you’ve had, which is fantastic. Di, you’ve been the first to achieve

 

global sustainability milestones in the work that you’ve done. What does it take to keep breaking new ground in sectors that traditionally do resist change?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (20:02)

I think it’s really important that you have a really clear direction in your head. So you need to know what your purpose is and where you’re going. You may not necessarily know how you’re going to get there, but you need to have that clarity around where you’re going. Because if you’re leading a team in this process, then you need to be able to articulate to them what it is you’re doing so that they can go with you. Because otherwise they’re sitting there going, well, I don’t know.

 

I don’t know what you’re trying to say or what you’re trying to do. So I think it’s important that you can articulate that. You shouldn’t ask anyone to do anything that you won’t do yourself. ⁓ And for me, that’s always been really important. I’m happy to sit down and write frameworks and do structures and get it all set up and then talk to people about how we do it. But I will never get someone to do something that I haven’t done. ⁓ When we did the Green and Social Finance Framework at the time,

 

There’s this group called the Asia Pacific Loan Managers Association, very exciting group of people who write these loan, social loan principles. And when they had written them, one came out in, the green ones came out in April 21 and the social principles came out in May. And we just, one of my board directors asked you if we could do this particular loan. So we were using a commercial advisor at the time and it became apparent early

 

that they’d done a bit on green loans, but they hadn’t actually done a green and social loan. So I had a choice that we could either keep getting all the information and handing it to them and then they would put it in a PowerPoint and give it back to me or I could do it myself. And I don’t come from a finance background, clearly. So I decided that it was silly me briefing them to give them me something back that I’d already written. So I sat down and wrote a green and social finance framework on the floor of my apartment.

 

over two nights and then gave it to the board and gave it to our commercial advisors and said, this is what I think we need to do. And then we got it assessed. So you have to actually get an assurance piece done by an independent assurance group, which we did. And they made some minor changes to it. And then we adopted it. And then you put it out to the market. This was mid COVID. So going to the market to do a refinance to start with in COVID was insane.

 

But we went to the market not knowing whether we would get the acceptance of what we were putting out there and we were doubly subscribed. So we had over $4 billion on the table and that’s been publicly noted to us on a secret. That’s pretty cool position to be in when you need 2.2 to be able to say, right, we do have it and the green and social finance framework is what drew people in because it was new and it was different.

 

and we committed that we would meet certain criteria to meet the loan. ⁓ But if somebody had asked me that six months before that, I would have never thought I could do that. Like, just never.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:04)

However, this thread of stepping up and doing something that you hadn’t done before and stepping out of your comfort zone plays all the way through your career.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (23:16)

Yeah, it’s a level of craziness I think that has been consistently…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:19)

I’ll call it a level of confidence, Di, but maybe crazy given the scope and the amount that you’ve tacked on. So I am talking with Di Mantell, leadership powerhouse in the healthcare sector, and stay with us because coming up we’re going to talk about visibility, ageing and owning your next chapter.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So, Di, you’ve said leadership’s got no expiry date, but you and I both know that society is telling women, particularly us women over 50, that visibility kind of begins to fade with age. albeit I’m not sure that that necessarily applies to you and I when you take a look at us. But that being said, Have you ever felt that pressure personally?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (24:22)

Yeah, I was actually told I was too young for one of my early roles and they said, no, no, you’re not experienced enough to go and do that. So ⁓ from very early on, I’d had that. ⁓ So I haven’t been told that I’m too old for doing the things, but I’m very well aware that women don’t talk about their age. So ⁓ they don’t.

 

I don’t personally go, So I’m 60 plus GST. I’m very happy and proud of that. But we, yeah, but We don’t, and we don’t tend to talk about that a lot. But if you ask a man, you never ever hear anyone when somebody, when a man is applying for something about what their age, it just is never ever in the conversation. And I think that’s okay, but I don’t know why women obsess about it. And I know that at times we are judged much more harshly.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:54)

You and I both.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (25:18)

⁓ in lots of professions for that. And I just think it has no role. For me, you are either good enough to do the role or you are not. That’s it. ⁓ I don’t care whether you’re black, blue, green, what your religious status is, sexual ⁓ favors, whatever. I don’t care about any of that. I only care that you’re good enough to do the role. The technical skills and the cultural fit are what works for me when I’m looking for someone for a role.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (25:47)

of that of the female doubt and questioning the age bit, do you think we put upon ourselves versus society?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (25:58)

A lot, a lot. I think, ⁓ you know, if you put two or three males up against two or three females in any picture and whatnot, you will see who’s, you know, worked really hard to be where they are and what they look like. ⁓ But I think we are very quick to…

 

denigrate what we’ve done or say that you know we’re not good enough or play down and you know there’s that story that’s gone around for long time about you know if you look at a job description women see all the things they haven’t done and men find two things and know that it’s true.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (26:29)

I mean it’s been going around a long time but it’s absolutely true.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (26:33)

Yeah, and that victim mentality is definitely alive and well. I did a webinar earlier this year for a group that was about 350 people, of which about 80 % were female. And the number of people who commented on there about, oh my gosh, thank you so much for giving me things to talk about and be confident in what I’m doing. I’ve never felt like that before. I always felt that I wasn’t good enough. And it’s like, why? Why are we so harsh on ourselves about it?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:03)

Why do you think that is? What do you think it is? Is it conditioning? Upbringing?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (27:09)

I think, yeah, I think part of its conditioning, I think it’s part of the way that people are represented in the media. I think, you know, there’s a lot of, ⁓ there’s a lot of movies and ⁓ social media things out there that definitely play to that. And I think while ever we don’t say it’s not okay, we’re adding to that. So for me, I’ve never thought it like that. ⁓ I’m clearly not a conforming person necessarily, but

 

But I don’t consider that I’m actually a rogue or really radical. It’s just, I don’t accept that that’s how you have to be. So, ⁓ and it is a choice, but there are a lot of people who definitely have a victim mentality and want someone else to keep telling them they’re okay. That’s not someone else’s job. You have to sort that out for yourself. You have to decide what your standards are, what matters to you, what your values are, and what you will tolerate.

 

And if you want to sit there and be sad in the corner and think the world as you were living, then that’s entirely up to you. But you won’t get opportunities that are out there if you’re prepared to step forward. But I don’t understand it, but I can’t.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:17)

Yeah, and if you think back to your point about film and we’ll call it Hollywood, not that it’s necessarily Hollywood, but there were lots of subservient role models of women played out on the screens when you and I were growing up, but there equally today is some fantastic ⁓ films and series and footage out there of women being the powerhouse and the go-getters and dynamic and we will see that.

 

play out in society and how women present without question because you can see it, you can believe it and you think you can do it.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (28:53)

Absolutely, absolutely.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:55)

So with that in mind, What’s your advice to women in midlife who do feel invisible or underestimated, be it professionally or personally?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (29:06)

I think it’s about being brave. If you look at all of the things that have got you to where you are right now, and you toed up what those skills are and what those roles are and what the things that you have achieved both personally and professionally, most people are pretty special. And you’ve got the skills and you’ve got the ability to do things. You have to decide that you are going to take that next step and no one else can do that for you. You need to be brave.

 

And If you step forward and you don’t like what it is, well next time maybe you step sideways or maybe you step in a different direction. But it’s not, you can’t sit there and wait. The world doesn’t know you were living. And it’s important for you to take the skills that you’ve got. Be a role model for the people around you, whether it’s your children or your grandchildren or your nieces or your friends or whatever. People are looking for good role models of people that will step up and…

 

and show the skills that are important for people to thrive and be good members of community. You need to find your tribe and it may be a small tribe or it might be a really big tribe, but find people that are like-minded. And it can be in your friend group or your local community, or it can be through podcasts like yours. This is so powerful for people to get confidence and learn new skills about what is out there and what you can and can’t do.

 

The number of amazing people that you interview, there will be somebody in there that you find aligns with what you want to do. Someone for… Yeah, so use those skills. And also, if you’re working in an organisation now and you’ve been sitting in the same little role and you want to do something else, tell your boss what you want to do. Because if you’ve set a little period and they don’t know and you’ve never put your hand up for an acting role or a second man or whatever,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (30:39)

everybody it’s such a mix.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (31:02)

They don’t have ESP. Lots of bosses are really clever, but they won’t necessarily think that you want that if you’ve never told them. So put your hand up and say, next time there’s an opportunity, I’d really like to do that. And they might be really surprised and go, that’s amazing. I never knew that’s what you wanted to do. But use those opportunities to step out of your comfort zone and find something different that might inspire you.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (31:27)

They

 

are all such invaluable points, Di, and I love every one of those. So coming back to you for a moment, when you look back and in fact when you look forward at the legacy you want to leave in leadership and in life, what might that be?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (31:45)

First of no one’s ever asked me that before, so the great question. I want to be a really good role model for my children and my grandchildren. I have got a powerhouse granddaughter. I’ve got three gorgeous grandsons as well, but I have a powerhouse granddaughter and I want her to really know that the sky’s limit for her. She’s named, her second name is after my mum and my mum is definitely in this little lady, so she will be a powerhouse.

 

I want to, I really, really hope that, ⁓ so I’m finishing my CEO role at the end of this year and I’m moving to do more board roles and keynote speaking and mentoring. Yes, very exciting, very exciting next phase. I’m hopeful that the culture that I have embedded in this organisation outlives me. ⁓ I think we’ve worked very hard to have a really well respected organisation that does a lot of really good things.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (32:25)

stick stick.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (32:42)

contractually for what we need to deliver, but also within the community that we serve. So for me, that’s really, really important. And I hope people just see my passion ⁓ and maybe that that inspires someone else to want to do things. I’ve got a lot of things that I still want to do. ⁓ And for me, being passionate and really caring about the things that I believe in are really important. So hopefully that will continue.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:09)

Fantastic. So if I sum that up, there’s another young Dai mental coming through in the next generation with a dose of grandma, which is clearly where you got some of your spirit and drive from being your mother. And without doubt, the legacy that you’ve left behind in the role that you’re stepping away from will endure because that’s what good leadership does. So well done, Dai.

