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How To Reclaim Pleasure and Power in Midlife

How To Reclaim Pleasure and Power in Midlife

Midlife doesn’t have to mean burnout, invisibility, or decline. It can be the moment you reclaim your pleasure, power, and presence.

In this Power Of Women Podcast episode, I’m joined by Natty Frasca, Pleasure Coach, rebel rouser, and founder of The Feminine Rebellion. Together we unpack why so many high-achieving women feel unfulfilled despite “having it all,” and how the key to transformation lies in reconnecting with pleasure in all its forms.

From the neuroscience of pleasure to challenging the myths of aging, Natty shares why visibility is an act of rebellion, and how every woman can own the room she walks into. Not through performance, but through presence.

If you’ve ever felt numb, disconnected, or pressured to keep “holding it all together,” this conversation is the reminder that midlife isn’t your crisis ~ it’s your revolution.

 

We explore:

What pleasure really means beyond sex

Why aging is a superpower, not a decline

How visibility can transform your confidence and power

 

Natty said:

“Aging is our superpower.”

“Stop apologizing for wanting more.”

“The most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

NATTY (00:00)

So I am Natty Frasca, rebel rouser, pleasure coach for midlife women. I’m obsessed with helping women live turned on lives. I’m a mom of three. I’m a total nerd, lover of science, pleasure and sisterhood, especially at this stage of our lives. I believe our age is our superpower. ⁓ And I believe that it’s time women stop playing small.

 

And I’m also the founder of the Feminine Rebellion.

 

DI (00:33)

I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table. So hit follow and the subscribe button and make sure you are sure to be part of every bold, unfiltered, game-changing story we tell here at the Power of Women podcast.

 

Today my guest is Natty Frasca and she is a fierce advocate for midlife as your revolution. Joining me from Boston, she’s here to flip the script on aging, on success and what it really means to feel alive again. So where are we going to talk about the neuroscience of pleasure, reclaiming your power at any age and how to own every damn room you walk into. Natty Frasca.

 

Welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

NATTY (01:33)

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for having me here. It’s my absolute pleasure, and I mean that.

 

DI (01:40)

Nettie, for those who are just meeting you in my part of the world, all for my international followers, tell us a little about who you are.

 

NATTY (01:50)

Yeah, sure. So I’m the founder of the Feminine Rebellion. I am a coach for midlife women who look like they have it all on the outside, but feel little numb, burned out, or like something is missing. And I help these women unbind from all of the BS conditioning about

 

how women are supposed to behave, ⁓ who we should be and help them connect with their own pleasure, with power, with presence. ⁓ Yeah, I believe when a woman comes alive, she becomes completely unstoppable. And there’s a massive ripple effect to that. ⁓ It changes families, communities and the world. So I’m here for big things.

 

DI (02:43)

Fabulous. So could we start with just a little bit about your story? Because you were in the corporate world, married, three kids, beautiful home, successful career. But as I understand it, there was a pivot point for you because it didn’t all gel.

 

NATTY (03:01)

It didn’t all gel. was, it happened over a few years where I just started feeling really numb. I remember lying in bed and thinking, you know, there’s something off. Why aren’t I happy? I feel like I have all of this, you know, why aren’t I grateful for it? And there was actually quite a bit of shame and guilt attached to that.

 

I actually asked for a divorce at that time. I thought if I just burned down my marriage, ⁓ I would be free to do what I wanted. Well, it’s a we had been in couples therapy for years and it’s a really interesting story and this is probably like the pivot point for me. ⁓ We were in a couple therapy session and I just decided I wanted out and I wanted to kind of start a fresh life and

 

DI (03:41)

How did that go?

 

NATTY (04:00)

My therapist, our therapist said, so, you know, what do you want? And I said, you know, a condo in the center of town, someone to shovel my walkway, you know, a nanny and, you know, probably like a lover or two. And he laughed and he’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what I meant. ⁓ Let me ask it a different way, Natty. ⁓ How do you, how do you want to feel? How do you want to feel? And I was like, wait.

 

I don’t understand the question. How do I want to feel? I was completely stumped. you know, grew up in the youngest of three kids, Italian American family, very, you know, Catholic, really learned how to work hard, how to hustle, how to keep up with the boys. I never thought about how I wanted to feel.

 

⁓ But I paused and what came to me was a vision and it was this vision of myself at my kitchen counter stirring like a pot of my grandmother’s ragu. Jerry Garcia is on the radio. I’ve got three little kids. They’re dancing wildly and my husband comes up behind me, rests his beard on my neck, puts a glass of Cabernet next to me and like wraps his arms around my waist.

 

And I started to cry. And I was like, that’s, I described what I saw and I said, that’s how I want to feel. I want to feel seen, adored, taken care of, revered like a queen. I want to be the center of your universe. I want to feel. And it was, as I was saying those words, I was so, I was kind of embarrassed.

 

DI (05:46)

You felt how far you were from that?

 

NATTY (05:50)

Well, no, I was embarrassed because I thought of myself as this real hustle go-getter feminist.

 

DI (05:57)

And that’s not what you’re asking for. Yeah.

 

NATTY (06:00)

Yeah. And what I, when I paused and dropped in and thought about what I really wanted and it just came to me, it was the opposite of what I thought I wanted. You know, I had a high powered career. I was a, you know, it was like a Girl Scout leader. I was, you know, cooking organic meals from scratch and batching them in my, I mean, I was like,

 

Martha Stewart meets, I don’t know, whatever, you know.

 

DI (06:32)

On steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

NATTY (06:34)

Yeah. And I like didn’t care about, you know, I was like, I can’t believe I actually, all I want is love. And all I want to do is slow down. And then that was like, cracked something open in me. And I thought I’ve been doing all of this wrong. And in that moment, my husband said to me, well, I can’t believe you’re saying this. Like, I want to give that to you, but you won’t let me.

 

DI (07:01)

way.

 

NATTY (07:03)

And I was like, what? And so that was the beginning of us kind of repairing our marriage. But really, it was the beginning of my own personal journey. That it was like, I don’t need to be so tough. I don’t need to be so fierce in that way only. I can also be like fiercely, I can be an advocate for myself.

 

And that, you know, wanting to slow down, wanting to be loved, wanting to be touched, wanting to be adored. So that was 10 years ago. Yeah. So it’s been a journey of unbecoming, unbinding from all of these narratives that I had inherited ⁓ and, you know, reclaiming pleasure for myself, for no one else, stopping people pleasing.

 

really becoming so beautifully selfish ⁓ and just coming alive. So that’s a long answer to your question.

 

DI (08:00)

Yeah.

 

And can I ask, did the marriage make it or did you?

 

NATTY (08:12)

Yes, my god, yes. Wow. Yeah, so we’re 23 years in.

 

DI (08:16)

congratulations. That’s pretty cool because you were right up against the glass of walking away by the sounds of it.

 

NATTY (08:24)

I had a lawyer. Yeah. I was, yeah, I was, I was ready to go and, you know, he said, let’s, you know, let’s, let’s try it a different way. And, you know, I don’t believe in sunshine and rainbows and unicorns and everything’s perfect. You know, it’s just, that’s bullshit as far as I’m concerned. So I’ve, ⁓ committed this marriage. We are friends. We have shit. Of course. Right.

 

DI (08:51)

Have a shit. Yeah.

 

NATTY (08:53)

I’ve coached hundreds of women and even ones who were happily married. You know, we all think about burning it down from moment to moment, to month. I mean, come on.

 

DI (09:10)

We do. I’m just about to hit 20 years and you know, right? You’d be lying if you said it was all good. That’s just not how the world works.

 

NATTY (09:20)

be lying. But this is the thing is that like people do lie and people do pretend. And that is what I’m here to help dismantle is that the more women that can actually tell the truth and show their cards and be honest.

 

about where they are in their lives, I mean, the stronger their collective becomes, right? We don’t have to do this work alone. It’s like we’ve been taught to pretend. We’ve been taught to like say, I’m fine. It’s all good. When on the inside, we’re dying. And that’s where it was 10 years ago. You know, everyone thought that I had it all.

 

DI (10:05)

So with the work you’re doing with high achieving women and them getting really honest with themselves, is there a common thread going around and the narrative of commonality or is it all unique?

 

NATTY (10:21)

It’s pretty common. It’s pretty common. It’s, it’s, I’ve checked every box, but I still feel empty. I miss feeling sexy and free and alive. I’m exhausted from holding it all together for everyone. ⁓ I want more, but I don’t even know what that looks like. They’re all carrying so much and

 

They’re terrified that wanting more makes them selfish or a bad person or ungrateful. ⁓ But they’re really craving a life where they feel fully themselves, where they feel purposeful, where they feel on fire, where they feel free. ⁓ So it’s really same, same.

 

DI (11:12)

Yeah and in terms of, mean I’m asking this almost knowing the answer but I’m often surprised. What is the common age where the wheels start to fall off?

 

NATTY (11:24)

45, 46 when they start to fall off. ⁓

 

50 when they decide something has to change. Yeah.

 

It’s like a magic moment. It’s I don’t know whether it’s like it’s just the halfway point. It’s a really clean line. But 50 just seems to be like a switch.

 

DI (11:40)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sure is, but…

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk about pleasure because I know that’s one of your ⁓ big calling cards. Yeah. Why do so many women disconnect from it? What’s the reason?

 

NATTY (12:10)

Well, we live in a patriarchal society that has completely disconnected us from pleasure because we’re taught from a very early age

 

DI (12:21)

to

 

perform.

 

NATTY (12:24)

Yeah, exactly. To perform, to slap a smile on our face, to produce, to please everyone around us but ourselves. And those narratives, you I call it the patriarchal pathway. So, you know, it’s a very well-worn pathway for how a woman should be in the world, right? So you should do well in school.

 

You should dress like a lady, cross your legs. Notice my legs up on my desk. I’m actively rebelling. ⁓ You know, do well in school. ⁓ You know, level up in your career. Find a man to marry, have children, continue, you know, please take care of, be the epicenter of this family. Take care of everyone else. Be the emotional caregiver and the physical caregiver. And

 

You know, it doesn’t stop, right? We emotionally care give our male partners. you know, we just never have, has anyone taught us to be in touch with what we want or what turns us on, right? And

 

you know, when I talk about pleasure, people’s minds immediately go to the hypersexual. Yeah. But it isn’t just about sex. That’s one part of it. That’s one end of the spectrum. But really pleasures anything that lights you up, anything that engages your senses and makes you feel alive. It’s it’s dancing to your favorite music. It’s eating.

 

your lunch, you know, outside on your stoop in the sunshine, right? It’s deep belly laughs with like your sisterhood. It’s also maybe stillness in the forest. It’s so unique, right? But pleasure is also deep presence with yourself. It’s like the moment where you drop out of your head and into your body. And

 

you learn over time as you practice pleasure and you pump more of this into your life, you know, what turns you on? What are the things that make you feel alive? And then that way, becoming present to pleasure becomes super powerful because we can begin to shift. We can use it as a compass to kind of begin to shift our lives in that direction. And, ⁓ I you can start small,

 

But then, you know, I’m 10 years in and, you know, I’m like going dancing in Ibiza next month with a group of girlfriends, you know, I’m going to see a concert in Amsterdam in three months. it’s like I’m just can’t stop won’t stop because it feels so good.

 

DI (15:18)

Yeah.

 

So when you’ve got these women in the room that you’re coaching Natty and you ask them, do they have pleasure in their lives? What’s the answer? What are they saying?

 

NATTY (15:33)

⁓ Well, it’s a mix of answers mostly like know what is pleasure. I don’t know what you mean, you yeah

 

DI (15:39)

That’s what I thought it would be. Yeah. Because there would be a word that isn’t in their vocab.

 

NATTY (15:44)

Well, usually by the time people work with me, they followed me for a while. So they know a little bit about what I’m, what I’m saying. But if someone’s brand new to my world, there’s a little bit of education that’s happening. And, you know, oftentimes I’ll ask the question, what did you love to do when you were a kid? So, you know, maybe it’s, you know, playing in the woods, maybe it’s dancing and we look for ways to.

 

bring that back into the surface of their everyday lives. Right? If you love to dance when you were a kid, you know, go take up a shuttle lesson. You know, see if you can get that feeling back in your body. We’re the same person. Yeah. The things that turned us on at seven are going to turn us on at 57.

 

DI (16:30)

So for the woman listening who hasn’t tapped into that yet, what’s one small thing she could do to turn up the dial?

 

NATTY (16:40)

I love this. ⁓ One question I love for women to ask themselves regularly, and I would encourage your listeners to do this, is to take 60 seconds, take a deep breath, close your eyes, come into your body and ask yourself the question, what would feel really good right now?

 

It’s so simple. But when I’m feeling a little bit off or I know I need a break or I’m sitting at my desk too long and I say, you know, what would feel really good right now? ⁓ Sometimes it’s just like stretching on my yoga mat next to my desk. Sometimes it’s like hitting my favorite Spotify playlist. Sometimes it’s a hot bath or like I always have a hot cup of tea.

 

So starting to tune in. Your body is brilliant and she will respond. It could be as simple as go get a glass of water.

