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Entrepreneurial Insights: Building, Burning Out & Coming Back Stronger

by admin | Nov 17, 2025 | Exemplar, Female Entrepreneur, Female Leaders

In this fast-paced and deeply honest conversation, I sit down with Mandi Gunsberger, five-time founder and visionary dealmaker behind Babyology and Nourish Travel. We explore what it really costs to build something extraordinary: the burnout, the identity traps, the pressure of keeping it all together and the courage it takes to stop, reset, and start again.

From founding a multi-million-dollar business to selling it and rediscovering herself through a year in Tuscany, Mandi shares powerful lessons on entrepreneurship, wellbeing, and the importance of connection over hustle. A masterclass in business growth, resilience, and the power of vulnerability, when success and self collide.

➡️In this episode, we explore:

➜ The early lessons that shaped Mandi’s entrepreneurial drive

➜ The fine line between ambition and exhaustion

➜ How genuine connection beats traditional networking

➜ The reality of burnout — and how to spot the signs early

➜ What Tuscany taught her about slowing down to speed up

➜ How Nourish Travel helps others prioritise wellbeing without guilt

This is more than a business conversation. It’s a blueprint for balance, resilience and redefining success on your own terms.

Mandi said:

“You’ve got to love the build.”

“You are enough even when you pause.”

“Asking for help is a strength.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (00:00)

I’m a serial entrepreneur and I’ve built five businesses over the last 25 years. I also believe that life is not linear and our lives are all full of twists and turns to teach us who we really are and give us power in this world. I believe ⁓ integrity.

Connection and ⁓ curiosity are my main values in life, those three things. And I’m happiest, I think, when I’m creating something meaningful, surrounding myself with really good people.

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:34)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is where real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs and the moments that often don’t make the headlines but should.

So join the conversation and subscribe please wherever you listen to your podcast because that helps us amplify the message out there and be part of the power of women community. Have you ever thought about starting your own business? Today’s conversation is with Mandi Gunsberger, five-time founder, visionary dealmaker and powerhouse behind Babyology and Nourish Travel.

We’re going to talk about the real cost of entrepreneurship, which includes burnout, identity, and the pressure of holding it all together whilst building something truly extraordinary. It’s a fast-paced masterclass in business growth, connection, and the power of vulnerability. Mandi Goodensberger, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (01:51)

Thanks so much for having me, Di. I’m so excited to be here today and share all the good, the bad, and a lot of the ugly about building businesses and what that entails.

DI GILLETT [Host] (02:03)

brilliant. So let the masterclass begin. You’ve, look, I don’t even know where to start because there’s a lot with it, Mandi, but you’ve built five businesses, you’ve raised three daughters, you’ve successfully sold on Australia’s largest parent media company, which was Babyology. Where does your entrepreneurial spirit come from?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (02:26)

Yeah, that’s an interesting question to start with and I’d have to say number one, it would be my dad. He was 100 % my person and he was a very different type of entrepreneur, I suppose, in the 70s and the 80s. He was an entrepreneur for necessity, and to put food on the table versus what a lot of us do now. So, you know, he owned a record company. He was a jewelry salesman. He was a clown at kids birthday parties. ⁓ I remember at the age of

five going on newspaper runs with him at 5am, know, where you’d throw the newspaper out the car and it would end up in someone’s front garden. So, you know, he was always hustling just for the next dollar to be able to feed us, you know, very middle class.

that I grew up in and so he had to do that but I feel like I’ve always hustled from a young age as well. ⁓ used to, well don’t know if that’s a hustle really, I used to steal money from the bank in Monopoly when I used to play that with my sister. That’s more illegal than.

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:26)

Nope,

yeah, but it’ll be hustle.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (03:29)

No,

but I would have an auction in our room every week when we were kids and she was older than me and I would auction off both our toys to her and try and make a few bucks until mum found out what was going on. really from the age of 13, I worked in hairdressing salons. I worked in a bakery, you know, from 5am. I used to work in cafes or stock shelves at the supermarket. So I was always looking, you know, selling local cookies in the area and things like that. So I think that’s when it all started.

for me was in my teenage years and then moving over to San Francisco in my early 20s was just so incredibly eye-opening.

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:08)

What did you do? What was that?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:10)

Oh,

was crazy. So I was able to somehow wangle myself a work visa, which is very, very hard to do from Australia to America. But I just finished uni. I was 22 years old. I moved out with my boyfriend and I worked in hotels. I worked in the Hilton, Hyatt and Intercontinental hotels, which was a crazy world to be in. And I think I managed to get there because it was dot com era. So, you know, lot of regular people leaving regular jobs in the Bay Area to go for the dot com where you’d go canoeing on a Friday.

there’d be fizzball in the break rooms and all that stuff. So it was actually a good time for me to wangle my way in and to…

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:47)

Very

Google, Mandi.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:49)

It was very Google. It was when all of that was just starting to happen. And you’d see 22 year olds over there driving a Ferrari, ordering a burger with a $600 bottle of wine from Napa. So I think I just really was like, wow, that’s really impressive. So when we moved back from San Francisco when I was 24, 25, I really had that entrepreneurial spirit in me.

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:12)

Yeah, wow, great story. So with that in mind, what fuels you more? it the buzz of creating and scaling a business or is it the satisfaction of seeing the successful exit?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (05:26)

Oh gosh, 100 % they’re creating the business every single time. think, you know, the buzz of coming up with an idea, acting on it, working bloody hard for many years, you know, they’re not overnight successes by all means and turning it into something profitable that comes from that idea is just so rewarding. I mean, if you’re in it just for the exit in Australia, I think nowadays 10 % of startups, you know,

fail within the first year and 70 % fail within those next two to five years. So if you’re in it to be at that exit.

you know, 90 % it’s not going to happen. I think even higher if you’re a woman, to be honest. So a successful exit, while it is pure gold, it’s incredibly unlikely that you have that successful exit. So you’ve really got to love the build. You’ve got to love the drive. You’ve got to love working every second of every day to build something that you believe in. And I think, yeah, one of my incredible mentors, Jane Huxley, way back when actually taught me a very early how

you go into a new business idea while planning your exit. So it might never happen. But I think it’s worth thinking about when you build, like what you want it to look like. Do you want it to be a lifestyle business? Do you want to sell out of it? Do you want to stay on when someone buys it? You know, all those questions. Because I think that really affects ⁓ the way you build it. You know, determining how you set it up, if you take funding, who you take funding from along the way. So it does affect the final outcome.

So I do now when I launch something these days I do work backwards as to what does this look like in 10, 15, 20 years? Because that does really affect the way you run it but absolutely hands down I love the build. I love getting that first sale. I love you know when profit actually exceeds what it should be, what you thought it would be. Yeah, it’s never about the exit although it’s obviously very exciting. I did have one big exit but again five businesses one exit so. It happens all the time.

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:28)

Yeah,

but that that hustle is is what you developed as a kid. mean, that’s the kid trading off your toys in the in the bedroom.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (07:38)

Definitely.

And especially for someone like me where all my businesses are not in a specific area, it’s literally sitting there and going, huh, someone else is not doing this. So for instance, coming back from San Francisco and being obsessed with those triangular scones that they had at Starbucks at the time and thinking I’m going to be the next Byron Bay cookie company because that’s not here yet. You know, so it’s, it’s any idea I come up with, I just launch myself into and see where it goes.

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:04)

Yeah, and that’s a great visionary mindset to read what’s going on in the marketplace and be curious. And I love that attitude. So that’s pretty.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:14)

Absolutely, it’s about seeing what’s not around and then actually discovering why it’s not around. Maybe there’s a very good reason no one else has gone up against that company, but if there’s not, you just think, well, if I don’t do it, someone else might do it.

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:26)

Yeah.

So you’ve developed a reputation as a relationship ninja and visionary deal maker. How did those tags come about?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:38)

⁓ Look, I think I’ve always been a people person from a very young age, like from a child, and then moving into hospitality as my first career as well led me to understand and know a lot about people. And I think when I look at that and the way partnerships work, I look at partnerships as being a lot like great relationships. So they’re really about the people behind them and building those connections rather than, ⁓ you know, the paperwork and what goes into it.

I think for me trust and respect is a big one. So actually finding people who care about each other’s success is huge in this space. ⁓ Having shared values is another big one. It’s not just about the goals, it’s about alignment with one another. And honest communication often when you meet people or you’re trying to work on partnerships, ⁓ you know, it’s not working out and it’s about having those difficult conversations or working out how to pivot or going your own way at an early stage.

and realising it wasn’t meant to be. That’s very important rather than holding on to something for much longer than you should have because you think it should work out. So for me it’s always been about real connection with people, 100%. So any deal, any partnership, anyone I’ve ever worked with has started with a genuine chat rather than necessarily a pitch. And a great example I think of with something like that is a dear friend of mine, ⁓ Rob Antelov,

who’s actually an incredible ⁓ &A advisor. ⁓ He was and he still is. And when I was building Babyology, Rob, probably after two years, approached me or I met him through a friend of mine and we had a coffee and I was nowhere near any type of ⁓ &A exit, whatever. And this is what he does. But I think probably for the next six or seven years, I would have a coffee or chat to Rob every year or every 18 months and just ask for his advice and he’d give it out to me, with no idea that when it came

to what I would approach him. And I’d actually met other advisors through the journey and worked with them for a while. But when it came to, you know, me raising money at the end and selling the business and who I wanted by my side, hands down, it was Rob, because I’d built that trust with him. He’d given me all that knowledge over those years. And I mean, that was a brilliant experience for me and for him. And since then, I think I’ve introduced him to 15 to 20 other entrepreneurial friends who he’s, you know, given advice to over the years. Some of them he’s sold their businesses.

some of them he hasn’t but I look at that as a real pinnacle for what relationships and partnerships out there are is that whole you know you stand by someone for years you don’t know if it’s ever gonna go anywhere but when the time comes you know it might go somewhere and then it’s it’s a win for everyone so a huge influence in my life yeah no he’s good guy and I don’t think

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:25)

Yeah, to crystal

And I agree,

think partnerships are so hard. I I’ve worked for individuals who’ve been probably the longest standing partners in the search and recruitment world. And it’s admirable because it is not easy to choose partners. I’ve gone into business with people before and I’ve looked to go into business with people before and read the you know, seen the red flag just before we’ve done.

signed on the dotted line and I approached it really like a marriage because it’s much easier to call it before you get married than trying to unbundle it once you’re married.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:10)

and a lot of people don’t get to do, a lot of people find out after the time that it’s not a good fit with someone. And it really is, you spend more time than your business partner than you do with your actual partner if you’re in business. And one thing I’ve always done is I’ve never had a business with other people that, know, partnership with them. It just isn’t my style, I don’t think. I like to make decisions very quickly and you can’t often do that when you’ve got two or three founders.

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:37)

Well, when you got to buy in, I know I was in business with somebody you always used to say to me, and I love them dearly and they’re a friend, but they were, I’m like you, I’m a quick decision maker. And they would always say, I need to think about it overnight. I’d go,

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:52)

hahahaha

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:55)

Exactly. And that’s what I’m-

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:57)

I know yeah and look sometimes you need those people to slow you down because I don’t always

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:02)

They weren’t away,

they were often right. I often stop me jumping into the deep end too soon.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:10)

No, absolutely. But I also find that it’s hard to get slowed down. Board work is a great example of where everything moves very slowly on boards. And I’m like, we’ve got the meeting now. Why don’t we all just say yes? Why are we tabling it for the next three month meeting? I just don’t understand how that works.

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:28)

Have you had advisory boards wrapped around your businesses, Mandi?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:34)

I’ve had advisory boards but never actual boards which I think is for that reason. So I’ve always employed advisors or paid advisors or given them equity but I haven’t had a full know NED board experience around me. I’ve been an NED but I haven’t had them on my board because I just don’t think that’s a way that I work very well with seven other people telling me like this is what we want to do and we want to go back and we want to review this. I’d be like I’m already halfway there so yeah.

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:00)

Yeah, you’re one of these people it’s hard to keep pace with so I can see that.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:07)

Yeah, we’ll get to that afterwards. It’s not always the best way.

