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The Transformative Power of Wellness, Leadership & Permission to Pause

by admin | Oct 27, 2025 | Burnout, Female Entrepreneur, Female Podcast, Health & Wellbeing

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, host Di Gillett speaks with Lyndall Mitchell, the trailblazer who has shaped Australia’s wellness landscape for nearly three decades. From a 14-year-old doing work experience at Camp Eden to founding Aurora Spa and the award-winning ASPAR product line, Lyndall has dedicated her career to helping others refuel and reset.

She shares why wellness is not indulgence but a necessity, the warning signs of burnout, and the simple rituals that sustain leaders, parents, and entrepreneurs alike. This is a conversation about resilience, reinvention, and the power of small, consistent actions.

You’ll Hear:

➜ How a teenage work experience led to a life-long calling in wellness

➜ The vision behind Aurora Spa and why urban retreats were groundbreaking in Australia

➜ The four foundations of wellness: sleep, movement, nutrition, and digital detox

➜ Why women struggle to give themselves “permission to pause” without guilt

➜ Practical rituals to build resilience and prevent burnout

➜ Why Lyndall believes wellness should be part of healthcare, not just self-care.

Lyndall said:

It’s the small things you do every day that make the greatest difference.”

“Wellness is not something we master. It’s a practice we continually evolve.”

“Permission to pause isn’t a luxury, it’s the fuel for leadership, longevity and life.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

Your T📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (00:02)

You’re not alone. A lot of people are doing this and our sleep is what is the dishwasher for our brain. This is where we get our energy, this is where we refuel our tank but we refuel our brain. But we also refuel our self-regulation to be able to make great decisions. And so in the morning if you’ve had a terrible sleep and interrupted sleep, chances are you’re not going to eat well. You probably won’t move your body and you’ll probably spend more money. Now there’s evidence around that.

DI GILLETT – HOST (00:29)

You’re crazy.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (00:30)

So how do we be the protector of our sleep? Because there’s plenty of sleep robbers out there and our phones can be one of those. I’m Lyndall Mitchell and my values are health, family and economic security which ⁓ really gives me that freedom of choice later in life and my big belief is that it’s the small things in life that you do consistently that make the greatest change.

DI GILLETT – HOST (00:56)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that celebrates and showcases the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is an invitation to join the Power of Women community and follow us on every game changing, unfiltered conversation with these amazing women.

Today, I have the privilege to showcase the story of a woman who is the pioneer of the wellness sector in Australia. And she has lived and breathed it for more than three decades. Lyndall Mitchell is the founder of Aurora Spa, Australia’s first award-winning urban spa group. She’s also a coach, a speaker, author, and entrepreneur who has built a wellness ecosystem

designed to give her clients something many of us struggle to find, permission to pause. Her story is one of vision and an unwavering devotion to her clients, a devotion that sees her employ and empower nearly 50 women in the organization. And she guides executives through transformational change and inspires companies and individuals across Australia and globally.

So today in our conversation, we’re going to explore what it means to refuel your emotional and physical petrol tank. Why ignoring the signs of burnout comes at such a cost and how wellness is a necessity for leadership, life and longevity. Lyndall Mitchell, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (02:41)

Thank you, Di. It’s so wonderful to be here with your community.

DI GILLETT – HOST (02:45)

Thank

you. Lindle, you’ve been immersed in the wellness space for, as I said, almost three decades, or it might even be tipping over three decades, but since you were actually 14. Correct. So can you take us back to that experience of Camp Eden when you work experience from the neighbouring property and what you saw that really resonated and drew you into this industry?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (03:15)

I grew up next door to Australia’s first health retreat and at the age of 14 had the opportunity to do work experience there. And I already knew the staff because mum and I had a little banana stall down on the side of the road where you put money in the jar for the banana. And so we got to know the staff that worked at Australia’s first health retreat being Camp Eden. And so when I was 14, I did go there and do work experience.

And it really opened my eyes to these passionate, incredibly healthy humans that loved what they did. And you know, I saw my dad as a farmer, working every day, working hard. And whilst I think he enjoyed what he did, to see people that were this radiant health and passion with the joy they were getting out of working with guests, that’s what really inspired me. So that planted the seed when I was 14.

DI GILLETT – HOST (04:06)

Yeah.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (04:12)

Went back to living on the farm, had my own pet kangaroo.

DI GILLETT – HOST (04:15)

Ah, so did I. We could share a story. did. Wow. And a pet emu.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (04:20)

Okay, I need to know about that. Yeah, incredible, you know, ⁓ opportunity growing up. was such a beautiful 140 acres of tropical rain. The hint of like, you know, bananas, avocados, pawpaws were there as well. know, mum and dad lived the wellness lifestyle. And so that seed that was planted, I then wanted to explore that straight after I finished school.

DI GILLETT – HOST (04:32)

Beautiful

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (04:46)

So I went back when I was 18 and I spent the next five years working at Eden and really working my way up. Started in the lowest paying office position and I just said yes to every opportunity that came my way. Before you know it, I’m program coordinator, which means you have 50 guests coming in and you’re the host of that program. It’s a big deal. Yeah, and you take them through and you know, it’s a really privileged position because you get to see the guests coming in in all sorts of chaos.

DI GILLETT – HOST (05:06)

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (05:15)

you know, having had burnt the candle at both ends, physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, out of whack. And, you know, no matter what state of chaos they’re in, what I saw was wellness always gave them back that equilibrium. And so I would work 100 hours in one week when you’re there so you see every, you witness every moment.

DI GILLETT – HOST (05:36)

doesn’t sound like equally room at your end.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (05:38)

Correct. That’s why it’s not forever. And then you have a week off. A week on, week off. Okay. So you’re there for the entire guest experience and for me that solidified my belief in wellness because I just saw that it worked so well and you know 35 years ago it was considered a bit woo woo or a bit left to feel a bit hippie but now there’s enough evidence. Thankfully science has caught up and there’s enough evidence to say there is value in wellness and

DI GILLETT – HOST (05:41)

Yeah

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (06:07)

how it can bring you back from that state of chaos and really help you to move forward. the five years I had immersing myself in that incredible environment was just a very steep learning curve for me. You know, certainly challenged my work ethic, you know, in really working that hard. And I guess it then planted the next seed for me was we cocoon our guests in this incredible experience. And, you know, they come out feeling

amazing and this sense of equilibrium and reset and clarity. But what next? Where do they go to from here? And if you think back sort of your 30 years ago,

DI GILLETT – HOST (06:42)

Mmm

Well I know where it sits because you just go back and start the chaos journey all over again.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (06:53)

Yeah, and that’s what I witnessed. And so that didn’t sit that comfortably with me because for me wellness is not one week of the year. is a way of life. But what are we missing here? Because guests are leaving in this amazing place but then they’re actually not able to integrate this into their world. And when I looked into it, there just weren’t the resources available for them.

DI GILLETT – HOST (07:03)

Yeah

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (07:20)

No, it wasn’t there at that point in time and it wasn’t easy. So I really understood that and that planted the next seed for me which was, imagine if I could create an urban retreat where those guests could continue on with what they’ve learned and actually thrive rather than fall off the wagon. And so, yeah, 28 years ago, I moved to Melbourne. 50 % of our guests were Melbourne, 50 % Sydney.

DI GILLETT – HOST (07:40)

Yeah.

Which is that saying something about the stress catheters? ⁓

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (07:55)

and came up with the concept that I would start Aurora Spa and it was going to be that urban destination to support our guests for the long term.

DI GILLETT – HOST (08:06)

anybody else offering that in the marketplace at that point in time?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (08:10)

No spas in Australia. ⁓

plenty in Europe and plenty in the US but none in Australia. So what year? 1997.

DI GILLETT – HOST (08:17)

Where are we, Linda? We’re

97 and no spas in Australia. Both are.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (08:22)

So there was rapid growth after that,

but yeah, there were no spas at that point in time. it was a concept that really needed some education around it as well. People were like, are you building bathtubs with bubbles? Like what is a spa?

I was very clear on the vision I wanted to create. didn’t want to be the destination retreat because I fully believe and still believe that there’s such value in going away once a year to really invest in your health in a retreat where you do have that health environment. You’re immersed in it. And I wanted to be the reset. I wanted to be that little reset that you come back to.

I knew that I wanted to create this environment that guests could come to us for 60 minutes or for a whole day. And from that, they can get that refuel to continue on and keep achieving all the things they want to achieve in their life. that was how we commenced. And then in time, did travel. I actually did a trip where I did 60 spa six weeks, which…

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:26)

Yeah.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (09:37)

It was ⁓ incredible to see the culture of spa in so many different countries. Yes, two. ⁓ in, my most favourite is Thermae Vals in Switzerland. So that’s an iconic spa that really has stood the test of time. Peter Zumther is a well-known architect for creating that masterpiece. And I think it’s just such a

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:44)

Any stand-out?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (10:06)

A statement of less is more. It’s profound bathing and that really struck me back then. Came in a little later in my life with the new bath house. That’s really where that seed was planted. And then Mayamo Resort in Arizona and this is where we had beautiful spa ⁓ treatment rooms and areas built into these incredible red cliffs that were the colour of Uluru.

And you know the reception, the waiting area had a red earth floor that was blessed by native Indians every year and there was just so much ethos and philosophy and culture behind it and that’s what really stood out. You know it was the ones that were very authentic to what they did and they stayed true to that.

DI GILLETT – HOST (10:48)

Beautiful.

So as a female entrepreneur, you scaled your organisation now and employ what you said 49 women in the organisation?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (11:03)

Yeah, so at Aurora there’s 49. Two. Two me. We have two. They’re always outnumbered in, you know, I’ve worked with females all my career really with a sprinkling.

DI GILLETT – HOST (11:19)

So is the industry globally female centric in the staffing?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (11:25)

Yes, yes. Generally, you know, if you look at the beauty therapist and massage therapists, they’re predominantly female careers. Generally, if you go into your sort of physio or remedial massage, there’s more males in there as well. And thankfully, there’s more males taking on beauty therapy as well. Yeah. But still not to the numbers that there will be for the females, you know, in taking on those careers. So I think

the caregiving role. The females do very well with that.

DI GILLETT – HOST (11:55)

Ask

what the guys do in your organisation. do do massage.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (11:57)

And

we have had some bathhouse attendants as well. Okay. You know, where they’re, you know, educating our guests on the journey. But no, they’re in their massage, so deep tissue massage.