 

DI (17:49)

Yeah.

 

NATTY (17:50)

But just that one question.

 

DI (17:52)

Yeah, interesting. So coming up, let’s talk about redefining aging and visibility.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So touching on aging, what’s the biggest misconception people have about it? How long have we got?

 

NATTY (18:19)

Yeah, this exactly. The biggest misconception is that aging is the decline, that it’s loss, that it’s, you know, irrelevance. It’s complete bullshit. Aging is our superpower. Yes. mean, aging is my wisdom, right? It’s my sharper boundaries. It’s giving fewer fucks about what other people think. It’s

 

you know, finally feeling free enough to just be yourself. mean, most of us are taught to dread aging, but I mean, I woke up, you know, at 40 and realized I’d been following these rules, all these rules that hadn’t made me happy and decided to stop being smaller, younger, quiet, you know, stop.

 

being the smaller version of myself and what I’ve realized now almost a decade later is all the fires I’ve walked through and that every single woman I’ve ever worked with has walked through. Like if you look back in your life and you look at all of the portals of transformation, like leaving people, changing jobs, know, moving house, raising children maybe, and like the hard crunchy moments, that is wisdom.

 

That is deep, deep wisdom. feel like I have never been smarter than I am or wiser than I am right now.

 

DI (19:50)

Yeah, he’s to that.

 

NATTY (19:52)

Yeah, and every woman I work with is so damn wise, so I’m just like, age, bring it on.

 

DI (20:00)

So you’ve come from the world of advertising. How much of that world hasn’t caught up? Because if I see another ad for an aged care home for saying women in their 50s look gray and finished, I mean…

 

NATTY (20:17)

I don’t know if we’re ever going to break free from that narrative, to be honest. mean, I think we’re in the middle of something right now that feels really powerful. This reclamation of the feminine, of feminine power, the reclamation of aging women, the reclamation of midlife. I mean, it’s in the water right now. And that’s fricking amazing.

 

DI (20:45)

I mean just jump on Instagram. It’s being shouted. I mean…

 

NATTY (20:49)

Yeah,

 

it is being shouted and I think it’s going to take us. Now it’s going to take more of us. that’s, you know, that’s one of the reasons why I do this work. It’s like the ripple effect of this work. The more women that I can work with, the more people I can connect with to, you know, show them, you know, the bullshit rules that we have been living under and how and to start disrupt them.

 

you know, the better off we all will be. But I mean, the beauty industry, let’s face it, it’s, I mean, how many billion dollar industry is it? You know, I haven’t looked it up recently, but it’s got to be in the hundreds of billions, right? Yeah. I think the most power that I have and anyone who has children, like I’ve got two daughters who are 21 and 20. And, you know, we just have these conversations all the time.

 

DI (21:44)

the men around you saying as they see what you’re doing and what you’re advocating? Are they on board? Are they challenged? What are they saying?

 

NATTY (21:54)

The people in my life are all about it. I mean, they are, you know, my fierce advocates. ⁓ My husband is a feminist. He is, you know, really at my back. ⁓ My dad, who is a 78 year old Italian American guy, thinks this is really fucking cool. And ⁓

 

You know, it gets a little uncomfortable when I use the word pussy. But, you know, but he’s on board. You know, I have two brothers, you know, I know they’re proud of me. ⁓ So and to be honest, I don’t have anyone in my life who isn’t on my side. I’m done with that. Yeah. Like the people in my life are

 

DI (22:44)

Yeah, they don’t need.

 

NATTY (22:53)

My kind of people.

 

DI (22:54)

Yeah, brilliant. So for women listening who might not feel that power yet and still pleasures and still feel the pressure that they have to toe the line, what’s a shift around redefining how they age appropriately? Because I mean, that’s a phrase we grew up with.

 

NATTY (23:19)

Yeah, I guess it would start by maybe asking yourself or even journaling on this question, like, what have I gained with age? Great question. Instead of counting their wrinkles, count your courage. Like, actually look back.

 

It’s a great practice because we’re survivors. Yep. We’re survivors. I mean, it’s just in our DNA.

 

DI (23:56)

And visibility is one of these huge topics that I think as the midlife woman approaches that certain age that they struggle with. I doubt that you struggle with visibility. It’s not one of my things that I struggle with, but I’m sure you’re talking to women every day who feel like they’re shrinking from view. How do you walk into a room

 

NATTY (24:21)

Yeah.

 

DI (24:25)

and really start to show up and change that narrative both literally and in your own mind.

 

NATTY (24:35)

I think when we think about visibility sometimes, or we think about owning a room, ⁓ we have a picture in our heads of a very masculine way of owning a room. owning a room in the way we’ve seen people own rooms before is this kind of power over idea, know, like, ⁓ yeah, kind of in an arrogant kind of way. And

 

Women, think, have a very special power, is that we can own a room just by our presence. We don’t need to jockey for position. It’s just being deeply present and walking into a space and feeling like I belong here, being grounded in your body, making eye contact.

 

speaking slowly, not trying to prove yourself, right? Letting your authenticity shine, your quirks, your humor, your wisdom, your truth. And there are some small shifts that women can make before walking into a room, taking a really deep breath, standing up straight.

 

rolling your shoulders back, you know, lifting your chest a little bit. And, you know, instead of thinking to yourself, I hope they like me. One question that I ask myself is, do I even like them?

 

DI (26:20)

Yeah, that’s gonna say flip the narrative. And the latter opens you up. The former shrinks you down physically.

 

NATTY (26:29)

Yeah, it does that the latter is curiosity, right? It’s like huh and thinking about like who in that room would I like to connect with? Mm-hmm instead of thinking they’re walking into a room of 30 people Who am I curious about? Yeah, and connect with that one human being

 

DI (26:46)

Yeah.

 

When did you walk into a room and really feel that sense of presence and that sense of groundedness? How old were you?

 

NATTY (27:01)

When I felt presence and groundedness, hmm. I think I rea- to be honest, I ha- I felt that way my whole life probably until I got into a boardroom.

 

And when I got into a boardroom, I thought to myself, I’m not smart enough to be here.

 

And I don’t know enough. I don’t know enough about financials. I can’t add anything to this conversation. And it’s actually regretfully ended up leaving that position ⁓ because of that. I think I mean, I told my son. Yeah. It’s man, do I regret that. But I just.

 

I do. mean, and that was probably, you know, 12 years ago. I think I was overwhelmed. had small kids. I told myself I couldn’t ⁓ handle the time commitment, but really it was me feeling like I didn’t belong.

 

You were invited there for a reason.

 

People want you there because of who you are and what you bring to the table. And we are so conditioned to believe that our worth is tied up with how many degrees we have or ⁓ what’s on your resume. But really, our power comes from how we think outside the box, how we connect with other human beings.

 

And in retrospect, I’m really great at those two things. And that’s probably why I was invited into the room.

 

DI (28:47)

Yeah, you missed the cue. Yeah. So I’m going to, I typically do a one bold question and answer to close, but Natty, I’m going to change it up a little bit with you because I think this is kind of your jam. So if we could do a couple of rapid fire responses, I would love your thoughts on three questions.

 

NATTY (28:50)

I miss the cube.

 

Okay, okay, let’s do it.

 

DI (29:17)

So what one rule midlife women should break immediately?

 

NATTY (29:22)

Stop apologizing for wanting more.

 

DI (29:26)

Love it. What brings you pleasure right now?

 

NATTY (29:31)

Dancing in my kitchen with my husband.

 

DI (29:35)

And if you could finish this sentence, the most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is…

 

NATTY (29:43)

Trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.

 

DI (29:56)

And there you have it. Natty, fantastic and you’re absolutely right, this village of women out there promoting midlife women, there’s plenty on my side of the globe and there’s plenty on your side of the globe. And we’ve got to get out there and shout from the rooftops because

 

We’ve got to change that narrative of the misconception of what midlife looks like. It’s a starting point, it’s not a finishing point.

 

NATTY (30:27)

Mmm, it is. It’s a launch pad. It’s a launch pad.

 

DI (30:32)

Absolutely. And I mean, you would have seen it where you are. I mean, it’s why there are so many 50 plus year old female entrepreneurs just burgeoning because we’re sick of following the rules. We finally understand what we’ve got to offer and we’ve got the confidence, the wisdom and the lived experience to get out there and do it.

 

NATTY (30:55)

We do, we do. Amen.

 

DI (30:59)

Amen. Brilliant. Nadi, an absolute delight to have you on the Power of Women podcast. It’s taken us a couple of goes to get there, but we finally have.

 

NATTY (31:11)

Thank

 

you for your patience.

 

DI (31:15)

⁓ you’re welcome. And I put it to anybody listening to today’s episode of ask yourself what is bringing you pleasure. Until next time.

 

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Bald As A Badger … When All My Hair Fell Out!

Bald As A Badger … When All My Hair Fell Out!

What happens when the very thing you’ve always been known for, your appearance, suddenly changes?

In this solo episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, I share my raw and deeply personal journey with Alopecia totalis. When all my hair fell out, leaving me bald as a badger, as the saying goes.

What began as an identity-shattering experience of losing all my hair became one of the most defining lessons in resilience I’ve ever lived through. From brutal medical treatments and moments of despair, to unexpected acts of kindness and the courage to speak out, this chapter of my life reshaped not only who I am but also how I show up in the world.

This story starts in 1999, when out of the blue, I developed Alopecia totalis. For someone who had always been known for her long blonde hair, the slow, torturous process of watching it fall out strand by strand was devastating.

Western medicine offered little compassion and even fewer solutions. I endured thousands of cortisone injections, harsh treatments, and blunt words from specialists who saw me as a case rather than a person. None of this was done with any level of compassion or support. It was the most clinical, gut-wrenching experience.

Eventually, alternative therapies, Chinese herbal medicine, and a long journey of healing led to my hair regrowth.

However, this story isn’t just about alopecia. It’s about reclaiming power, resilience, and the courage to speak out. Lessons I now carry into every episode of the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

In this episode, we explore:

The emotional impact of Alopecia totalis and the identity shift it forced.

Why Western medicine wasn’t the answer for me, and the path toward alternative therapies.

The lowest moment of my journey — and how I pulled myself back.

Building a wig business to create solutions for myself and others.

The random act of kindness that still stays with me.

Lessons in resilience, self-worth, and speaking out to support others.

 

This is some of what I said:

“I am far more than how I look. I have the resilience to pull myself back from the darkest moment of my life.”

“If you have the courage to speak out about adversity to help others, that is something I cannot stress enough as being a fabulous thing to do.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the FULL TRANSCRIPT of this conversation here: 👉

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Di Gillett (00:08)

Hey, I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and experience of women from all walks of life. And today, since I launched the podcast some 18 months ago, I have put all my energy into sharing the stories of some truly incredible and amazing women.

 

But what I’ve realised is that I actually have a few powerful stories and lessons of my own to share that hopefully will inspire and support others. And I also want to give a shout out to Tori Archbold and thank her for the time we’ve spent together which has afforded me a bigger picture view of what’s next for Power of Women.

 

So the story I want to open up with today is one that I actually shared on all of my social platforms over the last couple of weeks. And that is when in 1999, out of the blue, I developed Alopecia totalis. Now I was defined by my looks. Sadly, I…

 

openly admit that. I had long blonde hair, lots of people would comment on it and give me positive feedback. It was my one crowning aspect of my character that I prided myself on. So what happened in 1999 and it was horrendous and it was this slow torturous experience that started

 

six months earlier where one day at the hairdressers they commented that I had a little bit of hair missing above my ears on both sides of my head. And that slowly became this increasing pattern of baldness that went from my ears to the top of my head over a period of six months. And it was identical

 

in the way it fell out on both sides of my head. So it was following this very distinct pattern. Getting in the shower each morning and looking down on the shower floor and seeing loads and loads of my prized blonde hair on the shower floor was absolutely gutting. And I can remember going to a particular

 

dermatologist in the CBD where I was living at the time, my first question was, am I going to lose all my hair? And he very bluntly, without any sugar coating, said, probably. And then proceeded in that particular visit to his clinic to inject up to 2,000 cortisone needles into my rapidly balding head.

 

was agonizing and I can remember saying to him I can hear the needles actually piercing the skin. You could hear that pop where that syringe was actually breaking through the surface of the skin and I pointed that out to this practitioner and he said I’m sorry the needles probably got blunt where we’ve hit the scalp.

 

None of this was done with any level of compassion or support. It was the most clinical gut-wrenching experience. And I had walked out of my office to come to this appointment. And I remember jumping on a tram to take the ride back to the office and my head was spinning. I’d just been told all of my hair was going to fall out. I’d just had this agonizing treatment that was delivered in the most brutal manner.

 

And the messaging from this specialist was beyond words. So then various journeys, I started to think, what am I going to do? And I kept down the Western medicine path, which saw me land at the clinic, another clinic in my hometown of probably one of Australia’s preeminent dermatologists. And that was a really short-lived relationship. And it was

 

One that ended in a manner which is not uncommon with me if I find something doesn’t fit with my beliefs or my ideas or my values, I speak out and I speak out in a direct and blunt manner. So I started to visit this second specialist who was also a dermatologist and in the world of hair loss there’s a whole lot of other sub-specialists that branch off, trichologists and all sorts of things.