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:12)

Yeah. So when you’re networking, Mandi, when you walk into a room of people, do you scope out and know who you’re going to connect with? How do you approach it?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:25)

Do I think, and to be honest, as I get older, big groups of people and big conferences and big events is not necessarily my thing. I much prefer going to a dinner with 10 people or those smaller groups where you really can connect. But for me, I think it’s never about networking. It’s more about the connection. And I’m drawn to people who are authentic, who are curious, as I said before, and who aren’t very performative. So a lot of it, and I know it sounds crazy, but it does come down.

to gut instinct or that red flag as you were talking about. I’ve always been very good at reading people and I can read someone within five minutes which might not be very fair but I really can read them instantly and can usually tell if someone’s energy values and just feeling aligns with mine and I think it comes down to like if that conversation feels real and curious I will lean into it but if it’s very one-sided and all about their wins and all about what they’ve achieved.

or if they’re distracted looking over my shoulder at who else is in the room, I know that they’re probably not my vibe and I tend to stay away from people like that. And I think I’ve also, I’ve just got no time for small talk. I don’t wanna talk about where you’re going on holidays, your kids, the weather, anything like that. I wanna have real honest conversations about ideas and what drives people. So I think you can really make up your mind within a few minutes ⁓ what someone’s

going to be like and you you get that my god we’re very similar or you know this is not a conversation that’s going to be a deep thoughtful instance.

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:04)

Yeah, you’ve kind of described how my philosophy on life, mean, going to an opening of an event is I would rather stab myself in the eye with a pen. I think that term networking is almost a dirty word. You talked about collaborating and finding connection, much more appealing.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (16:26)

Exactly, collaboration is where it’s all at I think. And to give you an example, I recently did a retreat with 25 women in the Gold Coast which was incredible. Lisa Ailes was the host, she’s incredible. And they all came away, all these women said they’ve made lifelong friends. There are people they never thought they’d meet but they actually didn’t still at the end of the retreat knew what those other people did for a living. Because I think, you know, that whole what do you do, where are you from, where did you go to school, it’s all from the past.

a real conversation with someone about the fact that, I don’t know, you’ve got a deaf person in your family and they’ve got a deaf person in their family and you bond over something really real and you don’t actually know what they do but you know you want to be part of their world. So I found that really interesting that women can come away these days and not know if they’re a lawyer or a doctor or a librarian. It really doesn’t matter anymore because it’s all about if you connect with them or not.

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:21)

Yeah, I agree. So back to entrepreneurship, when you’re trying to scale, what’s the biggest mistake you see people make when they approach a potential brand or a business partnership?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (17:36)

Right. Look, I think for a lot of people, they still see it as the one size fits all model. So they’ll put together a beautiful shiny deck and it might look beautiful and it might have amazing information in it. But when you send that out to 10, 20, 50 different brands, you DM people on LinkedIn, track people down, it’s not going to work because I think true partnerships, they don’t work like that. It’s really about understanding what that specific

brand, all that specific individual, what their challenges are, what they care about and how you can help them achieve their goals. They’re kind of the three things that I always look at because it’s different for even like Apple to Samsung, it’s different from McDonald’s to Hungry Jacks. Even though you go, well, I’m going out to all these fast food because I want a fast food partner, it’s individual for every single one you do. And I think I touched on this before, but for my first eight years, was in hospitality.

And honestly, I think the world would be a better place if every 20 something year old spent some time in hospitality because it really teaches you what it means ⁓ to see people, understand people, how to have genuine conversations. mean, I was 19 or 20 and I was working at, you know, the Shangri-La in the city. And at that age, to be able to notice how people feel when you make them feel a certain way, it’s really affected the way I, yeah, the way I work in the

in anything I do in any specific business. And one of my all time favourite books, which I’m not sure if you’ve read, is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Garagno. my god, it’s like I’ve probably read it six times and I sometimes read it or listen to it in the car. But basically I recommend anyone read it no matter what industry you’re in. It’s a brilliant reminder that… ⁓

Yeah, you can make people feel truly cared for in this magic in the tiny things that happen. I think that that’s where people go wrong. It doesn’t have to be expensive. It can be the smallest tiny thing. And his book’s brilliant. He talks about one of the biggest things he did one day for people at his restaurant in New York, which ended up being the top restaurant in the world, but was go out and buy a hot dog for them from a local hot dog vendor because he overheard them say they’re about to leave New York and they didn’t get a chance to have

hot dog. So it was like a six dollar, you know, thing that he did, but he took it to the kitchen. It was cut into four incredible pieces. It was plated up. And because he overheard this conversation, it’s those tiny things that I’m always trying to do in life to, whether it’s my clients, my people that come on retreat or anything, I just try and surprise and delight them with tiny things that will make a difference. And I can guarantee you if there’s a partnership to be had, that’s the way to do it versus, you know, blitzing 200 companies with the same doc.

moment.

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:31)

I couldn’t agree more, And in my own experience coming out of the executive search world, I knew only too well that if I had approached somebody, my approach was going to unearth their sort of status quo at the time. these conversations used to go on for months and months and months. But I always emailed on a Friday afternoon, even when I had nothing to tell them, simply to say, no update, because

what it felt a short period of time for me, it felt like an eternity for them being on the hook. So it is those little things of caring about how people feel and putting yourself in their shoes that I think is so, so important.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:16)

And what that would have felt to that person on a Friday afternoon, it meant that they probably never went to any other executive search person because they’re

DI GILLETT [Host] (21:24)

Well, it’s

exactly that. It’s how I won business. you’re absolutely right. So you’ve painted a pretty honest picture of juggling work and you’re part of the sandwich generation like I am. So you’ve got everybody at each end of the spectrum. What does burnout and working under pressure look like when you’re actually at the center of it?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:54)

Yeah, that’s very interesting and very real still for me. I still work on that a lot. But I think burnout for me, it’s not necessarily lying on the floor unable to move. It’s more of a subtle and sneaky thing that it catches up with you. So it’s doing everything for everyone, as we just said, and feeling like I’m failing at all of it, to be honest. Because when you’re stretched so thin and you’ve got the kids and you’ve got parents, and let’s not forget, there’s a husband or a partner or someone, there’s clients.

and says all this stuff going on, ⁓ I’ve got businesses, I’m sitting on boards, I’m whatever, and there’s nowhere to turn. And I think ⁓ for me, it’s trying to even remember what self-care feels like because every second of every day, I’m up doing something for someone else. ⁓ I’ve had, full honesty, I’ve had two proper full burnouts, nervous breakdowns in the last 20 years where I literally couldn’t get out of bed. And so I think I’m hyper aware of the signs.

⁓ You know that happened with that it can be tears over losing your charger for your computer It can be sitting in the car for two hours before school pickup answering emails. Whereas really I should be going for a walk ⁓ You know, it’s canceling my yin yoga, which I adore which I did cancel this morning because I knew we were doing this but you know, but doing those things, know, they kind of all just come up on you and you know, sometimes it’s even like realizing you’re lying down for a pat smear and that feels great because it’s

first time I’ve actually lied down all day. and so even though that’s quite funny it’s also quite funny.

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:29)

It’s so good.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:32)

Yeah, you know, like you go, my God, I’m really looking forward to this, because it means I’ll just stop for five minutes. I’m like, that is not a healthy way to live my life. ⁓

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:40)

It’s not.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:41)

yeah, and look, and there’s no way of getting out of the sandwich generation. Like you can’t just throw it all in and run away. But it’s about learning how to manage all those pieces. So I think for me, I’ve learned through the two breakdowns, which actually take months to come back from. So if I don’t go to that place again, it’s actually much better to stop before I get there. So it’s obviously not being everything to everyone. Like sometimes I say to kids, it’s 7pm, I’m not going to cook, I’m actually going to bed to work.

Netflix I’ll see you all in the morning and I try and not have guilt about that because I know that I can’t possibly do that tonight. That’s just what I need and I think they’re fine with that. I cancel on things now which I never used to. Sometimes I have tickets to certain things and on the day I’ll say to a good friend you know I just I can’t I’m exhausted what I really need to do is go to bed and I’m okay.

with doing those things where I think for years when I was younger, I wasn’t okay with doing those. I pushed myself to go to that big event or that opening or, cause you know, what if I met someone that was gonna change my life now? I’m a bit like, I’m exhausted so I don’t have to do that. you know, having systems as well that save your sanity is good. And for me, it’s a small moment. So I’m never gonna get, you know, the big week away by myself to just ponder my own thoughts, but I will be able to have a laugh with the family.

I mean half the time they’re laughing at me to be honest, which you know either can make me laugh or cry Depending on my frame of mind, but yeah, it’s a dip in the ocean. It’s a one-hour Yin class It’s all those things I try and go in the ocean every single day now after I go to gym and I used to be like, oh, that’s a bit You know, I feel a bit guilty about doing that. Screw it, you know, go to gym go for a dip in the ocean I’m at my computer by 930 in the morning. So I think Yeah, it’s it’s really tricky to put those things into your life. But otherwise we

just burn ourselves into the ground. Our parents’ generation didn’t have laptops and mobiles and all this stuff where we were on 24-7, but I have the ability to wake up at 5 and start working and work till midnight. So it’s up to me to…

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:47)

Not those things.

I mean, it is a good point. I I grew up with a father who was on the land and the hours that they’d work, particularly during harvest, were ridiculous. And I probably learned to work to burn out by observing. And you potentially did too with a father that was going hard. And sometimes that’s just baked into our DNA, I think. And it’s to unlearn it.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:16)

It’s really hard to unlearn it. And I think for years, our generation has also been saying, oh, the younger millennials, they don’t know how to work. They, you know, they come in late, they leave early. I’ve actually changed the way I think about them and think, actually, we could learn from them. They’re out at run clubs. They’re leaving early to go to yoga or whatever. And I think like good on them. Whereas, you know, 10 years ago, I was like, oh, you hire people and they leave the office at 6pm. But like, good on them. We should have done that for 20 years.

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:44)

And you know, when I find myself thinking that, I do sometimes wonder whether we’re admiring them or we’re actually jealous of them because they’ve actually taken the decision that we haven’t done.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:58)

Absolutely, and we’re paying the price for that now. I would have loved to all those years have gone and left and gone to out with a friend rather than being like, can’t, I’m gonna work late tonight. Like I was the one forcing myself to work late. No one else was doing that. But I think that it’s great. They have much more of a balance than we do. Maybe they won’t have as many mental health problems in their 40s, 50s and 60s that we do.

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:19)

Yeah.

So do you have, do you have the ability now to realise when you’re getting too wrapped up in, your business?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (27:31)

To be honest, it’s something I’m working on. found a really, really good, she’s almost like a life coach, work coach slash psychologist. So she’s very good at actually, cause I came to her and said, after my last breakdown, which was only last year, I said, I feel like I don’t have that internal, other people are able to stop when they want to stop. I will take on more and more and more work until I have a breakdown because I’m just a yes person. So she’s helping me put systems in process.

in place and like at the moment we’re working on the fact that 2026 is full. Mandi you have to say no and you say to people from now on I can work with you in 2027 which doesn’t come easily to me but it’s just I think it’s going to be for the best so it’s I don’t feel like I’ve got that internal monologue but I’m working on it.

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:21)

But there’s a great message. You’ve recognized that you don’t, but it’s smart to put somebody around you who can manage that. So that’s a bit like six eyes and we’ve all.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:34)

Yeah, absolutely. And she’s in charge of that. Yeah, definitely. Like I said to her the other day, like I’ve kind of had two or three retreats a year, then six a year, and next year I’ve got 10. And so we’ve gone through and worked out that like 10 is actually the maximum amount.

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:50)

It’s

like doing ten weddings, Mandi. That’s a lot.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:52)

know, I know, each retreat takes like 350 to 400 hours. So, and I don’t do that, don’t sit down and work it out. So really what I’m going to need is staff at this point to help me do this. But I didn’t realise that she’s the one that looked at the hours, looked at the week and went, do you want to work 130 hours a week? I’m like, no, she’s like, well, that’s what you’ve just set yourself up for. So yeah, it’s about finding people that want to help. Because I don’t, I just say, oh my God, that sounds so exciting.

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:20)

There’s your mirror. Yes.

Well, I’m here talking with Mandi Gunsberger, who is a visionary entrepreneur and as you’ve already gathered, a workaholic. But coming up, we’re going to explore the power of being vulnerable. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. So you’ve been pretty candid in our discussion today. ⁓

about burnout and your last one as you said was only in the last 12 months ago. What did you do after selling Babyology?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:00)

⁓ that’s a big question. ⁓ yeah, after selling Babyology, I, well, I thought I’d planned, carefully planned at my exit, to be honest, but, and I’d negotiated exactly how many hours I would consult to the new owners as a maximum. ⁓ But the day the deal was done, they literally said, we’ve got it from here. So that was a massive blow to me, which was, you know, for the best in the long term. But I still remember walking out of the office that day.

feeling like Jerry Maguire.