 

As we come to a close, my final question that I would love you to respond to today, Di, and you’ve mentored countless women along the way, particularly in the industry in which you’ve specialised and through mentor walks and leadership programs and going forward you will in your board roles. What do you see that is holding women back so significantly today and how do we change it?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (34:10)

⁓ I think it goes back to being brave. think it’s interesting. I went to mental walks this morning. So we met Bright and Shiny this morning here in Adelaide. ⁓ And all of these women were very accomplished people and whatnot. And a lot of it ⁓ is just about being brave. They’ve got the positions that they have because they are good and they’ve earned them. So that’s why they are where they are.

 

What you choose to do next is now a decision that you need to make and that’s a matter of either saying, no this is it, I’m happy to plateau out here and this works for me and I’ve got my dream job.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:48)

And it’s okay, yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (34:50)

Yeah, absolutely. And not everyone wants to be a high achiever. I mean, that’s perfect.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:55)

It gets pointier at the top, Di. There’s not enough room for everybody to be there.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (35:00)

If you want to be the person who runs the school canteen or the community groups or the things, they are all important ⁓ in our organisations and in our communities. But for me, if you want to go and step forward, the only thing holding you back is you. You’ve got access to a large amount of skills. Places like LinkedIn have amazing opportunities for leveraging and learning off really clever, intelligent people.

 

If you don’t put your hand up and tell people you want to do things, then people won’t know. And you need to take those opportunities. And like I said before, if you take it and you don’t like it, go and do something else. That’s okay. But you are in control of your next step.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (35:46)

Beautiful. And it is why I am taking ownership of the hashtag Never Assume because if you don’t try, you don’t step forward, you don’t put yourself out there, you just might never know. that’s great. That’s great, Di. So heading into the world of board roles, I imagine that’s still going to be a meaty ⁓ part of your career journey because I can’t see you sitting back and

 

and watching the water every day.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (36:21)

Absolutely not. No, no, I could think of nothing worse than not being able to give back. ⁓ And board work for me is a real opportunity to take all the things I’ve learned up until now and be able to give back in a really positive way. ⁓ The Silver Chain Board I’m on currently and the Australasian College of Health Service Management State Council, which is a mini board, are both amazing opportunities to continue to make a difference. And so for me, reaching out

 

further to do more of those types of roles in infrastructure or in sport or whatever comes around. I think the skills I’ve got I would really like to be able to use them to give back and hopefully make a difference for some other organisations.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (37:04)

the job ad, So we’ve got that bit out of the way. well done. If anybody is looking for a damn dynamic CEO with C-suite leadership and specialisation in infrastructure development, Di is your woman. So well done, Di. Di, thank you so much for joining me on the Podcast. It’s such an inspirational story of a career of somebody who probably thought they were going to spend their life being a

 

a home mum to being such an inspirational CEO and leader and with a fabulous board career in front of you. And I know Dai is active on LinkedIn, so if you’re looking to get in touch with Dai or have got a board opportunity that you’d like to talk to her about, I know that you’ll be able to find Dai there. And equally, follow me on the socials and I too spend a fair bit of time on LinkedIn. So if you want to learn about what I’m

 

doing. am also there and I publish a weekly newsletter now, Power of Reinvention. Please be sure to follow the Podcast and share this episode because Dai’s career experience and leadership advice is invaluable. Until next time.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

 

Find Di Mantell at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/di-mantell/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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Entrepreneurial Insights: Building, Burning Out & Coming Back Stronger

Entrepreneurial Insights: Building, Burning Out & Coming Back Stronger

by | Nov 17, 2025 | Exemplar, Female Entrepreneur, Female Leaders

In this fast-paced and deeply honest conversation, I sit down with Mandi Gunsberger, five-time founder and visionary dealmaker behind Babyology and Nourish Travel. We explore what it really costs to build something extraordinary: the burnout, the identity traps, the pressure of keeping it all together and the courage it takes to stop, reset, and start again.

From founding a multi-million-dollar business to selling it and rediscovering herself through a year in Tuscany, Mandi shares powerful lessons on entrepreneurship, wellbeing, and the importance of connection over hustle. A masterclass in business growth, resilience, and the power of vulnerability, when success and self collide.

 

➡️In this episode, we explore:

➜ The early lessons that shaped Mandi’s entrepreneurial drive

➜ The fine line between ambition and exhaustion

➜ How genuine connection beats traditional networking

➜ The reality of burnout — and how to spot the signs early

➜ What Tuscany taught her about slowing down to speed up

➜ How Nourish Travel helps others prioritise wellbeing without guilt

 

This is more than a business conversation. It’s a blueprint for balance, resilience and redefining success on your own terms.

 

Mandi said:

“You’ve got to love the build.”

“You are enough even when you pause.”

“Asking for help is a strength.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (00:00)

I’m a serial entrepreneur and I’ve built five businesses over the last 25 years. I also believe that life is not linear and our lives are all full of twists and turns to teach us who we really are and give us power in this world. I believe ⁓ integrity.

 

Connection and ⁓ curiosity are my main values in life, those three things. And I’m happiest, I think, when I’m creating something meaningful, surrounding myself with really good people.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:34)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is where real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs and the moments that often don’t make the headlines but should.

 

So join the conversation and subscribe please wherever you listen to your podcast because that helps us amplify the message out there and be part of the power of women community. Have you ever thought about starting your own business? Today’s conversation is with Mandi Gunsberger, five-time founder, visionary dealmaker and powerhouse behind Babyology and Nourish Travel.

 

We’re going to talk about the real cost of entrepreneurship, which includes burnout, identity, and the pressure of holding it all together whilst building something truly extraordinary. It’s a fast-paced masterclass in business growth, connection, and the power of vulnerability. Mandi Goodensberger, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (01:51)

Thanks so much for having me, Di. I’m so excited to be here today and share all the good, the bad, and a lot of the ugly about building businesses and what that entails.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (02:03)

brilliant. So let the masterclass begin. You’ve, look, I don’t even know where to start because there’s a lot with it, Mandi, but you’ve built five businesses, you’ve raised three daughters, you’ve successfully sold on Australia’s largest parent media company, which was Babyology. Where does your entrepreneurial spirit come from?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (02:26)

Yeah, that’s an interesting question to start with and I’d have to say number one, it would be my dad. He was 100 % my person and he was a very different type of entrepreneur, I suppose, in the 70s and the 80s. He was an entrepreneur for necessity, and to put food on the table versus what a lot of us do now. So, you know, he owned a record company. He was a jewelry salesman. He was a clown at kids birthday parties. ⁓ I remember at the age of

 

five going on newspaper runs with him at 5am, know, where you’d throw the newspaper out the car and it would end up in someone’s front garden. So, you know, he was always hustling just for the next dollar to be able to feed us, you know, very middle class.

 

that I grew up in and so he had to do that but I feel like I’ve always hustled from a young age as well. ⁓ used to, well don’t know if that’s a hustle really, I used to steal money from the bank in Monopoly when I used to play that with my sister. That’s more illegal than.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:26)

Nope,

 

yeah, but it’ll be hustle.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (03:29)

No,

 

but I would have an auction in our room every week when we were kids and she was older than me and I would auction off both our toys to her and try and make a few bucks until mum found out what was going on. really from the age of 13, I worked in hairdressing salons. I worked in a bakery, you know, from 5am. I used to work in cafes or stock shelves at the supermarket. So I was always looking, you know, selling local cookies in the area and things like that. So I think that’s when it all started.

 

for me was in my teenage years and then moving over to San Francisco in my early 20s was just so incredibly eye-opening.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:08)

What did you do? What was that?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:10)

Oh,

 

was crazy. So I was able to somehow wangle myself a work visa, which is very, very hard to do from Australia to America. But I just finished uni. I was 22 years old. I moved out with my boyfriend and I worked in hotels. I worked in the Hilton, Hyatt and Intercontinental hotels, which was a crazy world to be in. And I think I managed to get there because it was dot com era. So, you know, lot of regular people leaving regular jobs in the Bay Area to go for the dot com where you’d go canoeing on a Friday.

 

there’d be fizzball in the break rooms and all that stuff. So it was actually a good time for me to wangle my way in and to…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:47)

Very

 

Google, Mandi.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:49)

It was very Google. It was when all of that was just starting to happen. And you’d see 22 year olds over there driving a Ferrari, ordering a burger with a $600 bottle of wine from Napa. So I think I just really was like, wow, that’s really impressive. So when we moved back from San Francisco when I was 24, 25, I really had that entrepreneurial spirit in me.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:12)

Yeah, wow, great story. So with that in mind, what fuels you more? it the buzz of creating and scaling a business or is it the satisfaction of seeing the successful exit?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (05:26)

Oh gosh, 100 % they’re creating the business every single time. think, you know, the buzz of coming up with an idea, acting on it, working bloody hard for many years, you know, they’re not overnight successes by all means and turning it into something profitable that comes from that idea is just so rewarding. I mean, if you’re in it just for the exit in Australia, I think nowadays 10 % of startups, you know,

 

fail within the first year and 70 % fail within those next two to five years. So if you’re in it to be at that exit.