 

and that had been an unsuccessful journey. So I’m at the rooms of this second dermatologist and his process was similar to the first. Inject you with cortisone and then he would apply this acidic tincture to my nail balding scalp and put you under this heat lamp for an intense period in what was for all intents and purposes a celerium.

 

And after the third session with this preeminent dermatologist, I said to him, I think your whole process is deeply flawed. And here’s my reasons why. You’re injecting me with cortisone, and cortisone is going to cause pits in my bones and irreparable damage. You’re putting this acidic tincture on my head and then putting me under a heat lamp, which there is no doubt over time is going to give me skin cancer.

 

So I’m beginning to get suspicious about, know, this is a lifelong engagement until I have no life left with these specialists because one cure causes something else. And his delivery of that was, well, if you don’t believe what I’m doing, don’t bother coming back. I won’t say on this podcast quite what my direct response with it because it is packed full of expletives, but suffice to say you could not have

 

me to walk back through his doors for another appointment ever again. So then I thought I don’t know what I’m going to do. By this stage I am nearly bald. Nearly bald. I’m starting to wear bandanas. I’m starting to explore what to do with wigs. And at the same time I thought I need to start to look beyond Australia for a cure because I couldn’t find anything here.

 

And I started to do some research and look at international marketplaces. It seemed at the time that Princess Caroline of Monaco was tackling a similar issue that she wasn’t overly public about, but I’d found a few threads. And keep in mind in 1999, the internet certainly wasn’t the resource tool that it is today and chat GPT did not exist.

 

So I kept looking at alternative medicine. My biggest problem with Western medicine was that the whole approach to treating this hair loss, which had been termed alopecia totalis, because I was now losing my eyelashes, my eyebrows, all of the hair on my body, which in some respects was a great thing, in other respects was just a nightmare, was that the Western medicine approach to this was to treat

 

the condition on the surface to treat the after the event where clearly something in my system or in my life or in my surroundings had actually caused this and Western medicine had no interest in that. So the journey went on and I went to naturopaths and all sorts of things and I had some horrendous experiences along the way.

 

And some of those were I was now close to bald with just a small amount of hair at the top of my head, which if I wore a bandana, allowed me to have sort of some thinning strands down the side of my bandana, which kind of didn’t necessarily announce to the world that I was completely bald. So with my corporate suits going into a CBD office every day,

 

I integrated a bandana into part of my look. The problem with doing that though was in going and pitching for business and I was in the recruitment and search space was that when you’re trying to pitch for business with clients that might be a particular campaign that was going to last for months and months and months, you could see it all over the client’s face that they had some reticence around engaging you.

 

because they actually didn’t know whether you were going to be around for that many months because the assumption of hair loss was immediately cancer. So I realised there and then that I had to actually share what I was going through openly, otherwise the commercial fallout of that was going to impact my financial future. And whilst I was in a relationship at the time,

 

There was no financial support from that relationship and long story short, that relationship which was loaded with coercive control was probably one of the many causal factors that actually kicked off this alopecia totalis which falls into the autoimmune family. I had to show up my financial future and I can remember some

 

really awful experiences. went to a client meeting one side of town on a particular windy day with my bandana on and I decided to walk back to the office which was probably, I don’t know, about five city blocks across town. Windy day, roaring north wind and halfway back heading back for another meeting at my office, my bandana flew off.

 

And here I am stuck in the middle of the city in a bright red suit which in its own right stood out. My bandana had blown off and I am standing there with a few bloody strands of hair blowing in the wind and I was absolutely gutted. And I remember walking past a particular shop in the city which was the tie rack which specialised in men’s ties and

 

and all sorts of scarves. And the woman, when I was walking past the front of the store, saw me and beckoned me to come in. And she had realized what was happening. And she offered me a bandana. And she tied it on my head, wouldn’t let me pay for it, and set me on my way back to my office. And that

 

a bit like an episode that I’m also releasing this week with Hannah Asafiri was my own personal experience of a random act of kindness that has stuck with me for years. So my balding journey is continuing and I am now down to literally a 20 cent piece circle of hair left on the top of my head.

 

which at this stage is still long. hadn’t brought myself to be able to do anything with it other than to hang on to it for dear life. And I can remember making the decision to shave that bit off with my then partner’s home shaver because he had a number one blade. And whilst it was one single sweep of the shaver to take it off, it was the…

 

most challenging thing to do and probably took me 20 minutes to actually take that one sweep and shave it off. Another thing that had happened before I had done that, the company that I was with required us all to go to Sydney for a promotional tour where my business was partnering with the global brand Monster.

 

as a promotional campaign and I remember it required us to walk around Sydney CBD literally wearing sandwich boards promoting the launch of Monster. It was September and it was blowing a gale in Sydney and I now have it embedded in my brain that September is the windiest month of the year in Australia and it was similar to that experience of losing my bandana.

 

between meetings previously where walking around the city literally with people looking at you because you’re walking around with this sandwich board on as a walking billboard, wearing a bandana, looking like I was on my last legs, it was probably one of the most horrendous tasks at that point in time to be asked to do.

 

And we also had a black tie event with the company on the final evening of our billboard walking. And I backed out of that because I just couldn’t work out how to front up to this black tie event and make a bandana work and make it work in terms of presenting me as a perfectionist as I wanted to present. So we come back to Melbourne after that Sydney visit and two days after

 

I’m on my way to the office. My then partner was driving me to work that morning. And I said to him, I can’t go in. I’m going to ring them and tell them I just can’t go in. And so I made a phone call into the office and spoke to my then line manager who said to me, why aren’t you coping? The bluntness of his reaction of aren’t I coping with losing my hair, going bald, can’t find a cure.

 

just gutted me. And I went back home. My then partner went off to work and I was home alone and I had to say I hit probably the darkest moment of my life. And I actually seriously contemplated not staying around. I seriously contemplated my own demise. And I sat with that for a few hours.

 

And in sitting with that for a few hours and writing down on it, not in a journal at that point in time, but on a piece of paper, I did two columns. What I couldn’t cope with and another column, what could I change? I couldn’t cope with how I looked. I couldn’t cope with how I felt. And I couldn’t cope with the fact that I couldn’t find a cure. And I also couldn’t cope

 

with the fact that I couldn’t find any wigs that fitted me and that was a big part of not being able to control how I looked. On the right hand side of what I could control, I could control speaking out about what I was feeling rather than hiding it. I could, if I put my skills and my network to the test,

 

solve or start to work on a solution for wigs, if I actually started to develop my own wigs that would fit my particularly small head, which was the issue with wigs in the marketplace at that time. And as such, I could then control how I face the world. So the right-hand column won out and

 

I set about starting a small wig business, not really from a commercial venture, more from my own personal use. Albeit I sold and gave away a few to other people that I started to come into contact with through what was an alopecia network within my home state. I also started to advocate for people, particularly children struggling with alopecia because I found that I had a voice

 

that I could speak out about it and talk publicly rather than hiding behind what was happening to me. And I found strength in that and I could share that strength with kids because kids going through an alopecia journey, be it partial or total baldness, in the schoolyard found themselves in a very difficult place. And the schoolyard, as we know, is somewhere where bullying is rife.

 

And for somebody with any points of difference or something that made them look strange or look odd, made them a target for bullying. So I started to do some work there. The other thing I started to do was I thought I could do more than just talk about this. I could put pen to paper and start to write a book. And my working title for the book was Bulled as a Badger. And I

 

did garner the interest of two publishing houses. And I started that book, but I have to say regrettably, I never finished it. And maybe that’s something in my unfinished journey again. So I’m still exploring cures. I’m now completely bald. I can’t find a cure. And a friend, in fact, the wife of a friend of mine,

 

coercive controlling partner suggested that rather than look internationally and do all of this exploring that I was doing, she recommended a very alternative therapist who she put a lot of trust in that was in my hometown in Melbourne. So I made an appointment and drove down to this particular clinic.

 

And I can never forget walking in the door. was this very rudimentary clinic, in almost a semi-industrial part of Melbourne. And it had a pale blue facade. And the place was called Inerchi and the practitioner was Doug Davies. And in those days, my attire, my work attire was corporate suits and stiletto heels.

 

And I remember walking into the doors to this very alternative clinic where on the right was a counter and behind that counter was just jars and jars and jars of Chinese medicinal herbs. And on the left was the waiting room and everybody in the waiting room was sitting with their shoes off that they had put on this rack just inside the door. And those shoes were primarily Birkenstocks and all varieties of flat shoes. And the only pair of Louboutin

 

high heels on that rack were mine. And I hadn’t met Doug at this stage and he walked out to his next appointment, which was me, and he looked at the shoe rack and he looked around and saw me sitting there in a corporate suit and said, Diane, I said yes. And that started the beginning of an incredible relationship with Doug and a two to two and a half year journey of twists and turns that

 

resulted in me opening my eyes, embracing very alternative therapies and meditation and yoga and a journey with Chinese herbs and custom-made tinctures that over the course of two and a half years got the most amazing result of getting my hair back. Now it wasn’t a linear journey. There were fits and starts. It would start to grow back. It would fall out.

 

Heartbreaking. Get back on track again, start to grow, we change the medicines. And if anybody’s done Chinese herbal medicine, when somebody asks you to boil these Chinese herbs up into a tea, you know it makes the residents that you might be sharing with anybody else absolutely unlivable because the pungent smell of the tea is unforgettable. And it also takes time. So I’d said to Doug, look,

 

This whole process is adding more stress into my world when stress is part of my problem. And I need a different solution. I need you to grind these herbs down and turn them into capsules that I can swallow instead of boiling the teas. And he said to me, that’ll take more time. I said, I appreciate that. That I am prepared to acknowledge, but it is the only way I can integrate this ⁓

 

Process that I’m going through with you into my life without it becoming another part of the problem Which big ticket was probably stress from relationships stress from work stress from being a perfectionist Poor blood flow from having broken my back in a skiing accident many years prior All of these things were an amalgam of things that had my body stiffen up that the net result was Blood flow was compromised to my head

 

that ultimately led to the hair loss. Now whether in fact my hair loss was an autoimmune disorder, which I actually really question, and whether it was more these causal effects that had caused stress in my body to stiffen and in fact compromise blood flow, which I actually think was more to the point. Through that time, I referred many other

 

Women in particular who had suffered hair loss, some who had been bald for over 20 years, I referred them to Doug and they started their own amazing journeys of recovery. And one of the proudest moments was leading into Doug Davies finally retiring some, I think probably 10 years ago now, was when they reached out and asked me to write a testimonial for a book that was being written as part of his… ⁓

 

retirement exit and sitting down and putting a small testimonial to paper that was reflective of this journey was probably one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to put to paper because it had all of those emotions flooding back up and that was probably the first time that I had revisited that story for about 10 years. But I do want to say what this particular journey which

 

covered the period of 1999 to 2004 where I was just coming into, for the first time, having a full head of short hair when I met my husband George Danekian at a best friend’s wedding. And I remember going on a walk along the beach with George as one of our first dates. And it was the first time I had walked along the waterfront not afraid

 

of the wind either blowing off my bandana or my wig for the first time in four years. And I can’t tell you how impactful, it’s making me emotional talking about it, how impactful that was to actually take that walk along the beach without fear of being exposed literally. So that four year journey taught me that I am in fact

 

more than how I look because over that four-year journey I was headhunted twice for significant roles in the recruitment and search space. I also learned that I had the resilience to pull myself back from the darkest moment of my life and identify what I had to live for. And I also identified that I had the courage to speak out publicly

 

about what I was experiencing as a means of helping others and that was probably one of the most important learnings of all. One of my failures though out of this was I did say at the time when I’d started to get my hair back that I would never be defined by my hair ever again. Well for those who know what I look like today and it’s now 2025

 

You would have to say I probably never been more defined by my hair in any other point in time in my life than I am today because it is the first statement that probably people notice about me when I walk through the door. So that’s a failure. However, what I am never fazed by is the fact that at any day when my hairdo doesn’t work, I don’t call that a bad hair day because when you have had a hair day,

 

bad hair day that is actually losing your hair, that changes the benchmark for what a bad hair day is. So I don’t have any bad hair days. So if I can leave you with those three lessons about what I really felt were the most impactful, I am more than I look. I am far more than what I look like. That I have the resilience to pull myself back from my darkest moments.

 

and I believe you do too, and that if you have the courage to speak out about adversity and things that you’ve experienced in your life to help others, to really help others get back on their journey to recovery, whatever that journey might be, that is something I cannot stress enough as being a fabulous thing to do. So.

 

I am going to do more episodes at the Power of Women that are solo episodes because I think I do have some stories to share, not all out of adversity, but stories to share that hopefully might inspire others in the same way as some of the incredible stories that I am privileged to share with you through the podcast interviews with the amazing women that I’m bringing to the table and giving a platform through the Power of Women podcast.

 

I’m going to do the same with just a few more stories like this where I speak to you one on one. I hope it resonated. I hope it’s helpful. Until next time.