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:32)

Yeah.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:33)

I packed a box, I had a tin of tuna and a notebook. That was pretty much all I had in my own company. ⁓ And you know, and I even had to ask them, like, I wanted to take my staff for lunch. And it just all felt so surreal. But we’d always been so big on setting up a Wiki that we’d had like this 400 page Wiki, which now everyone has with their business, but it was the Bible of the business that they were basically like, we’ve got it from here. We don’t need to anymore. So that was really ⁓ odd, I think. And that was very surreal after 11 years of building a business.

you

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:03)

Sum

up in two words what that feeling was. What are those two words?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (31:09)

those two words would just be ⁓ devastated, surprised. I just, took me a few weeks to be like, for one minute we’re signing papers and we’ve just done this big deal and now I’m no longer in the office. Cause I think also in media it was unheard of. Like I basically sold at that time thinking someone would buy us for two or three years and then we’d be able to live our lives. And all of a sudden we were leading our lives and didn’t know what to do with them. Cause my husband was in the business then as well.

and we were both all of a sudden like unemployed. ⁓ So that was okay. But then, so I think I was like, I’m going to help other founders. So, you know, I went and consulted with other founders, still very fresh out of my business. But honestly, ⁓ it just didn’t light me up at that point in my life. I found it really hard when I couldn’t make things happen. Yeah. And you’d go and you meet with someone who suggest all this stuff. And a month later, none of it had been done. So I was actually quite, I think I was

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:57)

and weren’t ready to see.

Well

that’s the thing about consulting. I think consulting is really hollow because you come up with all of the big picture stuff but it’s not your task to do the implementation. I find that for a doer, and I’ve seen that in the search world, I would never advise somebody with your demeanor to go into the consulting world because it would be unfulfilling.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (32:22)

That’s me.

Exactly. Well, I know that now, but I did not know that. So, I found it like really frustrating. So really what I did then was I threw myself into planning a massive bucket list adventure to Tuscany with my family. So we moved our three girls over to Tuscany for a year. Husband wasn’t very keen to go. He was literally like, you need a job. You need something to entertain you. But I’m like, we are going to Tuscany. So, yes, so we had the most incredible life changing year where we went to

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:37)

Not much.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:05)

over 20 different countries that year. My girls were five, 11 and 12. So really interesting time to pull them out of their worlds. know, lots of family time, no running around, no meetings, no agendas. You know, we did some consulting over there in the early hours, but really we just got to hang out and enjoy. And that was 2019. So we were really lucky. We didn’t even know COVID was around the corner.

So we did that whole year there, bought them back to go to school in that February when everyone was like, my God, you’re from Italy, you’ve got COVID.

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:36)

Four weeks before.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:39)

before

it all happened exactly. So it was kind of crazy. And then I think came the harder years, that whole post COVID-y time. ⁓ You know, for the first time in 20 years, I think I decided I’d go get a real job. And you know, I hadn’t worked for anyone else for years, but I just thought, you know, the stability, was that whole grass is greener on the other side, stability of the paycheck, someone else being in charge, me just, you know, rocking up and starting.

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:05)

in my book.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:06)

Yes, I got fired three times, not once, but three times.

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:11)

How

did that go? Not so well.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:14)

Not so well. just couldn’t stay in my box. I would go in and try and make too much change, you know, and other founders or other people in organizations that

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:23)

Were

you surprised to be fired, Merdie? ⁓

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:27)

I surprised the first and second time, the third time I kind of expected it and then you know realised as many of us are we’re just unemployable like no one wants someone who’s been doing their own

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:39)

And that’s a badge of honor, there’s nothing wrong with that, that is a badge of honor.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:42)

No, exactly.

But I just thought it’d be nice for a while, like to be, you know, someone pays you to sick leave and for like holiday leave. Well, just nice to be able to say to the kids, don’t worry, I’ve got this rather than we really don’t know what’s going to happen this time next week or next year. ⁓ But yeah, I think that silver lining of that period in that chapter reminded me to my core that I am a founder, that I do like to create things that I’m, you know, that

that’s really what I’m built for. So, you know, I use everything I’ve learned and I’ve, you know, gone again, cause I was like, I think I could do another one. ⁓ it’s not all bad, but it was like very much, you know, after six, I’d always get to that six month period and then they’d call me in and be like, yeah, this is not working out. So I’m like, okay, great. Yeah. Sometimes it was like, like I was completely unaware. And then other times I’m like,

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:18)

Thank you guys.

for over performing and not under performing. Who would have thought?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (35:41)

Yeah, but was overperforming but it was also just like I think this is what we should do and this is how we should do it and we’re not you know we’ve only got this percentage of this and I think other people don’t want to hear that they’re happy to go at their slower pace ⁓ and not have someone else tell them what to do so I know that.

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:59)

Good

to know. So you’ve said from the deepest resets, sometimes it doesn’t come from doing more, but it actually does come from doing less, a bit like your year in Tuscany. Why do you actually think that is such a hard message for overachievers, such as yourself, to actually absorb?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (36:22)

Yeah, and you died, sounds like you’re one of, you’re the same as me, so. But I think, to be honest, for… ⁓

For most of us high achievers, our entire identity has been built around doing things and ticking things off and getting things done. Like that’s the way I’ve lived since I was a teenager. So I’ve been rewarded my whole life for being productive, for being reliable, for being capable. You know, I’m the one that gets things done. I’m the one that organizes the family get togethers, the Christmas, you know, who’s bringing what. So when you suddenly stop or slow down and say, I don’t want to host that,

it does feel or it can feel like a failure. ⁓ So yes, I struggle with that. And I think, ⁓ yeah, I’m probably not the only person out there who writes something on my to-do list after I’ve done it, just so I have the glee in crossing it off and feeling like I’ve achieved it. No, see, we all do it. I’m like done that, putting that on my list, crossing it off, exactly.

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:16)

That was just me!

have a day list with colour coded tabs that vary in colour based on urgency, Mandi.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (37:32)

Yeah, no see we need help we need help and it’s not easy for people like us then to slow down to sit and read a book You know, I’ll sit and read a book But then I’ve got my laptop open and I’m over here going what emails have I got because that’s what makes me feel good is doing those things So for me it did take the complete burnouts, which I hope you know other people listening Do not have to go through to realize that you know it rest is not a weakness for me It always felt like a weakness I had to keep going but it actually is more wisdom

than anything. I said, looking at the younger generation and them taking time out, I wish that I would have done that earlier or given myself permission to pause or to breathe or to go to yoga or to read a book, you know. But it’s really uncomfortable for people like myself or yourself that spent decades proving their worth through how many things I can achieve on a list every day. So it is, it’s learning a new language and it’s, you know, a language of stillness and not having to be busy, like, you know, going through…

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:31)

you think your kids are learning? Do you think you’re producing another generation of you? Or do you think they’re a little bit more informed?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (38:40)

I think to be honest, and they’re now 13, 18 and 19. No, I think they’ve seen me. They’ve been through my breakdowns. They’ve been through my last previous three months where from last, I don’t know, September till December, I really couldn’t get out of bed because I was so burnt out. You you rebuild yourself by doing one activity a day. Today, I’m going to have a shower. Today, like really severe burns.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:03)

You’ve

really done it, haven’t you?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:05)

just hit the bottom so quickly because I never know when to stop. So I think the girls have seen that and it actually has taught them a lesson.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:14)

we’re

not going to do that, we’re not going to

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:17)

You’re crazy.

Why do you like, you now when I’m like, I’ve got these 10 retreats, they’re all like, you’re a bloody idiot, mum. Like, you know that you’re gonna fall under all that weight. And I’m like, no, no, I’m gonna get help. I’m gonna hire people because I don’t wanna be there again. And I’m not good at saying no. So I’ve got this other person over here who is my no person, my kind of advisor. And then my kids and my family that say, do you really wanna go there again? So I do think the girls, even the little one at 13, you know, has seen me.

in and goes are you driving me to school? No, looks like you’re staying in bed again today. So you know I don’t think that’s necessarily a negative thing for them to learn at this age. I think that’s what life is you know you work too hard and you burn out and you fall in a heat.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:56)

No, no, no. ⁓

Yeah, and I know in my own role models in life, I learned as much from the negative things as I did from the positive. And I mean, that should be our learning journey in life in general that we acquire it from all of those experiences. So tell me about your business. You’re now focusing on other people’s wellness, I suspect, in these retreats. The irony of that,

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (40:20)

Yeah.

Exactly. that’s the thing. What does it look like if the owner and founder of a wellness business who talks about giving yourself a rest has a nervous breakdown? It’s not a good look. so ⁓ yes, so I definitely try to practice what I preach and take that pause and take that breath. But yeah, absolutely. Nourish Travel was born out of my own ⁓ healing journey. ⁓ You know, I hit that wall after I sold Babyology and I spent so many years in that constant juggling the business, juggling the kids, juggling parents.

I mean, ⁓

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:24)

how they live their life.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:25)

And quite often, it’s incredible. So I got there and I was like, you know, 10, 12, 2, and I’d be late for everything because quite often that 10 o’clock meeting is them saying, let’s have a coffee. Let’s get to know each other.

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:38)

why in the rag trade we always used to know that fabric deliveries would always be late from Italy because they ran on their own time and that is what

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:48)

own schedule and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. They’re calmer, they’re happier, love life, they have their CS star. So you know I haven’t brought a lot of that back in but the one meeting a day thing really got me because that meeting is often a coffee then a walk then a nice lunch and you you spend three or four or five hours with one person and then you decide whether you’re going to work with them. So talk about partnerships and really understanding what someone wants. That’s an incredible thing.

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:15)

There’s a lot

to learn. there’s ⁓

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (42:17)

Whereas

we think having eight meetings a day is really the way to do it. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And you you get on a call and you’re like, right, where are we? Have we signed a contract? What are we doing? That’s not necessarily the way other people work around the world. So, ⁓ yeah, I think during that time, I started to do things that helped me feel more human and come out of that real adrenal fatigue I was in. was, you know, having honest conversations with many other women as well, all through COVID, you know, just about that they’re all carrying

all these things. So I think that’s how NARS travel really began was to be able to create a space to offer other women and men. We have a lot of men that come on our retreats as well. Just permission to slow down. So I do things that are one day. I do things that are three days. I do them locally. I do them internationally in Tuscany or Botswana or wherever, you know, hosts want to go. But it’s all about, even if it’s just the one day one, giving you that space to just look out for yourself. If you want to spend that day sitting

reading a book and not talking to anyone, do it. Like I don’t force anyone, it’s not a retreat where I’ll gong your room and say, you know, it’s time for the morning sunset walk. If someone, you know, I had a woman recently that came up, that came to one and she had a one, a four and a five year old.

had never been away from them and her husband gifted it to her. She just wanted to sleep and I was like, I’m just gonna come check on you and make sure that you’ve eaten, but otherwise you don’t need to be at anything. And like, so for everyone, it actually means something different. It’s some people it’s connecting with others, some people it’s doing nothing and some people it’s filling that schedule with, you know, one thing after the other. But you know, everyone is about to have that.

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:57)

Mind you, that’s harder on the organiser because you haven’t got a set agenda.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (44:03)

It is and what I do is I have a set agenda. Actually today I’ve just sent out for my next one. These are the five or six things we’re thinking of doing in the afternoon. We’re not doing all of them. Let us know which ones you would want to do the most and I will surprise you with which ones we do. But every single day of every moment I say nothing is compulsory. If you don’t want to come to anything you don’t have to. But women have and a lot of men as well have FOMOs. So the minute you actually put something on a schedule they

God this going to the beekeeping might be the best thing ever. What if I don’t go to that? then what if I don’t go to this? So I actually do allow space where nothing is on for those people that feel FOMO because they can’t help themselves come to everything and then at the end of it they say I really wish there was some downtime because I didn’t give myself any. So it is harder for me as an organizer but I think I’m getting to the point where I understand the way people’s rhythms work and giving them that two to four or two to five afternoon gap will allow them to

a nap or a swim or do yoga or read a book or whatever. But yeah if I schedule something super fun they’ll be there so we try and it’s like toddlers you have to give them their afternoon break.

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:14)

So Mandi, I’d love you to speak directly to the female entrepreneur or business person listening to the podcast today. If you were to pay forward all the amassed knowledge and wisdom that you’ve learned over time and could speak to the version of yourself who was running on empty, what would you tell her?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (45:39)

The first thing I tell her is to stop trying to do it all.