DI GILLETT – HOST (12:10)

So can you take us behind the scenes of what it was like in the early days of being a first, because that’s uncharted territory. ⁓ as you suggested, you hadn’t really travelled at that point in time. So there wasn’t someone to look at in your immediate front yard to reference. How unnerving was that?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (12:36)

I was 23 so I think I was a little naive as well.

Maybe, and you know this little sheltered Queenslander that had lived on a farm with a kangaroo was sort of landed in the middle of St Kilda. And St Kilda was eclectic, you know, if we’re talking 97.

DI GILLETT – HOST (12:59)

Very eclectic and bit grungy. wasn’t gentrified in any way then.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (13:03)

So to open

a… I had lots of interesting surprises and things that happened from, you know, people dressed up as fairies in the front yard to people wanting all of… All sorts of massage that we did not… I was like really shocked by, I guess, the wildness of St Kilda at that point in time and I…

DI GILLETT – HOST (13:15)

Every other day? Yes!

Yeah right.

I could

choose it.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (13:29)

because there was a really beautiful 1870s Italianate mansion and that was, it had such a soul and the space was incredible, opposite Katani Gardens. So it was the perfect location for what I wanted to do because a lot of it was exercise as well. And so that sort of lended itself really well. I guess I have a strength of perseverance when you do a strength test, you know, it always comes out that my perseverance is very high.

DI GILLETT – HOST (13:39)

Yes

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (13:58)

So I guess my perseverance to the vision I had in mind was really clear for me. I guess I had plenty of people that said this will never work. Melbourne, this will never work in Melbourne. Who are you to come to Melbourne? You don’t know anyone. had someone say to me, how do you think you can start a business?

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:18)

And you’re not on a soapbox yelling out, you’re a quiet, softly spoken individual. That could be misconstrued.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (14:26)

Yes, well I think for me it was always that every person that walks in the door needs to have an experience beyond their expectation because then they are our ambassadors and that’s what we work on because 1997 I can tell you there wasn’t much social media around. no. know it was about and still to this day I do think that’s one of our best forms of marketing is it’s

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:49)

So it’s

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (14:57)

and Totti Goldsmith did something on ⁓ Foxtel, which was great, and Totti knew me from Camp Eden, so that was really lovely and that helped and then got on the, Totti then went on the Good Morning Show with Bert Newton.

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:02)

helpful.

Because you would have had plenty of famous names through Camp Eden de-stressing.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (15:18)

I mean literally the day she went on Burt Newton, it was like my second day of opening and the phone rang and I was like, I only had one line, you know, picking up the phone, hello? I very much was at the call front with it all and got to sort of live it. But I guess my biggest thing has always been protecting the guest experience and ensuring that experience is.

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:25)

You

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (15:43)

the best it possibly can be and you still to this day which we’ll get to in Sorrento. We run day retreats and I’m always looking for big impact you know maximum impact in the minimum amount of minutes because when I moved here from Melbourne you know we had the guests for six days so a lot of time to get to know them and to be able to navigate their personal journey when I came to Melbourne I them for 60 minutes.

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:10)

Yeah, it’s not so revealing.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (16:12)

It needed to be expressed and I needed to really create impactful moments, which is why I started hand mixing products and created a product company. Not because I thought I want to sell products because I made these products, I use them on the guests because they were at a higher intensity and the therapy of them was higher. And then a guest asked if he could buy some and I was like, that’s strange.

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:32)

We love your espoir.

Thank you.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (16:38)

But it did take me putting it into a Ziploc bag and giving it to him to think I should get more professional. I always am led by what the guests need and for me that sort of, the penny dropped that day because we had the destination retreat that you go to annually. We have the monthly top up at the spa but we have the daily self care with the product.

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:43)

Big

That’s

the loop. So has more of your inspiration come from feedback from the guests or looking out to the marketplace externally? Yeah.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (17:12)

I’d say it’s a balance ⁓

because, you know, I always want to be guided like Aurora Spa and Bathhouse in Sorrento now is very much what the market’s ready for now. And when we were in St Kilda, it was very much about really landing spa in Australia and what the market are ready for and how we educate the market on the benefit of spa and taking it out of pamper and indulgence.

and into wellness and thriving health. And so I feel like it’s always listening to the guest as the priority. then I don’t follow trends, but I like to look at evidence as to how we can enhance our guest’s health. And doing that in the shortest amount of time is where I sort of

DI GILLETT – HOST (18:00)

So from 97 to 2025, what’s been the growth in the industry?

Yeah

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (18:08)

mean if we look at bath houses in the last year, you know, we’ve gone from really, we had the Hepburn as a bath house and Peninsular Hot Springs, but now we would have well over 200 in the industry.

DI GILLETT – HOST (18:24)

since COVID. Yes.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (18:26)

Yes, so there’s a lot of bathhouses. know within Spa when I started within eight years there were 600 spas. So it’s a rapid growth and that’s fantastic but the market are ready for it. That’s what they’re saying and that’s really wonderful.

DI GILLETT – HOST (18:38)

That’s incredible.

Experiential is also high on the consumer shopping list.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (18:51)

Yeah,

I people are looking for meaningful moments and when they experience the therapy of spa and the therapy of bath house, people walk out of the bath house and they just say, what just happened in there? I feel very different. And we’ve got, you know, 23 year old male who is a successful business owner and his mates go want to go fishing and he brings them into the bath house.

He goes, mate, you need to come in and do this. You’ll feel different. And then they come in every single time when they’re in Sorrento and have their bathing experience. And other people say that their house in Sorrento is now a retreat because they bathe before they hop to their house. So that sort of gets them in the mode of switching off their nervous system. Because I guess the thing I’ve seen a lot of over the years is people’s nervous system being quite

DI GILLETT – HOST (19:31)

wow. ⁓

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (19:47)

I’d it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (19:51)

So on that point alone, do you think there’s a direct correlation in the growth of the industry and what you’re seeing and the rise of social media? I do. And handheld devices? I do.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (20:04)

Yes.

Look, we’ve always had tension in shoulders and in our body from looking at computer screens and our posture and all of those things, but it’s accentuated now. And the stress on the physical, and then we look at the mental and the emotional, and it’s impacting people’s sleep, it’s impacting how they switch off, their mood. Anxiety is a big one that we see a lot of, especially in the younger generation.

There’s been a spa and bath houses are needed now more than ever. And we’re really proud that Aurora, we’ve always been technology free and there’s not many places that we go now without our devices. And so if you can remove that device and then just allow the nervous system to be rebuilt and nourished, that’s what we really aim to provide our guests with that experience.

DI GILLETT – HOST (21:01)

Anybody resist that? Plenty. They don’t want to leave it at door. ⁓

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (21:04)

Yeah, we’ve had people.

plants

and hiding them in robes. ⁓

DI GILLETT – HOST (21:11)

can remember that in my hinterland experiences of people getting gifts sent part way through the week, which would be blocks of chocolate ⁓ and another phone. I was with a very devious group, clearly, but that really struck me because they were all the things that they knew they weren’t going to have for a week and they were getting them sent in as a midpoint because they thought they’d need them.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (21:40)

Well, one of my jobs at Eden was to do the pick up from the airport and that was an entertaining job.

DI GILLETT – HOST (21:47)

You

can pick the helpers or can share out the words.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (21:49)

They’re

sculling coffee while they’re eating chips and some chocolate just trying to get their…

DI GILLETT – HOST (21:54)

And they’ll be the ones who would have been throwing up detoxing the next day.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (21:59)

These

days was the day that some people didn’t make it out of bed and that was when I decided to myself that I would never drink coffee. Really? And I haven’t ever. Mainly because I saw the extreme of what it could do and sure it was in overdrive but yeah I thought I never want to have that.

DI GILLETT – HOST (22:09)

re-

Isn’t that an interesting imprint?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (22:23)

I’ve seen the effects of that and know, Tuesdays we would have people that couldn’t get out of it, physically could not get out of bed and just vomited all day and you know, very unwell from detoxing just from coffee and you know, other people detox from stress or drugs or cigarettes. But coffee was a big one that stuck with me. So I’m a chai drinker and I’ve just, I love the smell of coffee, but I’m not going to.

DI GILLETT – HOST (22:48)

Yeah, there you go. So when we hit COVID, you were still operating in St Kilda at that time with Aurora. What happened? I mean, we know everything in service industry came to a grinding halt.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (22:58)

Yes.

Yeah, that was a really challenging time for us and a lot of other businesses. We moved our product company closer to our home because we just didn’t know how do we do that? How do we send out orders? know, what do we do? And before COVID, nine months before we shut, I had made the decision we weren’t going to renew our lease in St Kilda. So,

DI GILLETT – HOST (23:16)

What was Nick?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (23:32)

I, ⁓ had a window of time for our guests to use their vouchers and to come in and see Aurora. And that kept getting cut shorter and shorter every lockdown because we had, ⁓ you know, we had an end, we had a in the sand that, you know, that we had to think incredibly stressful. Yeah. So I, at that point didn’t have the next step organized. really it’s

DI GILLETT – HOST (23:49)

I felt stressful for you.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (24:00)

I’m on the radar at that point in time when I was in the throes of the COVID, so of that COVID shutdown. And so it was incredibly stressful. And I came to the point of thinking, if the next door doesn’t open, I’m okay with that. I sort of went, you know, we’ve given 25 years to the local community of being this place of retreat for our guests.

And you know, only if the opportunity is right will I continue on. So for me it was the point I sort of, I was peaceful with my decision around that and I was like, okay, we’ll just see how the next little bit unfolds because…

DI GILLETT – HOST (24:39)

You had a multifaceted business, you had a product offering that could have continued in its own right.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (24:45)

Which has, yeah. Yeah, so I knew that that was always there, but whether the retreat was going to continue on, it needed to be the right fit for us because operating in St Kilda did become more stressful as well, different owners to what it was and not in alignment with wellness, essentially. And so it became harder.

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:06)

Which just varies in the front yard. Yeah. Maybe. And I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense at all.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (25:08)

You

And so, yeah, wasn’t until right near the very end of finishing up in St Kilda that the next opportunity presented itself. And I was only going to be taking that if it really worked. And it was the next evolution for Aurora. And bathing was a big part of it because my passion is the culture of European bathing.

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:35)

was going to say, Switzerland was reverberating in the back of your mind.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (25:38)

Yes, it really

was because we had a lot of treatment rooms in St Kilda, we had 22 treatment areas which is a big space. In comparison to in Sorrento we have eight rooms, so even bigger with treatment rooms.