 

you know, 90 % it’s not going to happen. I think even higher if you’re a woman, to be honest. So a successful exit, while it is pure gold, it’s incredibly unlikely that you have that successful exit. So you’ve really got to love the build. You’ve got to love the drive. You’ve got to love working every second of every day to build something that you believe in. And I think, yeah, one of my incredible mentors, Jane Huxley, way back when actually taught me a very early how

 

you go into a new business idea while planning your exit. So it might never happen. But I think it’s worth thinking about when you build, like what you want it to look like. Do you want it to be a lifestyle business? Do you want to sell out of it? Do you want to stay on when someone buys it? You know, all those questions. Because I think that really affects ⁓ the way you build it. You know, determining how you set it up, if you take funding, who you take funding from along the way. So it does affect the final outcome.

 

So I do now when I launch something these days I do work backwards as to what does this look like in 10, 15, 20 years? Because that does really affect the way you run it but absolutely hands down I love the build. I love getting that first sale. I love you know when profit actually exceeds what it should be, what you thought it would be. Yeah, it’s never about the exit although it’s obviously very exciting. I did have one big exit but again five businesses one exit so. It happens all the time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:28)

Yeah,

 

but that that hustle is is what you developed as a kid. mean, that’s the kid trading off your toys in the in the bedroom.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (07:38)

Definitely.

 

And especially for someone like me where all my businesses are not in a specific area, it’s literally sitting there and going, huh, someone else is not doing this. So for instance, coming back from San Francisco and being obsessed with those triangular scones that they had at Starbucks at the time and thinking I’m going to be the next Byron Bay cookie company because that’s not here yet. You know, so it’s, it’s any idea I come up with, I just launch myself into and see where it goes.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:04)

Yeah, and that’s a great visionary mindset to read what’s going on in the marketplace and be curious. And I love that attitude. So that’s pretty.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:14)

Absolutely, it’s about seeing what’s not around and then actually discovering why it’s not around. Maybe there’s a very good reason no one else has gone up against that company, but if there’s not, you just think, well, if I don’t do it, someone else might do it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:26)

Yeah.

 

So you’ve developed a reputation as a relationship ninja and visionary deal maker. How did those tags come about?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:38)

.

 

⁓ Look, I think I’ve always been a people person from a very young age, like from a child, and then moving into hospitality as my first career as well led me to understand and know a lot about people. And I think when I look at that and the way partnerships work, I look at partnerships as being a lot like great relationships. So they’re really about the people behind them and building those connections rather than, ⁓ you know, the paperwork and what goes into it.

 

I think for me trust and respect is a big one. So actually finding people who care about each other’s success is huge in this space. ⁓ Having shared values is another big one. It’s not just about the goals, it’s about alignment with one another. And honest communication often when you meet people or you’re trying to work on partnerships, ⁓ you know, it’s not working out and it’s about having those difficult conversations or working out how to pivot or going your own way at an early stage.

 

and realising it wasn’t meant to be. That’s very important rather than holding on to something for much longer than you should have because you think it should work out. So for me it’s always been about real connection with people, 100%. So any deal, any partnership, anyone I’ve ever worked with has started with a genuine chat rather than necessarily a pitch. And a great example I think of with something like that is a dear friend of mine, ⁓ Rob Antelov,

 

who’s actually an incredible ⁓ &A advisor. ⁓ He was and he still is. And when I was building Babyology, Rob, probably after two years, approached me or I met him through a friend of mine and we had a coffee and I was nowhere near any type of ⁓ &A exit, whatever. And this is what he does. But I think probably for the next six or seven years, I would have a coffee or chat to Rob every year or every 18 months and just ask for his advice and he’d give it out to me, with no idea that when it came

 

to what I would approach him. And I’d actually met other advisors through the journey and worked with them for a while. But when it came to, you know, me raising money at the end and selling the business and who I wanted by my side, hands down, it was Rob, because I’d built that trust with him. He’d given me all that knowledge over those years. And I mean, that was a brilliant experience for me and for him. And since then, I think I’ve introduced him to 15 to 20 other entrepreneurial friends who he’s, you know, given advice to over the years. Some of them he’s sold their businesses.

 

some of them he hasn’t but I look at that as a real pinnacle for what relationships and partnerships out there are is that whole you know you stand by someone for years you don’t know if it’s ever gonna go anywhere but when the time comes you know it might go somewhere and then it’s it’s a win for everyone so a huge influence in my life yeah no he’s good guy and I don’t think

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:25)

Yeah, to crystal

 

And I agree,

 

think partnerships are so hard. I I’ve worked for individuals who’ve been probably the longest standing partners in the search and recruitment world. And it’s admirable because it is not easy to choose partners. I’ve gone into business with people before and I’ve looked to go into business with people before and read the you know, seen the red flag just before we’ve done.

 

signed on the dotted line and I approached it really like a marriage because it’s much easier to call it before you get married than trying to unbundle it once you’re married.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:10)

and a lot of people don’t get to do, a lot of people find out after the time that it’s not a good fit with someone. And it really is, you spend more time than your business partner than you do with your actual partner if you’re in business. And one thing I’ve always done is I’ve never had a business with other people that, know, partnership with them. It just isn’t my style, I don’t think. I like to make decisions very quickly and you can’t often do that when you’ve got two or three founders.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:37)

Well, when you got to buy in, I know I was in business with somebody you always used to say to me, and I love them dearly and they’re a friend, but they were, I’m like you, I’m a quick decision maker. And they would always say, I need to think about it overnight. I’d go,

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:52)

hahahaha

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:55)

Exactly. And that’s what I’m-

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:57)

I know yeah and look sometimes you need those people to slow you down because I don’t always

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:02)

They weren’t away,

 

they were often right. I often stop me jumping into the deep end too soon.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:10)

No, absolutely. But I also find that it’s hard to get slowed down. Board work is a great example of where everything moves very slowly on boards. And I’m like, we’ve got the meeting now. Why don’t we all just say yes? Why are we tabling it for the next three month meeting? I just don’t understand how that works.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:28)

Have you had advisory boards wrapped around your businesses, Mandi?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:34)

I’ve had advisory boards but never actual boards which I think is for that reason. So I’ve always employed advisors or paid advisors or given them equity but I haven’t had a full know NED board experience around me. I’ve been an NED but I haven’t had them on my board because I just don’t think that’s a way that I work very well with seven other people telling me like this is what we want to do and we want to go back and we want to review this. I’d be like I’m already halfway there so yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:00)

Yeah, you’re one of these people it’s hard to keep pace with so I can see that.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:07)

Yeah, we’ll get to that afterwards. It’s not always the best way.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:12)

Yeah. So when you’re networking, Mandi, when you walk into a room of people, do you scope out and know who you’re going to connect with? How do you approach it?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:25)

Do I think, and to be honest, as I get older, big groups of people and big conferences and big events is not necessarily my thing. I much prefer going to a dinner with 10 people or those smaller groups where you really can connect. But for me, I think it’s never about networking. It’s more about the connection. And I’m drawn to people who are authentic, who are curious, as I said before, and who aren’t very performative. So a lot of it, and I know it sounds crazy, but it does come down.

 

to gut instinct or that red flag as you were talking about. I’ve always been very good at reading people and I can read someone within five minutes which might not be very fair but I really can read them instantly and can usually tell if someone’s energy values and just feeling aligns with mine and I think it comes down to like if that conversation feels real and curious I will lean into it but if it’s very one-sided and all about their wins and all about what they’ve achieved.

 

or if they’re distracted looking over my shoulder at who else is in the room, I know that they’re probably not my vibe and I tend to stay away from people like that. And I think I’ve also, I’ve just got no time for small talk. I don’t wanna talk about where you’re going on holidays, your kids, the weather, anything like that. I wanna have real honest conversations about ideas and what drives people. So I think you can really make up your mind within a few minutes ⁓ what someone’s

 

going to be like and you you get that my god we’re very similar or you know this is not a conversation that’s going to be a deep thoughtful instance.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:04)

Yeah, you’ve kind of described how my philosophy on life, mean, going to an opening of an event is I would rather stab myself in the eye with a pen. I think that term networking is almost a dirty word. You talked about collaborating and finding connection, much more appealing.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (16:26)

Exactly, collaboration is where it’s all at I think. And to give you an example, I recently did a retreat with 25 women in the Gold Coast which was incredible. Lisa Ailes was the host, she’s incredible. And they all came away, all these women said they’ve made lifelong friends. There are people they never thought they’d meet but they actually didn’t still at the end of the retreat knew what those other people did for a living. Because I think, you know, that whole what do you do, where are you from, where did you go to school, it’s all from the past.

 

a real conversation with someone about the fact that, I don’t know, you’ve got a deaf person in your family and they’ve got a deaf person in their family and you bond over something really real and you don’t actually know what they do but you know you want to be part of their world. So I found that really interesting that women can come away these days and not know if they’re a lawyer or a doctor or a librarian. It really doesn’t matter anymore because it’s all about if you connect with them or not.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:21)

Yeah, I agree. So back to entrepreneurship, when you’re trying to scale, what’s the biggest mistake you see people make when they approach a potential brand or a business partnership?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (17:36)

Right. Look, I think for a lot of people, they still see it as the one size fits all model. So they’ll put together a beautiful shiny deck and it might look beautiful and it might have amazing information in it. But when you send that out to 10, 20, 50 different brands, you DM people on LinkedIn, track people down, it’s not going to work because I think true partnerships, they don’t work like that. It’s really about understanding what that specific

 

brand, all that specific individual, what their challenges are, what they care about and how you can help them achieve their goals. They’re kind of the three things that I always look at because it’s different for even like Apple to Samsung, it’s different from McDonald’s to Hungry Jacks. Even though you go, well, I’m going out to all these fast food because I want a fast food partner, it’s individual for every single one you do. And I think I touched on this before, but for my first eight years, was in hospitality.