It’s actually impossible and I don’t know anyone who can do it all and not have massive mental health issues by doing that. So I think what I’ve learnt is I don’t need to earn rest or love or success by doing more. ⁓ You know, you’ve got to believe, which, you know, I’ve just turned 50 and it’s taken me this many years, but you’ve got to believe that you are enough even when you pause and especially when you pause. So taking that pause doesn’t mean you’re not succeeding.

and that you’re failing, it means that you actually care about yourself, about the others around you, about your family, about your business, whatever you’re doing, because it will give you more to be able to do things. know, it’s that the world’s not going to fall apart if you take that breath. And asking for help is not a weakness, it’s actually a strength to say like, not coping, can’t do it all, don’t know how to stop doing it all, which is where I’m always at. Like I actually can’t stop myself, so I need other people to

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:42)

You

need an outsourced

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (46:45)

you

Exactly, and that’s fine. I think that’s fine. I know that about myself after all these years that I’m my own worst enemy and I’ll take on too much till I fall. So I think that would be the biggest thing. ⁓ You know, and that’s why I absolutely love doing what I do now because I get these women that come to me. I build a relationship with men and women for the six months prior to a retreat about what they want, what it looks like, why they’re coming. You know, it’s not just those three days and then I tailor it to them so that they get the rest

and that individual thing that they need. As I was saying, a retreat is not a one size fits all, get 25 people. I actually understand each person and why they’ve come and how I can make it special for them. So I love it. It’s like all the things I’ve ever done put into one now.

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:32)

how wonderful. Well, Mandi, thank you so much for sharing your entrepreneurial knowledge and also being so candid about being ⁓ so focused and so committed to pushing yourself to the brink. I think for many listeners, and I know interviewing you here today, it is a bit like somebody holding up the mirror and you’re going, okay.

Alrighty, I need to read the signs. need to listen. And as you said so rightly just before, the wheels are not going to fall off if you take an extra hour to go to yoga class or you do something. And next time, ring me and say, I need to reschedule because I’ve got too much on my plate. No, don’t worry.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:21)

going

to yoga tonight. I’m going to yoga at 6pm. But no thanks for having me. It’s been so lovely to have a chat with you. Yeah, love what you do and I really hope that people get something out of this. I did warn you I was very honest. So I have been very honest.

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:38)

That’s what we want. And Mandi, what’s the name of the business? I’m going to put it in the show notes, but give me the name of the business for the retreat. It’s nourishtravel.com. Nourishtravel.com. That’s it. Nourishtravel.com. Fantastic. And I know Mandi shows up on LinkedIn. And if you’re interested to learn more about what I do outside of the podcast, I too show up quite a bit on LinkedIn and I’ve got a power of reinvention newsletter.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:47)

www.nourishtravel.com

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:07)

that I post weekly there and like Mandi, I’m in midlife and we’re doing lots of things and we’re not stopping.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (49:16)

Exactly,

it’s our time. children… So it’s our time. Thank very for having me, Di.

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:18)

Thanks Mandi. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Find Mandi Gunsberger at:

Website https://nourishtravel.com/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/nourishtravel/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandigunsberger/

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From Setback To Comeback

by admin | Nov 10, 2025 | Burnout, Female Empowerment, Mindfulness, Podcast For Women

What happens when the drive that makes you great becomes the force that brings you undone?

Life coach, bestselling author and keynote speaker Shannah Kennedy joins me, Di Gillett on the Power Of Women Podcast to explore the thin line between ambition and burnout, and why recovery, identity and self-awareness are now critical skills for high-performing women.

From managing elite athletes to living at full throttle, Shannah’s story is a reminder that setbacks can be the start of your greatest comeback. If you’re willing to do the inner work.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

➜ Why “Who are you without your job?” is the most confronting (and necessary) question you can ask.

➜ How to rebuild your identity beyond titles and achievements.

➜ The difference between ambition and overachievement.

➜ Why women in midlife face “the perfect storm” — and how to plan your way through it.

➜ Daily rituals for resilience: mindfulness, breathwork and boundaries.

Shannah said:

“Setbacks are inevitable.”

“The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body.”

“Treat yourself like a high-performing human because that’s what you are.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:02)

Well the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. ⁓

DI GILLETT – Host (00:09)

We’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:29)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curve ball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

we go into, you know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or move forward with your health. We need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world.

The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body. The question is never why me, but more who will I become because of this? A really important question to be asking ourselves in change. Women in midlife are facing the perfect storm. Without a plan, it can break you, and with a plan, it can make you.

DI GILLETT – Host (01:57)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome back to the POWER OF WOMEN podcast. What I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And we talk resilience, reinvention and the moments that don’t make the headlines but in fact should.

So the conversation today is a really important one and I know this is going to resonate with so many of you listening because today we’re going to explore how to turn setbacks into comebacks. And joining me to discuss this and how we approach it is one of Australia’s most respected life coaches, a bestselling author, and we’ve got a couple of the books on the table with us today, keynote speaker,

and mentor to athletes, CEOs and high performers. Shannah Kennedy, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (02:57)

Thank you for having me. It’s beautiful to be here.

DI GILLETT – Host (03:00)

Shannah, before we start, I’d like to get into a little bit of your origin story because I think you’ve had your own setback that really framed what your comeback would be. Could we start there? Because you had a high-flying career as a sports manager and somewhere along the line you hit the wall. What happened?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (03:24)

I certainly did. I don’t know if any of the listeners out there have married their job before, but that’s what I did. ⁓ I was in my 20s. I had the most incredible job. was the full Jerry Maguire job. You know, there was athletes. I was working for a wonderful brand. My job was to buy and sell the athletes, to do all the sponsorship deals.

Sport is always on the weekend, so great. Every weekend was full, flying around watching sporting events, but never took any time off. So basically, full-time marriage into the job, loved it. Had a lot of friends because I had lot of free passes to places. I had a lot of free things to give away and a lot of money to give away. So my life was really superficial.

although I didn’t see that at the time, it was just full excitement. Sort of like if you are an elite athlete, things aren’t quite normal. And anyway, I just did not see the warning signs. I did not want to see the warning signs. So, you know, when your body starts to talk to you and you get the headache, you get the sore bones, you’ve got to force yourself to go to work a little bit.

DI GILLETT – Host (04:38)

Explain it away though, that’s the trouble.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (04:41)

Yeah,

you do. You create great stories to support yourself and your sabotaging lifestyle. I was also trying to do triathlons myself. I was trying to have relationships and everything was just crumbling around me until one day I just couldn’t get up. I actually could not get through the concrete. And I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue and that was 30 years ago.

DI GILLETT – Host (05:08)

Yeah, and we don’t talk about that a lot, but it was something that so many people hit through HSC studies and those sorts of things. So how long did that…

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:21)

That

was full adrenal burnout. That was a year in bed, a year. A year in bed. Not able to drive, can’t concentrate, can’t turn the lights on, it hurts my eyes. Couldn’t turn the radio on or the TV on because it would hurt my ears. Everything was just fried. Think of everything being fried. Then the huge realisation was, who am I without my job? There was no emails. There was no phone calls.

DI GILLETT – Host (05:26)

Yeah

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:49)

There was nothing. There was silence. The company were great. They held my job. But it was a horrible realization that I actually hadn’t created a person who went to work. I just created my title. So I was actually lying there thinking of our elite athletes and what happens to them when they go from hero to zero, sometimes overnight, you know, when they do their ACL or they get dropped from the team or.

Who is Dusty Martin without Richmond Football Club?

DI GILLETT – Host (06:20)

Nobody

seems to care about the person, they care about what impact it has on them as a fan.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (06:26)

Exactly. But we need to be a person first who plays football for that team or goes to that job and then gets off that ride and is still a full person. So it was a real gift in the end because I actually in that time really thought about all of the athletes that I had worked with. I saw all of the destruction post sport, which nobody cared about back then because it was the early 2000s.

Well-being wasn’t a word, mental health was not a word. It was go hard or go home. So I actually got myself a coach ⁓ to coach me back to unlearn all of my bad habits, to unlearn the I need to use hard work as a badge of honour and relearn a much more sustainable way.

of being a high performer without the burnout and having a life as well. So it’s a very exciting time, even though very challenging, incredibly painful chronic fatigue. Your bones are like broken. It feels like you have had the biggest night on the town.

DI GILLETT – Host (07:27)

What does it feel like?

without the fun.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:34)

without any fun. It’s like the worst hangover but also your bones feel like they’ve been punched so it feels bruised so it’s extremely painful. I don’t think people talk about that very much. It’s not just I’m a bit tired, So that ended up in a big depression because I actually didn’t know who I was.

DI GILLETT – Host (07:49)

No, it’s more than that.

You lost your identity.

Ouch.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:59)

Yeah, at 30. At 30. That’s early. That’s early to have a crisis like that.

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

Indeed it

And that overachievement junkie pursuit which you would have had, and you would have been surrounded by people with that because they were high performers and killer instincts and strive to win and wins the only thing. And you would have had it in your DNA because you were competitive sporting wise in your own right.

So how much of it was about being an overachievement junkie and how often do you see that in the people that you coach now?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (08:42)

Well, I still see it in myself. I think it is. And I think if you are a driven woman and you have that achievement, you know, I’m not happy unless I’m achieving sort of mentality, it doesn’t go away, but you can make a healthier version of it.

DI GILLETT – Host (09:00)

That was going to be my question because what makes you great is what brings you undone. So how do you balance that?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:06)

There’s

a balancing act. So now my achievement is not, did I sell 10,000 books yesterday? Although that’s very nice. It is, what did you do to care for the asset which is yourself? So that she doesn’t burn out, so that she does have balance. Did you set a boundary? Did you do your breath work? Did you do the three M’s to start your day, which is make my bed, move my body, mindfully breathe? Do the pacing stuff.

Did I do three breaths every time I wash my hands today? That paces me through the day so I don’t burn.

DI GILLETT – Host (09:43)

You’re that, you’re doing that every day. And I did that before we started recording this morning. So I did the three, four, five breathing just to centre.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:45)

Yeah,

center. So that’s athlete mentality. I mean we watch it all the time. We’ve just watched the grand final. We see people breathing. We see Olympians just preparing themselves with breath. Breath is your first skill to go and really master. So I see it as the Gatorade stations in the marathon of the day. So every time you do that conscious breathing you ⁓ just give yourself a moment to ground yourself.

That’s like stopping at the Gatorade station before you carry on for the next 5k’s of the day. I teach a lot of my clients, especially women, how to pace themselves because they are trying to do everything all at the same time.

DI GILLETT – Host (10:40)

And particularly midlife women because that sandwich generation piece of you’re managing all ends of the spectrum. Yes. Coming up behind you, those who’ve gone before you.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (10:51)

Yes, and we’re in a crisis at the moment because women have never been in this position before. We’re actually at the top of our careers in our mid-50s. We’ve really got to partner. We’ve developed incredible businesses. Unfortunately, we had kids later, so our kids are still at home. They haven’t gone. And our parents are still with us because they’re living longer. And at the same time, our body is changing.

DI GILLETT – Host (11:12)

Incinerate

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:19)

It’s a perfect storm and it hasn’t been there in any other generation. Because the generations before, the grandparents didn’t live as long. The kids moved out at 20. Now they’re staying home. ⁓ And by the time you’re in menopause, your career was sort of finished. So we’re in really uncharted waters. Yeah, it’s an interesting But I think it’s exciting.

DI GILLETT – Host (11:41)

So with that in mind, are the majority of your female clients midlife women?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:49)

No, I have women, men, I have retiring men, retiring women in their 60s, 70s. I have young people in their 20s starting. And everyone wants a plan.

They haven’t got a plan. So if you haven’t got a plan, it’s like driving around the roundabout. When you have a plan, it’s like, we know which direction we’re driving on the GPS. So even if it’s a short-term plan, the brain is really comfortable as soon as it knows where it’s going. So we do need a plan, which we plan in pencil, because there’s always change. We need to get comfortable with change. ⁓ And when you do have that plan in pencil, you can enjoy the ride.