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She’s a Champion of Women and a True Visionary For Societal Change

She’s a Champion of Women and a True Visionary For Societal Change

She is Hana Assafiri.

What does it mean to turn adversity into purpose? In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, I sit down with Hana Assafiri OAM — activist, entrepreneur, and founder of the Moroccan Soup Bar. She is a relentless champion of women and a true visionary advocating for societal change. And her life story is a testament to resilience, defiance, and the audacity to seek freedom.

Born to Lebanese and Moroccan parents, Hana’s upbringing stretched between Australia and Lebanon. At just 15, she was forced into an arranged marriage, confronting both personal violence and systemic failures. Her story is not one of victimhood but of refusing to be defined by it.

Hana reveals how the small kindnesses of strangers, a shop assistant who treated her with dignity, a teacher who cared, shaped her path forward. Those acts of humanity became the seeds of her own mission: to create spaces of safety, dignity, and empowerment for women.

The Moroccan Soup Bar, founded in 1998, is one of those spaces. What began as a kitchen staffed by women seeking refuge has evolved into a model of community, employment, and healing.

Her recently published memoir, The Audacity to Be Free, expands on these themes, challenging us to rethink freedom, gender roles, and the role men must play as allies in addressing violence. Hana is unflinching: “The solution must be driven by women, supported by men.”

 

In this episode, we explore:

The meaning of life and freedom beyond survival

Cultural expectations, arranged marriage, and systemic failures

Acts of kindness that can change the course of a life

 

As Hana explains:

“Life doesn’t come with a trigger warning.”

“Women don’t need pity and charity. What they need is pathways and opportunities.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

HANA (00:00)

Hi, Hannah Asafiri. What am I defining in the three or four rapid fire points? The meaning for life, I think, maybe I’ll start there, for me is whatever setting in whatever capacity that you leave those circumstances in a somewhat better predicament than when you found them. And that is, I guess, my foundational value for life, whether I find myself

 

⁓ one-on-one with individuals in social settings, advocating and or speaking to politicians, parliamentarians or the king or queen. That ultimately what drives me and what gives my life meaning is that. And sadly, we’re living in a world where ⁓ those tensions are much more real and require in us to take greater risks and responsibilities in preserving the very values.

 

that can ensure a better kind of fairer world. ⁓ And as women, think, which is the other layer, ⁓ being mindful of the profound inequality and the spaces that women have to navigate, also with it comes the opportunity for us to rethink how ⁓ better outcomes are possible through women’s contribution. So in a sense, the hope

 

for me ⁓ is what defines me and that is that the world can be better, kinder, fairer, more humane.

 

DI (01:37)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, the resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. But today we’re going to ask somewhat a deeper question. What does it mean to be free? And that is something that so many of us literally take for granted. Or is it something more

 

that we need to explore around that? Is it the power to build a sanctuary for others, even if you had to burn your own world down to escape? This is a story of a woman who was told to be silent, to make herself small and to fit into a world that had no room for her spirit. It’s the story of Hannah Asafiri. In Melbourne, Australia, that name is spoken with a reverence usually

 

save for community heroes and culinary legends. But before she was a celebrated activist and a radical entrepreneur, she was a girl trapped in a cage not of her own making. Today’s guest knows exactly what it takes to find freedom, not just for herself but for countless others. Hannah Asafiri, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

HANA (02:59)

Dear Lord, thank you, Di, and thank you for that amazing introduction. Gosh, I think I can leave now and that kind of sums it up. I’ll just not disappoint going further, but yes.

 

DI (03:11)

Well, I think the introduction deserves a bit of a deep dive because there’s one hell of a story behind that. So, but before we begin, could I just want to say when we spoke off air and I said to you, do we need to do a trigger warning about anything that we are going to talk about today? I’m going to pause there because your response, I think, says it all. Because You said to me,

 

life doesn’t come with a trigger warning.

 

HANA (03:44)

And it doesn’t. And sadly, for many in the main, women and girls and children, and this is commonplace, that these conversations, ⁓ it is really sad. They don’t come with trigger warnings. and yet they are so pervasive. They’re a common experience for many of us. That said, it is important, I think, for people to know that there’s support, there’s help, that these are conversations that

 

⁓ don’t and are not afforded the appropriate spaces to talk about them, that we keep them hidden and we keep the responsibility and the onus on those who endure violence and abuse and trauma and leave them to their own devices or therapy or whatever it is. But as a society, we don’t talk about them effectively. And if and when we do, we

 

cotton wool them with trigger warnings and if you want to leave, leave the room. Well, life isn’t like that sadly. And that way of discussing these issues I don’t think is making inroads into changing attitudes and the very drivers of these attitudes. We need to be able to talk about them matter of fact. We need to be able to talk about them honestly and shift the shame, isolation, humiliation,

 

that those who endure ⁓ feel and place it where it belongs and it is with those who perpetrate these acts. ⁓ so, yes, I come back to, of course, life doesn’t give you trigger warnings, but also let’s ⁓ reimagine how we as those of us who’ve lived life ⁓ can respond and have this conversation and define how we talk about it.

 

DI (05:19)

mmm

 

Yeah, thank you. Could we start with your story and delve into some of that today, Hannah? What was it like growing up where tradition and culture often overshadowed your spirit?

 

HANA (05:54)

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s tradition and culture. think often times spirited children find themselves restricted by the conventions and the environments that they find themselves in.

 

DI (06:12)

she’s got nothing to do with that. That could be any of us.

 

HANA (06:14)

That’s right. ⁓ I think, you know, importantly, especially if you’re a young girl and then growing up to be a woman in a society that’s got clearly defined roles and, you know, you’ve got your predictable pathway to how, what you should aspire to and ⁓ marriage and children and all of that sort of stuff. And I think anything that exists outside of that is quickly tamed.

 

and dissuaded, we’re often dissuaded from, you know, the hair being camped, just having an honest expression of who you are. ⁓ And yes, with that, obviously different cultures have their own traditions and rituals that further contain, absolutely. So for me, growing up in a culture,

 

DI (06:50)

I’m out of here Hannah.

 

HANA (07:09)

initially in Australia, but then we moved, my mother’s Lebanese, my father’s Moroccan, we then moved to Lebanon for a time and it was during wars and ⁓ really high-stakes settings, but the contrast between Australia and Lebanon in the gendered roles and the expectations of women and girls was for me really confronting. ⁓

 

necessarily restricting ⁓ more the hypocrisy of the expectations. it? ⁓ Probably neither. think I was curious about who makes the rules about these. It was absurd. I think more than, there was an absurdity about men and boys moving in public spaces only.

 

DI (07:43)

confusing.

 

or confronting.

 

HANA (08:03)

and women being relegated to the domesticity of kitchens and houses and salons and whatever. And whilst in and of itself maybe to a child that would have been okay, but where it wasn’t okay is I was then expected to move in men and boys spaces to go and bring the food from the grocery store, get the bread and yet denied everything that came with it and all the freedoms that came with it. And I think that

 

then became my training ground for really pushing back a little bit and really formulating my identity around questioning why things the way they are, who makes these rules, because they were absurd. just were nonsensical. So it was more that.

 

DI (08:52)

Yet you found yourself, as I understand it, in an arranged marriage despite the fact that you had this strong sense of what was fair for the guys and not fair for the girls.

 

HANA (09:06)

So yes, arranged marriages and I think this is where I guess when, so we moved from Lebanon back to Australia and ⁓ in that space ⁓ my mother did not integrate and certainly back then, I’m talking 40 years ago, 50 years ago even, the integration of communities and cultures was not as sophisticated as it is now and still now it’s quite inadequate.

 

But back then, it was worse. So mum lived inside the four walls of the home and became more and more depressed and more and more isolated, more and more, and her sense of marginalization and understanding of the world was limited to the four walls. And from that space, I go back to she did her best in her care.

 

⁓ Sadly, part of ⁓ her way of extending care ⁓ was to go back to what she knew, and that is to organise and arrange a marriage for her children. But again, later we can talk about that if or if not. ⁓ The conditions around which I was married were ⁓ very difficult. They were a consequence of sexual abuse.

 

And the only way in her isolation, my mother knew how to deal with the reputational damage, what that would mean for my other siblings in young girls being marriageable or otherwise. So like many cultures and traditions, sweeping under the carpet, getting rid of the problem, marry her off. And I think whilst

 

Now I understand and certainly forgive. It wasn’t okay for the little girl that was me and nor is it okay for many others. I also think where these circumstances were allowed to happen, I was married at 15 in Australia.

 

And Australia allowed it at the time, again, because we find ourselves wanting to be culturally sensitive, wanting to ⁓ embrace different cultures. But when that approach lacks a gendered understanding, we then default to going to the men, hey, what are your issues? How do you, what is it that you need to feel that you belong in Australia? And all these…

 

DI (11:38)

Hmm

 

become complicit as a country.

 

HANA (11:53)

And the people that are defining those cultures, of course they’re going to define them from their perspective and from their privileges. So as men who have been the ones that are consulted over the years, they have said, well, you know, our culture requires that we are allowed to marry our children young, provided there’s guardian consent, et cetera, et cetera.

 

Governments, whilst well-meaning, and societies, whilst their endeavor is to ⁓ be inclusive, I think those issues, unless they’re informed by the intersectional experience of women, and unless women contribute to what defines those cultures, then in the end they land on the bodies, sadly, of women and children who

 

deal with the impact and consequences of the layered, for lack of a better word, misogyny, the layered ⁓ societal issues that we have to navigate. And I think for me, I try to understand many years later my arranged marriage within that context, instead of just blaming my mother or the government for allowing it, or the Imam for marrying us, or whatever it is. ⁓

 

And I think it’s actually freeing when we can understand our place in the world and begin to agitate for change so that others don’t have to endure.

 

DI (13:31)

What happened between the relationship between you and your mother early on? it, was that a point of friction?

 

HANA (13:39)

Absolutely not. And you know, sadly, I loved my mother dearly and dearly. We’d never had a fight our entire life. And the level of empathy was probably too close even. ⁓ And we as children, probably like many children of migrants, we become the adults. We become the doctors, the interpreters, the translators.

 

DI (14:04)

All the things that care

 

HANA (14:05)

That’s

 

right. And because especially that they can’t move freely in society, we then take on that role. And in that role, you’re not allowed to be a kid. In fact, you can’t be a kid. with mum, interestingly, she now passed. But I’ve always had this thing that, you know, she did her best, she loved us, she, in her own understanding of the world.

 

and simultaneously holding the experience that it wasn’t good enough, that ⁓ as a young girl who was hurt and harmed by some of those decisions, and then how do we, if we arrive at that place, how do we forgive?

 

DI (14:52)

You’d built a strength of character though as a young girl in Lebanon being frustrated for want of any other word of seeing what was the gender difference of what the boys could do versus what you could do. How did you then bring that strength of character and perhaps view of injustice into an arranged marriage and actually

 

Were you again diminished or did you find your voice in the marriage early?

 

HANA (15:27)

Well, sadly, the marriage was profoundly violent from the very outset, in fact, from the wedding night. And I did write about it and was mindful in writing about it also not to associate arranged marriages with violent marriages. I think there is a distinct difference. Some arranged marriages can be good.

 

And some, obviously, marriages that aren’t arranged are also violent. So I don’t think the issue is arranged marriages per se. And yet this guy, I mean, there was absolutely nothing in common. We had no compatibility. was somebody who, you know, we started by saying, I ask why, why is the world the way it is? Why isn’t it better?

 

and his mode of, know, was about it’s my way or the highway. And I was never, for many reasons, I was never going to be the person that just thought, well, that’s okay, it’s your way. And I was young and I was 15, he was years older than me. So communication was just not at all. ⁓ And his mode of…

 

communicating and relating was extraordinarily violent at every turn.

 

DI (16:58)

And you would have had any life skills to deal with that at that age?

 

HANA (17:01)

None. And on top of it, you know, we’re Muslim, raised Muslim, and I think I was one of the first Muslim young women in Australia who was really pushing back and seeking a divorce. In fact, I called my mum the night of my wedding after the initial act of slap across the face and said, get me out of here. What is this? no, no, no, no, we can’t. And what will people say in that hole?

 

And you know, you then become exposed to culture again, this culture that’s defined by somebody obscure that says, you must remain, you must endure, you must persevere, you must not provoke, and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, I left him four or five times and …

 

In that and during that time and I think what’s been really good for me and What’s given me endurance, defiance, resistance, resilience, whatever it is, is the kind act of strangers, people you never expected. Like the woman at Sussan who I would come in every day once he would leave and go to work and

 

I would jump out the window, literally, I was young and agile, could jump out the window and headlock the doors and I’d go, yeah right, ⁓ and go up to the local Sussan store and every day would imagine a world and a possibility that wasn’t the horror that I was living. ⁓ And like most people I think who live through violence and trauma, we dissociate.