 

And honestly, I think the world would be a better place if every 20 something year old spent some time in hospitality because it really teaches you what it means ⁓ to see people, understand people, how to have genuine conversations. mean, I was 19 or 20 and I was working at, you know, the Shangri-La in the city. And at that age, to be able to notice how people feel when you make them feel a certain way, it’s really affected the way I, yeah, the way I work in the

 

in anything I do in any specific business. And one of my all time favourite books, which I’m not sure if you’ve read, is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Garagno. my god, it’s like I’ve probably read it six times and I sometimes read it or listen to it in the car. But basically I recommend anyone read it no matter what industry you’re in. It’s a brilliant reminder that… ⁓

 

Yeah, you can make people feel truly cared for in this magic in the tiny things that happen. I think that that’s where people go wrong. It doesn’t have to be expensive. It can be the smallest tiny thing. And his book’s brilliant. He talks about one of the biggest things he did one day for people at his restaurant in New York, which ended up being the top restaurant in the world, but was go out and buy a hot dog for them from a local hot dog vendor because he overheard them say they’re about to leave New York and they didn’t get a chance to have

 

hot dog. So it was like a six dollar, you know, thing that he did, but he took it to the kitchen. It was cut into four incredible pieces. It was plated up. And because he overheard this conversation, it’s those tiny things that I’m always trying to do in life to, whether it’s my clients, my people that come on retreat or anything, I just try and surprise and delight them with tiny things that will make a difference. And I can guarantee you if there’s a partnership to be had, that’s the way to do it versus, you know, blitzing 200 companies with the same doc.

 

moment.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:31)

I couldn’t agree more, And in my own experience coming out of the executive search world, I knew only too well that if I had approached somebody, my approach was going to unearth their sort of status quo at the time. these conversations used to go on for months and months and months. But I always emailed on a Friday afternoon, even when I had nothing to tell them, simply to say, no update, because

 

what it felt a short period of time for me, it felt like an eternity for them being on the hook. So it is those little things of caring about how people feel and putting yourself in their shoes that I think is so, so important.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:16)

And what that would have felt to that person on a Friday afternoon, it meant that they probably never went to any other executive search person because they’re

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (21:24)

Well, it’s

 

exactly that. It’s how I won business. you’re absolutely right. So you’ve painted a pretty honest picture of juggling work and you’re part of the sandwich generation like I am. So you’ve got everybody at each end of the spectrum. What does burnout and working under pressure look like when you’re actually at the center of it?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:54)

Yeah, that’s very interesting and very real still for me. I still work on that a lot. But I think burnout for me, it’s not necessarily lying on the floor unable to move. It’s more of a subtle and sneaky thing that it catches up with you. So it’s doing everything for everyone, as we just said, and feeling like I’m failing at all of it, to be honest. Because when you’re stretched so thin and you’ve got the kids and you’ve got parents, and let’s not forget, there’s a husband or a partner or someone, there’s clients.

 

and says all this stuff going on, ⁓ I’ve got businesses, I’m sitting on boards, I’m whatever, and there’s nowhere to turn. And I think ⁓ for me, it’s trying to even remember what self-care feels like because every second of every day, I’m up doing something for someone else. ⁓ I’ve had, full honesty, I’ve had two proper full burnouts, nervous breakdowns in the last 20 years where I literally couldn’t get out of bed. And so I think I’m hyper aware of the signs.

 

⁓ You know that happened with that it can be tears over losing your charger for your computer It can be sitting in the car for two hours before school pickup answering emails. Whereas really I should be going for a walk ⁓ You know, it’s canceling my yin yoga, which I adore which I did cancel this morning because I knew we were doing this but you know, but doing those things, know, they kind of all just come up on you and you know, sometimes it’s even like realizing you’re lying down for a pat smear and that feels great because it’s

 

first time I’ve actually lied down all day. and so even though that’s quite funny it’s also quite funny.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:29)

It’s so good.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:32)

Yeah, you know, like you go, my God, I’m really looking forward to this, because it means I’ll just stop for five minutes. I’m like, that is not a healthy way to live my life. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:40)

It’s not.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:41)

So

 

yeah, and look, and there’s no way of getting out of the sandwich generation. Like you can’t just throw it all in and run away. But it’s about learning how to manage all those pieces. So I think for me, I’ve learned through the two breakdowns, which actually take months to come back from. So if I don’t go to that place again, it’s actually much better to stop before I get there. So it’s obviously not being everything to everyone. Like sometimes I say to kids, it’s 7pm, I’m not going to cook, I’m actually going to bed to work.

 

Netflix I’ll see you all in the morning and I try and not have guilt about that because I know that I can’t possibly do that tonight. That’s just what I need and I think they’re fine with that. I cancel on things now which I never used to. Sometimes I have tickets to certain things and on the day I’ll say to a good friend you know I just I can’t I’m exhausted what I really need to do is go to bed and I’m okay.

 

with doing those things where I think for years when I was younger, I wasn’t okay with doing those. I pushed myself to go to that big event or that opening or, cause you know, what if I met someone that was gonna change my life now? I’m a bit like, I’m exhausted so I don’t have to do that. you know, having systems as well that save your sanity is good. And for me, it’s a small moment. So I’m never gonna get, you know, the big week away by myself to just ponder my own thoughts, but I will be able to have a laugh with the family.

 

I mean half the time they’re laughing at me to be honest, which you know either can make me laugh or cry Depending on my frame of mind, but yeah, it’s a dip in the ocean. It’s a one-hour Yin class It’s all those things I try and go in the ocean every single day now after I go to gym and I used to be like, oh, that’s a bit You know, I feel a bit guilty about doing that. Screw it, you know, go to gym go for a dip in the ocean I’m at my computer by 930 in the morning. So I think Yeah, it’s it’s really tricky to put those things into your life. But otherwise we

 

just burn ourselves into the ground. Our parents’ generation didn’t have laptops and mobiles and all this stuff where we were on 24-7, but I have the ability to wake up at 5 and start working and work till midnight. So it’s up to me to…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:47)

Not those things.

 

I mean, it is a good point. I I grew up with a father who was on the land and the hours that they’d work, particularly during harvest, were ridiculous. And I probably learned to work to burn out by observing. And you potentially did too with a father that was going hard. And sometimes that’s just baked into our DNA, I think. And it’s to unlearn it.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:16)

It’s really hard to unlearn it. And I think for years, our generation has also been saying, oh, the younger millennials, they don’t know how to work. They, you know, they come in late, they leave early. I’ve actually changed the way I think about them and think, actually, we could learn from them. They’re out at run clubs. They’re leaving early to go to yoga or whatever. And I think like good on them. Whereas, you know, 10 years ago, I was like, oh, you hire people and they leave the office at 6pm. But like, good on them. We should have done that for 20 years.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:44)

And you know, when I find myself thinking that, I do sometimes wonder whether we’re admiring them or we’re actually jealous of them because they’ve actually taken the decision that we haven’t done.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:58)

Absolutely, and we’re paying the price for that now. I would have loved to all those years have gone and left and gone to out with a friend rather than being like, can’t, I’m gonna work late tonight. Like I was the one forcing myself to work late. No one else was doing that. But I think that it’s great. They have much more of a balance than we do. Maybe they won’t have as many mental health problems in their 40s, 50s and 60s that we do.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:19)

Yeah.

 

So do you have, do you have the ability now to realise when you’re getting too wrapped up in, your business?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (27:31)

To be honest, it’s something I’m working on. found a really, really good, she’s almost like a life coach, work coach slash psychologist. So she’s very good at actually, cause I came to her and said, after my last breakdown, which was only last year, I said, I feel like I don’t have that internal, other people are able to stop when they want to stop. I will take on more and more and more work until I have a breakdown because I’m just a yes person. So she’s helping me put systems in process.

 

in place and like at the moment we’re working on the fact that 2026 is full. Mandi you have to say no and you say to people from now on I can work with you in 2027 which doesn’t come easily to me but it’s just I think it’s going to be for the best so it’s I don’t feel like I’ve got that internal monologue but I’m working on it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:21)

But there’s a great message. You’ve recognized that you don’t, but it’s smart to put somebody around you who can manage that. So that’s a bit like six eyes and we’ve all.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:34)

Yeah, absolutely. And she’s in charge of that. Yeah, definitely. Like I said to her the other day, like I’ve kind of had two or three retreats a year, then six a year, and next year I’ve got 10. And so we’ve gone through and worked out that like 10 is actually the maximum amount.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:50)

It’s

 

like doing ten weddings, Mandi. That’s a lot.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:52)

I

 

know, I know, each retreat takes like 350 to 400 hours. So, and I don’t do that, don’t sit down and work it out. So really what I’m going to need is staff at this point to help me do this. But I didn’t realise that she’s the one that looked at the hours, looked at the week and went, do you want to work 130 hours a week? I’m like, no, she’s like, well, that’s what you’ve just set yourself up for. So yeah, it’s about finding people that want to help. Because I don’t, I just say, oh my God, that sounds so exciting.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:20)

There’s your mirror. Yes.

 

Well, I’m here talking with Mandi Gunsberger, who is a visionary entrepreneur and as you’ve already gathered, a workaholic. But coming up, we’re going to explore the power of being vulnerable. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. So you’ve been pretty candid in our discussion today. ⁓

 

about burnout and your last one as you said was only in the last 12 months ago. What did you do after selling Babyology?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:00)

⁓ that’s a big question. ⁓ yeah, after selling Babyology, I, well, I thought I’d planned, carefully planned at my exit, to be honest, but, and I’d negotiated exactly how many hours I would consult to the new owners as a maximum. ⁓ But the day the deal was done, they literally said, we’ve got it from here. So that was a massive blow to me, which was, you know, for the best in the long term. But I still remember walking out of the office that day.