DI GILLETT – Host (12:31)

That point about pencil is a fascinating one because I still keep a day book as a running sheet of what I’ve got to do. ⁓ And I love writing. I have a creative style of writing that comes from my fashion design background and I physically like writing. And for years I always used a beautiful Lamy pencil because I could

change it and it’s only in recent years that I’ve actually moved into writing with a rollable pen and I wonder whether there’s a conscious switch in going from pencil can change it to feeling clear enough that I’m going to put it down in pen and stick with it.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (13:18)

think pen is amazing. I think pencil is for long term. So if we’re thinking about your 10 year older version of yourself, which is your role model, of course, is you, your best friend in 10 years time. You put that age to it, so I’m 55, so I’d be 65. So I would be planning in pencil because I don’t know what curve ball is coming my way. But I’m planning in pencil on, you know, what are the life experiences that I want.

What experiences do I want with my husband, with my kids, with my friends, all different ones? I might be planning in how I want to feel. More agile, stronger. Okay, what can I do today? Where do I want to be financially so I know what I need to do today and why I’m not going to go to the sale and buy some more towels because we’ve got enough towels just because I really like them or more stationary because I love stationary. I’m serving her.

I am serving her, I’m working for her, that’s my life plan. So I know why I make decisions today is for her because I don’t feel like going for a walk when it’s cold and windy here in Melbourne, but I’ll get up and go for her because she’s saying thank you, keep moving, keep moving or get to yoga, I want you to be agile. So I have this trainer in my brain who is to me

DI GILLETT – Host (14:37)

speaks to you in third

SHANNAH KENNEDY (14:40)

from my life plan because this is how I want to feel and this is what I want to experience and this is what I want to learn.

DI GILLETT – Host (14:50)

And I’m thinking what you said, and I think it was after turning 60 that I probably went from pencil to rollable pen. I wonder whether there was something in that.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:02)

Well, deep confidence comes when we know which way we’re going and how we want to feel and what we want to experience. That’s confidence. Because you’re living your plan, not somebody else’s plan.

DI GILLETT – Host (15:14)

I think I just got analysed on the

So you talked about your own setback being a gift and it was a turning point for you. So for those listening who are in the middle of a hiccup or a setback, how can they start to see the hidden opportunities in what feels like a crisis?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:45)

It always feels like a crisis. It’s like you just fell off your bike. It’s a crisis. It hurts. It’s horrible. You sit there. Your confidence is completely stripped and you’re sitting in the gutter and it’s a horrible place to be. And the first thing we need to do is breathe. The first thing you do to a child is catch your breath.

We’re not going to talk about it yet. We’re going to catch your breath. Ground yourself. Okay, now we’re going to slowly stand up and then we’re going to make a plan and we’re going to jump back on the bike. It’s the same. We need to go through a beautiful process and not just react. We need to ground ourselves first. We need to think about how that felt.

What am I learning from this? And the learning might not come till later. Certainly in the middle of chronic fatigue, I did not think it was a gift. But it opened doors for me that I would never have seen. It’s also allowed me, or I have chosen to see it as the gift to live wide awake and with intention. So mindfulness, breath work, all of those soft skills, which I did not possess before I had to bring in, and they became the guide.

Like taste the coffee. I’m so happy I have a bed with a doona. You know, I’ve got a car that works. Let’s go down to the little things. And so I actually feel like I’ve had a very grateful life because I’ve focused on the small things.

DI GILLETT – Host (17:12)

What would be the difference do you think had you not hit the wall if you’d kept going?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (17:17)

Well, it isn’t until you lose everything.

friends, your so-called friends, your identity, your body, that you appreciate small things. So I think if I hadn’t I would still be the A-type overachieving junkie who probably would have blown up her marriage and not felt anything and not been present for her children or maybe not pivoted the right way and just reacted all the way along like a bouncy ball and probably got to midlife ready for a massive crisis.

DI GILLETT – Host (17:49)

And that’s probably what we see with a lot of these relationships and characters who blow up. You know, it’s the guy going and getting the sports car. It’s the marriage breaking up at 50 when you think you should just be settling in and starting to plan post-children and enjoy yourself. It’s all of those things coming to that crux.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (18:15)

It’s

always the people who haven’t done any work on themselves. So they have been addicted to achievement the whole way through. They have maybe got to partner or had a great career, but everything around them.

is incredibly unstable. again, they put all of their eggs into their title and didn’t build the human. And that’s why we need a life plan, which brings in a career plan and a financial plan and a health plan, but it’s actually your life. How do you want it to unfold? Get in the driver’s seat and out of the passenger seat. So a lot of them, I think, have just been maybe just too one-eyed and it’s just life is not like that.

DI GILLETT – Host (18:57)

I think that’s right. Well coming up, what to do when setbacks hit and how to manage your comeback. If you’re loving the POWER OF WOMEN podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

Shannah, before we went to a break, you made a really interesting point. You said we put all of our energy into our title and not into us as a human. How prevalent is that in the marketplace?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (19:34)

enormous because that’s where a lot of women value themselves and their confidence. They don’t value the small things, they only value the title. And when the title is taken away, what’s left? We need to have built the human being who gets on the ride, whether that be at Macquarie Bank or

the business that they’ve built, it doesn’t matter what it is, but you need to be able to step off and be the human. It’s just a ride. It’s just a ride in the playground, your job.

DI GILLETT – Host (20:06)

So how do you take somebody on that journey to draw the distinction? Because if I’m an achievement junkie and my title of partner has been the pinnacle of my career, I’m there, it defines me. How do you encourage me to think of me as an individual in the bigger picture?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (20:27)

Well, the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. So that’s when they say, okay, I’m open to working on it now, because they can’t answer that one question. And it’s a really important question is to know who you are and what’s important to you outside of your job. And what are you doing to feed that consciously, consciously?

DI GILLETT – Host (20:52)

So we’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world. What’s the non-negotiables in a recovery plan to come back from one of those setbacks?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (21:20)

Well, that’s why I wrote Plan B. Because it was about navigating and embracing change. And after 20 years of coaching people through change, I thought, I’m just going to put it into a simple format for people. For what happens in your brain is we get the curve ball, it comes, it’s lemons, it hurts, it’s falling off your bike, it’s the redundancy, it’s, ⁓ you know, I had a cancer diagnosis, ⁓ my partner passed away, or my…

mother passed away or it just can be a range of things you know a business partner blindsided you. The first thing that we have to do is just respond and we can’t respond until we’ve taken a breath. We’ve acknowledged all of our feelings. We’ve created a narrative that works for us to tell other people when other people corner us what happened with your marriage you know.

You want to shut that down pretty quickly because that goes into a whole rabbit hole. So you have to have your elevator pitch ready. ⁓ And then you just respond with grace. You just respond with grace. Then you need to recover. So we need to take the time to recover. We need to think about,

What are the self-care things that I need to do to just refuel my tank, whether it be physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? We need to take a little time, a little gap, instead of just jumping straight back on the bike, a little gap to…

DI GILLETT – Host (22:48)

Achievement

junkies. So how do you encourage me not to go? I’m just going to get back into it and keep busy.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (22:55)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curveball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

So that’s where we start. And once we’ve done a bit of recovery and we’ve had a bit of time off and we’ve just settled ourselves, we go into, know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or…

move forward with your health, ⁓ we need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world. Yes, let’s radiate again. Let’s come, jump on the bike. Let’s take off again and have another go. But there’s quite a process to get there. And the people that don’t go through those stages,

⁓ always fall again and again and again.

DI GILLETT – Host (24:15)

And is that what your personal coach took you through when you hit the wall? And how long do you think the reset took?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (24:19)

Mmm, 100%.

I would say at least two years. And then I studied coaching to open my own business to coach athletes into retirement. That was before anyone had heard of a life coach. So think I was one of the first qualified ones in Melbourne 25 years ago. And it started with athletes, then it went into business athletes, I call them, and then life athletes.

DI GILLETT – Host (24:51)

And I get that I come from a family of elite athletes and my brother was an elite athlete and he tragically lost his wife Amy Gillett when the Australian cycling team was struck by a car in Germany. Why I tell the story in this setting is Simon was still thinking like an elite athlete in his approach of how he was going to manage his grief. And I can remember him.

going hard, keeping busy. He was flying here, he was flying there, he wasn’t acknowledging what had happened. And then out of the blue, he got the hiccups. And I don’t mean an occasional hiccup, I mean 24-7. You can’t eat, you can’t drink, you can’t sleep. The hiccupping was constant. And after about five days, he was broken. Absolutely.

broken, his body took over. So it’s, isn’t it interesting as to how if you don’t take the decision, the decision like your chronic fatigue for you.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (25:51)

His body took up.

Yeah, your body will take over.

Absolutely. And the grief cycle is huge. And it can last forever. Forever. doesn’t go away. So I put that in the book as well. we don’t get taught all of this at school. No. We don’t get taught anything at school except get a great ATAR and go to university. And that’s it. Full stop.

DI GILLETT – Host (26:24)

Do you

SHANNAH KENNEDY (26:28)

Yes, 100%. I think they are bringing wellbeing in now, is great. It’s a small introduction. But a lot of these life skills, if you’re not a reader or I suppose now it’s much easier listening to podcasts, you can learn these skills. That was never around before. Nobody talked about all of this before. Grief was shoved under the carpet. Don’t go near that person. ⁓

the book was written in COVID, it came to me at two in the morning, like a Jerry Maguire moment, and I just got up and went, know the exact pathway.

DI GILLETT – Host (27:06)

And

so Plan B was your first… Number six. But the context.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:08)

book. No, that was number six.

The

context of it. Yeah, exactly.

DI GILLETT – Host (27:16)

Brilliant. So for a high performer listening to this podcast, what are some really practical strategies for them to prevent the next crash and to build a more sustainable comeback?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:28)

Beautiful. think especially for women who are listening to this, is, you know, we are these incredible human beings. We really are.

DI GILLETT – Host (27:41)

we don’t say so ourselves.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:43)

Yeah,

and I’m just going to shout that from the rooftop. We are incredible human beings and we need to protect the ascent. We need to put kid gloves around ourselves a little bit and listen to the body because the body will take over otherwise and things happen to us. So we do need to think about filling the oxygen tank before the mask. We do need to think about if I’m going to be a high performer like an athlete, I need to have high performance recovery.

And athletes do. They have incredible recovery protocol. We need to as well. And making that your part of your career is what is my recovery. You know, for me, it’s massage, acupuncture, Chinese herbs. It’s constant. It’s been going for 25 years with no burnout. Raising the family, looking after the parents, writing books, traveling the country, speaking on stages and coaching people.

DI GILLETT – Host (28:39)

burner.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:42)

None. My recovery is so important to me. So important. I will go and have a 20 minute sleep in the middle of the day.

DI GILLETT – Host (28:50)

because you can

read when you need to do it and you can respond rather than…

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:54)

You know, back-to-back presentations, for example, I will book a boardroom and go and lie down with my legs up the wall for half an hour. Yeah, there you go. treat yourself like a high-performing human because you are one. And high-performing humans and athletes really focus on recovery, just as much as performance. And that could be your rest protocol, your sleep protocol. Your exercise protocol. know, the way you move, the way you hydrate, the way you fuel your body. ⁓

treat it like an elite athlete because that’s what you are. You are managing so many different areas in life and everybody needs you.

DI GILLETT – Host (29:32)

Yeah, that’s great advice. Thank you. What’s the most significant challenge women are facing today and what do we need to do about it?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (29:41)

I think there’s two. One is we’re in the crisis of ⁓ managing so many different areas of life all at the same time. Menopause, adult children, aging parents, top of our career. It’s enormous. I think it’s a huge load that women have never had before. ⁓ The other one is comparisonitis. I think social media.

It actually is destroying a lot of women’s confidence where they don’t feel seen, they don’t feel heard. They’re comparing themselves to someone else’s shopfront, which might not be like that behind the scenes. And it’s really affecting their confidence. And so they are feeling a little invisible maybe because they’re distracted. It’s like if you’re in a running race and you’re running perfectly well and you start looking sideways.

What happens to your run? You lose momentum. So every time we’re stuck in comparisonitis we’re losing momentum. And I think it’s a huge problem at the moment, especially while we’re in the whole storm of managing everything else.

DI GILLETT – Host (30:51)

That’s such an important word. I’ve heard it said recently and it’s relatively new to my vocab, but that is such an incredibly powerful one.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:04)

Comparisonitis

DI GILLETT – Host (31:07)

hard to say.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:08)

Very hard to say, but think of it as an athlete. If an athlete is comparing themselves to somebody else, they’re always going to feel.

If they’re focused on themselves and their 10 year plan, they’re going to be excited, motivated, pumped and looking for new people to bring in to surround themselves with the right people. The minute we’re looking sideways we lose all momentum. So I think social media you have to have a boundary on.