 

For me, dissociation was also a positive thing because it allowed me to imagine a world ⁓ that was possible. and in that world I kind of really cultivated an alternative to the horror. ⁓ And the random strangers who existed in that world, the woman at Sussan who every day knew I would come in, jump out the window, come in. ⁓

 

And she would know I would never buy something. I never had the money, never had the means. He never gave me any and didn’t work and, you know, I children. And she would say, hello, can I help you? Every day as though I was someone new. I didn’t annoy her, even though I said, can I try this on, can I try that on? And began to wear jeans that I wasn’t allowed to wear and tried all this stuff on every day. And she, you know, did not tire from.

 

going, hello, can I help you? And I think to women like that and individuals like that, you have no idea about the impact you will have on the trajectory of somebody’s life. Act of kindness, not from people that are expected to be kind, but from random, whether it’s your teacher who goes over and above, whether it’s a stranger who says, you okay?

 

DI (19:58)

Through an act of kindness.

 

HANA (20:12)

whether it’s, And they’re the ones that I think are profoundly important in and through the experience of those of us that have at times been isolated and been violent. Absolutely, an important one.

 

DI (20:24)

It’s a memory that you hold. Yeah.

 

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, coming up, we’re going to talk about more about how Hannah became a beacon of empowerment and social change.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So Hannah, leaving the marriage wasn’t easy, but what it did expose for you was that the system was really failing women. What did you find?

 

HANA (21:03)

Look, absolutely, and I think, I mean, I wish there were other alternatives for me at the time, and I look back at some of those experiences, and they are heartbreaking, that there aren’t any real and meaningful options for women to be safe and free of violence and trauma. ⁓

 

in leaving whilst it was very difficult and multi-layered, you know, from the control of violence within the home to then the societal control that says you can’t leave, you are defined by being a divorcee or in our culture you can’t, or in our faith it is not a possible option and all those things. And then the legal system who deems you fit or unfit.

 

to care for your children without recognising the life that you are enduring and experiencing through and with a violent partner without understanding the consequences of that. You are deemed based on having left a certain way or then you are defined and judged by those events. So I think the…

 

At every level, individually, at a societal level, at a cultural level, at a legal institutional level, women have failed repeatedly. And I think it’s understandable why women stay and why the revolving door scenario women return. With that said, it’s then no surprise. I then went on to work in women’s services and for 13 years my life was

 

and continues to be, but in that iteration committed to law reform, to changing some of the interventions, at least at a social level, to shifting and challenging some of the attitudes that enabled and allowed violence to endure. So I did everything from working in direct service, picking up the phone, speaking to a woman in crisis, to then

 

looking at effective models and responses to women who are escaping violence and abuse, to even sitting on government, national, state level on advisory boards talking about this issue. And thankfully, and still inadequately, but certainly thankfully, law reform and the recognition that this isn’t just a domestic.

 

At least those conversations have changed. We’ve still got a very long way to go. But we’re certainly not where we once were.

 

DI (23:54)

Did your mother get to live to see you do this work? ⁓

 

HANA (23:58)

Yes,

 

yes, yes, yes. My mother got to live not only to see me do this work and often, you know, working with other younger Muslim women in similar predicaments at times and really challenging and rewriting traditions and customs ⁓ and slowly also watching the transition and change of some of my mother’s attitudes over the years. And my father.

 

And then obviously opening the Moroccan soup bar and ⁓

 

DI (24:34)

come to that because I want to talk about that.

 

HANA (24:37)

In

 

the domestic violence sector and responses, guess for me, the lens and the experience has always been about those on the margins and those ⁓ who the system fails and continues to let down. And I think not through ⁓ ill intent at all, yet the system continued to let down. ⁓

 

because it’s established in a way that is a band aid to the problem. is not.

 

DI (25:08)

It’s not addressing the cause. ⁓

 

HANA (25:11)

And I think after 13 years, there was one incident where a woman phoned in with two children and we’d exhausted every option. And back then there’s only transitional housing and crisis housing and hotels and there was nothing available. And she said, I’m out on the street. I have two children. I need somewhere to go. And I couldn’t find anywhere. And we had nothing available to her. And I was told that I’m supposed to say.

 

there’s nothing available. Now for me that was personal. It was a profoundly personal, relatable story. ⁓ And that was the defining moment for where and how the Moroccan Super was established.

 

DI (25:54)

Ah. Well, we had on the podcast a few weeks ago the CEO of the Why Do We CA Australia, Michelle Phillips. Yes. And talking specifically about homelessness for women and that the cohort now that super surpassed the over 50s is now the 25 to 38 year olds through largely domestic violence.

 

And whilst we’re yet to know if anything will come of it, ⁓ from that podcast I had somebody reach out through the website only the other day asking could we connect them with the YWCA because they want to invest in women’s housing. hopefully that becomes a call to action and something that

 

HANA (26:47)

And I mean, just some basic re-imaginings. ⁓ Because at the moment, for all the measurable indicators, the indicators is that gender-based violence is going the wrong way.

 

DI (27:05)

Yeah, well we can see it in the statistics every day in the news. It’s tragic.

 

HANA (27:10)

And a lot of people say, yeah, it’s because women report more. No, that’s not true because the measurable indicators are sadly the brutal end to domestic violence, which is murder. Those numbers are going up and they’re not a perception. So if these are the indicators, then there’s something amiss in the way we are responding to the issue.

 

DI (27:38)

and to your point, band-aiding it rather than addressing it at the root cause.

 

HANA (27:42)

And I simply say some basic things and when we talk about the Moroccan Soup Bar, for 25 years we have unwittingly and organically evolved the model that women don’t return at all. Not one woman has gone back to a violent partner in 25 years at the Moroccan Soup Bar. Not because there’s something magic about us, not because we’re amazing, but because I think our response is needs driven.

 

DI (28:12)

Yep.

 

HANA (28:12)

⁓ It organically evolved around the enduring needs of women, not just the crisis itself, but the ongoing needs like housing, upskilling women.

 

DI (28:24)

So tell us, where did the soup bar start, the Moroccan soup bar? It is your baby.

 

HANA (28:27)

So,

 

that day that I had this woman who said, you know, I need somewhere to go and there was nowhere for her to go and to me I found that extraordinarily difficult to accept. There’s always an option and there should be. If there isn’t, there should be. ⁓ I would have taken her home, you know.

 

But obviously worker safety and wellbeing and you’re not allowed to and you have boundary issues if you did and whatever. There’s always a solution. has to be a solution. Anyway, so driving home in that state, there was a sign on the side of the road saying, Felice of a shopfront on St. George’s Road. I pulled over and phoned the agent and he happened to be in the area and showed me through this

 

space. ⁓ It was carpeted. It was absolutely nothing and it was a derelict kind of strip. There was no other retail. So it was a thoroughfare St. George’s Road. And there and then I found myself haggling and brokering a lease deal, not knowing what it would be other than it would be a space that is safe, run by women for women. ⁓

 

DI (29:50)

because there had to be a solution.

 

HANA (29:52)

Absolutely. And this is, I guess, probably an important aspect of who I am and how I’ve navigated my life. I think women’s intuition is undervalued, in fact, often judged. And our intuition, ⁓

 

DI (30:09)

could not agree more.

 

HANA (30:17)

you know, is being made to, ⁓ put that aside. It is about reason, it’s about a plan, it’s about ⁓ everything with an end game. so we prioritise reason and everything that is quantifiable over intuition. And for me, what’s held my entire life in good stead and what’s never harmed me.

 

DI (30:29)

not always

 

HANA (30:43)

society harms me, and individuals and cultures, ⁓ but your own intuition, if you allow it and get in touch with it as a barometer, will never put you in harm’s way. And I think women’s intuition, reinvesting in it and re-trusting it as women is probably one of the best things we can do for ourselves. ⁓ Now, the difference is, sadly, intuition doesn’t have a plan. It just says,

 

take that step. We don’t know what will happen, but trust and take that step. And from that step, wherever you are, intuitively, you will know where the next step is. And your life will organically and authentically unfold. The issue is you can’t then take that to a bank and say, fund this intuition, because I want to open up a place and I know it’ll work. And I did, in fact, go to the bank and they went, yeah, no.

 

DI (31:44)

Talked to nearly any trailblazer or entrepreneur, intuition will have been what drove them.

 

HANA (31:51)

Yes. ⁓ And I think intuition should be part of the story. I’m not saying it’s the only story, but certainly for me, in every major life-changing and defining moment, it has been intuitive. ⁓ You know, I believe in theories, energies, vibes, ⁓ as much as everything else that is tangible. ⁓

 

DI (32:18)

But you know how to tap into it. Not everybody does.

 

HANA (32:21)

I’ve had to. It is that space that’s kept me safe. ⁓

 

DI (32:27)

It’s been your imagination that would have emotionally kept you safe years ago.

 

HANA (32:33)

And I’ve learned, and in that sense, I’ve been really, really lucky that, you know, that the circumstances didn’t define me, but that I’ve found a way to navigate through, kind of just being in yourself and looking inward.

 

DI (32:49)

So how is the Moroccan Soup Kitchen supporting women and fulfilling the dream that you identified through intuition that day?

 

HANA (32:58)

Yes, so what I thought is it would be a place for women to be safe. And then the next layer of that is society often and certainly in our cultures, women are conditioned in kitchens often. ⁓ And they are rarely rewarded, remunerated or supported or valued for that work. It’s often work that’s exploited, that’s part of the expectation of what we do. ⁓

 

And then you look for a real job. And then I thought, what if we flip that on its head a little bit and we started where women are at, what they know how to do. And they know how to be in kitchens. Bring them in. Here’s a kitchen. And we know how to do hospitality and certainly in our culture. mean, we’re… So we thought women…

 

DI (33:43)

Morning kitchens.

 

HANA (33:49)

in a kitchen and we would offer up the, and I’m vegetarian, so we would make it the best possible vegetarian food ⁓ served up to Melbourne, cooked by these women. And for me it was also really important not to make the story about women, that women’s dignity was important, that the story is about this is a food place of Moroccan vegetarian food. Back of house it had a different story.

 

DI (34:15)

Yeah.

 

HANA (34:15)

because it’s not a charity. Women don’t need pity and charity. What they need is pathways and opportunities. ⁓ so at least I knew enough to separate the two. And front of house, this was for all intents and purposes, something that was grounded in our culture, that was being offered up to Melbourne as an alternative to vegetarianism, which at the time, you know,

 

DI (34:41)

Yeah.

 

There wasn’t much there.

 

HANA (34:46)

sauce and I valued

 

the integrity of flavors and had experimented over the years because I’m vegetarian, turfing the meat and chicken and putting potato and chickpeas. So I’d experimented for myself because I was familiar with a palate that is rich in flavor. And then, you know, the women came and ⁓

 

gave him a few recipes and said, is what we’re cooking and it’s vegetarian and it’ll be like this and we opened the Moroccan soup bar genuinely in good faith. 1998, pre-internet, pre-…

 

DI (35:21)

What year? wow.

 

Pre social media. Pre any of it. Yeah, wow.

 

HANA (35:31)

In the hope that, you know, and everybody at the time, absolutely every single living human being said to me, what are you doing? This is insane. What do you know about hospitality? And you’ve got a good job. You’re a coordinator of an organization. What? And I thought, no, something in me intuitively ⁓ thought not that

 

it would be and become what it has, but that I needed to do something that was different to the system that was a revolving door bandaid. How and what that looked like I didn’t know and trusted that it would be okay. Whatever it is, it’ll be okay.

 

DI (36:16)

What’s happening back at house?

 

HANA (36:18)

So Back of House, ⁓ women and to this day, I can tell you, we’ve never advertised for staff. And Back of House, is a space for women ⁓ to disrupt the cycle of violence initially, but then to look at and walk alongside them on whatever their journey is, whether it’s from basic language to up-skilling to developing.

 

you want to be a chef, want to whatever it is, you want to be a childcare worker, to walk alongside their journey, housing, childcare, and all those tangible things along the way became evident and we organically together reimagined solutions. So housing, coming back to your housing in the YWCA, women would say, okay,

 

DI (36:54)

This is

 

HANA (37:14)

I could never ring up an estate agent. I don’t have the references, don’t have the means to live alone and compete in private rental. Public and social housing needed five years to get into. So we would come together and I would say, listen, I’ll call and over the years we’ve got to know many real estate agents. Some of them are amazing. And what I would say is, I don’t want you to give her the house, but what I want you to do is I will guarantee

 

this application at least get a look in. And in their application often women will say, how about we live together? To other women. And how about I’ll look after your kids when you’re working, you look after my kids when I’m working. And that way they deal with the prohibitive childcare costs, ⁓ housing.

 

DI (37:46)

Yeah.

 

HANA (38:09)

They share the cost of housing and on top of it, the other layers of support, they validate one another’s experience. So they don’t end up going back. And I think they’ve been part of the success story of the Moroccan Super. And then on top of it, we identified. So that was the immediate need. And then we identified, okay, so what do you want to do if you want to springboard out of here to wherever else? And some would say, I want to do childcare. I want to do, ⁓

 

DI (38:23)

tested.

 

HANA (38:39)

advocacy, whatever it is, I want to be a patisserie chef. So we then formulated arrangements with Box Hill Institute and others to upskill these women. And the biggest problem sadly again is when people are not in touch with the lived experience.