 

feeling like Jerry Maguire.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:32)

Yeah.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:33)

I packed a box, I had a tin of tuna and a notebook. That was pretty much all I had in my own company. ⁓ And you know, and I even had to ask them, like, I wanted to take my staff for lunch. And it just all felt so surreal. But we’d always been so big on setting up a Wiki that we’d had like this 400 page Wiki, which now everyone has with their business, but it was the Bible of the business that they were basically like, we’ve got it from here. We don’t need to anymore. So that was really ⁓ odd, I think. And that was very surreal after 11 years of building a business.

 

you

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:03)

Sum

 

up in two words what that feeling was. What are those two words?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (31:09)

those two words would just be ⁓ devastated, surprised. I just, took me a few weeks to be like, for one minute we’re signing papers and we’ve just done this big deal and now I’m no longer in the office. Cause I think also in media it was unheard of. Like I basically sold at that time thinking someone would buy us for two or three years and then we’d be able to live our lives. And all of a sudden we were leading our lives and didn’t know what to do with them. Cause my husband was in the business then as well.

 

and we were both all of a sudden like unemployed. ⁓ So that was okay. But then, so I think I was like, I’m going to help other founders. So, you know, I went and consulted with other founders, still very fresh out of my business. But honestly, ⁓ it just didn’t light me up at that point in my life. I found it really hard when I couldn’t make things happen. Yeah. And you’d go and you meet with someone who suggest all this stuff. And a month later, none of it had been done. So I was actually quite, I think I was

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:57)

and weren’t ready to see.

 

Well

 

that’s the thing about consulting. I think consulting is really hollow because you come up with all of the big picture stuff but it’s not your task to do the implementation. I find that for a doer, and I’ve seen that in the search world, I would never advise somebody with your demeanor to go into the consulting world because it would be unfulfilling.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (32:22)

That’s me.

 

Exactly. Well, I know that now, but I did not know that. So, I found it like really frustrating. So really what I did then was I threw myself into planning a massive bucket list adventure to Tuscany with my family. So we moved our three girls over to Tuscany for a year. Husband wasn’t very keen to go. He was literally like, you need a job. You need something to entertain you. But I’m like, we are going to Tuscany. So, yes, so we had the most incredible life changing year where we went to

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:37)

Not much.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:05)

over 20 different countries that year. My girls were five, 11 and 12. So really interesting time to pull them out of their worlds. know, lots of family time, no running around, no meetings, no agendas. You know, we did some consulting over there in the early hours, but really we just got to hang out and enjoy. And that was 2019. So we were really lucky. We didn’t even know COVID was around the corner.

 

So we did that whole year there, bought them back to go to school in that February when everyone was like, my God, you’re from Italy, you’ve got COVID.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:36)

Four weeks before.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:39)

before

 

it all happened exactly. So it was kind of crazy. And then I think came the harder years, that whole post COVID-y time. ⁓ You know, for the first time in 20 years, I think I decided I’d go get a real job. And you know, I hadn’t worked for anyone else for years, but I just thought, you know, the stability, was that whole grass is greener on the other side, stability of the paycheck, someone else being in charge, me just, you know, rocking up and starting.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:05)

in my book.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:06)

Yes, I got fired three times, not once, but three times.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:11)

How

 

did that go? Not so well.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:14)

Not so well. just couldn’t stay in my box. I would go in and try and make too much change, you know, and other founders or other people in organizations that

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:23)

Were

 

you surprised to be fired, Merdie? ⁓

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:27)

I surprised the first and second time, the third time I kind of expected it and then you know realised as many of us are we’re just unemployable like no one wants someone who’s been doing their own

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:39)

And that’s a badge of honor, there’s nothing wrong with that, that is a badge of honor.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:42)

No, exactly.

 

But I just thought it’d be nice for a while, like to be, you know, someone pays you to sick leave and for like holiday leave. Well, just nice to be able to say to the kids, don’t worry, I’ve got this rather than we really don’t know what’s going to happen this time next week or next year. ⁓ But yeah, I think that silver lining of that period in that chapter reminded me to my core that I am a founder, that I do like to create things that I’m, you know, that

 

that’s really what I’m built for. So, you know, I use everything I’ve learned and I’ve, you know, gone again, cause I was like, I think I could do another one. ⁓ it’s not all bad, but it was like very much, you know, after six, I’d always get to that six month period and then they’d call me in and be like, yeah, this is not working out. So I’m like, okay, great. Yeah. Sometimes it was like, like I was completely unaware. And then other times I’m like,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:18)

Thank you guys.

 

for over performing and not under performing. Who would have thought?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (35:41)

Yeah, but was overperforming but it was also just like I think this is what we should do and this is how we should do it and we’re not you know we’ve only got this percentage of this and I think other people don’t want to hear that they’re happy to go at their slower pace ⁓ and not have someone else tell them what to do so I know that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:59)

Good

 

to know. So you’ve said from the deepest resets, sometimes it doesn’t come from doing more, but it actually does come from doing less, a bit like your year in Tuscany. Why do you actually think that is such a hard message for overachievers, such as yourself, to actually absorb?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (36:22)

Yeah, and you died, sounds like you’re one of, you’re the same as me, so. But I think, to be honest, for… ⁓

 

For most of us high achievers, our entire identity has been built around doing things and ticking things off and getting things done. Like that’s the way I’ve lived since I was a teenager. So I’ve been rewarded my whole life for being productive, for being reliable, for being capable. You know, I’m the one that gets things done. I’m the one that organizes the family get togethers, the Christmas, you know, who’s bringing what. So when you suddenly stop or slow down and say, I don’t want to host that,

 

it does feel or it can feel like a failure. ⁓ So yes, I struggle with that. And I think, ⁓ yeah, I’m probably not the only person out there who writes something on my to-do list after I’ve done it, just so I have the glee in crossing it off and feeling like I’ve achieved it. No, see, we all do it. I’m like done that, putting that on my list, crossing it off, exactly.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:16)

That was just me!

 

have a day list with colour coded tabs that vary in colour based on urgency, Mandi.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (37:32)

Yeah, no see we need help we need help and it’s not easy for people like us then to slow down to sit and read a book You know, I’ll sit and read a book But then I’ve got my laptop open and I’m over here going what emails have I got because that’s what makes me feel good is doing those things So for me it did take the complete burnouts, which I hope you know other people listening Do not have to go through to realize that you know it rest is not a weakness for me It always felt like a weakness I had to keep going but it actually is more wisdom

 

than anything. I said, looking at the younger generation and them taking time out, I wish that I would have done that earlier or given myself permission to pause or to breathe or to go to yoga or to read a book, you know. But it’s really uncomfortable for people like myself or yourself that spent decades proving their worth through how many things I can achieve on a list every day. So it is, it’s learning a new language and it’s, you know, a language of stillness and not having to be busy, like, you know, going through…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:31)

Do

 

you think your kids are learning? Do you think you’re producing another generation of you? Or do you think they’re a little bit more informed?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (38:40)

I think to be honest, and they’re now 13, 18 and 19. No, I think they’ve seen me. They’ve been through my breakdowns. They’ve been through my last previous three months where from last, I don’t know, September till December, I really couldn’t get out of bed because I was so burnt out. You you rebuild yourself by doing one activity a day. Today, I’m going to have a shower. Today, like really severe burns.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:03)

You’ve

 

really done it, haven’t you?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:05)

I

 

just hit the bottom so quickly because I never know when to stop. So I think the girls have seen that and it actually has taught them a lesson.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:14)

we’re

 

not going to do that, we’re not going to

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:17)

You’re crazy.

 

Why do you like, you now when I’m like, I’ve got these 10 retreats, they’re all like, you’re a bloody idiot, mum. Like, you know that you’re gonna fall under all that weight. And I’m like, no, no, I’m gonna get help. I’m gonna hire people because I don’t wanna be there again. And I’m not good at saying no. So I’ve got this other person over here who is my no person, my kind of advisor. And then my kids and my family that say, do you really wanna go there again? So I do think the girls, even the little one at 13, you know, has seen me.

 

in and goes are you driving me to school? No, looks like you’re staying in bed again today. So you know I don’t think that’s necessarily a negative thing for them to learn at this age. I think that’s what life is you know you work too hard and you burn out and you fall in a heat.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:56)

No, no, no. ⁓

 

Yeah, and I know in my own role models in life, I learned as much from the negative things as I did from the positive. And I mean, that should be our learning journey in life in general that we acquire it from all of those experiences. So tell me about your business. You’re now focusing on other people’s wellness, I suspect, in these retreats. The irony of that,

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (40:20)

Yeah.

 

Exactly. that’s the thing. What does it look like if the owner and founder of a wellness business who talks about giving yourself a rest has a nervous breakdown? It’s not a good look. so ⁓ yes, so I definitely try to practice what I preach and take that pause and take that breath. But yeah, absolutely. Nourish Travel was born out of my own ⁓ healing journey. ⁓ You know, I hit that wall after I sold Babyology and I spent so many years in that constant juggling the business, juggling the kids, juggling parents.