DI GILLETT – Host (31:40)

So if I think of that as a term, I think that’s probably a term that derailed me in my 30s and didn’t really stand into my own power until in my 40s because I had a couple of powerful friends around me and I was living vicariously through them, not being true to myself. So I think that is a…

The existed long before social media.

SHANNAH KENNEDY (32:12)

⁓ it did, it did. And that’s why people need a plan. If you have your own vision board up and your own words up on the mirror that really work for you and you are solely committed to enjoying your life, not someone else’s, your life, how can I make today great for myself? What can I be grateful for? What’s my challenge today? Can I breathe today? Did I move my body today? Did I do all the things to serve this asset?

Life’s pretty exciting.

DI GILLETT – Host (32:43)

Yeah, brilliant. Shannah, thank you I am going to start putting more emphasis on me as the asset rather than me being the last down the line. Good idea. think that’s a must. How can somebody find you if they’re looking to engage yourself?

SHANNAH KENNEDY (33:00)

Amazing. Well, that can go to my website, shannahkennedy.com. There’s lots of free resources, free screensavers to keep you on track, free downloadable vision board kits so that you can start your own vision board. Fantastic. All on the website. yes, I do one-on-one coaching. I do workshops for corporates.

DI GILLETT – Host (33:13)

and a number of these books that you

busy and you’re not burning out. Well done, you. Fantastic. Well, I think that is such ⁓ a truckload of messages that Shannah has delivered today. But I think if we do take the approach of treat ourselves as the asset, rather than the inevitable that can keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, and we’re not breakable, because that would be wrong. are in fact likely to burn out, to

to exhaust ourselves, to run ourselves down, and nobody, including ourselves, are going to benefit from that. And I know I have been guilty of it. I’m sure you have been guilty of it. So share this episode with a friend to make sure we treat ourselves as the asset we deserve. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Find Shannah at:

Website https://shannahkennedy.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannah-kennedy-8a898b1/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shannahkennedy/

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George Donikian | Love, Reinvention & The Power of Partnership

by admin | Nov 3, 2025 | Ageism, Female Entrepreneur, Mentor, Podcast For Women

For the first time, I swap chairs with my husband, renowned broadcaster and Executive Producer Of the Power Of Women Podcast, George Donikian, for a rare, deeply personal conversation about love, reinvention, and the power of partnership.

From SBS World News to Network Ten, George has shaped Australian media for more than four decades. A multicultural pioneer, mentor, and trusted voice. But this time, the spotlight turns on our shared journey: the highs, the heartbreaks, and the meaning behind our symbolic spiritual number, 333.

Together, George + I explore what it takes to stay visible, relevant, and connected – in both life and work – through the lens of reinvention, vulnerability and truth in storytelling.

You’ll hear us talk about:

➜ The fear of personal identity and finding confidence in front of the camera.

➜ How letting go of perfectionism, of sugar, of control – can transform your identity.

➜ The parallels between media and podcasting: storytelling, listening and truth.

➜ Ageism in broadcasting and why visibility still matters for women and men alike.

➜ The power of partnership – in life, in work and in love.

George said:

“Giving it up is an incredibly big deal.”

“Listening is key.”

“The truth is the first casualty in war.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT (00:03)

I just didn’t present in the manner in which I wanted to. But seriously, how common has that been in your experience? You’ve worked with a lot of women in front of the camera. Is that an unusual thing for you to hear?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (00:06)

Isn’t that amazing?

No, no, in truth if I reflect on all my team members, my colleagues and on-air partners that ⁓ I’ve shared the screen with, I can remember very early on, again, there was a…

desire for them to be happy with what they saw and I understand that. I can remember the first time I saw myself on camera and my then boss Bruce GYngell said to me I’m going to give you something brand new. So I had just started or about to start my television career and I’m presented with a beta camera recorder. He gave it to me so I could get comfortable.

with myself on screen and that I could, he knew that I had enough critic in me to will myself to get out of any bad habits.

DI GILLETT (01:18)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the POWER OF WOMEN Podcast. I love that this is a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. Today, however, I’m going to be putting myself in the spotlight because we’re going to change this up a little bit. So for the very first time, the executive producer, George Donikian, who is also

my husband is joining me in the studio today. And there’s a lot to talk about through a serious lens of reinvention, partnership, and the power of storytelling. And I’ve learnt much of that from the man sitting opposite me on the desk today. And as a partner in life for 20 years to find ourselves working together,

for the first time in our careers is really quite something. And I know a lot of people when you say, could you work with your partner, they’d say they couldn’t do it. I have to say this is the best career I have ever had. So without any further ado, George Donikian, welcome to the POWER OF WOMEN podcast.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (02:34)

What a pleasure to finally share a microphone on POWER OF WOMEN I know how important it is and has been for you over the past year. I want to commend you. I think it’s been extraordinary watching your growth because I can remember a time, it wasn’t that long ago, when I asked you to comment on a particular

program I was running at the time, I think it was called the Insiders or something, or the Informer. Informer. And there was a particular topic that you had great expertise in. It was about a new idea that you were pursuing with a couple of girlfriends. was called Partenaire. And I remember saying to come on, come and talk to me about it and we’ll shoot the breeze. And no, no, when you offered up one of your girlfriends, who did a fabulous job. you, Kim.

DI GILLETT (03:17)

Didn’t go so well did it?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (03:24)

a tremendous job. But you sat back and I kept thinking to myself, why? So why was it then? What was it that curtailed you? hey, I’ve

DI GILLETT (03:30)

froze.

⁓

That’s only three years ago. Yeah, that’s a very good question.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (03:42)

I’ve been watching you and not only am I very proud, but I’ve always worked

DI GILLETT (03:50)

Did

I mention he’s my number one cheerleader?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (03:53)

I’ve always worried that if I ever unleashed the beast in you, that ferocious work ethic that you have, if I could ever unleash it and let it do something that it was passionate about, you’d be uncontrollable. And here we are.

DI GILLETT (04:09)

But it’s an interesting point and I like to just explore that for the purposes of our listeners because it plays into ⁓ what I talk about ⁓ when I write in my newsletter on LinkedIn, Power of Reinvention. So I have been accustomed to talking to rooms of people, being on stage talking business.

know my subject matter expertise could talk while I’m underwater. But in all of those settings, I’d have a microphone but not a camera. And I think that that particular day where we went in to do a piece to camera ⁓ for ⁓ what was one of my failed startups with some friends, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I didn’t like the way the camera saw me.

Now that was also before I gave up a 58-year addiction with sugar. And I photographed very differently, and I personally in my eyes presented very differently pre-sugar and post-giving up sugar. And so it wasn’t so much that I didn’t have the

the language and the knowledge of what I wanted to speak about, I just didn’t present in the manner in which I wanted to.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (05:44)

You didn’t like what you saw. Isn’t that amazing? Because that wasn’t a challenge ⁓ for me in that studio. I kept thinking, you look fabulous. Mind you, you look extraordinary now. Benjamin Button, eat your heart out. You do, but you also were…

DI GILLETT (05:46)

I hated what I saw.

⁓ I look younger now than I

GEORGE DONIKIAN (06:09)

very very fashionable woman who knew how to carry herself and always you’ve always known how to style yourself even from was it four five or six years of age and I remember one of those stories your mother said to me oh yes she ruined many a dress I’m so she was telling the truth mm-hmm yeah you always did know what you

DI GILLETT (06:29)

Yeah, so ⁓ and I had no issue with what I was wearing on that day but the perfectionist in me did not like what I saw in the monitor of the camera and I didn’t want to go to air that way. It was debilitating.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (06:45)

Had I known that we would have cut sugar.

DI GILLETT (06:47)

So giving it up. Well, giving it up is an incredibly big, big deal. am now moving into my third year sugar free, cold turkey, zero processed sugar. And if you haven’t tried it, just give it a nudge for a couple of weeks and see what it feels like. Cause it’s a game changer.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (07:08)

There

you go. So you have reinvented yourself.

DI GILLETT (07:12)

I have. I have in so many ways, both professionally and ⁓ personally.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (07:20)

So it wasn’t imposter syndrome that could tell your opportunity to talk to the camera. was you simply not liking what you saw. Okay. I’ll keep that in mind.

DI GILLETT (07:36)

But seriously, how common has that been in your experience? You’ve worked with a lot of women ⁓ in front of the camera. Is that an unusual thing for you to hear?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (07:51)

No, no, in truth if I reflect on all my team members, my colleagues and on-air partners that I’ve shared the screen with, I can remember very early on, again, there was a desire for them to be happy with what they saw. And I understand that. I can remember the first time I saw myself on camera.

and my then boss Bruce Gyngell said to me,

I’m going to give you something brand new. It’s called a Betacam recorder. Now, we’re talking a long, long time ago, before they were part of what was available to the public. So I had just started or about to start my television career, and I’m presented with a Betacam recorder, which is the one that basically competed with the VHS recorders of the time. The Betacam was a better bit of technology.

⁓ But the marketing drive of the VHS team won the day. But I had one of very first beta camera calls. He gave it to me so I could get comfortable with myself on screen and that I could… He knew that I had enough critic in me to will myself to get out of any bad habits. So he wanted me to watch.

DI GILLETT (08:57)

Why did he give it to you?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (09:17)

every night’s news after the event and to decide or be very aware of nuancing. Because what we were doing was showcasing world news in a way that had never been done before. What we offered, that is the original SBS World News team,

It was something that shocked the marketplace. know our commercial rivals hated it. They couldn’t cope with it. They didn’t like what we were doing.

DI GILLETT (09:48)

But come back to the nuancing if we could: And we see it on air now and we debate about it over the dinner table as we watch news. I mean there is a way of introducing a story that has grief attached to it. There’s a way of introducing a story with brevity. There’s a way of introducing a story that’s joyful. All of those things are different.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (10:14)

Yeah.

DI GILLETT (10:15)

And the opportunity to play back and see yourself do that would have been incredibly helpful in understanding just what the nuancing to each of those stories might be.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (10:32)

It was exactly that. It allowed me to understand how to do a particular story. And I remember saying to one of my first producers, language is key. And he kept saying to me, it’s everything.

And one person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist. And we have this challenge now in this modern era of the media where there’s so much disruption, so much misinformation, and every word you use, every phrase, every utterance, you’ve got to be very aware of the complications that can be in the marketplace depending on how you say it. I say to people time and time again, you can say anything.

DI GILLETT (11:17)

Let’s dig into what makes a great interview. Is it a voice? Is it curiosity? Is it the ability to listen or is it something else? I’ve been interviewing people on the other side of the desk for 30 years to draw out their story in an executive search setting. Is it the same?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (11:38)

In order to draw out that information that you seek, you’ve got to listen. People will tell you a lot about themselves.

DI GILLETT (11:49)

I find people tell me things

GEORGE DONIKIAN (11:50)

You

hide between the marshes, so to speak. So it’s not what they tell you, it’s what they don’t tell you and what you’ve got to find, what you’ve got to seek, what you’ve got to discover. And it’s the way you pitch in and ask the questions that will open, that may open a pathway or a window or a portal that will get to the next chapter of the story. Do you find people… me, listening. Listening is key.

DI GILLETT (12:17)

Do you find people tell you things that they didn’t intend to tell you? Because I know that is something whether it’s in the setting of POWER OF WOMEN or historically in a boardroom setting interviewing somebody for a job. They end up disclosing something they didn’t need. What’s in that? How does that happen?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (12:37)

once you make someone comfortable and the discussion is one-on-one. Every interview is one-on-one and every time you’re on air you’re one-on-one.

DI GILLETT (12:51)

Explain that because you you’ve coached me in that it

GEORGE DONIKIAN (12:58)

Well, I’ve known the limits of my ability and I wasn’t ever going to you. She is Max’s daughter. ⁓ Your father was a fabulous man and we miss him every day. But he told me very early on, you’re not going to be able to tell her anything. And I’ve never really wanted to tell you. I’ve wanted to offer up stuff and hope that…

DI GILLETT (13:04)

Would she listen?

Yes you do.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (13:27)

And that’s not what everyone does, you’d like more people to learn by osmosis. They observe, they watch with great care. And the more care, the more ⁓ effort and work ethic you put into it, you’ll get more out. And I’ve always watched the very best

And I’ve had some terrific young men and women pass through my news journey and I’ve watched their careers blossom. And all of them, I’ve tried to give them the same sort of advice. And it just goes to show you how some people take it on board and embrace it. Some, no, no, some take it to another level. Yeah. And then others…

DI GILLETT (14:13)

Sometimes.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (14:18)

sort of, yeah, I think I know what I’m doing and their careers are fine.