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:48)

That’s just… It’s enormous.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (25:55)

But I felt that the market was now ready for the next evolution. And for me, know, the European culture of bathing, they get that it’s a therapy. In some of the European countries, it’s still a part of their healthcare system. get rebated by bathing. Imagine. That’s my legacy piece. That’s what we need to work on. For me, if there was a bathing as a bigger offering and we could design that space to really support where our guests are up to now.

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:13)

work on. We do.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (26:23)

that was appealing. you know, I have always gone to Blair-Gowrie for summers and for switch-off time as well. So I really saw that part of the peninsula as a switch-off and I thought that would be an incredible coastal retreat. you know, the concept of a historic property always appeals to me as well. And so when the opportunity came up to purpose build a facility at the Continental, which was double the size of Aurora, and

the full bathing facility it was just like a okay universe I do keep going yeah this is the next chapter

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:59)

Wow. Can I come back to that point you said about the legacy piece and that some parts of the world actually subsidise that as part of healthcare? Do you have the opportunity or is it in your purview to create the opportunity to open up a discussion around that with decision makers?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (27:24)

Yes, I think that there’s some great work being done in the Australian spa industry now. For example, next month there’s a spa summit up at Gwingana where all the spa operators from around Australia and New Zealand gather and there’s international speakers and it’s a summit. That’s where these type of discussions are taking place and so it’s absolutely on the

DI GILLETT – HOST (27:47)

Walking up the hill when it’s in numbers. Correct.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (27:50)

And we would all love it to be a part of the healthcare system and it’s gaining enough evidence now, you know, for it to be, for that to be a discussion.

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:01)

I’m

there’s plenty of politicians who go through those doors too. And your doors. Yeah.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (28:05)

Exactly. Yes.

So no, it’s on the radar.

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:09)

Yeah, interesting. Well, coming up, let’s explore why wellness on that thread isn’t a luxury and the warning signs that tell us when the tank’s running empty. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

So, Lindell, as part of your wellness ecosystem that you’ve created, which is the spa, the wellness retreats, and coaching services, and you’re also a published author, so there’s a few strings to your bow. But I know you often speak about wellness as refuelling the petrol tank. Why do you think so many of us, and particularly women, ignore the warning lights until burnout actually hits us?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (29:01)

Yes, it’s a really good question and it’s one that I see with the guests walking in our doors daily that we tend to get to this point and the analogy I like to give is, know, when you’re driving around in your car and you are in a petrol car, for example, and the light is on that your petrol is low, you know, are you just cruising around in the city thinking, I am so relaxed right now?

DI GILLETT – HOST (29:30)

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (29:32)

I’m chilling out. Life is good. No, you’re not. You’re going, okay, what’s my plan if it happens at this intersection or if it happens at the next intersection, what am I going to do? How am I going to do that? Where’s my wallet? Have I got the da da da da? You’re going through every scenario in your brain because your petrol tank has gone down so low, you go into overreactive mode, which takes up a lot of thought, process and anxiety as well.

DI GILLETT – HOST (29:58)

And life’s the same.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (30:00)

Personal energy tank is exactly the same. It’s about when we get down to that red light. That’s when the anxiety kicks in That’s when we’re feeling over reactive. That’s when we’re not making our best decisions That’s when we’re clouded in our thinking we’re feeling quite foggy You know, we’re trying to figure out the plan, but we can’t see it But we’re almost forcing it all because there’s nothing in the tank to bounce off, right? And it’s about how do we keep that tank in the orange and ideally in the green?

you know, what does it look like? What do we need to put in to refuel our tank to get it up to the orange and the green? And I always look with my coaching clients, always look at how they eat, sleep, move and switch off. If you think of them as a little circle, you’ve got quadrants there. And we think about all those quadrants and what they’re doing for our wellness. And the one I’d probably start on is sleep.

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:54)

And is that, there’s a commonality in this, I’m guessing.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (30:57)

Well, these four are your foundations of wellness. you know, the sleep and we talk about technology, you know, how many people are sleeping with their phone next to their bed and then using their phone as their alarm clock. Guilty. Yeah. Guilty. You’re not alone. A lot of people are doing this.

Our sleep is what is the dishwasher for our brain. This is where we get our energy. This is where we refuel our tank, but we refuel our brain. But we also refuel our self-regulation to be able to make great decisions. And so in the morning, if you’ve had a terrible sleep and interrupted sleep, chances are you’re not going to eat well. You probably won’t move your body and you’ll probably spend more money. Now there’s evidence around that. So how do we be the protector of our sleep? Because there’s plenty of sleep robbers out there.

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:42)

You’re

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (31:47)

and our phones can be one of those.

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:50)

women that you’re working with and coaching and even in the the corporate settings, if you were to ask how many hours sleep is the average person getting, is there an average?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (32:01)

It’s the quality of the sleep that’s in. Some people can be in bed for seven hours or eight hours, but the quality isn’t there. Yeah. So therefore the sleep isn’t great. And I did a corporate talk last week where you have a hundred people raise your hand if you sleep with your phone next to your bed, 90 % of the audience.

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:03)

Okay, so time is…

I’m

glad I’m not the exception.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (32:23)

If there’s some small wins and I’m always about the low-hanging fruit, what are we doing, the small things that help to create greater change?

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:33)

Is beeping of the phone that’s the issue or is it the radiation or vibration?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (32:41)

We know that we need an hour of no screen time in order to give our brains the time they need to decompress from the day. so, know, the first is getting off the phone an hour before bed minimum. We know the most restorative time for our sleep is between 10pm and 2am. And so that means you’re getting to bed, hopefully around 9am, and you’re off your device at 8pm. And most people find that difficult. So we start at

DI GILLETT – HOST (33:07)

Behind the eight ball.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (33:08)

Yeah. Then you’ve got your phone next to you and then what’s your alarm? It’s your phone. Okay, so you pick up your phone is the first thing you’re touching in the morning. Now do you just pick it up, turn your alarm off and put it down? Or do we go, ⁓ I might just check my emails or I might just check social media or I might just check the news. And this is about triggering our stress response.

DI GILLETT – HOST (33:32)

straight into it.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (33:33)

Straight into it. So think of protecting your nervous system and being kind to yourself and whether that stress response is mild, medium or extreme. It’s having a negative impact on your health. It’s aging you prematurely. So if we just remove that device from the bedroom, then you have, you you’re the protector of your sleep and of that space for the quality and the quantity.

DI GILLETT – HOST (33:48)

physically stiffens up our body.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (34:03)

That’s your benchmark to start with. So let’s get the foundations right and let’s remove those devices, get an old fashioned alarm clock so that you can just turn it off, the actual alarm without all the other things going on. you know, sleep is a big part of it and then, you know, how you eat, how you move and how you switch off are also very important and the switch off is what I obviously see a lot of in the spa where people do feel guilty and they’re still in that mindset of it’s selfish.

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:32)

To be there. ⁓

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (34:34)

have

time out. And so that’s always an interesting one to talk about as well about our priorities and just the impact of your community, your work community, your family when you are refuelled versus when you’re empty.

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:53)

That’s an interesting conversation, isn’t it? Because if you’re not refuelled, what you’re providing to family or workplace is clearly going to be compromised, yet you still feel guilty for taking the time out to pause.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (35:09)

Yes, and it eventually catches up through resentment and other emotions that are not great for our body or they cause inflammation in our body or they don’t help our relationships in any way. it always comes around and I dive into that with my coaching clients. But I see it in the spa as well. When we have our day retreats, our guests come at nine in the morning and leave at four in the afternoon. So we get a deeper dive.

into their challenges as well. And when someone’s done a day retreat for a whole day, you know, I say, give me one day, I’ll give you three in return. Because that’s what it feels like. We’re running a retreat next month, which is three days. So you give me three days, I’ll give you seven. You know, it’s about how do we intensify your ability to restore your nervous system.

Therefore restore equilibrium in your world for whatever that looks like to be achievers great But do it from a full tank where you’re going to be making fantastic decisions and seeing the best opportunities

DI GILLETT – HOST (36:15)

So is it frustrating when you see that guest come back at rock bottom next visit? Because I’m sure that happens and I’m sure not all of them take the messages on board and change their ways.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (36:31)

Yes,

look, coaching clients are a little different because you’re so invested in the journey and you’ve got, you’re accountable, they’re accountable to one person. So that’s very satisfying. And then the guests that go through the spa, it’s all about what level they’re going to have an impactful experience in. And, you know, I talk about the bath house as you can chit chat all your way, all the way through the bath house and have some hot cold, stop in the sauna, blah, blah, and then come out and go, hey, that was nice.

DI GILLETT – HOST (37:00)

Mmm.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (37:02)

Or you can go to the bathhouse and you can be really present with yourself and really work on restorative breath for your nervous system and immerse yourself in every experience. And when your mind wanders, pull it back and actually, you know, practice wellness while you’re there and you’ll walk out and go, that was transformational. So, you know, it’s about where you want to land. You know, if you want that experience of feeling very different, it’s available.

if we’re open to it. And sometimes the guests might come to the bathhouse and it’s the very first time they’ve been to a bathhouse. So it takes a little moment to get into it and then in time, you know, we’ve had very emotional guests and guests that are very touched by the experience and that’s what we aim to get to.

DI GILLETT – HOST (37:49)

Are males or females more accepting to do the latter and go in more mindful? ⁓

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (37:56)

⁓ Sometimes the males are dragged along.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:01)

Sounds like shopping!

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (38:04)

our marketing program, we might call them the reluctant husbands, but they’re generally the easiest ones to convert because they’re completely caught by surprise. And if I look at our regular repeat guests that are coming in weekly, the majority of those are male.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:07)

Yeah

that right?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (38:26)

Yeah, because I think that ⁓ males, from what I see, when we talk to males about their program of moving forward, they just commit to it. Whereas I think females find it harder to balance the priorities and the juggle and they do have probably

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:45)

the guilt as opposed to the guys are so the guys come back because it’s okay it’s like golf I can take all Wednesday or I can go to the spa

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (38:54)

of therapy.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:55)

Interesting. And they probably know how to make it tax deductible without you speaking to the government, us girls have probably not latched on to that yet.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (39:04)

Shut up!

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:06)

Isn’t that interesting though in the psyche? So in your coaching, are you coaching men and women? Yes. And do you find in that setting that women struggle more to give themselves permission than the men when you’re talking in a coaching session? Yeah.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (39:26)

Yes.

Yeah, really simply. coach a lot of female lawyers and that’s a high stress career. ⁓ And yeah, they sometimes find it very challenging, ⁓ predominantly male dominant industry as well. And so they find that really difficult to innately not stop proving themselves.