 

I mean, ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:24)

how they live their life.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:25)

And quite often, it’s incredible. So I got there and I was like, you know, 10, 12, 2, and I’d be late for everything because quite often that 10 o’clock meeting is them saying, let’s have a coffee. Let’s get to know each other.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:38)

I

 

why in the rag trade we always used to know that fabric deliveries would always be late from Italy because they ran on their own time and that is what

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:48)

own schedule and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. They’re calmer, they’re happier, love life, they have their CS star. So you know I haven’t brought a lot of that back in but the one meeting a day thing really got me because that meeting is often a coffee then a walk then a nice lunch and you you spend three or four or five hours with one person and then you decide whether you’re going to work with them. So talk about partnerships and really understanding what someone wants. That’s an incredible thing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:15)

There’s a lot

 

to learn. there’s ⁓

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (42:17)

Whereas

 

we think having eight meetings a day is really the way to do it. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And you you get on a call and you’re like, right, where are we? Have we signed a contract? What are we doing? That’s not necessarily the way other people work around the world. So, ⁓ yeah, I think during that time, I started to do things that helped me feel more human and come out of that real adrenal fatigue I was in. was, you know, having honest conversations with many other women as well, all through COVID, you know, just about that they’re all carrying

 

all these things. So I think that’s how NARS travel really began was to be able to create a space to offer other women and men. We have a lot of men that come on our retreats as well. Just permission to slow down. So I do things that are one day. I do things that are three days. I do them locally. I do them internationally in Tuscany or Botswana or wherever, you know, hosts want to go. But it’s all about, even if it’s just the one day one, giving you that space to just look out for yourself. If you want to spend that day sitting

 

reading a book and not talking to anyone, do it. Like I don’t force anyone, it’s not a retreat where I’ll gong your room and say, you know, it’s time for the morning sunset walk. If someone, you know, I had a woman recently that came up, that came to one and she had a one, a four and a five year old.

 

had never been away from them and her husband gifted it to her. She just wanted to sleep and I was like, I’m just gonna come check on you and make sure that you’ve eaten, but otherwise you don’t need to be at anything. And like, so for everyone, it actually means something different. It’s some people it’s connecting with others, some people it’s doing nothing and some people it’s filling that schedule with, you know, one thing after the other. But you know, everyone is about to have that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:57)

Mind you, that’s harder on the organiser because you haven’t got a set agenda.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (44:03)

It is and what I do is I have a set agenda. Actually today I’ve just sent out for my next one. These are the five or six things we’re thinking of doing in the afternoon. We’re not doing all of them. Let us know which ones you would want to do the most and I will surprise you with which ones we do. But every single day of every moment I say nothing is compulsory. If you don’t want to come to anything you don’t have to. But women have and a lot of men as well have FOMOs. So the minute you actually put something on a schedule they

 

God this going to the beekeeping might be the best thing ever. What if I don’t go to that? then what if I don’t go to this? So I actually do allow space where nothing is on for those people that feel FOMO because they can’t help themselves come to everything and then at the end of it they say I really wish there was some downtime because I didn’t give myself any. So it is harder for me as an organizer but I think I’m getting to the point where I understand the way people’s rhythms work and giving them that two to four or two to five afternoon gap will allow them to

 

a nap or a swim or do yoga or read a book or whatever. But yeah if I schedule something super fun they’ll be there so we try and it’s like toddlers you have to give them their afternoon break.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:14)

So Mandi, I’d love you to speak directly to the female entrepreneur or business person listening to the podcast today. If you were to pay forward all the amassed knowledge and wisdom that you’ve learned over time and could speak to the version of yourself who was running on empty, what would you tell her?

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (45:39)

The first thing I tell her is to stop trying to do it all.

 

It’s actually impossible and I don’t know anyone who can do it all and not have massive mental health issues by doing that. So I think what I’ve learnt is I don’t need to earn rest or love or success by doing more. ⁓ You know, you’ve got to believe, which, you know, I’ve just turned 50 and it’s taken me this many years, but you’ve got to believe that you are enough even when you pause and especially when you pause. So taking that pause doesn’t mean you’re not succeeding.

 

and that you’re failing, it means that you actually care about yourself, about the others around you, about your family, about your business, whatever you’re doing, because it will give you more to be able to do things. know, it’s that the world’s not going to fall apart if you take that breath. And asking for help is not a weakness, it’s actually a strength to say like, not coping, can’t do it all, don’t know how to stop doing it all, which is where I’m always at. Like I actually can’t stop myself, so I need other people to

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:42)

You

 

need an outsourced

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (46:45)

you

 

Exactly, and that’s fine. I think that’s fine. I know that about myself after all these years that I’m my own worst enemy and I’ll take on too much till I fall. So I think that would be the biggest thing. ⁓ You know, and that’s why I absolutely love doing what I do now because I get these women that come to me. I build a relationship with men and women for the six months prior to a retreat about what they want, what it looks like, why they’re coming. You know, it’s not just those three days and then I tailor it to them so that they get the rest

 

and that individual thing that they need. As I was saying, a retreat is not a one size fits all, get 25 people. I actually understand each person and why they’ve come and how I can make it special for them. So I love it. It’s like all the things I’ve ever done put into one now.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:32)

how wonderful. Well, Mandi, thank you so much for sharing your entrepreneurial knowledge and also being so candid about being ⁓ so focused and so committed to pushing yourself to the brink. I think for many listeners, and I know interviewing you here today, it is a bit like somebody holding up the mirror and you’re going, okay.

 

Alrighty, I need to read the signs. need to listen. And as you said so rightly just before, the wheels are not going to fall off if you take an extra hour to go to yoga class or you do something. And next time, ring me and say, I need to reschedule because I’ve got too much on my plate. No, don’t worry.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:21)

going

 

to yoga tonight. I’m going to yoga at 6pm. But no thanks for having me. It’s been so lovely to have a chat with you. Yeah, love what you do and I really hope that people get something out of this. I did warn you I was very honest. So I have been very honest.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:38)

That’s what we want. And Mandi, what’s the name of the business? I’m going to put it in the show notes, but give me the name of the business for the retreat. It’s nourishtravel.com. Nourishtravel.com. That’s it. Nourishtravel.com. Fantastic. And I know Mandi shows up on LinkedIn. And if you’re interested to learn more about what I do outside of the podcast, I too show up quite a bit on LinkedIn and I’ve got a power of reinvention newsletter.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:47)

www.nourishtravel.com

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:07)

that I post weekly there and like Mandi, I’m in midlife and we’re doing lots of things and we’re not stopping.

 

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (49:16)

Exactly,

 

it’s our time. children… So it’s our time. Thank very for having me, Di.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:18)

Thanks Mandi. Until next time.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Mandi Gunsberger at:

Website https://nourishtravel.com/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/nourishtravel/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandigunsberger/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

From Setback To Comeback

From Setback To Comeback

by | Nov 10, 2025 | Burnout, Female Empowerment, Mindfulness, Podcast For Women

What happens when the drive that makes you great becomes the force that brings you undone?

Life coach, bestselling author and keynote speaker Shannah Kennedy joins me, Di Gillett on the Power Of Women Podcast to explore the thin line between ambition and burnout, and why recovery, identity and self-awareness are now critical skills for high-performing women.

From managing elite athletes to living at full throttle, Shannah’s story is a reminder that setbacks can be the start of your greatest comeback. If you’re willing to do the inner work.

 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

➜ Why “Who are you without your job?” is the most confronting (and necessary) question you can ask.

➜ How to rebuild your identity beyond titles and achievements.

➜ The difference between ambition and overachievement.

➜ Why women in midlife face “the perfect storm” — and how to plan your way through it.

➜ Daily rituals for resilience: mindfulness, breathwork and boundaries.

 

Shannah said:

“Setbacks are inevitable.”

“The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body.”

“Treat yourself like a high-performing human because that’s what you are.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:02)

Well the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – Host (00:09)

We’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:29)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curve ball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

 

we go into, you know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or move forward with your health. We need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world.

 

The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body. The question is never why me, but more who will I become because of this? A really important question to be asking ourselves in change. Women in midlife are facing the perfect storm. Without a plan, it can break you, and with a plan, it can make you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (01:57)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome back to the POWER OF WOMEN podcast. What I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And we talk resilience, reinvention and the moments that don’t make the headlines but in fact should.

 

So the conversation today is a really important one and I know this is going to resonate with so many of you listening because today we’re going to explore how to turn setbacks into comebacks. And joining me to discuss this and how we approach it is one of Australia’s most respected life coaches, a bestselling author, and we’ve got a couple of the books on the table with us today, keynote speaker,

 

and mentor to athletes, CEOs and high performers. Shannah Kennedy, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (02:57)

Thank you for having me. It’s beautiful to be here.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (03:00)

Shannah, before we start, I’d like to get into a little bit of your origin story because I think you’ve had your own setback that really framed what your comeback would be. Could we start there? Because you had a high-flying career as a sports manager and somewhere along the line you hit the wall. What happened?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (03:24)

I certainly did. I don’t know if any of the listeners out there have married their job before, but that’s what I did. ⁓ I was in my 20s. I had the most incredible job. was the full Jerry Maguire job. You know, there was athletes. I was working for a wonderful brand. My job was to buy and sell the athletes, to do all the sponsorship deals.

 

Sport is always on the weekend, so great. Every weekend was full, flying around watching sporting events, but never took any time off. So basically, full-time marriage into the job, loved it. Had a lot of friends because I had lot of free passes to places. I had a lot of free things to give away and a lot of money to give away. So my life was really superficial.

 

although I didn’t see that at the time, it was just full excitement. Sort of like if you are an elite athlete, things aren’t quite normal. And anyway, I just did not see the warning signs. I did not want to see the warning signs. So, you know, when your body starts to talk to you and you get the headache, you get the sore bones, you’ve got to force yourself to go to work a little bit.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (04:38)

Explain it away though, that’s the trouble.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (04:41)

Yeah,

 

you do. You create great stories to support yourself and your sabotaging lifestyle. I was also trying to do triathlons myself. I was trying to have relationships and everything was just crumbling around me until one day I just couldn’t get up. I actually could not get through the concrete. And I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue and that was 30 years ago.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (05:08)

Yeah, and we don’t talk about that a lot, but it was something that so many people hit through HSC studies and those sorts of things. So how long did that…

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:21)

That

 

was full adrenal burnout. That was a year in bed, a year. A year in bed. Not able to drive, can’t concentrate, can’t turn the lights on, it hurts my eyes. Couldn’t turn the radio on or the TV on because it would hurt my ears. Everything was just fried. Think of everything being fried. Then the huge realisation was, who am I without my job? There was no emails. There was no phone calls.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (05:26)

Yeah

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:49)

There was nothing. There was silence. The company were great. They held my job. But it was a horrible realization that I actually hadn’t created a person who went to work. I just created my title. So I was actually lying there thinking of our elite athletes and what happens to them when they go from hero to zero, sometimes overnight, you know, when they do their ACL or they get dropped from the team or.