DI GILLETT (14:23)

Did

you ever think you were going to coach me?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (14:26)

On our wedding party, I remember I offered up the microphone to you. And you were wise enough to say, I don’t want to be the news anchor here. Because you were. Because I was the news anchor. But you said, I’m very happy as the weather girl. And I thought, weather girl?

DI GILLETT (14:46)

That is how I gave our wedding speech. You were still on TV at the time and you took the microphone at our post wedding party to a large room and spoke. And I have always enjoyed the microphone but following on from you was not going to be the highlight of my day. So I thought the only natural way to follow after you was to do the weather.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (15:14)

Yeah, and you did well. I remember saying…

DI GILLETT (15:17)

said there’d be some stormy weather to come. Correct. There has been.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (15:21)

100 % right. 20 years together, we’ve had our challenges, we’ve challenged each other.

DI GILLETT (15:29)

few thunderstorms, in climate stormy days, lots of sunshine.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (15:35)

We’ve

grown through all of this and I think it’s very normal but I remember also you saying that you took a line out of one of my weather people at the time you said whether it’s just a forecast is never a promise. So here we are 20 years on and we’ve kept the promise to stick together and learn from each other.

DI GILLETT (15:57)

Yeah. Well, and that’s probably a good segue to talk about the power of partnership. And I never in my wildest dreams thought that I was going to be working with you or coming to work close within the industry that you’ve been in for the better part of 50 years. the industry has changed enormously.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (16:25)

continues to evolve.

DI GILLETT (16:26)

Yeah. But did you ever envisage we would have the ability to actually work together professionally?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (16:36)

I always thought if we could find a topic or a subject that we could immerse ourselves into. I thought what you were doing, the idea of partenaires, which was a great concept and something that you and your two girlfriends at the time… …offline dating. what I loved about it was that you showed me…

DI GILLETT (16:55)

our offline dating.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (17:02)

that you could take all the skills that you had garnered in your 30-year career as a headhunter and put it to good use, bringing people together, not just bringing super talent to a corporate organization. And I remember you saying to me, ⁓ one of the great challenges of bringing a CEO

And that was always what you were trying to do. You were bringing C-suite and above to different businesses that people would come to you and they’d say, we want a change of culture. And what I loved about what you did was you were forensic. You didn’t, and I remember you were adamant. You weren’t a recruiter.

DI GILLETT (17:45)

That’s a word that often is used to describe me, George, actually.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (17:49)

You weren’t a recruiter, nor did you recruit. You were a headhunter. And what that meant was you didn’t go out there and put out an ad and get 55,000 applications and weed or work your way through those. You would go not to find the best talent available. You always were.

DI GILLETT (18:07)

No went the reverse.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (18:16)

seeking the best talent. Whether they were in a job or out of the job, you would take them out of that job. That was the task. To entice them to leave where they were because you thought they were a better fit somewhere else. And it was that that allowed you to have the success that you had and also deliver some fabulous partnerships, bringing people out from all over the world to take on positions

DI GILLETT (18:42)

For anybody thinking about a career pivot and the power of reinvention, all of the skills that I garnered and acquired and honed over those 30 years are the skills that I draw on every day for the Power of Women and for the POWER OF WOMEN podcast because in the same way as I need to build a curated

guest list of who to bring to the studio to interview. I’m the client, but the brief is who do I believe my audience wants to hear from? What are the important messages of the day that would resonate with the POWER OF WOMEN podcast audience? And some of those people are referred to me in the same way as people would put their hand up to say I’m looking for a change of career, so it comes that way.

More often than not, my guest list is curated through me doing exactly the same as I would have done with an executive search of come up with a plan and then go to market as to who would be the best person to speak on behalf of that particular issue or topic or narrative. And then I go out and I approach them.

and garner their interest in actually being part of the podcast. And only one has said no today, and I haven’t given up yet.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (20:16)

persist persist persist something you’ve done all your life. You have a tremendous

DI GILLETT (20:24)

And keeping in mind where husband and wife, he could have used another word and that would have been a deal breaker. So persist is very good George.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (20:31)

Perhaps I could have used another word, but persist suits, because it’s to do with your drive, it’s to do with your work ethic. And the other thing I’ve learnt is you have an extraordinary capacity to learn. You want to teach yourself something, you’ve taught yourself how to edit, you’ve taught yourself how to produce, you’ve taught yourself to use technology that…

I’m struggling to master and that shows me a different level of involvement, a different level of… Yeah, curiosity’s entry level. We’ve gone well past that.

DI GILLETT (21:05)

curiosity and learning.

Well, thank you. Thank you. So how do we give each other space in working together? Why do you think it works?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (21:15)

That’s okay.

I think you have always respected my talent and my ability in my career. I’ve always been a champion of watching you deliver. That’s true. Over the years. I don’t think I can remember even when we had a personal tragedy, we lost someone very special to us, our late sister-in-law, Amy.

DI GILLETT (21:31)

I do. Enormous.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (21:52)

You were tasked by your brother who was in grief, who was shattered, and he had to go overseas to claim his wife’s body and bring her back. You were tasked with creating a funeral. And I remember you asking yourself, because you were saying it aloud, so where do I start? Not only did you do the funeral,

brilliantly, but you also came up with two state memorial services, one in South Australia, because that’s where her parents were and she was a South Australian girl originally, Amy Safe became Amy Gillett, and then we had one also in Ballarat, because that’s where she and Simon were living. So I remember watching you take that challenge from out of nowhere, and it was not something you had ever done before, but

You willed yourself, you armed yourself, you found the best people to deliver it. And if you reflect back, no, there was no playbook, no trigger warning as one of your podcasts, and she’s a remarkable woman and what a terrific.

DI GILLETT (23:02)

There’s no playbook for that.

And I rest

GEORGE DONIKIAN (23:14)

subject you had and what an enormous career and job she’s been doing for her community. again, ⁓ very, very, very proud, I think from day one watching you cope. And I shouldn’t have been surprised because I remember you did everything for our wedding. Yeah. We couldn’t go to Santorini because Amy had just passed.

DI GILLETT (23:37)

Mmm.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (23:44)

We didn’t want to challenge the family anymore. They were grieving. So we found a new way to have a wedding. we did it beautifully. And we had my daughter from a previous marriage, the lovely ⁓ Lauren, come up. And she was one witness. And your brother, Simon, was the other witness. And we had one other couple join us. They were told not to come. But they wouldn’t listen. They sounded like someone else I know.

just would not take any advice and they rocked up and you know made themselves part of our wedding party which was lovely.

DI GILLETT (24:22)

Probably should mention our connection around one particular number too.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (24:27)

yes, you’re talking about the number three. Well, you should recount that you did all the preparation for the wedding. We got up to the hotel at Port Douglas and just as we were about to check in on the honeymoon, yes, we got married at the Mirage Resort, ⁓ which

DI GILLETT (24:47)

on the honeymoon.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (24:57)

felt a bit like a mirage at the time. we went to, was it, Paul Douglas? No, Tom Cove for the honeymoon. And we arrived at our hotel and as we checking in, girl’s gone, you’ve been upgraded. And I looked up and there’s the card and there’s the number. Not just three, was three.

DI GILLETT (25:04)

palm cove

GEORGE DONIKIAN (25:25)

So that became our symbol.

DI GILLETT (25:28)

It did and it had been my symbol for years of identifying where my luck was turning when I needed a sign and I think I’ve told the story before where you mentioned I didn’t know quite what to do with the planning of the funeral and I woke up in middle of the night and I had a vision of Amy C. On the end of the bed and it was 3.33 in the morning and 3.33 has become this

GEORGE DONIKIAN (25:49)

You felt her presence very strongly.

DI GILLETT (25:57)

connection of mind that has become a connection between you and I now, where 333 becomes this powerful point and we note it quite often in the day. We quite often send each other a screenshot of our phone where 333 has come up and the quirky part of that is you’re my screensaver and I’m your screensaver as all good partners should be.

And this whole 3-3-3 resonance carries through our world.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (26:33)

We’ve been on holiday in Hong Kong and 333 recurring number.

DI GILLETT (26:40)

Turns up in the weirdest places. Where it shouldn’t be.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (26:42)

walked into a gift shop.

DI GILLETT (26:47)

and electronics, high tech electronics.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (26:50)

electronic

shop and sure enough there was this clock

DI GILLETT (26:54)

an old-fashioned clock, high-tech electronic store, every modern whiz-bang in store. I looked on the shelf and there was one of those old-fashioned clocks where the time clicks over on it and it’s like the tin number drops over. And I remember seeing it there and I pointed it out to you and I said to the guy behind the counter, I said,

GEORGE DONIKIAN (27:07)

And a head…three.

DI GILLETT (27:22)

Why is that there? And he said he’d never seen it before. It was there frozen on 333 and it wasn’t 333 time that we’d walked through the store, but there it was frozen in time, a 333. Very.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (27:25)

I’ve never noted it before.

Yeah, Eerie.

Maybe it was Amy who reminded us to have a good time.

DI GILLETT (27:40)

Maybe it was. Maybe it was. Well coming up I want to talk more about the media and the power of storytelling. If you’re loving the POWER OF WOMEN podcasts be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (27:59)

that you get a chance to sit together and mark a special occasion. A special occasion is our 20th wedding anniversary

DI GILLETT (28:10)

And it’s not that often that you get to do all the talking.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (28:13)

No, normally I leave it to the weather girl.

DI GILLETT (28:17)

Do you know, that reminds me George, when we… That’s a fabulous pair of lips on the screen behind us.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (28:24)

Correct. You should explain the weather girl.

DI GILLETT (28:27)

Well I should because when we first got married and we did a wedding party I was terrified, which is ironic given I now have a podcast, but I was terrified to take the microphone after you. And the reason was because you were still on air doing the news thing. So I decided the only credible way for me to speak up

GEORGE DONIKIAN (28:55)

was to become

with a girl.

DI GILLETT (28:56)

was

to become a weather girl. So… ⁓

GEORGE DONIKIAN (28:59)

But here we are, do know what? 20 years on and I’m now terrified to speak in your presence. Happy anniversary, bye baby.

DI GILLETT (29:05)

fantastic.

George, coming back out of this break, I want to talk about ageism and visibility. And I’ve spoken about it ad nauseam on the POWER OF WOMEN podcast, and I have written about it in my thought leadership pieces via LinkedIn as well. But I really want to talk about how it plays out in the media. And you’ve got deep, deep knowledge of this. When we think about age and gender,

How has that shaped your perspective of women in broadcasting?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (29:45)

Let’s look at gender for a moment and I’ll take you way back to my beginnings at SBS in Sydney at the brand new studios as they were then at Milson’s Point just next to the Sydney Harbour Bridge. And I can remember walking into the newsroom and it was filled with men. We had one woman and she was the director’s assistant. She was a firecracker. Fantastic talent.

and prove that because her career just continued to blossom as she moved through the next ten years and she ended up working for some of the biggest and best organizations on the planet. But when I started in late 1979, 1980 at SBS,

I can remember all these men and the one woman. By the time I left SBS, which was late 1988, just before the year would turn around and become 89, I was the lone man in the newsroom. So, had shown the media world that

DI GILLETT (30:53)

Is that?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (31:01)

News services didn’t have to be filled with men to ⁓ garner results, to create headlines, nor to achieve ratings. So I watched that transference and for me it was a joy. I never had a challenge, never had a problem with working for a man or a woman. And I never saw one as lesser than the other.

DI GILLETT (31:30)

Motion.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (31:31)

That wasn’t the collective view of the media space.

DI GILLETT (31:35)

Yeah,

so what was happening in the other free-to-air channels? Were there many?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (31:39)

I won’t name the networks because that’s not fair because the world’s changed and so have they. And it wasn’t what they were doing, was what management was doing at the time. But I can remember going to the then number one network who came in and headhunted me. I was headhunted from SBS to come and do a brand new national world news on a commercial channel which really appealed to me because they, for the first time I thought I’ll have

all the facilities I need, all the tools, all the ⁓ satellite coverage that I require to do the best possible job. It didn’t turn out to be the case for only one reason. The two principal people were headhunted within a year of my arrival by Murdoch and taken to Britain to help him out of a jam and how’s this for sheer

history. Two Australians from one end of the world who were continually told know nothing about football and that is the world game, the round ball code. And Sam Chisholm and David Hill who had done the marvelous work for the Nine Network creating the world of cricket that captured the imagination of the globe and changed the way cricket was covered and reported on forever.