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:54)

And they’re probably more inclined to take on board the emotion of the story that they might be representing too, I suspect, through a more empathic view of the world.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (40:03)

Yes.

Yeah. So I think it’s a greater challenge for them.

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:08)

Hmm. Well, I mean, I’m asking a question that was kind of a rhetorical question, but I was hoping it might not be quite so black and white.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (40:19)

Sorry.

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:21)

How

do you demonstrate or educate somebody that the permission to pause is okay?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (40:29)

I think people seek it out or find it when they’re ready and ⁓ from what I’ve seen over the years sometimes it’ll be someone buying a gift voucher for someone. You know as a gift of time out you know they see that someone’s working hard or he’s going through a particularly challenging time and they’ve reached out with a gift of care.

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:56)

That’s

always been how I have landed at a retreat or a spa.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (41:01)

That’s interesting. Okay, so never booking yourself in.

DI GILLETT – HOST (41:04)

never booked myself in. It’s always been through the route of it being a gift. ⁓ And I haven’t realised that until you have just said that.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (41:13)

That’s fascinating. Not unusual as well. a lot of people can be gifted that because generally the person gifting it to you has had this experience that they think you’re going to benefit from going back to them being our ambassadors. They’re ambassadors for change and they’re ambassadors for seeking you to have nourishment and nurturing.

And that’s how some people come to that experience. ⁓ others might try a day retreat with us, they might, a friend has told them about the bath house. But now wellness is very openly discussed, and it’s fantastic that people are going, let’s go bathing rather than go to the pub. Let’s do something that actually we feel better from.

rather than something that perhaps we don’t wake up feeling so great the next day. So there’s a lot more emphasis on that as well. I’ve got a daughter that’s 21 and ⁓ doesn’t love nightclubs, but she goes sauna cold plunging in a group environment for social wellness. And she goes to the bay when there’s big breathing cold plunge workout on down there as well. And they do that together. So this next generation, ⁓

DI GILLETT – HOST (42:24)

Fantastic.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (42:37)

a little wiser on the wellness side of it and they’re very embracing of it because there’s now the evidence behind it to show that it really worked.

DI GILLETT – HOST (42:46)

And they’ve looked at our work-life balance flaws and said, don’t want to do what you’re doing.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (42:51)

Yes,

I think, know, globally things have shifted with COVID and ways of working have changed as well. you know, they’re really leading it in a new direction as well. ⁓ there is definitely that younger generation are very open to going to a spa and a bathhouse as social wellness or wellness for themselves as well. And then, you know, there’s the exhausted new moms and that sort of next generation of trying to balance.

the priorities of what they’ve got going on and I’ve been there. I know it’s tricky and that’s perhaps when you’re able to have more micro moments where you can have your 10 minute daily rituals where you don’t have to leave the house but you can still have those moments of pause and I think that’s where our product rituals come in that you can have, know, simply washing your hands with our hand wash.

DI GILLETT – HOST (43:31)

Yes

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (43:48)

The essential oils are built to calm your nervous system.

DI GILLETT – HOST (43:52)

Now I know why your body wash makes me feel so wonderful when I start my day with that in the shower. The grapefruit.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (43:58)

Is that the grapefruit? Yeah.

So that’s what I use in the morning. Yeah. I use the rosin aloe at night because it’s very calming. in the morning, that’s about kick-starting our nervous system, but also our thoughts and creating that clarity. And every morning when I use my grapefruit body cleanser, you know, I emulsify all over my body and then…

DI GILLETT – HOST (44:18)

Mmm.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (44:19)

three deep breaths. And then when you feel that, you know, overwhelming pressure coming throughout the day, you can hook yourself back to that feeling and almost smell that aroma because you were so present. So it’s about how do we bring more presence to what we’re already doing because we know the science is showing that by controlling our breath is the best way to reverse our stress response.

DI GILLETT – HOST (44:42)

I have over subsequent time put in a three, four, five breathing reminder into my diary every morning so that I start at my desk in that manner. And it was interesting, I did an interview with somebody in the biohacking space and I’m still not quite sure where I sit on biohacking as long as it’s… ⁓

more along the lines of wellness than extremity. However, talking with somebody the other day and a breathing technique that I was aware of but had never done, which is the breathing in, fully exhausting the intake and then taking a further breath. I fall asleep. I fall asleep very quickly anyway, but I fall asleep immediately after doing three or four of those and I’m gone.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (45:36)

do it when you get into bed at night. Yeah. That’s the, mean, that’s a great way. I like to call it the bookends of your day. So how do you start your day and how do you finish your day? ⁓

DI GILLETT – HOST (45:43)

Yeah.

I’m not failing

quite as badly as I thought, Lindor. You’re doing well. You’re doing well. The body wash. You know what?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (45:50)

Yeah!

This wellness, the whole wellness thing is a practice. This is not something we master. This is something we continually evolve and we practice to get better at it. no one is an expert on mastering. There’s just different levels of knowledge. And for me, different amounts of people I see and what works and what doesn’t. you know, when I say to my guests go and meditate for 40 minutes, they look at me like, are you, are you for real? I don’t have 40 minutes.

DI GILLETT – HOST (45:56)

Yeah

I can just hear that.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (46:24)

Over the years that building in these practices that are easy and portable are really important because during the day you don’t know what call you’re going to get or really what control you’ve got over your day. You think you’ve got a plan but that could change. How you start the day and how you finish the day generally is under your control. So I have three things in the morning and three things in the evening. So there are more bookends of the day.

DI GILLETT – HOST (46:47)

So what’s your indulgence?

Not indulgences, their life practice.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (46:55)

Yeah, they’re just practices that really help me to just, you know, keep that equilibrium through the day or, you know, come back to it. So, number one, make my bed. Number two, mindful movement. And number three, mindful shower. Okay. my… Yeah. And then at the end of the day, it’s journaling because I want to get out what’s in my head onto paper.

DI GILLETT – HOST (47:12)

⁓ I’m good. Yeah

Yeah, journaling is on my phone. Is that okay? Into my notes section. Better in a book.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (47:26)

Well the phone’s not going to be near your bed anymore, so you need to buy yourself a journal and a pen and put that down. better to write it down. So really getting that out on paper. ⁓ And then I like to do my breathing. And then I use my essential oils. So they’re in the form of a thermal balm, which is on the pressure points of my shoulders and my neck, or using Australian essential oils.

DI GILLETT – HOST (47:55)

Rose

Fragrance

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (47:56)

Yeah, that’s actually camphor and peppermint, so it’s quite intense. And I use it on the back of my neck and down into my shoulders because it’s like a petrochemical-free tiger balm. You know, it’s that minimum type balm. And for me, it just stops my thoughts because it’s so intense.

DI GILLETT – HOST (48:07)

Yes.

RELAX

And I know when I jump into bed what I do and I learnt this many, years ago when I developed an autoimmune condition and had alopecia totalis for four years and was totally bald. Another story. However, a practice that I learnt from that time that I have never let go is when I lie in bed at night, I go through from my toes through to my head.

and go through the mental let go in each point and you realise how much you’re lying there holding, holding on.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (48:52)

Yeah. You’re

doing your own yoga nidra. Yeah. And that’s fantastic. And we hold so much tension in our jaw, for example. And sometimes it’s not until you lie down in bed that you realize, I am so sore in my jaw. actually, I’m squinting my eyes because I’m feeling the pressure. those sorts of practices. for people that…

don’t know what a yoga nidri is. There’s plenty of great apps where you can insight time. There’s a free app and yoga nidri is on there as well. But the other thing you can do is just diaphragmatically breathe. Get the breath down to the belly. So when we’re lying in bed, that’s the best time to do it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (49:26)

Yes.

Because it’s a straight line, you’re not folded up and seated.

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (49:36)

Yeah, so you’re just wanting to raise the belly and not chest breathe because when we’re under pressure we generally chest breathe and you know it’s that fight-or-flight sort of stress response. So we want to be you know really having these long inhalations but even longer exhalations so your body knows it’s safe and you’re really turning off that stress response and going into that rest and digest which is the perfect place to start for quality sleep.

DI GILLETT – HOST (49:45)

Y O U F

So if I was to say what is the one point you would like the listeners to walk away from this conversation and recall, what would that be, Lindell?

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (50:17)

It’s the small things you do every day that make the greatest difference. I see so many guests who go for the one big thing, I’m going to run a marathon, I’m going to do something enormous and then a month in can’t sustain it. So be kind to yourself in the wellness practices that you bring in and bring in sustainable practices that you think you could be doing in three to six months time. And if you think you can be doing that in three to six months time,

well that’s probably a great practice to bring in. But just be kind and gentle to yourself, especially it’s an easy one to bring back to movement because you know so often if someone wants to get fit they start running five kilometres or ten kilometres and then they get an injury. Just walk around the block. It’s actually the habit that you’re building that is more important than the quantity you’re doing at the start. So you’re just building a habit of movement.

You’re not trying to run a marathon because actually in time you’ll build up your cardio and you’ll build up your tolerance for exercise But to start with you actually creating the habit and when we can create the habit we have more automation in our body We don’t have to think so much because we get decision fatigue throughout the day. So just the small things be kind and gentle to yourself

DI GILLETT – HOST (51:34)

Beautiful. So if somebody wants to find the spa, bathhouse, where

LYNDALL MITCHELL – AURORA SPA (51:40)

We are, there’s a website, auroraspar.com.au. Aurora Spa and Bathhouse is located in Sorrento at the Continental Hotel and the Aspar products are online as well.

DI GILLETT – HOST (51:53)

Beautiful. Yes. Thank you so much for joining me today, Lindle. It’s a reminder. I sit here and acknowledge everything you’re saying and reminding myself how many things I don’t do, but there’s a few things that I do do. So I’m going to challenge the listeners to do exactly the same thing. But the one thing that I am going to do, and I’m going to challenge anybody listening to do, is get an alarm clock and

get the phone out of the bedroom. So, job is done. Thank you. So, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please be sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast. on all of the podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and we’ve got our own YouTube channel. Until next time.

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, hit that subscribe button and be sure that you never miss an episode. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Find Lyndall at:

Website https://auroraspa.com.au/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lyndallmitchell/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/947982/aurora-spa-bathhouse/?hl=en

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

✨ Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

➜ Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

Disclaimer: https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

PR is a Power Move – How to Build a Brand That Lasts

by admin | Oct 22, 2025 | Entrepreneur, Female Entrepreneur, Podcast For Women

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett sits down with Cassandra Hili, Founder & Director of Curated Agency, to unpack the art and impact of storytelling in branding.