 

Who is Dusty Martin without Richmond Football Club?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (06:20)

Nobody

 

seems to care about the person, they care about what impact it has on them as a fan.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (06:26)

Exactly. But we need to be a person first who plays football for that team or goes to that job and then gets off that ride and is still a full person. So it was a real gift in the end because I actually in that time really thought about all of the athletes that I had worked with. I saw all of the destruction post sport, which nobody cared about back then because it was the early 2000s.

 

Well-being wasn’t a word, mental health was not a word. It was go hard or go home. So I actually got myself a coach ⁓ to coach me back to unlearn all of my bad habits, to unlearn the I need to use hard work as a badge of honour and relearn a much more sustainable way.

 

of being a high performer without the burnout and having a life as well. So it’s a very exciting time, even though very challenging, incredibly painful chronic fatigue. Your bones are like broken. It feels like you have had the biggest night on the town.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:27)

What does it feel like?

 

without the fun.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:34)

without any fun. It’s like the worst hangover but also your bones feel like they’ve been punched so it feels bruised so it’s extremely painful. I don’t think people talk about that very much. It’s not just I’m a bit tired, So that ended up in a big depression because I actually didn’t know who I was.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:49)

No, it’s more than that.

 

You lost your identity.

 

Ouch.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:59)

Yeah, at 30. At 30. That’s early. That’s early to have a crisis like that.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

Indeed it

 

  1. And that overachievement junkie pursuit which you would have had, and you would have been surrounded by people with that because they were high performers and killer instincts and strive to win and wins the only thing. And you would have had it in your DNA because you were competitive sporting wise in your own right.

 

So how much of it was about being an overachievement junkie and how often do you see that in the people that you coach now?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (08:42)

Well, I still see it in myself. I think it is. And I think if you are a driven woman and you have that achievement, you know, I’m not happy unless I’m achieving sort of mentality, it doesn’t go away, but you can make a healthier version of it.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:00)

That was going to be my question because what makes you great is what brings you undone. So how do you balance that?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:06)

There’s

 

a balancing act. So now my achievement is not, did I sell 10,000 books yesterday? Although that’s very nice. It is, what did you do to care for the asset which is yourself? So that she doesn’t burn out, so that she does have balance. Did you set a boundary? Did you do your breath work? Did you do the three M’s to start your day, which is make my bed, move my body, mindfully breathe? Do the pacing stuff.

 

Did I do three breaths every time I wash my hands today? That paces me through the day so I don’t burn.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:43)

You’re that, you’re doing that every day. And I did that before we started recording this morning. So I did the three, four, five breathing just to centre.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:45)

Yeah,

 

center. So that’s athlete mentality. I mean we watch it all the time. We’ve just watched the grand final. We see people breathing. We see Olympians just preparing themselves with breath. Breath is your first skill to go and really master. So I see it as the Gatorade stations in the marathon of the day. So every time you do that conscious breathing you ⁓ just give yourself a moment to ground yourself.

 

That’s like stopping at the Gatorade station before you carry on for the next 5k’s of the day. I teach a lot of my clients, especially women, how to pace themselves because they are trying to do everything all at the same time.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:40)

And particularly midlife women because that sandwich generation piece of you’re managing all ends of the spectrum. Yes. Coming up behind you, those who’ve gone before you.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (10:51)

Yes, and we’re in a crisis at the moment because women have never been in this position before. We’re actually at the top of our careers in our mid-50s. We’ve really got to partner. We’ve developed incredible businesses. Unfortunately, we had kids later, so our kids are still at home. They haven’t gone. And our parents are still with us because they’re living longer. And at the same time, our body is changing.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:12)

Incinerate

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:19)

It’s a perfect storm and it hasn’t been there in any other generation. Because the generations before, the grandparents didn’t live as long. The kids moved out at 20. Now they’re staying home. ⁓ And by the time you’re in menopause, your career was sort of finished. So we’re in really uncharted waters. Yeah, it’s an interesting But I think it’s exciting.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:41)

So with that in mind, are the majority of your female clients midlife women?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:49)

No, I have women, men, I have retiring men, retiring women in their 60s, 70s. I have young people in their 20s starting. And everyone wants a plan.

 

They haven’t got a plan. So if you haven’t got a plan, it’s like driving around the roundabout. When you have a plan, it’s like, we know which direction we’re driving on the GPS. So even if it’s a short-term plan, the brain is really comfortable as soon as it knows where it’s going. So we do need a plan, which we plan in pencil, because there’s always change. We need to get comfortable with change. ⁓ And when you do have that plan in pencil, you can enjoy the ride.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (12:31)

That point about pencil is a fascinating one because I still keep a day book as a running sheet of what I’ve got to do. ⁓ And I love writing. I have a creative style of writing that comes from my fashion design background and I physically like writing. And for years I always used a beautiful Lamy pencil because I could

 

change it and it’s only in recent years that I’ve actually moved into writing with a rollable pen and I wonder whether there’s a conscious switch in going from pencil can change it to feeling clear enough that I’m going to put it down in pen and stick with it.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (13:18)

think pen is amazing. I think pencil is for long term. So if we’re thinking about your 10 year older version of yourself, which is your role model, of course, is you, your best friend in 10 years time. You put that age to it, so I’m 55, so I’d be 65. So I would be planning in pencil because I don’t know what curve ball is coming my way. But I’m planning in pencil on, you know, what are the life experiences that I want.

 

What experiences do I want with my husband, with my kids, with my friends, all different ones? I might be planning in how I want to feel. More agile, stronger. Okay, what can I do today? Where do I want to be financially so I know what I need to do today and why I’m not going to go to the sale and buy some more towels because we’ve got enough towels just because I really like them or more stationary because I love stationary. I’m serving her.

 

I am serving her, I’m working for her, that’s my life plan. So I know why I make decisions today is for her because I don’t feel like going for a walk when it’s cold and windy here in Melbourne, but I’ll get up and go for her because she’s saying thank you, keep moving, keep moving or get to yoga, I want you to be agile. So I have this trainer in my brain who is to me

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:37)

speaks to you in third

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (14:40)

from my life plan because this is how I want to feel and this is what I want to experience and this is what I want to learn.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:50)

And I’m thinking what you said, and I think it was after turning 60 that I probably went from pencil to rollable pen. I wonder whether there was something in that.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:02)

Well, deep confidence comes when we know which way we’re going and how we want to feel and what we want to experience. That’s confidence. Because you’re living your plan, not somebody else’s plan.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (15:14)

I think I just got analysed on the

 

So you talked about your own setback being a gift and it was a turning point for you. So for those listening who are in the middle of a hiccup or a setback, how can they start to see the hidden opportunities in what feels like a crisis?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:45)

It always feels like a crisis. It’s like you just fell off your bike. It’s a crisis. It hurts. It’s horrible. You sit there. Your confidence is completely stripped and you’re sitting in the gutter and it’s a horrible place to be. And the first thing we need to do is breathe. The first thing you do to a child is catch your breath.

 

We’re not going to talk about it yet. We’re going to catch your breath. Ground yourself. Okay, now we’re going to slowly stand up and then we’re going to make a plan and we’re going to jump back on the bike. It’s the same. We need to go through a beautiful process and not just react. We need to ground ourselves first. We need to think about how that felt.

 

What am I learning from this? And the learning might not come till later. Certainly in the middle of chronic fatigue, I did not think it was a gift. But it opened doors for me that I would never have seen. It’s also allowed me, or I have chosen to see it as the gift to live wide awake and with intention. So mindfulness, breath work, all of those soft skills, which I did not possess before I had to bring in, and they became the guide.

 

Like taste the coffee. I’m so happy I have a bed with a doona. You know, I’ve got a car that works. Let’s go down to the little things. And so I actually feel like I’ve had a very grateful life because I’ve focused on the small things.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (17:12)

What would be the difference do you think had you not hit the wall if you’d kept going?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (17:17)

Well, it isn’t until you lose everything.

 

friends, your so-called friends, your identity, your body, that you appreciate small things. So I think if I hadn’t I would still be the A-type overachieving junkie who probably would have blown up her marriage and not felt anything and not been present for her children or maybe not pivoted the right way and just reacted all the way along like a bouncy ball and probably got to midlife ready for a massive crisis.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (17:49)

And that’s probably what we see with a lot of these relationships and characters who blow up. You know, it’s the guy going and getting the sports car. It’s the marriage breaking up at 50 when you think you should just be settling in and starting to plan post-children and enjoy yourself. It’s all of those things coming to that crux.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (18:15)

It’s

 

always the people who haven’t done any work on themselves. So they have been addicted to achievement the whole way through. They have maybe got to partner or had a great career, but everything around them.