 

They’ll say, there’s an option to upskill, get them to apply, here’s a course funded by government, la, la, la. Okay, but it competes with putting food on the table. If any woman is to take up that option, she has to take six weeks out of her income earning capacity to do that course to then be upskilled. And often, it’s not that women don’t want to. So I paid for their training as part of their time at the Moroccan Soup Bar.

 

DI (39:23)

prohibitive

 

HANA (39:30)

And often we would bring the training in and the hours are paid and there’s a ⁓ synergy between, I think, women, the courses that they are learning. And then they can see a vision and an outcome, an endpoint. It’s not just, here’s your accommodation to disrupt the crisis, now go fend for yourself, which is how sadly the system is made. And I think that’s been the successful

 

⁓ part of transitioning women and challenging quietly at times and at times more overtly some of the assumptions that are the very drivers of violence and gender-based violence, assumptions around female genital mutilation, for example, or assumptions around should women endure and stay and persevere in some circumstances or ⁓

 

you will have to defy your parents because, you know, we’re supposed to afford them respect, all those kind of things. When challenged from a place of knowledge ⁓ and when we can put aside superstition and culture and tradition, but come back to the very premise of what it is to be a decent human being, even a person of faith, then I think we can rewrite.

 

some of those outcomes and the Moroccan soup bar has been there for women back of house and the other thing that at the Moroccan soup bar not one woman has walked in the door knocked on the door and said I want a job and I’ve said no to and often we don’t need staff.

 

DI (41:13)

So have you been self-sustaining? Can I ask that? have. whole time.

 

HANA (41:16)

 

whole time. And I love that because it gives you the freedom to

 

DI (41:23)

You’re not beholden to anybody else’s.

 

HANA (41:25)

Nobody’s agenda, nobody’s criteria. It is simply the criteria of making the circumstances a little better for those we stumble across. And then obviously front of house, it grew into many over 26 years, many social causes became evident ⁓ and required us to take a stand like ⁓

 

DI (41:37)

It’s even more fantastic.

 

HANA (41:53)

our relationship to First Nations communities, how we can be allies, how we can take the responsibility beyond just acknowledgments, ⁓ to being effective allies in those conversations, the climate emergency, how we can reimagine plastic, polystyrene, all that sort of stuff.

 

DI (42:14)

So cultural limitations are irrelevant in any of this? Absolutely. You’ve diversified.

 

HANA (42:19)

Well, because I go back to, for me, kindness, compassion, justice, fairness, all those things, they’re a perspective. They’re not cause specific. And they can’t be just when it’s convenient, I’m only talking about this group. No. That no matter where they are and what you come across and you’re confronted by, that perspective is my responsibility to enact. So…

 

You know, same-sex marriage, all of those issues as they ⁓ became apparent over time and became social conversations, we took a stand on and our community, ⁓ and I often say I feel like a surrogate aunt.

 

DI (43:03)

I bet you do.

 

HANA (43:05)

community. And it’s not just North Victoria, we became a destination place, everybody came, it’s so humbling. ⁓ But with it, people, and I think it reaffirmed this idea that if you build it, they will come. Quirky as it may be, unconventional as it is, that it resonated with ⁓ the betterment of who we are. And a community was not only forgiving,

 

of, you know, at times some of the girls spilt tea on people. We’re not from hospitality. The food was great, always. ⁓ We never compromised on the standard. And yet people found themselves drawn to a place that was refuge to those values, I think. And no matter who you were, the richest

 

⁓ and or the most marginalised or homeless, you were afforded the same dignity and the place was yours. and I think that affirmation back from community, that kept us buoyed and it certainly allowed us to endure through COVID and… ⁓

 

DI (44:04)

Meh.

 

You’re

 

busier today with the activities that I will call back of house than front of house by contrast.

 

HANA (44:30)

So obviously I’ve written a book, in the book it’s also a deliberate contribution, I think, to bearing witness to our times in what I find that we are hostile to and repealing some of the gains that women have made over the years. ⁓

 

DI (44:32)

Yeah.

 

HANA (44:57)

That to me feels like it’s got a lot of momentum and pushback from the highest office of the land to some social media influencers or whoever it is. that conversation around putting women back in their place ⁓ should have remained in the history books. And yet, ⁓ we’re talking about abortion rights again, we’re revisiting ⁓ attitudes that I just find extraordinary.

 

And that gave me the impetus to write about, I mean, we call it a memoir. It is called The Audacity to be Free, but to reimagine freedom. And, you know, if I had to write my life story, I think it’ll be a thousand page and that’ll only be the beginning. But I did pick snippets of my life that spoke to these issues.

 

in the hope that they can resonate with and contribute to a conversation that we are having at the moment as a country on gender-based violence and how to engage all of society. Because this to me isn’t a women’s problem, nor is it a men’s problem. It’s our problem. And sad to say we all contribute.

 

to upholding attitudes through our silence and through what we say ⁓ that form part of the drivers. And the other thing I think is also important and ⁓ doesn’t really have a lot of space is that not all men are wholesale to blame for violence against women. And we unwittingly do this because we’ve left the field, we’ve gone

 

No, violence against women is a gendered problem. Yes, it is, but not all men are perpetrators of violence. all perpetrators are perpetrators and we need to really have better systems of accountability for that, absolutely. And at times even, dare I say, remove the man. Keep an eye on him, remove him, don’t disrupt her life and children anyway. Absolutely, and simple. And the other thing,

 

DI (47:15)

Wouldn’t that be novel?

 

HANA (47:21)

The men who are not perpetrators, they are our allies. Engage them in a way. Don’t, I mean, we’ve backed, sad to say, from what I’ve seen, men into a corner of not knowing how to be and what to do. And at times, equally, not all women are wholesale victims of violence, because even unwittingly, and at times overtly, but unwittingly, ⁓

 

DI (47:24)

Absolutely.

 

Yes, I couldn’t get him on

 

HANA (47:49)

You know, men like Trump were once boys in the home. Given legitimacy, What we ask our sons and daughters are different things. What we expect and allow for sons and daughters are different things. We are complicit also in

 

…the very attitudes that enable, because when boys grow up in households, and they’re not just the domain of women, both men and women, in what they witness, ⁓ and then it’s reinforced at a social setting, in schools, our boys will be boys, they play like… …and then it’s reinforced in politics, even in our political settings, that whole adversarial have-a-go toxic culture…

 

DI (48:25)

See it on the school bus.

 

I’m

 

that at the moment and it’s a reminder that it’s been going on for a long time.

 

HANA (48:47)

So let’s invite and engage ⁓ decent men in ⁓ being part of the solution, as well as, I think, women in all our roles and responsibilities, also reimagining and questioning some of the attitudes that we uphold. ⁓ which

 

you know, I think, are contributors, our attitudes towards men and women and boys and girls and non-binary people and prejudice and all of it. ⁓ These are the drivers. Yes, governments have a role and a responsibility and must address better institutions and systems and legal responses, ⁓ but it would be remiss of us not to look at the attitudinal drivers. ⁓

 

and engage men because I think we’ve left the void and that void has been filled by the Andrew Tates and others. The solution, the one thing I would say is at the moment we’re trying to second guess ourselves a little bit and kind of go, yeah, men need to be part of the solution, let them do the men’s shed and no. The solution has to be driven by women, supported by men.

 

DI (49:49)

That’s right.

 

HANA (50:09)

That is the only way those solutions are going to be effective. They need to be defined and driven by those who endure and experience the issue as allies with taking responsibility for the privileges they hold in society as our allies. So I think the solution to me is not impossible. In fact, it’s probable if we allow and make space for

 

⁓ a reimagining and that flagpole of a vision where society is freer for everybody to live with dignity and respect.

 

DI (50:49)

Thank you, Hannah. And if I wrap that up in a bow, The most salient point out of that, I think, to share and reinforce is the solution is created by women but supported by men. Absolutely. I think that’s it in an absolute nutshell. What an absolute pleasure and a privilege to speak with you today.

 

I will ensure that we add the details to the Moroccan Soup Kitchen in the show notes and a link to your book, The Audacity, to be free. And be sure to share this episode because this is a really important episode on so many levels. It touches on so many of societal challenges today and there won’t be anybody in your orbit that this isn’t relevant for, so please be sure to share it.

 

You can catch it on all of the ⁓ audio platforms and on YouTube. Until next time.

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Midlife isn’t a crisis — it’s an invitation.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, host Di Gillett sits down with Maz O’Connor, a woman who made the bold decision to sell everything in Australia and start a new life in Bali. Her story is a reminder that reinvention isn’t about discarding who we’ve been. It’s about carrying our courage, resilience, and experience into the next chapter.

From financial independence to intentional living, Maz shares how courage often whispers before it roars, and how listening to that voice can transform everything.

If you’re a woman navigating midlife change, looking to prioritise wellness, independence and purpose, this conversation will show you how reinvention really begins.

 

In this episode, we explore:

Why midlife reinvention is about conviction, not crisis

How courage and clarity fuel personal growth after 50

Why financial independence is the foundation of women’s empowerment

 

This is what Maz said about courage & reinvention:

“Courage is that quiet voice that whispers, that whispers and that we ignore it. And when we’re choosing to find the stillness and listen to the whisper, it gets louder.”

“I took a massive step and I sold everything up… It doesn’t need to be that big and that dramatic.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the FULL TRANSCRIPT of this conversation here.

 

MAZ (00:00)

My name is Maz Maz O’Connor and I’m so excited to be on this podcast with you Di. Thank you so much for inviting me to speak. I’m in my third act and I’m absolutely loving what I’m doing. Reinvention to me is everything and how do we redefine retirement. I took an incredibly bold leap and I packed everything up in my beautiful hometown in summers just over a year ago now. It had been stewing on my mind about where I’m going and what’s happening in this third act.

 

I was a solo mum for over 20 years and I loved that part of my life. I love talking about everything to do with parenting and what I raised was really incredible independent children. So I’m 30 years in the wellness space. I’m very passionate about affiliate marketing and network marketing and particularly for women in our third act. We have so much to offer and how do we wrap that up and what do we do in our third act? So I’m excited with where we’re going, Diane.

 

DI (00:57)

Welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast and I’m Di Gillett. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And Today, as Maz has already suggested, we’re going to talk about mid-life reinvention. That feeling that it’s time to shift gears and prioritise wellness, purpose and maybe even launch something of your own.

 

And It takes bravery and it takes courage and it takes clarity on who you are and what matters most. And Maz knows that and I know that having walked away after 30 years from a lucrative career that sustained my lifestyle to launching Power Of Women 18 months ago. But what’s really the most fantastic part of that is I am doing things on my own terms.

 

So whether it’s a career pivot, a lifestyle change, or just a quiet voice saying, this just isn’t working anymore. This episode is about what it really takes to start again. And joining me from a tropical paradise in a much warmer space than the grips of winter in Melbourne is Maz O’Connor. Maz, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

MAZ (02:21)

Thank you so much, Di I’ve been looking forward to talking to you and speaking into your audience.

 

DI (02:27)

Fabulous and you and I met about I think it’s about two years ago in a little rudimentary studio when Disrupt Radio was getting off the ground and we were both there with Moe Hope and and online with Alison Shamir who I interviewed very recently and and we were talking about imposter syndrome.

 

MAZ (02:51)

Yes. And even Di being in that room with you and Alison and Mo, like I had that moment of imposter syndrome, like what am I doing here? And it was reminding to take our space, to sit in the circle. And what I love about women is that we hold each other’s hand, we lift each other up.

 

DI (03:16)

And look behind me on my pedestal is Women Holding Space, which is a beautiful book given to me by the amazing Hima Prakash after she was on the podcast only a few weeks ago.

 

MAZ (03:30)

Yes, incredible. I started to listen to Hamer’s interview yesterday. I look forward to ⁓ finishing that off today.

 

DI (03:39)

So, so much has shifted since we sat in that room. But I can remember you were a bit mesmerised by my shiny pants. So, I’ve worn shiny pants again today. They’re not quite as shiny and tactile as those ones. But I thought I should revisit that today.

 

MAZ (03:58)

I appreciate that, I can still remember seeing you getting out of your car and just going, what? This is going to be fun.

 

DI (04:09)

Yeah, Midlife reinvention. Haven’t got the message of the midlife bit in the wardrobe yet! but there we have it. So let’s talk about your midlife reinvention if we could first. I think that’s a great starting point because you’ve had a monumental shift since we sat together last.

 

MAZ (04:30)

Exactly where your introduction is, is I had a 20 year very successful career with ⁓ an Australian business. I was a solo mum during that time. I raised my children. It was very intentional the way that I raised my children. We were very fortunate. My business was successful. I helped a lot of women in during my time there. My children.

 

Now at the time were about 20, 22 independent looking after themselves and for me it became what now? What do I do now? So I left the organization that I was in and I didn’t know what I was going to do next. So I gave myself the breathing space. I was fortunate financially I could do that. I gave myself time to breathe and to fear and literally to breathe like doing breath work, doing yoga.