Those two men went overseas and created the English Premier League, which has just celebrated 30 plus odd years of success and is the biggest sporting platform in the world. And then David Hill stopped what he was doing in Britain and went to America for Murdoch and helped to create Fox Sport and Fox News. So a couple of Australians who could have stayed with me.

chose to take on the world and were marvelous. But for me, it was again stepping into a newsroom filled with men. There were some women and very talented ones, but when you go from a newsroom that was basically only one male and it’s the one on air. Yeah. Because I was the news anchor Monday to Friday and our weekend newsreader at the time was Mary Kostakievis. And when she wasn’t available or on holiday, ⁓

Li Lin Chin ⁓ was the one who had come in to add yet another bit of diversity to multicultural television. And then I got the shock of my life, they sacked her. And I was shaken by that because I thought to myself, multicultural television has a role to play. And that was to give diversity an opportunity. And here they were in their infinite wisdom, new management team, thought she wasn’t going to fit.

And I thought, this is crazy. And then it coincided with Channel 9 coming to headhunt me. So I accepted the challenge and went to commercial television to prove my worth.

And I said to them, you better rethink your choice. And they went back and re-employed her. And the rest is history. So I’m delighted to have had a small part in that role. And then the news team basically at SBS after I left was all female. So there you go, all power.

Because their attention to detail, the ability to work together ⁓ is pretty well noted by all good management teams.

DI GILLETT (35:22)

Let’s stay on on-air talent as we see it today. Do you think ageism is present in what we see on air for men and for women?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (35:27)

Yes.

Present.

The end of my career effectively was 2012 when the management team at the time said, we have a decision between you and that person and we’re going to go with that person. I didn’t have a problem with that. They were probably 40 and I was closer to 60 I think.

DI GILLETT (35:48)

How old was that person?

Yeah. so you think, so as a male, did you feel at that time the decision to take you off air was about age?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (36:09)

It probably was a combination of, I was the newer arrival, they were a longer term member of that team. Albeit younger. were younger. ⁓ And ⁓ they probably didn’t cost as much. So you put all those ingredients together and that package becomes one that you can tinker with. And look, I got looked after to the best of the ability at the time, but it shook me in a way that I hadn’t imagined.

And I would liken it to the end of a football career, where you have to reposition yourself and ⁓ look to the next step of your development. And for me, the thing that helped me get through it was one, strength of my wife, who was in a corporate position and carried the can there, but also someone who gave me enough reason to keep looking and saying, just create your own business.

go out and do what you do and show others how they can do their job even better. So media training and all of that. And I also got to do over the next 12, 14 years things like I did a documentary ⁓ for SBS on Armenia. Now had I been behind the news desk, that opportunity would never have availed itself.

DI GILLETT (37:29)

So ageism is experienced on both sides of the divide in terms of gender. When you look at the screens today, what’s your view on the age of those on air? Do you think ageism is playing out in front of our eyes?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (37:45)

Absolutely, absolutely. We know it personally, we know it through friends and the pressure they’re feeling to continue to perform. Look, it’s always important to perform, right? But working in a newsroom or working in any space where you can feel not the sort of damocles, but you can feel a gentle arm on your shoulder saying, ⁓ it might be time. I don’t think that’s a healthy way to work.

We hear about toxic workplaces. The last thing you want, always, is to create a space where not only is it safe, but you walk in the door because you want to walk in the door. And I’m not talking about the people who stay, who work from home, ⁓ which is a whole new development for me. I can’t quite get my head around it, but I understand we’re in an evolving space with so much technology. And I remember

only recently saying to someone, we shouldn’t be surprised. The age of production or the industrial age covered about 200 years. This modern technology era that we’re going through, 2004, the iPhone, 2004, the pod,

the little pod, iPod. That was the beginning of you being able to carry your own material around.

DI GILLETT (39:24)

And now we’re carrying our TVs around.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (39:26)

Well, we’re carrying everything now. I was told by a very smart man, I said to him one day, are we going to have reporters with a camera everywhere they go? And he looked at me and he said, absolutely, that day will come. What he didn’t know was he didn’t look far enough forward, nor had he thought about the arrival of your own personal camera and microphone, high definition one.

and one that would be available to everyone. not only have we reached the stage where every journalist has their own camera, right, and props, but we have every person in the world. Now, it’s all well and good to have a professional with a camera because one, they know how to handle a camera. Two, they understand the responsibilities of publishing and the cost that comes with it. ⁓

But leaving it to just anyone to have that technology, well, all you unleash… Problems and propaganda. Stories need to be told in a manner, if you’re a professional, you need to tell the story that’s most representative of the facts. Not your story, not the one you think is the story, but the one that best represents what has happened.

DI GILLETT (40:31)

telling is

GEORGE DONIKIAN (40:50)

That is how you get to the nub of a real story. But today, we’re seeing an awful lot of opinion because people don’t have enough time to produce the story.

DI GILLETT (41:00)

We’re sharing opinion here. mean that’s what podcasting is. It’s stories.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (41:03)

We’re

sharing more than opinion. In this particular case, we’re adding a layer of knowledge and a layer of experience and helping to tell the story. just, I have an idea that, you know, we’re going to do this tomorrow. No, no, no, no, no. This is based on what we’ve seen, what we’ve experienced, and what we’ve seen illustrated time and time again. And as I say to people, you know, every time they ask me,

DI GILLETT (41:14)

Noted noted

GEORGE DONIKIAN (41:32)

⁓ What’s the biggest challenge in a very heavy news day? And I’d say to stay above the fray, not to allow yourself to be immersed in the emotion. Because as we’re found in war, what’s the first casualty? The truth. And yet, we hear people throw around figures and names as if they know. And I say to them, where did you get those numbers from?

DI GILLETT (41:47)

the truth.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (42:02)

⁓ they’re around. No, no, no, no. Where did you get them? And unless you can validate them, those numbers may well be the fanciful numbers you use for your next lottery ticket or your next phone. Yeah, because they’re not any value to anyone else. All they do is muddy the waters, raise the ire of people and stir emotions. And what we get is distortion. What we get is anger.

What we get is hate. And what’s it based on again?

DI GILLETT (42:36)

My opinion.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (42:38)

and not being able to tell the truth because in war, all those things are clouded for specific reasons. There are operational reasons you don’t tell the truth for the safety of your troops and for the safety of others. But clearly that’s not going to win too many fans and friends on the social media platform.

You stick to your guns as a professional and try always not to tell the story that suits you, but to tell the story that’s most representative of the facts. And those facts that you can validate. Can’t validate them? It’s just whimsy.

DI GILLETT (43:20)

Speaking of storytelling, and that is what the power of women is all about, how different is the power of storytelling today, do you think, through this lens being podcasting?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (43:37)

Again for me it’s exciting to watch professional women who have a passion to help each other. I’ve noted that the great many of the subjects that you’ve chosen from day one have helped you cover a particular topic of interest.

that resonates throughout the marketplace, whatever the subject matter was. You talked about, I can remember very early on in one of the ⁓ very early podcasts, you spoke about the imposter syndrome and how it’s carried itself on not only on one shoulder but on two shoulders to hold people down. And at various times in our lives, we all go through this imposter syndrome.

Whether it’s for a millisecond or is it for months or years. And I say to people, the more you work, the more you surround yourself with really good people, believe, have faith. And it’s like a high tide. It will raise the newsroom or it raise the room. It will raise the school or in your brother’s case, it raised his

rowing team to a world title. And they were so good at working as one. What did they do? They didn’t just win once. They kept winning. And if I reflect on the man who is your brother, what you cannot mistake.

is that when he says he’s going to do something, when he puts his mind to it, he does it, not he’s going to do it, he does it. he, it is DNA and I should have taken that on when I said,

DI GILLETT (45:33)

It’s called DNA George.

Did you

miss that? When you said I do?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (45:41)

I must have been swayed by something else. Maybe it was just your beauty.

DI GILLETT (45:47)

No, well I grew up in a household where there was no such thing as a thinly veiled threat.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (45:52)

No, correct. They wanted to create a hazard. You were right in middle of that hazard. But listen, if you think about it,

DI GILLETT (45:54)

It was a fact.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (46:08)

It’s held you in good stead, privately and publicly, and we’ll continue to do that because it’s that drive to be the best. It’s that drive to want to be even better than last year. You don’t sit on your laurels. You continue to want to make them better. And I’ve watched your reach to make sure that your technology, the grasp of technology,

is better each and every week, let alone each and every year. So you’re advancing this podcast in ways that very few people can.

DI GILLETT (46:46)

Thank you. As we come to a close today.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (46:50)

no, you’re curtailing our interview. dear.

DI GILLETT (46:53)

I am.

Is there something, and this is a bit like one of these game shows of, you know, what’s your partner’s favourite colour and you did it. But a little more depth. So what do you think is one thing people don’t know about me but should and I’m going to do the same for you?

GEORGE DONIKIAN (47:06)

This’ll be fun.

⁓ what is it they don’t know about you? ⁓ I think you have a heart of gold. I’ve discovered that you have a heart You went and had a test and the doctor said, yep, it’s there. I had to sit back and go, wow. So you have a heart of gold.

DI GILLETT (47:31)

I have one!

⁓

Wow, that’s a thought you want to leave them with. Thanks for that George. I’m not sure that you get to stay as my executive producer.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (47:48)

They see you as a strong woman. They’ve also got to understand there’s a golden heart there.

DI GILLETT (47:54)

Well, and my reflection is similar. I can remember being absolutely incensed a few years ago. ⁓ You’d been approached to be on a panel for International Women’s Day and there was one particular individual who decided to make a noise about the fact that whether you should or shouldn’t be there. And as it so often is the case, when somebody’s

making a noise, it’s typically about them, not about the person whom they’re talking about. And that was in fact the case. And my reason for pointing that out is I think it’s probably underestimated just how many people you have helped along the way on their journey in media. And in particular,

women helping them on their journey, but generously giving your time. And I’ve been the recipient of that because whether it’s been through osmosis or the gentle, you know, commentary in the background, because God forbid I didn’t sign up for one of your media training courses, but ⁓ you have been a great mentor, a great cheer squad.

and in fact a great partner.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (49:18)

Well, it fills me with a great deal of delight to hear that. But I’ve also got to say that I’ve had my early days where I demanded more from my on-air partners. And I probably rode them harder than I should have. But it was always wanting… Hello?

DI GILLETT (49:37)

Hindsight is a good thing.

There’s industries built on hindsight,

GEORGE DONIKIAN (49:41)

You’ve got to understand too, to arrive where I’ve arrived at today, it’s because I’ve learned from all those experiences in the past. So I say to people, don’t be so stuck in your way that there’s an intransigence, that’s a word that Paul Keating made famous.

DI GILLETT (50:04)

Not often you can’t say a difficult to say word George at your moniker.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (50:08)

It was case of reaching out and trying to find it again because some file in the back of my office space. But in transigence, your desire to stay rooted to a particular idea and a particular scheme or a particular fashion is not a healthy thing. In an evolving world, I think that’s the most important thing.

DI GILLETT (50:36)

And that is probably a great closing message because intransigence and the power of reinvention do not come together. No. So, but what I wanted to really highlight was the power of partnership. To think after 20 years of marriage, you and I can actually work together and we’re talking about some pretty exciting things coming up in the new year that we might be doing together.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (51:04)

Before you go any further, do you remember what we spoke about before we agreed to marry?

We both said we were better together than apart. That was the, I think, one of the biggest desires. We wanted to see that if indeed that was true, and we would be better together. I hate the term, but people say power couple. It’s not power couple. It’s about two people, two.

DI GILLETT (51:36)

Get thrown around a bit though.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (51:38)

It does get thrown around, but what I want to make very clear, it’s about equality. It’s about two equals pushing one another and helping one another to be better. And you’ve done it for me on a great many occasions. remember someone asked me, and someone said to me the other day, I love your dress sense. I said, well, that’s always nice to hear.

DI GILLETT (51:56)

done it for me continually.

GEORGE DONIKIAN (52:05)

I’ll pass it on, my stylist does all the heavy lifting. They went, what? I said, yes. Once upon a time, my wife used to style Steve Vizard to George Donikian. Now she has a much simpler task. She dresses George Donikian. So there we are.

DI GILLETT (52:17)

to protect the

Well, that’s probably a great point to finish on, but the power of partnership, the power of storytelling, the power of reinvention, but the power of partnership is really something else. Until next time.

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