 

is incredibly unstable. again, they put all of their eggs into their title and didn’t build the human. And that’s why we need a life plan, which brings in a career plan and a financial plan and a health plan, but it’s actually your life. How do you want it to unfold? Get in the driver’s seat and out of the passenger seat. So a lot of them, I think, have just been maybe just too one-eyed and it’s just life is not like that.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (18:57)

I think that’s right. Well coming up, what to do when setbacks hit and how to manage your comeback. If you’re loving the POWER OF WOMEN podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

Shannah, before we went to a break, you made a really interesting point. You said we put all of our energy into our title and not into us as a human. How prevalent is that in the marketplace?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (19:34)

enormous because that’s where a lot of women value themselves and their confidence. They don’t value the small things, they only value the title. And when the title is taken away, what’s left? We need to have built the human being who gets on the ride, whether that be at Macquarie Bank or

 

the business that they’ve built, it doesn’t matter what it is, but you need to be able to step off and be the human. It’s just a ride. It’s just a ride in the playground, your job.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:06)

So how do you take somebody on that journey to draw the distinction? Because if I’m an achievement junkie and my title of partner has been the pinnacle of my career, I’m there, it defines me. How do you encourage me to think of me as an individual in the bigger picture?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (20:27)

Well, the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. So that’s when they say, okay, I’m open to working on it now, because they can’t answer that one question. And it’s a really important question is to know who you are and what’s important to you outside of your job. And what are you doing to feed that consciously, consciously?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:52)

So we’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world. What’s the non-negotiables in a recovery plan to come back from one of those setbacks?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (21:20)

Well, that’s why I wrote Plan B. Because it was about navigating and embracing change. And after 20 years of coaching people through change, I thought, I’m just going to put it into a simple format for people. For what happens in your brain is we get the curve ball, it comes, it’s lemons, it hurts, it’s falling off your bike, it’s the redundancy, it’s, ⁓ you know, I had a cancer diagnosis, ⁓ my partner passed away, or my…

 

mother passed away or it just can be a range of things you know a business partner blindsided you. The first thing that we have to do is just respond and we can’t respond until we’ve taken a breath. We’ve acknowledged all of our feelings. We’ve created a narrative that works for us to tell other people when other people corner us what happened with your marriage you know.

 

You want to shut that down pretty quickly because that goes into a whole rabbit hole. So you have to have your elevator pitch ready. ⁓ And then you just respond with grace. You just respond with grace. Then you need to recover. So we need to take the time to recover. We need to think about,

 

What are the self-care things that I need to do to just refuel my tank, whether it be physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? We need to take a little time, a little gap, instead of just jumping straight back on the bike, a little gap to…

 

DI GILLETT – Host (22:48)

Achievement

 

junkies. So how do you encourage me not to go? I’m just going to get back into it and keep busy.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (22:55)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curveball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

 

So that’s where we start. And once we’ve done a bit of recovery and we’ve had a bit of time off and we’ve just settled ourselves, we go into, know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or…

 

move forward with your health, ⁓ we need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world. Yes, let’s radiate again. Let’s come, jump on the bike. Let’s take off again and have another go. But there’s quite a process to get there. And the people that don’t go through those stages,

 

⁓ always fall again and again and again.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:15)

And is that what your personal coach took you through when you hit the wall? And how long do you think the reset took?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (24:19)

Mmm, 100%.

 

I would say at least two years. And then I studied coaching to open my own business to coach athletes into retirement. That was before anyone had heard of a life coach. So think I was one of the first qualified ones in Melbourne 25 years ago. And it started with athletes, then it went into business athletes, I call them, and then life athletes.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:51)

And I get that I come from a family of elite athletes and my brother was an elite athlete and he tragically lost his wife Amy Gillett when the Australian cycling team was struck by a car in Germany. Why I tell the story in this setting is Simon was still thinking like an elite athlete in his approach of how he was going to manage his grief. And I can remember him.

 

going hard, keeping busy. He was flying here, he was flying there, he wasn’t acknowledging what had happened. And then out of the blue, he got the hiccups. And I don’t mean an occasional hiccup, I mean 24-7. You can’t eat, you can’t drink, you can’t sleep. The hiccupping was constant. And after about five days, he was broken. Absolutely.

 

broken, his body took over. So it’s, isn’t it interesting as to how if you don’t take the decision, the decision like your chronic fatigue for you.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (25:51)

His body took up.

 

Yeah, your body will take over.

 

Absolutely. And the grief cycle is huge. And it can last forever. Forever. doesn’t go away. So I put that in the book as well. we don’t get taught all of this at school. No. We don’t get taught anything at school except get a great ATAR and go to university. And that’s it. Full stop.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:24)

Do you

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (26:28)

Yes, 100%. I think they are bringing wellbeing in now, is great. It’s a small introduction. But a lot of these life skills, if you’re not a reader or I suppose now it’s much easier listening to podcasts, you can learn these skills. That was never around before. Nobody talked about all of this before. Grief was shoved under the carpet. Don’t go near that person. ⁓

 

the book was written in COVID, it came to me at two in the morning, like a Jerry Maguire moment, and I just got up and went, know the exact pathway.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:06)

And

 

so Plan B was your first… Number six. But the context.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:08)

book. No, that was number six.

 

The

 

context of it. Yeah, exactly.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:16)

Brilliant. So for a high performer listening to this podcast, what are some really practical strategies for them to prevent the next crash and to build a more sustainable comeback?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:28)

Beautiful. think especially for women who are listening to this, is, you know, we are these incredible human beings. We really are.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:41)

If

 

we don’t say so ourselves.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:43)

Yeah,

 

and I’m just going to shout that from the rooftop. We are incredible human beings and we need to protect the ascent. We need to put kid gloves around ourselves a little bit and listen to the body because the body will take over otherwise and things happen to us. So we do need to think about filling the oxygen tank before the mask. We do need to think about if I’m going to be a high performer like an athlete, I need to have high performance recovery.

 

And athletes do. They have incredible recovery protocol. We need to as well. And making that your part of your career is what is my recovery. You know, for me, it’s massage, acupuncture, Chinese herbs. It’s constant. It’s been going for 25 years with no burnout. Raising the family, looking after the parents, writing books, traveling the country, speaking on stages and coaching people.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:39)

No

 

burner.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:42)

None. My recovery is so important to me. So important. I will go and have a 20 minute sleep in the middle of the day.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:50)

because you can

 

read when you need to do it and you can respond rather than…

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:54)

You know, back-to-back presentations, for example, I will book a boardroom and go and lie down with my legs up the wall for half an hour. Yeah, there you go. treat yourself like a high-performing human because you are one. And high-performing humans and athletes really focus on recovery, just as much as performance. And that could be your rest protocol, your sleep protocol. Your exercise protocol. know, the way you move, the way you hydrate, the way you fuel your body. ⁓

 

treat it like an elite athlete because that’s what you are. You are managing so many different areas in life and everybody needs you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (29:32)

Yeah, that’s great advice. Thank you. What’s the most significant challenge women are facing today and what do we need to do about it?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (29:41)

I think there’s two. One is we’re in the crisis of ⁓ managing so many different areas of life all at the same time. Menopause, adult children, aging parents, top of our career. It’s enormous. I think it’s a huge load that women have never had before. ⁓ The other one is comparisonitis. I think social media.

 

It actually is destroying a lot of women’s confidence where they don’t feel seen, they don’t feel heard. They’re comparing themselves to someone else’s shopfront, which might not be like that behind the scenes. And it’s really affecting their confidence. And so they are feeling a little invisible maybe because they’re distracted. It’s like if you’re in a running race and you’re running perfectly well and you start looking sideways.

 

What happens to your run? You lose momentum. So every time we’re stuck in comparisonitis we’re losing momentum. And I think it’s a huge problem at the moment, especially while we’re in the whole storm of managing everything else.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (30:51)

That’s such an important word. I’ve heard it said recently and it’s relatively new to my vocab, but that is such an incredibly powerful one.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:04)

Comparisonitis

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:07)

hard to say.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:08)

Very hard to say, but think of it as an athlete. If an athlete is comparing themselves to somebody else, they’re always going to feel.

 

If they’re focused on themselves and their 10 year plan, they’re going to be excited, motivated, pumped and looking for new people to bring in to surround themselves with the right people. The minute we’re looking sideways we lose all momentum. So I think social media you have to have a boundary on.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:40)

So if I think of that as a term, I think that’s probably a term that derailed me in my 30s and didn’t really stand into my own power until in my 40s because I had a couple of powerful friends around me and I was living vicariously through them, not being true to myself. So I think that is a…

 

The existed long before social media.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (32:12)

⁓ it did, it did. And that’s why people need a plan. If you have your own vision board up and your own words up on the mirror that really work for you and you are solely committed to enjoying your life, not someone else’s, your life, how can I make today great for myself? What can I be grateful for? What’s my challenge today? Can I breathe today? Did I move my body today? Did I do all the things to serve this asset?

 

Life’s pretty exciting.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (32:43)

Yeah, brilliant. Shannah, thank you I am going to start putting more emphasis on me as the asset rather than me being the last down the line. Good idea. think that’s a must. How can somebody find you if they’re looking to engage yourself?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (33:00)

Amazing. Well, that can go to my website, shannahkennedy.com. There’s lots of free resources, free screensavers to keep you on track, free downloadable vision board kits so that you can start your own vision board. Fantastic. All on the website. yes, I do one-on-one coaching. I do workshops for corporates.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (33:13)

and a number of these books that you

 

busy and you’re not burning out. Well done, you. Fantastic. Well, I think that is such ⁓ a truckload of messages that Shannah has delivered today. But I think if we do take the approach of treat ourselves as the asset, rather than the inevitable that can keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, and we’re not breakable, because that would be wrong. are in fact likely to burn out, to

 

to exhaust ourselves, to run ourselves down, and nobody, including ourselves, are going to benefit from that. And I know I have been guilty of it. I’m sure you have been guilty of it. So share this episode with a friend to make sure we treat ourselves as the asset we deserve. Until next time.

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Website https://shannahkennedy.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannah-kennedy-8a898b1/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shannahkennedy/

 

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