Cassandra’s journey began at just 17 when a personal health blog went viral and set her on a path to becoming a recognised young business leader. Together, Di and Cassandra explore what it really takes to stay visible and authentic in a fast-moving digital landscape and how to build a brand with longevity, not just likes.

💡 You’ll Hear:

➜ Why storytelling is the foundation of every great brand

➜ How vulnerability drives connection and credibility

➜ The truth about earned vs paid media (and how to avoid the scams)

➜ The key to maintaining relevance long after a viral moment

➜ The first PR steps for founders ready to amplify their message

From TikTok to morning television, Cassandra’s approach to PR proves that credibility, not clicks, is the real currency.

Cassandra said:

“Tell your own story to connect with others.”
“Be vulnerable enough to share your story.”
“PR is about investing in credibility.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

Connect with Di:

Find Cassandra Hili at:

Website https://www.curatedagency.com.au/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cassandrahili/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/curated_agency

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

✨ Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

➜ Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

Disclaimer: https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

Exclusive Podcast Interview with Jo Tarnawsky: The Cost of Speaking Out

by admin | Oct 20, 2025 | Bullying, Change Makers, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders

In this exclusive podcast episode on the Power Of Women Podcast, former diplomat and Chief of Staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia Jo Tarnawsky sits down with Di Gillett to share the story that made national headlines ~ and the personal cost of speaking out against workplace toxicity.

From representing Australia across international postings to surviving breast cancer abroad, Jo’s life has been defined by courage, integrity and purpose. But it was her decision to speak out against systemic workplace abuse that would test every one of those qualities.

Through a raw and revealing conversation, Jo explores what happens when the system fails to protect its own, and why finding your people matters more than finding the crowd.

You’ll hear:

➜ How Jo’s career in diplomacy prepared her for life’s toughest moments

➜ The story behind her cancer diagnosis and recovery abroad

➜ What really happens when the system lets you down

➜ How to rebuild after workplace trauma

➜ Why speaking out comes with a cost — but silence costs more

➜ What she is doing now.

This is a conversation about courage, purpose and the power of standing up ~ not just for yourself, but for the women who will come after you.

Jo said:

Standing up and speaking out comes with a cost – but so does remaining silent.

Finding your people can be a game-changer. You don’t need a large crowd, just the right ones.

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here👇

JO TARNAWSKY (00:00)

I believe that courage and integrity has never been more important. I think that standing up and speaking out comes with a cost, but so does remaining silent. And I think finding your people can make a world of difference.

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

Of course, I can’t come back, but all my things are still in my office. And how does the Deputy Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff just disappear with no notice midway through a Tuesday? It just didn’t make any sense.

DI GILLETT – Host (00:48)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

today’s story is a powerful one and one that in fact did make the headlines in 2025. It’s a conversation about the impact of toxic workplaces,

what happens when the system lets you down, the cost of speaking out, but most importantly,

how not to let those experiences define you or hold you back.

Jo Tarnawsky welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

JO TARNAWSKY (01:21)

Thank you so much, Di. It’s absolutely wonderful to be here. I’m happy to say I’ve caught a number of your podcasts this year. I think it’s an incredible series. So thank you for doing it.

DI GILLETT – Host (01:32)

firstly, I want to say thank you for choosing the Power of Women podcast to be the very first time to talk about your story in a bit more detail publicly, because I know it takes courage to do that, and I am really honored that you’ve trusted us with this today. Before we step into the more challenging part of your recent experience, I would love to hear about your career journey, you’ve held

senior roles at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And you have represented Australia across international postings. Can you take us through some of the highlights and some of your proudest moments?

JO TARNAWSKY (02:13)

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I’ve been really lucky to have almost two decades of experience working in diplomacy and worked in some incredible places, met some wonderful people, doing some really interesting things. ⁓ I think one of the things about being a diplomat is that ⁓ on any given day you could be wearing multiple hats. You can be an advisor, an event planner. You could be helping someone with a lost passport or a consular issue.

You can be writing some kind of geopolitical analysis, meeting with international dignitaries, a whole range of things. ⁓ And, you know, I think it also comes with some challenges. think there’s a public sort of perception of diplomats at cocktail parties and and traveling around. But I’ve got to say that, you know, this

There’s a whole lot of other work that goes often unseen behind the scenes. I know, for example, that ⁓ across my experience, ⁓ in addition to, of course, attending cocktail parties, I’ve been deployed to war zones. ⁓ I’ve been held up at gunpoint more than once. I was nearly kidnapped at one point. And a lot of the work that’s done is invisible. ⁓ But of course, it also gives you extraordinary opportunities.

DI GILLETT – Host (03:36)

Are you out to shed any light on some of those more challenging moments? Gunpoint and kidnap? is that confidential?

JO TARNAWSKY (03:44)

No, In one instance, I was in Zimbabwe during some of the height of the Mugabe era. And I just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time. And I was driving to work. I was there on a short term mission during it was around 2007, 2008, when there was a runoff election. Mugabe had not won the first time around. And I was on my way to the embassy and Mugabe’s

⁓ entourage happened to go by and I was front of line and you see it coming, there’s warning sort of motorcycles I pulled over to the side of the road but I just happened to be near where his residence was and so he was going to pass in front of me and so some lovely looking chaps with some very large weapons came right up to where I was sitting in the driver’s seat and held a gun basically to my head ⁓ just to make sure I

wasn’t going to take one for humanity basically, and stayed where I was. So that was one of them. And then on another ⁓ incident, ⁓ I was acting High Commissioner in Trinidad and Tobago for a couple of months. A lot of people sort of, again, think of the Caribbean as this, as the beaches and the, you know, they have very romantic notions, but actually Trinidad and Tobago, you can see the coast of Venezuela from there. There’s a run of drugs and

all sorts of things that go through that channel. There’s actually like a murder count when I was there on the front pages of the paper. And they just had a huge security crackdown for the Summit of Americas where President Obama and a whole range of other leaders had come in. so crime had sort of stopped or been contained for about two months. And then, of course, once all of that left, it spiked.

And again, wrong place, wrong time. And I ended up being somewhere that was subject to an armed robbery for where there was about eight gunmen that held me up. Yeah, that was definitely one of the more traumatizing experiences that I had. And yeah, but I’ve got to say that, you know, I’ve worked a defect with a whole range of people that have had their own experiences and

have gone out and done the hard yards and so many people have a story either being deployed to war zones or working through tsunamis or being at embassies that have been attacked. And so it really is sometimes frontline service in the national interest.

DI GILLETT – Host (06:23)

Is there professional counselling that is offered to diplomats who’ve experienced such things?

JO TARNAWSKY (06:30)

There is now. When I first started back in 2002, I remember being one of the first people called in the middle of the night when the first Bali bombings hit. We were sort of called out of bed. And to be honest, I was a graduate. I thought it was a training, a training sort of event. was nothing on the news. This is before social.

it was around 2002, 2003, yeah, 2002 maybe. And so we were called in the middle of the night, early one Sunday morning, even by the time we got to headquarters, the religious programming was still on the news. So it all kind of felt a bit surreal. But then when they flicked the phones on, were people already, there were already online families waiting to get through. And it was real.

And it even at that early stage took a little while for counselors to sort of be debriefing after every shift, because you’d have quite, you know, you’d have people that may have lost loved ones or just people who had canceled their holidays. And there was no sort of, couldn’t work out who would be the angst, but you would sometimes be the first person that was speaking to. And so a lot of that confusion or anger was directed at you. And.

So they’ve got better, whereas I think there’s now there’s multiple full-time counselors that go out to visit embassies, posts, as we call them, on a regular basis ⁓ to check in. They have people on that. And so it’s got, the system has got a lot better ⁓ in ensuring that sort of support is available to staff.

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

So how many years all up did you spend overseas, Jo?

JO TARNAWSKY (08:09)

So on and off my first posting, four year, three year posting was in Papua New Guinea. Then I did a series of jobs over several years where it might be deployed somewhere for just a couple of months. So that included places like Iraq, like Zimbabwe, Kenya. I worked on a kidnapping case there, Ethiopia to help VIP visits come in, Trinidad and Tobago, Fiji. There was a whole range of things. And then my very last posting was actually to Italy.

where I was acting ambassador for the first six months and then I was deputy ambassador for the next three years. I was also worked out at the World Food Program, the United Nations World Food Program and a couple of the other international organizations. And we were also accredited to Libya, Albania, San Marino, which, you know, also it’s a small embassy And

everybody sort of thinks, wow, Italy, how easy it had the highest number of lost and stolen passports there at the time. This is pre-COVID, so it definitely kept us on our toes. But the other thing that happened to me while I was there was I got cancer. so, yes, so it wasn’t all quite ⁓ Prosecco at the Coliseum. ⁓

DI GILLETT – Host (09:22)

What

do you do when that happens in a foreign country? Do you jump a plane and head home or do you start to deal with it in country?

JO TARNAWSKY (09:28)

think it depends on the country. Obviously most of the other places, if I had been there when I had been diagnosed, you would want to come home. But I was a long way from home in a country which did have medical procedures. And to be honest with you, I had never needed anything more than a vaccination. ⁓ And something in my gut just told me they can do the surgery here next Wednesday. And even though there was a few questions around how much would it cost and.

DI GILLETT – Host (09:36)

put it home.

JO TARNAWSKY (09:58)

Could I come home and all those sorts of things. It was really lucky that I trusted my gut because when they got the tumor out, it was breast cancer and they saw how fast it was running and the type I had tripped. Time is everything. They say that if I had got four to six weeks later, I wouldn’t be here now.

DI GILLETT – Host (10:10)

Time was everything.

There’s a lot to be said for intuition.

JO TARNAWSKY (10:19)

Yes, there is. of course I just, you never think it’s going to happen to you until it does. And, you know, then you’ve just got to go with it really. And so I had the full dense dose chemo, lost my hair. ⁓ And I think one of the hardest parts of leaving Italy was not the gelato shops on every corner ⁓ and the historic buildings. It was actually leaving my oncologist. Cause you also developed quite a rapport.

obviously with somebody you’ve come to know through one of those experiences. Yeah.

DI GILLETT – Host (10:52)

Did you work through the procedure in the chemo or did you take time out completely to recover?

JO TARNAWSKY (10:59)

I worked through most of it, not the early stages. DFAT had originally wanted me to come home. And so I was at pains not to be a problem. And I, you know, so what I did was I took off for surgery. I also didn’t know what was coming in hindsight. So by the time I had surgery, no one would talk to me about chemo.