 

time on the beach. What does it look like? What? And I would pray and I would ask like, what’s coming in next? And things didn’t move too quickly. Very, what came through one day was around sharing my voice on radio. So similar to what you’re doing with the podcast, it was called you first and it was all about women and it was what happens when we put ourselves first. And what I found in that period of time is

 

When we put ourselves first, we are always of more service to other people. And that was magical. So the radio show became a podcast. Now, none of that was income producing. So it was like, what’s happening next? So I also knew that I loved where I lived in Australia, but I didn’t want to stay there for the next 30 years. I live in a beautiful suburb and some of your audience may know of Summers. It’s down by the water.

 

There is dolphins, there is koalas, there is this beautiful supportive network and I loved being there but I also knew that that wasn’t going to be for me for the next 30 years. So sitting around the pool with the group of women in Bali last May, so we’re now 18 months ago, sitting around and they’re all saying what would it be like to live and again that moment of oh this is where I’m coming next.

 

So then I rang my partner, I rang my children and I said this is what’s happening, this is what I’m doing, I’m going to wrap everything up and I’m coming to Bali to live. And what I chose not to listen to with a naysayer is how could you leave, you live in a beautiful place, you’ve got a great business.

 

DI (07:11)

What were the people around you saying? What was the reaction?

 

MAZ (07:16)

What it was is we all see through our own lens. So for those people, was, we will miss you. And my home was an Airbnb, it was an event space, it was a yoga studio, I read yoga classes, we did a lot of weekend workshops. So it was closing those things down. And what people do is they see it through their own eyes, what they will miss. And for me, was, and you know, what you’re doing, Di, is like, how can we be a vision for other people? How can they see?

 

DI (07:36)

What I’ll miss.

 

MAZ (07:45)

what we’re doing and even if it’s that little bit of courage where she chooses to get up at 6 instead of 6.30 and take half an hour to walk or half an hour to read something that’s going to shift her mindset or that she moves in the morning to make her body feel better. That’s what I want to be. So if someone’s looking at me and I know it’s happening and thinking, well, if Maz can do that, maybe I can too.

 

do this little thing too.

 

DI (08:16)

Yeah and I think that’s right, it’s and that word and I know it’s played around but it’s so valid of giving yourself permission to do that but it doesn’t, it’s not a snap decision and it does take courage and it absolutely takes a sense of self that we probably didn’t have 20 years ago.

 

to do that and I appreciate there’s a generation coming through now who might be starting this journey earlier than us. However, know, different time, different landscape than perhaps what we were facing into at that stage.

 

MAZ (09:01)

One of the things in I’ve been writing a lot since I’ve been in Bali and I do spend a lot of time on my own here as I’m building this new brand globally is when I was 14 I met some girls that went to boarding school and I lived in a beautiful family regional area as well and I went boarding school that’s a great idea.

 

So at 14 I went to my went back to my parents and said I want to go to boarding school for a year 11 and 12 and the same thing my family were like I think probably my family were like see you later

 

DI (09:37)

People

 

say I want to leave boarding school.

 

MAZ (09:39)

Yeah,

 

so I went to boarding school and I went away to do what I needed to do and then I did it again. I moved from Melbourne to Queensland and that’s when I started to work in the health retreats in Queensland and then I did it again when I moved to Sydney. So the big thing just looking at what was happening in my life is that I backed myself. So when I left my husband,

 

Sydney and I moved back to Melbourne, I was in fully commission based business and I backed myself entirely and then I supported other women and it was a direct to market business and I supported other women to do the same and I would believe in them until they believed in themselves and then that’s how they supported their families. So where we are, where you and I are now is

 

The reinvention of this third act, like what does this look like? And redefining retirement. And you and I know that The highest level of homeless people now are women post 50 that are not prepared for what’s coming. So this is who I’m speaking into daily and globally is let’s do exactly what you’re talking about. Let’s hold hands. Let’s raise each other.

 

DI (11:07)

Yeah, and in actual fact, I’m going to challenge that statistic. and we’ve been talking about the, and not to lessen the impact of the over 50 homeless, but I have recently had on the podcast, Michelle Phillips, who is the CEO of YWCA Australia. And that’s actually shifted to the 25 to 34 year olds because of domestic violence, because of the housing crisis.

 

and that has actually, that has usurped the 50 plus cohort. So, ⁓ however, I look around me, I can see in the streets and I walk around my local area, there are clearly women, mature age women living in cars. So it’s just, it’s incredible. But you raised a really interesting point if I… ⁓

 

start to join the dots. So you said you worked in a commission-based industry and I come from the world of recruitment and executive search where over the years you would have a retainer but your real income was generated by what what revenue you brought in for for the business and and you shared in a percentage of that revenue. Now there’s a mindset that goes with that.

 

because there are a lot of people who could not live on an income stream like that because they needed the job security and the income security of a set salary. Where you and I from a career perspective had to back ourselves from day dot to do what we did and I know I worked for

 

you know, industry doy in the recruitment space and reported to Andrew Banks for many years. And probably more entrepreneurs were born out of the stable of the Morgan & Banks stable than probably any other business stable I can think of in this country. And there is a mindset and a character trait that plays out in what you and I are doing now.

 

So I think that’s it. It’s an interesting profile.

 

MAZ (13:31)

Thank you, Di. It was something, and it was seeing my, you know, someone reflected me back to me saying like as a solo mum, the 100 % commission based business, what I loved was it’s the paying it forward. So I helped other women find, like, and as I said before, like to believe in them, I would believe in them until they’d believe in themselves. And then they’d be up and running and I provided them a framework to be able to create an income.

 

And the vehicle at the time that I was using was an Australian based business ⁓ in women’s fashion. And it was incredible. my boys and I, we went overseas every year. We chose where we lived. We lived by the beach. We chose the car. And education was really important to me. The schools I put my children through. So we were able to create a lifestyle, not based on what our bank balance is, but what our dreams are.

 

And then I met that with how clever we worked. And it’s the same thing now with Women, 50 plus going into, you know, we sort of talk about retirement. I want to redefine that. We have so much that we can bring, but often we’re not considered for those traditional jobs anymore as the youth are coming through. So that’s what I love about affiliate marketing and network marketing and commission-based businesses is that

 

You Use all of the network, you use all of your skills and you bring that to market. Pairing with AI, pairing with digital marketing, social media, there’s so much that’s there.

 

DI (15:13)

It was interesting. I recorded a show with Wade Kingsley, radio guy the other day who lives down in your old neck of the woods. and he made an interesting point because ageism is something that, you know, we’re right in the heart of. And I don’t, I have to put my hand up and say I personally haven’t experienced it. but it’s all

 

but it is absolutely all around us. And I probably had more approaches for employment in my post 50 years and I’m now post 60 ⁓ than I had in my earlier career. I’d note that that is the exception, not the norm. But Wade made a really interesting point in the world coming through of ageism and AI,

 

that maybe our cohort are going to be really valuable because we’re the guys who knew the world before AI. We knew how to get on the tools and do all the manual labor. And maybe that is going to keep us longer because people are going to come looking for our skills because we know how to do things when the wheels fall off.

 

MAZ (16:31)

Yes and those of us that are willing to embrace AI. So I think yes and. So AI fascinates me. It fascinates me particularly in the wellbeing space. What’s happening in the wellbeing space, how we’re using the data to improve our own wellness and how

 

DI (16:53)

Everybody’s got a device on. Yeah, yeah.

 

MAZ (16:56)

the

 

wearing device which is one thing but then also how does that device, how does that information then get interpreted? You know what apps are coming out and even the interpretation like then how do we improve our wellness based on that? That’s the space that I’m in that’s super exciting me. So I think yes, Di, us that have been the manual learners and the unique thing about you, Di, is that you are so willing to embrace technology.

 

You are so willing, you have a learner’s mindset, so you are willing.

 

DI (17:29)

I’ve done two YouTube videos this morning to help me maximise my YouTube channel and learn how to work with the algorithm. I love it.

 

MAZ (17:38)

Yes,

 

so for those that are willing to embrace AI, to have the beginner’s or the learner’s mindset and to bring that and also to make a difference, how do we amplify others? In me, that’s the formula for success and that’s what you’re doing, that’s what you’re bringing.

 

DI (17:57)

Yeah and that’s what you’ve been doing for so long. So tell us a little bit before we move on, tell us a little bit about the business you’re building now.

 

MAZ (18:06)

Thank you, Di. So for me, moving to Bali was again like when I left home and I went to boarding school. It was I to remove myself from everything that I knew. And if I’m talking about a global business, I’m going to do it from a space and not use the networks, the face-to-face, the one-to-one networks that I know. So the organization that I’m working with, it’s a 40-year-old well-being organization.

 

they have embraced AI in such a way because they’ve been gathering data for over 20 years. So what’s coming is AI combining it with DNA testing, microbiome testing and antioxidant scanning, so a bio-photonic scanner. You’re smiling, Diet. I feel

 

DI (18:55)

I am because this is my world. If I watch any podcast it’s about, I mean I didn’t know what microbiome was two years ago and now it’s every second day it’s in my world.

 

MAZ (19:07)

So this organisation that I’m with ⁓ is leading in this. They are spending almost 2 billion Australian dollars in the development. ⁓ It is coming out over stages. Stage one has just been released, which is a biophotonic scanner ⁓ that will be available for anybody in the wellness space, for consumers to use as well. ⁓ It will give you an antioxidant reading. We know when our antioxidant levels are high,

 

free radicals that are doing the damage in our

 

DI (19:40)

These are personal tracking devices,

 

MAZ (19:43)

It is a personal tracking device at the moment. It’ll be limited to what’s available in the marketplace. It’ll use, ⁓ where it’s going to, it’ll use the wearables that a lot of us have, the Aura rings and the wearables. But the first stage is this biophotonic scanner. And that just excites me no end I is that you can be at home, you can scan, or you could go to your gym where they have a scanner or your.

 

allied health professional where they’ve got a scanner, you scan and it’ll go die, your health rating is at 420, which is around halfway. 850 is maximum. Would you like to improve your wellbeing? Of course, die 60, wanting to live younger, longer. And we all know that we are living longer anyway. Let’s live longer, better.

 

DI (20:36)

Let’s

 

live longer and better. Yes.

 

MAZ (20:39)

So then you then like these are the protocols so there’ll be personalized protocols that’ll be just for you there will be recommendations of nootropics and nutraceuticals as well for you and then they’ll be attached to apps which might be like Mindvalley or DMRT or where you know other apps will be associated with so it’s exciting.

 

DI (21:04)

And I can see you’re excited about that. How fantastic to get your head around and be involved in something at this point in your career that is so motivating. Well done you.

 

MAZ (21:18)

The reason I’m doing it as well is that the platform enables me to invite other people to be part of this too and globally. So there is another wave where this particular organisation is opening up in India. So come later this year I’m moving to India for a period of time as well. So again 100 % backing and a brand new market.

 

DI (21:42)

wow. So you are way not done yet. You’ve got loads, loads more to do, Matt. That’s very exciting. Yeah. That’s absolutely brilliant. What a third act. It’s going to be your best. Yes.

 

MAZ (21:56)

that’s what we’re planning and also how can I bring other people along with me? What does that look like? What does that feel like? And being global as well die. Living in this beautiful place in Bali has has taught me a lot. It has simplified my life incredibly and allowed me to focus on what’s important and what’s important is yes my own health, yes the well-being of my family, yes leaving a legacy.

 

but also how can I help others to be well, to live longer, better, to leave a legacy for their families too? And how much are we willing to let go of? So when I left Australia, I sold pretty much everything. I’ve got a real passion for chairs, so I didn’t sell all of my chairs, but I sold my car, the rest of my furniture. I have no kitchenware left at all.

 

all my linen, I love linen, all my linen went and I was so incredible. I tell you the challenge, the most challenged person, so I told my partner, he was on board, I told my children, my beautiful community and you may have heard of my best friend is Jane McCann who’s on Instagram as the middle-aged goddess and I was so nervous about telling Jane so I didn’t ring her and tell her I went home and I said

 

Jane, I’ve got something to tell you. I think I’m going to wrap up and I’m going to leave.” And she said, ⁓ I was so nervous to tell you. She said, because I’m going to leave the peninsula and move somewhere else as well, but I didn’t know how to tell you.

 

DI (23:35)

Have you ended up in the same place?

 

MAZ (23:37)

No, we haven’t. So I’ve ended up in Bali. She’s ended up down the alt ways. But what’s happened in there, and it’s been really interesting that I’m spending more quality time with those people that I love than I would have if we lived together and we lived in the same town. the quality time with my loved ones, so my son, like my younger son, I spent three weeks with him. Now that would just never happen in Australia.

 

So three weeks with him, my youngest brother, who is a father and a husband now, I spent 10 days with him. Now that just would never happen. 10 days.

 

DI (24:16)

Because

 

it’s with intention.

 

MAZ (24:18)

Yeah, and my beautiful partner, he does fly-in, fly-out work, but my love language is quality time. So his love language is acts of service. So him going back out to work, that’s his love language. And then he comes back with me and we have quality time. And then the same with Jane. So Jane, again, they came for Christmas. Now that would never happen that we would have two weeks together.