And in fact, defat would only sort of sign off on the surgery if there wasn’t mention of it. And if, you know, it didn’t look like I was going to need sort of long-term help. And so it wasn’t until after they got the tumor results that they realized actually you you need chemo and you need it fast. So it’s, then with that, they can tell you exactly when you’re going to start losing your hair. And so I decided that I would go through that and I, and so it’s around day 14 or so that it starts falling out. And, you know, my daughter was only three.

She was going through a Rapunzel phase, you know, focusing on getting her through that. And so I waited for my hair to fall out. But actually because of cutbacks in the overseas service, I had actually absorbed another whole full-time role about six months earlier. I was doing two jobs anyway. So what they did was they ended up bringing somebody in on a short-term mission so that I just did one job and they did the other. But then the other thing too was,

I was very careful. Exercise was the thing that was absolutely a game changer for me. And so I just worked strict hours. I stuck to my schedule for that. And I think too what was also helpful was having a routine at home. So I pulled back the hours, I pulled back the scope, I wasn’t silly about it, but having some routine brought some normality. I think it also helped me return to the workforce more fully when my treatment ended because

It wasn’t I didn’t have this gigantic mountain to cross. I’d kind of kept a little bit in the loop as to what was happening. I mean, that said, anyone who’s been through treatment knows the fatigue, the physical fatigue knocks you off your feet. Once your hair grows, starts growing back after treatment’s finished, everybody thinks it’s over. And to be honest with you, that was one of the hardest experiences was when treatment ended because there was nothing left to fight and you just had to, you know, you were waiting for it to come back.

But I think mentally too, like the cognitive impacts aren’t something that people fully appreciate. So I know the second cocktail that I had really did affect like my spelling. I’d always been a great speller. Suddenly I was missing bits and emails. I wouldn’t say it’s like dementia or Alzheimer’s, but there was a moment, you know, where I would look at my daughter. Where I looked at my daughter and knew she was my daughter. I could not remember her name. And so.

I had to so I don’t speak Italian very well at all. And part of that was because at the end of that, what I needed to get back up was actually my mother tongue English. I needed to make sure that my spelling and everything that I so that I could build back my life, because I was the primary breadwinner, could get back on track and just sort of picking your battles and sort of working your way back through the fatigue, through the cognitive impact and a lot.

you know, and getting back to a place where eventually, as we know, became chief of staff to the deputy prime minister. And that was a real test. How far have I come? Because you really everything in the kit and that, and, know, and I, did, I loved it. I loved that job. and I had the energy and all of that. And it showed how far I had come. Like it was about five years later.

DI GILLETT – Host (14:23)

Absolutely.

say how many how many years years later so

JO TARNAWSKY (14:43)

So I crossed the magic five year mark about a month into the job. And I still say that a little cautiously because I think anybody who’s gone through it, you don’t have that casual sort of confidence about what the future holds. But certainly the doctors stop worrying about you a little bit from that point and it sort of back into more normal monitoring.

DI GILLETT – Host (15:08)

So you have held some incredibly important strategic roles that are kind of the pinnacle of public service and in some pretty tough destinations around the world. You have faced into a personal health battle being breast cancer in a foreign country. You’ve got through that, you’ve worked your way through that, dropping one job and

just working through just the one position. But that compared to perhaps more recent experience just highlights what strength of character you must have to do what you’ve done in your career, So my question’s gonna be, If you had carte blanche to speak out and the Power Of Women Podcast is your stage,

Given what the last 18 months or so have been, where should we start?

JO TARNAWSKY (16:10)

Yeah, that’s a good question. Firstly, I think you’re right. I do think that some of these other experiences helped prepare me. Bad things can happen to us at any time. And I think the only choice we ever have is sort of how we respond. But if I have

carte blanche, I think the most useful thing I can do for you and your audience. It’s not necessarily going through the detail blow by blow sort of thing, but it’s also about what we take from these experiences. So. For me, I think I think we there are moments in your life where you wake up in the morning and you have absolutely no idea that your life is about to change and that. No trigger warning.

DI GILLETT – Host (16:52)

No trigger warning.

JO TARNAWSKY (16:55)

And that something or someone is about to come across your path and by day’s end, your life is different from that moment on. And so for me, that, that day was Tuesday, the 30th of April, 2024. I had just, yeah. And there will be parts that are imprinted. and that’s okay. for me, I, it came through a phone call.

And it was a phone call with my boss, who is the deputy prime minister. We had just come back from an extraordinary trip to Ukraine. The entire trip had fallen apart while we were en route. And it was lucky in a way that I had this diplomatic background and I had done VIP visits before and worked in war zones. ⁓ I, you know, had a range of global contacts at high levels that I’d sort of established through my work, because I needed to call on all of them to be able to pull off

weaving it all back together. It is the single hardest job I’ve ever done. And so at the end of like, I was really grateful that I, you know, we were able to pull it together. But what had happened as part of that is on the way home, I had decided to raise with him privately that I had been experiencing some issues in the workplace that was starting to have an impact on me. And I, you know, tried to manage this for a while, but I had reached a point where I felt that I needed to draw them to his attention. He had

responded to me ⁓ in all of this was in text messages that, ⁓ you know, he really valued me. He was very grateful for my work and we should have a chat. And so that chat happened that day. There was no time set for it. In fact, we played a bit of phone tag that morning, ⁓ which was really normal in my job. ⁓ And this is a man I had known for more than 10 years who had actually asked me specifically to come to Parliament House to do that job for him.

And so I had no reason to sort of be too concerned. I had just wanted to raise it with him so that he knew and not to inadvertently feed the dynamics. And the conversation took a look, a really unexpected and devastating turn. And by the end of that phone call, which happened at around 11 o’clock in the morning, went for about 45 minutes.

DI GILLETT – Host (19:11)

Was the phone call one-on-one?

JO TARNAWSKY (19:13)

It was one-on-one, I just happened, thank goodness I was sort of, mean, thank goodness in some ways I was on my own. but at the same time, I didn’t have a support person or anything. Like I said, it just didn’t seem anything other than routine. And, by the end of that phone call, I had basically been stood down from traveling, ⁓ the next day and to see him, he had wanted me to take leave, saying that.

You know, I needed a break and not just a few days, take a few weeks off the books. And I, you know, he had sort of said. I had asked him because it was so the conversation has taken such a weird turn. said, you know, are you asking me to start looking for another job? And he it sounded at the time like he had sort of reluctantly agreed to that. But I found out later he’d had ⁓ he’d actually had a conversation.

prior to the phone call. So he knew what he was doing when he went into it. ⁓ And his last parting, chilling words to me were, I know how to manage this, trust me. Because I had asked, yeah. And again, this is a man I’d known for a long time. And so I was shocked. I was in trauma, probably. mean, mostly it was just shock at that point. But I’m also somebody who follows rules and doesn’t like to make a mess.

had no reason to trust that I wouldn’t take this time off.

DI GILLETT – Host (20:40)

your intuition telling you Jo

JO TARNAWSKY (20:42)

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. and I hadn’t fully processed it. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. But then I guess to sort of cut a really long story short, it’s sort of the what happens next. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

And then at the same time, the Parliamentary Workplace Service was trying, had told me that they were going to cut off my counselling. And this was at a point where I was isolated alone. I was having nightmares.

I was in one of the deepest, darkest holes of my life, not knowing what was going on. And so at that point I got a lawyer who, and even then nobody knew what was going on. was all very quiet.

DI GILLETT – Host (21:44)

There was no public announcement to the collegiate workforce that you were stepping back.

JO TARNAWSKY (21:51)

Nope. then they got that step at least got my counseling reinstated. And then I was allowed back on the work site at Parliament House. But at the 11th hour, new conditions were put on me that were basically that I couldn’t go into my own office without 24 hours of written notice and a special project had been set up for me. So I would then go into work and, know, as and I was trying to find.

other jobs so I could exit, but I would often come second and I was putting on a brave face while I was coping with the biggest trauma of my life. And I had no contact ⁓ with my boss or the office. It was just bizarre and it was deeply traumatic and I was trying to cover for myself and for everyone. And so I would literally sit in the car park and cry some mornings. I started having panic attacks because I would have to use everything I had to go and put on a brave face.

DI GILLETT – Host (22:46)

and we’ll.

JO TARNAWSKY (22:46)

And

yeah, and so it was five long months before I went public. had kind of got back into a corner where the special project was ending. I knew I wasn’t able to go back into my own office.

DI GILLETT – Host (22:56)

And with special project code for sidelined really.

JO TARNAWSKY (23:00)

it wasn’t called a special project. was, mean, there’s been a whole lot of workplace reforms that were ⁓ put out after the Jenkins review and the set the standard. And there has been some improvements around training and things. And I’ve got a bit of a background and a passion for this actually. I was a huge advocate for some of the workplace culture reforms and participated wherever I could. So I went around and as the most senior.

female chief of staff on the Hill during the winter break, when I met with all the chiefs about what they wish they had have known, you know, what training would be useful for them, all of that with the view of putting together a guide ⁓ to help future chiefs of staff. So it was kind of a bizarre situation because some of them would obviously share things with me and they had no idea what was going on. I was putting on the most professional face I possibly could. ⁓

And so yeah, it was five months before I went public when I’d sort of been backed into a corner because ⁓ this temporary project was ending. ⁓ didn’t seem to be any pathway back to my role. I still didn’t know what I’d done or why this had happened. was just…

DI GILLETT – Host (24:14)

Nobody

was informing you?

JO TARNAWSKY (24:16)

You were blinded. Yeah, just blinded. And ⁓ I’d come second and I just, I didn’t. And the options were, which many people do because of the power that you’re facing on the other side is to walk away quietly. the alternative choice, of course, is to say something. And in my mind, ⁓ they were both terrible choices, terrible options, I should say. But.

⁓ Part of it was informed by the fact that I think a large part of the trauma was the covering and the idea of walking away without saying something would mean I would have to keep doing that. My daughter had actually seen the impact at home and she was 11 at the time and she said, know, mum, maybe if you tell someone, maybe someone will help you. And that

that really stopped me in my tracks because I mean, I was in such a dark place and I thought, you know what, I owe it to her more than anything to do everything I can before this takes me. And the other thing is we teach kids around, you know, ⁓ if you’ve got a secret, yeah, if you’ve got a secret, there’s no secret too big that you shouldn’t share it, that we stand up to bad behavior and.

she’s about to go through high school and, and, you know, I couldn’t very well give her that advice if I wasn’t living it myself. And so, yeah, I thought about it for quite a while. wasn’t a rash decision. I knew it came with consequences. Um, and I’ve got to say, seeing myself on camera is like, I, not a thing. I, I’ve said to a number of people, think other than my fear of snakes.

seeing myself on TV. ⁓ And to this day, I have never watched that first press conference. I remember shaking. And I remember saying things. mean, I wrote, obviously I wrote what I said aloud, but I remember foreshadowing a few things which proved to become true, which is that I knew I would be iced out from that point. That’s how the system works and that people would rally around to protect him in their own power. And that’s exactly what happened. And so

They doubled down. I was lost out even more and isolated. ⁓ No one from the government ever checked on me. They passed the same lawyers that have been geared up for the Parliamentary Work Post Support Service that have been used by the Deputy Prime Minister to come cover. ⁓ They couldn’t give me guarantees around my confidentiality and privacy with some very personal information like psychologist records and medical records. They just said they’d give me a pseudonym.

And I just realized this isn’t going to work. And I wrote an open letter to the prime minister to this day. He’s never even acknowledged receipt. And so I made the very difficult decision to then embark on public and traumatic litigation. Let me tell you, it’s not for the faint of Yeah.

DI GILLETT – Host (27:29)

So Jo, what is the public interest story here? What should we know?

JO TARNAWSKY (27:35)

Well, I think a few things. think I have learned so much over this last year. I’ve learned about the prevalence, sadly, of toxic workplaces. I think in my case, Parliament, it was well documented. The set the standard report, the Jenkins review, as it’s called, ⁓ that had come on the back of some highly publicised cases at Parliament. 1700 people had come through, had spoken up as part of that review.

The now Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had stood in parliament in February 22 and made promises to keep women safe. Brittany Higgins and others were in the gallery when he made this speech. And said, you know, and the value of staffers ⁓ and to, you know, everybody needed to walk the talk. ⁓ And I think sadly what I’ve helped show is that while there has been some changes,

much of it is window dressing and much of the power imbalance still remains ⁓ and people are still very vulnerable. So there’s that. I think, too, the number of people that have reached out to me, particularly, I mean, I went I went very quiet on social media, shut down most accounts, but I kept LinkedIn open. And the amount of people that have reached out to me with stories of their own workplace ⁓ abuse, it is everywhere. It is a it’s almost like a quiet epidemic. And

I don’t really ever need to hear the details of people’s stories. I need, I basically get a sentence or two in and this is someone who speaks the same language and they know it. ⁓ You can recognise it in other people. And my psychologist, have a wonderful psychologist and she had sort of been a little bit worried about me when I went public sort of saying, Jo, you’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on before you help others.

⁓ I know you, she said, be careful, but I’ve got to say with a lot of these people, they did not reach out for one-on-one like me trying to fix their problem. Well, they were actually sort of backing it in and saying, we’re watching what you’re, what you’re doing is really important. Keep going. And, ⁓ the vast majority of those were women, not all, the vast majority. Yep.

DI GILLETT – Host (29:38)

I just wanted to share it.

JO TARNAWSKY (29:56)

And they were just letting me know that they supported me. And that wasn’t just after press conferences either. ⁓ It would be, it trickled right through, all the way through to today. I still get every week a couple of people reaching out because I’ve seen you.

DI GILLETT – Host (30:12)

Women, senior executives, or is it mixed?

JO TARNAWSKY (30:16)

I would say it’s really mixed in all different industries. There are some senior people and I think sometimes they reach out to me because it’s really difficult to know who to trust. And when I’ve been as public as I have, and I’ve been in the senior roles, I am potentially someone that understands. And particularly if they’ve been subject to what I would call upward bullying, which is a known type, there’s sort of a shame and not a lot of understanding around that. so again,

I think that can be, or if they’re in a high profile position, like I’ve had people that have got like post-nominals after their name, like orders of Australia and things get in contact with me. And It’s the shock and the trauma, but what I’ve learned, and here is the real public interest, I think, because I think it’s not just for individuals to know, but for workplaces, that often the targets of workplace abuse are not the people that we think necessarily in the schoolyard where we think of

⁓ really visible sorts of things that you can pinpoint or where the targets may be the weakest link, but more than more often than not, they’re high performing ethical people. And I think that’s why the trauma hits so bad because. You know, we spend a third of our lives at work. So they’re not just jobs. They are also part of who we are. And so when workplaces turn toxic.

It impacts everything. It impacts our health and confidence. It impacts our families and it impacts the future we see for ourselves. It is, like I said, a lifequake.

DI GILLETT – Host (31:52)

Jo, coming up, we’re going to talk more about your courageous story. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Jo, you were chief of staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and the Minister of Defence before your world

literally blew up in front of your eyes? What caused you most grief?

JO TARNAWSKY (32:25)

That’s

another good question, did I? I think there’s a few things you grieve. So for me, this is the job I’d wanted since I was 12 years old. I’d gone to Parliament House when I was 12 and I’d met then Prime Minister Bob Hawke. I never wanted to be a politician, but I just wanted to be the key person next to the decision maker. And I didn’t know that’s what it was, but all the work I’d done, you

going to university at the ANU, which was near Parliament House, working at Parliament House as a university student. This was the job, like at the senior level, this is everything I’d worked for. So this was the dream. I loved my job. So there was a grief, I guess, in having it end so abruptly and everything. And so there’s a grief that I think you have to let go of the job. particularly when it’s

ended in such traumatic circumstances. But I think too, there’s a broader piece there around you, there’s a grief that comes because you feel so abandoned by the people and the workplace or the institution that you’ve given so much to. And I think that’s common for a lot of people who have gone through a toxic workplace experience.

DI GILLETT – Host (33:46)

Do you feel that your colleagues had abandoned you through their own choices or do you feel they had been told to keep their distance?

JO TARNAWSKY (33:56)

Both. think sometimes you don’t need to be told because you know the way it works. ⁓ But I do understand people were also told. So I think both. But I think this comes back to what something that I said and part of those fast things at the beginning, There is a real cost to speaking up ⁓ on these things, but there is also a cost to being silent So.

if you take it even broader, when I sort of look at what’s happening in the world right now, There is a cost to being silent because you vacate the space for others. There is a cost to not, you know, to just staying out of the way that it’s somebody else’s problem ⁓ because that can have a human impact as well. So for me, as I’ve explained, there was also a cost of covering and not speaking the truth.

⁓ I felt that that added to my trauma. and I think I was right. ⁓ I think when I looked at my options about walking away or standing up and saying something, I knew by getting up and saying something and shaking like a leaf and facing those cameras, it would get harder, but I could at least see an option where it might get better. And I did feel immediately like a weight had lifted because I told the truth. And I have met people who have left.

places that have been bad for them and who didn’t say anything and sometimes they’re carrying the trauma years down the track. It’s still eating them. Whereas I’ve got to say that my recovery has, I think, been helped by the fact that I felt that I had done everything I could to raise the flag ⁓ and I’ve been true to my values.

DI GILLETT – Host (35:42)

Did your daughter have something to say when you stepped forward and spoke out?

JO TARNAWSKY (35:47)

Yeah,

I think she felt very proud that she had ⁓ helped me fix it in her view.

DI GILLETT – Host (35:56)

How wonderful.

JO TARNAWSKY (35:59)

She’s such a great kid, you know, I’m so lucky. And when I look at the future, we need strong, courageous women like her. I think there’s a, get this wrong, but there’s this wonderful little internet thing I’ve seen on the internet where it’s strong women. May we be them, may we raise them. And so hopefully I’m doing that with her, but she definitely, she’s got very high EQ, she’s very kind.

She’s super smart with real world stuff for a kid of her age. I mean, she’s had that all her life, to be honest, when we go back to when I had cancer, and even as a three year old, we had tried to explain it to her in age appropriate ways. she’d obviously, kids pick up on things though. she, I woke up one morning and she was right in my face. It was, I think just before my surgery.

And she’d obviously been thinking about it and she’d come up to me and she’s right there and she, and she just slant in very gently. And she said, don’t worry, mommy, if you lose your hair, I’ll find it for you. Which is just, I’ll never forget that. And when my hair did start falling out and you shave it to, mean, I didn’t quite understand this till it happened to me, but it’s, it’s the weight and it sort of irritates the scalp. if you can.

Let go of that shaving helps. And she went round with a little dust band and sort of picked it all up. So she likes, I think, feeling that she helped fix it. And it was the same with this. She was very proud of me for getting up there and saying something, but she also felt that she had helped. And so I think now as she sort of heads into high school, I hope that I have provided that role modeling for her and.

DI GILLETT – Host (37:27)

data.

JO TARNAWSKY (37:48)

We do have a very open relationship. Who knows what the robust teenage years hold for us, but hopefully she knows that there’s no secret too big that she can’t share with me.

DI GILLETT – Host (37:59)

her empathy score will remain as high. that’s… Jo, you said to me you don’t need a large crowd, you just need the right people. What do you mean by that?

JO TARNAWSKY (38:02)

I hope so. I hope so.

So I think finding the right people can be a game changer. So for me, it is hard. It is part of the grief that you have to let go of some people. ⁓ But again, from when I had cancer, I remember someone telling me, you’re going to be really surprised by the people who step up and the people who step back. Focus on the people who step up.

And so I had learned when you talk about what lessons I’d learned from some of these other hard experiences, that was one of them. And ⁓ you learn to focus on the people that step up, but also the people who step back. It actually says more about them and it’s more about them than it is about you. So we’ve cancer, it might be that they have something traumatic. They don’t know what to say. So they’re just back away because it’s easier not to have to say anything at all. ⁓ With a situation like this, people

may feel unsafe to have anything to do with you because they might feel that they’re going to lose their jobs by osmosis, just by breathing the same air as you or contacting you to see if you’re okay. having the right people

DI GILLETT – Host (39:16)

in a line

definition

of a toxic workplace joke.

JO TARNAWSKY (39:30)

Right. But I mean, even beyond that, there’s friends who I think will you I see it as a gift, actually, because I know exactly who my people are now. There’s some what I’d call fairweather friends whose silence speaks for them. That’s fine. It is part of that grief. ⁓ But you learn to let them go and and learn to look at who steps up. And sometimes those people can really surprise you. They could be on the periphery of your life and

really play a central role through some of these more difficult moments. You know, when I think about the key people, I only because I needed to feel safe and because this was high profile in terms of the friends I had, this is these wonderful friends of mine who they knew something was wrong. This is before I went public. They could see it. They knew I wasn’t ready to talk about it, but one day I just.