 

Then we just did a retreat in Bali with her crew and we’re about to go to Morocco together as well and she’s about to announce another trip to a destination that I can’t speak about that is covered by many people and we often don’t get to go. yeah, that’s been really interesting, the quality time.

 

DI (25:08)

Fantastic. And I always think it takes a village to keep us going and as we get older that village gets a little bit more extensive. For somebody listening to this podcast and saying, okay, I’m going to pack up and move, what do you do in terms of doctors and all your support networks and for me a hairdresser and a colorist and you know, how does one do all of that?

 

MAZ (25:37)

That’s such a great question. I will say that I found myself in Australia for a couple of, in Melbourne actually, for a couple of nights and I found a dermal therapist in Albert Park of all places, gorgeous woman, Cammie. So was interesting. So I went home and I got a lot of the things done at home.

 

DI (25:39)

Ought to

 

MAZ (26:03)

I use an incredible skincare but those facials are really important. So yes I have a natural colour in my hair and I went for a walk this morning before we met and so it was pouring with rain so then my hair got pulled back. Getting my nails done I did that when I was in Melbourne but it’s yeah they’re like

 

DI (26:27)

It’s a little bit flying by.

 

MAZ (26:29)

but

 

also in Bali, like there is some phenomenal expats and also locals that run great businesses here. I live on the other side of Bali, so it’s the east side, which is not busy. It’s not highly populated by expats. And again, I chose this because I wanted to focus on there. How do we make the decision to go?

 

So it was the quiet time, it was the journaling. Some people might use prayer or intention. The stillness is uber important to have the quiet, to let the information come in for me. And I know I distract myself still. What does it look like? What does it feel like? To our listener, take the breath, do the exhale, feel the feels, back yourself.

 

If you don’t have the capabilities of backing yourself, listen to podcasts that Di, these incredible women, the Power Of Women. Listen to these women that have backed themselves. Surround yourself with people. Reading the book, you’ve got Hema’s book behind you. Read about incredible women that have backed themselves. And even if you just take that moment and use that little bit

 

of courage that someone else has used Follow those inspirational women on social media. Follow Dai, follow me, follow Dai’s previous interviews as well. Yeah, and back yourself, listen to that little voice and know that we’re never too, you’re never too old. You are enough just as you are.

 

You’ve got this, and for those of us that are 50 plus, you’ve got this vast amount of experience. Like, use that. Trust yourself.

 

DI (28:32)

Beautiful. So coming up, we’re going to dive into more stories about courage and reinvention. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So Maz, we said we’re going to talk about courage and reinvention and I know that you have spoken to many midlife women in our time of life. What are they telling you?

 

MAZ (29:05)

Courage is that quiet voice that whispers, that whispers and that we ignore it. And when we’re choosing to find the stillness and listen to the whisper it gets louder. The other thing that I know is that there will be the pothole that trips you up. There will be, in Hindu philosophy we talk about Ganesha.

 

And Ganesha is the remover of obstacles and he’s also the placer of obstacles. So we can see obstacles as I got retrenched, ⁓ my car broke down, ⁓ my husband and I aren’t getting on well. Courage is that little voice that’s in the background that’s believing that you’ve got what you need and taking that small step.

 

Shanna Kennedy was an incredible woman that I interviewed and she has a roadmap for people and I loved her roadmap. One of the big things that I’ve used is vision boards. Shanna speaks about that a lot. You interviewed Colin Callender, who’s co-written a book with her. The vision boards have been so important for me and now on a digital platform, I use it on my phone. So courage is taking that step, listening to that voice.

 

having a vision of where we’re going and just taking it step by step. I took a massive step and I sold everything up. It doesn’t need to be that big and that dramatic.

 

DI (30:36)

That’s a big step.

 

MAZ (30:40)

I just want to share this one thing with you as well, Di. To those listeners that are younger, when I had a three-year-old and a one-year-old, I opened up my own bank account. I was married to a guy at the time. I opened up my own bank account and I just started to put a little bit of money in the bank account.

 

DI (31:00)

This is a powerful message.

 

MAZ (31:03)

And it was not attached. I got the statement sent. In those days it wasn’t digital. It was sent to a different address. And I just started to put money away. It was my just-in-case money. And then I started to build my business. I had a small business at the time. And I started to earn. It was $5,000 a month. And I remember thinking, at $5,000 a month, now I can support my family and myself with this money.

 

And I took a moment and was like, do I want to stay in this marriage? He was well known in media at the time in Sydney. And he was well known and it was, if I leave, I’m going to leave this entire lifestyle. I’ve got the money. And so I sat there quietly and it was, do I stay because I’m safe or do I trust that I can do this? So.

 

And that was a moment where I then created a strategy for me to go forward and to leave. So that one, it took courage to do that little thing, set up that bank account. I was putting little bits of money in. When I got to a point of earning $5,000 a month, I was like, I can look after my boys and I on that. And then I didn’t leave then, I created a strategy so that I could leave. And the other thing I did die and for the listeners, I bought land.

 

I bought land, I needed to borrow, but I bought land in regional Victoria. And I went back home to my husband at the time and I told him what I did and he goes, where are you going to get the money from? Yeah. And why? And I said, well, I’m just going to get the money from the bank account because it was a pretty fat bank account. He goes, no, you’re not. And at that point he goes, you need to get a job. And at that point there was another point where I went, I’m not going to get a job. I’m going to be a full-time mom, but I’m going to create an income. And that’s when I went into network marketing.

 

because I knew that I could be a full-time mum and I could earn what I needed to earn and I could, I’ve got the, I’m excited, I’ve got the shakes talking about this and I could help other women in my position to do the same and that’s what I did die.

 

DI (33:12)

You created financial independence and set up your security strategy looking forward. And that’s a fantastic message for anybody listening. I’ve said, I’ve harked on about it so many times on this podcast and over the years in talking with friends. My relationship with money was

 

developed from observing my mother and my father, which would, and this story is generational, so it’s nothing unusual about it, but my relationship with money was informed by my mother asking my father for the weekly check for her cash flow. Now, it’s not that she didn’t have her own money, she’d given it over at the time, and she was the daughter of a bank manager, you’d think she would have known better. However,

 

I listened to that from as I can remember hearing it as young as eight and deciding at that young age that I was not going to be in that position and I was never going to ask anybody for money ever and I never have.

 

MAZ (34:25)

eight. I have a similar story when I was younger and I wanted to, when people would say what do want to be when you grow up and I would say I want to be my own boss.

 

DI (34:40)

Yeah, we set our intentions earlier than perhaps we perhaps we realize. Yeah

 

MAZ (34:46)

Yes. Yeah. want to be my own boss and I didn’t know what that meant but be my own boss. Yeah.

 

DI (34:54)

So by contrast to the women that you’ve been talking to and over the years that I’ve interviewed, not so much for power of women because these are women like us who are moving forward and doing some great work. ⁓ But What is it that you are hearing that is holding so many women back from stepping up and moving forward with their own journeys?

 

MAZ (35:22)

It’s fear. It is fear. It is fear of financial. If ⁓ I’m not in this marriage, how do I manage financially? And I haven’t been working for X amount of time. Here’s another big one, Di I’m sure you’ve spoken about this superannuation. I don’t have any superannuation. I don’t own property on my own. Or the other thing more recently is

 

people being property owners and having debt on their property in excess of 600, 800,000.

 

DI (35:58)

Frightening. Frightening.

 

MAZ (36:00)

Not being able to service the mortgage, going backwards, the husband either ill health is happening or the bonuses are not happening or the work’s not there. So fear would be the big one. So that’s why I always talk about strategy, have a strategy, start your strategy now. What does it look like? Is there a side hustle that you can do? Is there someone already doing what you want? Watch what they’re doing, like the steps are there.

 

Watch what they’re doing. Reach out to someone that’s already doing what you want to do. Clean up your social media. it’s not making you feel great of things that you’re looking at, clear it up. Don’t follow those people that are there as well. Believe in yourself. Even if it is that you keep a contract with yourself, even if it is that, as I said earlier in in our chat, even if it’s your promise to yourself that you wake at 6.30 in the morning and you spend some time journaling.

 

You spend some time writing, what does my dream life look like? You spend some time vision boarding what your world is going to be. You what we speak it like you die. I’m never going to be asking for money. You know, you can create your life. Let’s start to speak intention into that. Let’s let go of the fear. Yeah.

 

DI (37:21)

Yeah, thanks, Maz. On reflection now, as you look back, what do you actually wish you’d learnt sooner?

 

MAZ (37:31)

I can feel this in my body. To trust myself earlier, there was times and then it was gone. There was times and then was gone. To align with people that had a big vision, to align with people with a global vision, to follow the breadcrumbs. So success leaves clues. Who’s doing?

 

and living the life that I want to live and align myself with those people.

 

DI (38:00)

But you jumped on board pretty early in hindsight. So I might ask that of somebody else and they’re still getting there. I think you found yourself and set yourself up much earlier than many of us might do.

 

MAZ (38:22)

What I’ll also say is success doesn’t look like this. it’s not linear. And also success is different. One of the things that I’m so proud of is choosing to sole parent my boys. Because the guy that I was married to, he was a lovely fella. There was stuff that was going on there that he couldn’t control and we couldn’t be part of. So…

 

Choosing to sole parent was bit of a this sort of a as well but that was an intentional parenting. I was really conscious of what we did. Now did I always get it right? Probably not. Did I do my best? Absolutely. Are we great friends now and do we like just adore each other and they’re incredible human beings.

 

So knowing that success is not linear, knowing that success for one person is different to success for you. So success may be having cohesive family, what’s our part in this? Success may be supporting yourself and your family. What’s your part in this? And knowing that success is not this, it goes like this. And that’s okay as long as the trajectory is going up.

 

DI (39:43)

That’s brilliant. So if I was to ask you, what would you say to the woman who feels she is looking for change but doesn’t know where to begin? What would be that one salient point of advice you’d have to offer to the listeners today?

 

MAZ (40:02)

Success leaves clues. Look at those women that are doing what you want to do. Follow them. I read Michelle Obama’s book Becoming and what she did is that she had interactions with people and she asked them, what’s my next step? Who’s the next person you can introduce me to? Have conversations with those people. Reach out to those people.

 

Social media is incredible for that. Success leaves clues. Follow those that have the success that you want.

 

DI (40:40)

Thank you so much, Maz. What an absolute joy to reconnect, even though we’re worlds apart on this occasion. And thank you so much for joining the Dots. And I know you have also suggested a raft of fabulous women that I still need to have conversations with.

 

I love hearing what you’re doing and looking forward to being the beneficiary of some of this fabulous tech and some of this great innovative work that you’re part of and part of taking to market. good luck with that. Moes, where can somebody find you if they’re looking to follow specifically what you’re doing? Where do we catch you?

 

MAZ (41:28)

Instagram’s still my best place so at Mas O’Connor, still my best, that’s where I show up most most often. I’m also on Facebook, Mas O’Connor on Facebook.

 

DI (41:39)

And I ⁓ play with Facebook and Instagram, but most of my conversations because of my corporate background are still held on LinkedIn. So please follow me there if you’re interested in what I’m doing. And look, as Maz has already touched on, we have spoken to so many inspiring women over the last 18 months on the power of women. Some of the stories and their experiences have been born out of adversity.

 

Some of them have been born out of entrepreneurialism and some of them have been born out of social justice. So there’s a raft of individuals that are worth listening to and you can find all of the episodes on my website under the podcast tab on powerofwomen.com.au. Again, Maz, lovely to see you. Best luck with what you’re doing. It’s brilliant. Until next time.

 

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Born in Exile, Singing for Freedom: The Voice of Lele

Born in Exile, Singing for Freedom: The Voice of Lele

This week’s podcast is a conversation about legacy, resilience, exile, embracing a sense of belonging … & the power of music …the Voice of Lele.

Lele is a proud West Papuan singer-songwriter, refugee, mother of four, and decolonisation activist.

Born in exile, Lele’s journey has taken her from the Netherlands to Australia, where she became the nation’s first prominent West Papuan artist to perform on major stages — including the Australian Open. She shares the realities of being separated from one’s homeland, the deep cultural connection passed down by her late father — legendary musician Agustinus Rumwaropen.

We explore how music has become her weapon of resistance, a vessel for preserving her culture, and a bridge between her Melanesian roots and the world stage. This conversation is a testament to resilience, motherhood and determination.

 

In this episode, we explore:

– Growing up in exile and the meaning of “home”

– Music as cultural preservation and political protest

– The legacy of her late father, Agustinus Rumwaropen

– Balancing motherhood, activism, and performance

– Lessons in resilience and identity

 

This is what Lele said about resilience and identity:

“Music is a form of protest.”

“Living in exile means always longing to be home, even if you’ve never truly lived there.”

“You’re stronger than you think you are. Even when you think you’re strong, you’re even stronger.”

“If you get caught raising the West Papuan flag back home, it’s 15–20 years in jail — but I fly it proudly on stage.”

 

New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

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Find Lele at:

Website: https://www.voiceoflele.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/voiceoflele

 

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