I turned up on their doorstep, I walked into their kitchen, I burst into tears. I told them everything and they just hugged me and they have been with me ever since. ⁓ And I think some of the value that they bring is that when you lose yourself in these situations, they know you before and they can see you, who you are beyond this thing that has happened to you. And so I think it’s one of those things that sometimes when you’ve lost the confidence in yourself,

borrow somebody else’s until you can find it again. So they’re wonderful people. even, you know, I found this amazing Pilates teacher again, she didn’t know. She didn’t know the details of what I was going through, but she could see it in my body. And so she ⁓ she was also central. My lawyer, I had somebody who wasn’t just a game changer in terms of the law. But he was a

game changer in terms of life. And so now when I look at what I want to do with my life and have it purpose driven, he was a large part of that great psychologist. Yep. And then friends, old school friends that came out of the woodwork who knew me way back then. ⁓ And, you know, there’s parts of you just don’t change. You know, there’s no pretenses with people that have known you since childhood.

DI GILLETT – Host (41:29)

the give.

JO TARNAWSKY (41:43)

they reconnected and reached out. ⁓ I’d gone quiet on social media, I, you know, there was sort of friends and family who were sort of ⁓ doing their bit there. ⁓ So then there were people like my DFAT friends and they, again, they believed me because they knew me and they knew that you wouldn’t stand, I wasn’t somebody that would be standing up unless this is super serious and it had reached sort of this point. And they believed me and they,

came and made sure I wasn’t isolated because I think that’s one of the big things that can affect people in toxic workplaces is just how isolating it is. So not only are you gaslit and you don’t know what’s going on and you’re confused why this is happening and you don’t know who to trust, but often there are dynamics in play which cut you off. And so just someone walking, walking with me with the dogs, being with me.

There’s another person who I’ll forever remember. So a lot of senior, senior bureaucrats who I know quite well, I’ve never heard from again because it’s all so risky, but I’ve, I’ve had a long-term mentor who has been there throughout. And there was somebody that I didn’t know, senior bureaucrat who reached out to me because it just didn’t make sense to them. And they caught up with me a number of times and it wasn’t to discuss the ins and outs of the case. It was simply.

So I wasn’t alone. And the power of that, extraordinary, extraordinary and unexpected. And so I learned, you know, if anybody asked me for a coffee, particularly after I went public, there were people and people said LinkedIn. I’ve made real life friends off LinkedIn and met up with people for coffees because I learned to embrace these. These were my people. It’s a real gift. I know exactly who they are. And some of these people existed before and some of them didn’t.

DI GILLETT – Host (43:15)

and unexpected.

JO TARNAWSKY (43:37)

But these are people who share my values, who admire courage, ⁓ who may have, may or may not have lived experience, but these are my people. And so I actually, while it would be easy to see this as purely an exercise in grief, for me, it’s a gift. You don’t get many opportunities in life to find out really who’s cheering for you and who your people are. And I know exactly who they are now.

DI GILLETT – Host (44:03)

people are. So what is next for Jo Tonasky?

JO TARNAWSKY (44:08)

Well, it was never on my bucket list, but I have just launched my own business. I could have returned to diplomacy, but I think that thing that I talked about in terms of silence, I realized the value of my voice. I didn’t want to go back in the jar. And when you work in the public service, there’s a whole lot of rules around what you can or can’t do. And I couldn’t sort of just go on like this had never happened.

So I made a conscious decision to walk away from government and I wasn’t sure what to do next. took six months off. And if you’d asked me immediately afterwards, I would have told you that I just wanted to close this chapter of my life and move on. It was good to take the break. I got some good advice from friends that said, Jo, take a break. And I think they also know me that once I start work again, I’ll just dive straight into it. So. ⁓

DI GILLETT – Host (45:00)

Have

a reputation for handing two jobs at once,

JO TARNAWSKY (45:04)

Well, ⁓ but again, the people just kept reaching out to me and I was doing something without noticing it on LinkedIn. I was liking and commenting on posts. It wasn’t necessarily posting about workplace issues, but ⁓ I was liking and commentating on a whole bunch of psychologists and academics that were working in this space. people would reach out to me and they would say, thank you. ⁓

that they were following me. And obviously they were in their own situations where they couldn’t openly like or comment on these posts themselves. But by watching what I was doing, it was empowering them to understand what was going on. And so they could make good decisions for themselves. And so I think I hit a period around July or August where I thought, you know what, taking a leaf out of this, there is something. And if I look at my lawyer and the conversations we’ve had around living a purpose led lives that

positively impact people, realized that I actually had an opportunity that if I leaned into this, well, it wasn’t something I necessarily wanted to be known for. This actually had the potential to help more people. And I had a real opportunity to do that. So while part of my business is around strategic advice and I have clients that I help that is more to do with my traditional background in international relations and government, there is a public part of it, which is around

helping people understand what has happened to them. call it workplace recovery because it’s not just about individuals, it’s around people. So for individuals, I’ve actually recorded a video series. So trust can be a really big thing and people can’t articulate it. They don’t know where to go, where to start. But if you can, I’ve sort of seen myself not as the medical advice, not as the legal advice, but helping that building block of understanding this is what’s happening so that then people can make a better decision about what they do from there.

and leading them to a whole bunch of resources that I have found. Books, podcasts, some of yours actually die and make the list. Yeah, about people just trying to get them into a better place because this is sadly everywhere and it can destroy lives. But then the second part of that is actually helping organisations because I sort of feel like when helping individuals, it’s a little bit like putting a bandaid on a cut leg. What you want to do is

DI GILLETT – Host (47:05)

Fantastic.

JO TARNAWSKY (47:25)

stop the leg being cut in the first place. And so workplace recovery, maybe they’ve had issues or whatever, but it’s helping people understand some of these lesser known dynamics because things like it is high performing ethical people that are targeted. Once you know that it helps you be more alert to it. And like so many problems in this world, once you shine a light on that, it takes away a lot of the power.

DI GILLETT – Host (47:27)

place.

JO TARNAWSKY (47:51)

So if I can educate workplaces more on some of the things that I have learned ⁓ and to help them, then I kind of know you’re not just healing or helping the organization, but you’re changing lives. And so that’s what I’m going to do.

DI GILLETT – Host (48:10)

done you. Do you think you’ll ever get the chance to educate your old employer or would you like to?

JO TARNAWSKY (48:18)

I would love a chance actually to come and actually help the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service because as I said in my second press conference, my goal is not to destroy them. They are the best. They are better than anything we’ve had in the past. And there’s some really good people that are working there that saw the stories of Brittany Higgins and others that wanted to come and make a difference.

What has happened though is that the infrastructure has been set up to still protect the people in power. Now this happened in the UK and they actually had to adjust the independent mechanisms because they weren’t independent, which is what we’re finding here. And so there’s a real opportunity here for the parliamentary workplace support service, which is what came out of the, one of the things that came out of the Jenkins review and the standard to sort of learn some of the early examples of people that just talk to people like me about

How do we adjust this? Like to think that they would get it all right in one shot, it’s complex. know, this is decades of bad behavior that has been up at parliament. so learning that and making adjustments, because what I think it’s going to end up being is not seen as independent, not trustworthy, and that’s not in anyone’s interest. We want this to work. And so actually, that’s where I think I’d be more helpful is not just in terms of my own office and my own boss, but

DI GILLETT – Host (49:19)

JO TARNAWSKY (49:42)

in terms of the broader system because I do get contacted by parliamentary workers from every single political colour and also some of the public servants that are working on the hill or elsewhere, other pockets of the hill, not necessarily staffers. This is not limited to one office or one body.

DI GILLETT – Host (50:05)

Partisan

issue that needs a bipartisan approach.

JO TARNAWSKY (50:08)

Correct. Correct.

DI GILLETT – Host (50:10)

Well, Jo, thank you so very much for sharing your story on The Power of Women. And again, thank you for trusting me to talk to you about your story, because I know it has been an incredibly difficult stage in your life. But you’ve coped with tough things before, so you have proven the resilience and the strength that you have got to get through these.

and to move beyond and I wish you all the very best in your new business. And I know that there’ll be others who will benefit from the tough experiences that you have had and you can share some of that hindsight and help them moving forward. I do have a closing question for you today through the lens of the power of women and touching on having the right people in your circle. So for the woman listening who still might be searching for their circle,

How do we find them and how do we hold on to the right people?

JO TARNAWSKY (51:12)

I think finding them, part of that is that, rightly or wrongly, we call it women’s intuition, the people who make you feel calm and safe, ⁓ where your nervous system relaxes, where you feel that you can be yourself, who are actively cheering for your success and that they want to see you thrive. I think that’s the first thing. I think look for the people who step up ⁓ when you do go through hard times. ⁓

And then I think you need to be able to sort of give back to them as well. And you can find them in unexpected places. So they might be long term friends, they might be people in your life right now. But like I have also said, they can also be found online. There is a wonderful community out there and it’s people like you, Daya, to be honest. I hope you don’t mind me saying that you were one of the people that reached out to me.

while not exclusively have they been women, the vast majority of people who have reached out have been women. And so I think your podcast is aptly described ⁓ that sometimes there is real power of women ⁓ in supporting the successes and supporting people through harder times ⁓ to get through this life. You’re doing great work, Di, and I love

DI GILLETT – Host (52:33)

making me feel emotional now.

JO TARNAWSKY (52:38)

One of the things that brings me great joy in life is seeing other people thrive and live their best lives and particularly where they’re making an impact on others and you are doing all of those things.

DI GILLETT – Host (52:48)

and we look forward to you doing exactly the same, Jo. So thank you again, wishing you all the best. We are going to share the link to your new website. Is it joetanarski.com or is it?

JO TARNAWSKY (53:01)

Yes, it is. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well. I’m just starting up Instagram and a sub stack, so follow me there as well. But LinkedIn is where I have the biggest… Diving all in. That’s right. learned a lot. Brilliant.

DI GILLETT – Host (53:11)

Out.

Fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing. We will share that with the community. And for the listeners, I think this is such a super important episode to share with somebody in your network because we all have either somebody within our sphere or we have personally experienced tough times at work. the choice to speak out does not

come easily. know in my own life there is a scenario that I have never put out there into the public space because at the time the cost of speaking out, the cost of that was too high at that time. But you never know Jo, I just might have it in me yet. it is an example for individuals who need to bring something to the fore and right or wrong. Well done. Until next time.

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