FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT – Host (00:00)

At the same time, As much as I love my husband, my marriage in no way, shape or form defines who I am and I can exist as an independent.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (00:13)

I mean, and that’s the goal for the modern woman. It’s

 

just that many of us don’t know how to do it. And it’s a bit of a

 

DI GILLETT – Host (00:19)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (00:20)

journey. It’s a bit of a journey to explore how can I exist as an independent woman and be interdependent with a man.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (00:33)

Ready to talk about relationships and love?

 

Let’s look at the stats because in 2025 the highest divorce rate in this country was women and men aged 45 to 49. Nearly a third of all divorces now happen after 50. And if we hone in on that midlife cohort, in 1990, only 13% of divorces involved someone aged 50 or older. But today, roughly 32% of all divorces in Australia.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (00:54)

Okay. Okay.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (01:05)

now occur among people over 50 and that number continues to climb. No wonder the dating seems

 

so frenetic because it is crowded out there. So to help me navigate the complex world of love and relationships is author Natalia Rachel. Aside from her work as a writer, Natalia is a therapist and facilitator who has worked globally and today she’s joining me from Sydney

 

Natalia Rachel, welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (01:39)

Thank you, Di I’m so excited for our conversation.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (01:43)

Now, just to clear the deck and and put my own scenario out there, I have been happily married for twenty-one years, but I have kissed a hell of a lot of frogs before I got there. And I didn’t get married until I was forty-one. But can I ask, married

 

Divorced, all of the above.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (02:04)

I am divorced, I’ve been divorced nearly a decade. So I got married young and I got divorced relatively young, kind of a bit before the curve. So it’s been really

 

DI GILLETT – Host (02:14)

Yeah, right.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (02:15)

interesting, my love life, my dating experiences and all those fucking frogs, they’ve happened for me later in life, which is I think what’s happening with a lot of women right now in their midlife dating era.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (02:29)

Yeah. And and it’s interesting you say you’ve been single for ten years. So many of my girlfriends who divorced in their forties and fifties have never recoupled.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (02:41)

I had two relationships after divorce, but

 

the last five years after that last one, I was like, I’m done for now. I can’t be letting my love life lead my life. And I think as many women have gotten married young and maybe deferred career, deferred financial stability, deferred self-actualization in favor of marriage and children.

 

I think we become

 

very attached to finding our stability, finding our independence later in life and far less willing to allow anything to even potentially upset the apple cart. So we’re in this really interesting time where anybody that’s been through a marriage and gotten divorced, you know, we’re in this funny place where we might not be putting love first anymore.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (03:36)

So with that with that in mind, do you do you think because as females we are coming more into our own that that is driving the divorce rate? We’re just coming into our own later in life, perhaps?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (03:53)

think that might be one of the things that’s happening. I think we’re in a very complex romance recession. But one of the things that’s happening, I really believe that. Yeah, that’s, I’ve coined that. We’re really in it.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (04:02)

I love that terminology, romance recession.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (04:07)

Like love is very elusive for many of us. One of the

 

things that’s contributing to it from the female side is that women as a gender, we are becoming more empowered than ever before.

 

Later in life, particularly if we’re not looking for financial stability from a man or not looking for someone to give us their sperm or be the father of our children, we need them less. And so that

 

is absolutely contributing to the shift in our collective romance world right now. But there are a few

 

other things that I think are happening. One is that it’s become more acceptable to leave. One generation ago,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (04:49)

Yeah,

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (04:50)

divorce wasn’t acceptable

 

DI GILLETT – Host (04:50)

that’s so true.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (04:51)

and now it’s like we’ve been given permission and we’ve been

 

given permission legally, we’ve been given permission socially through Hollywood, like it’s just become really normal and so people

 

are less afraid to leave. and I think another big piece that’s in there is we’re living in the age of self-actualization and again one generation ago

 

We weren’t so attached to finding ourselves and living our purpose and being well. You know, we accepted what we were given. And because we’re in this age of self-actualization, we’re sort of saying no to any relationships that do not champion us to be our best selves, which is a lot of them.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (05:35)

Yeah. And you know, I think on a on a personal level, that is what was the sort of the backstory to me getting I was I was forty one when or forty when I got when I got married, which is, you know, mature age and as I’ve shared plenty of frogs before that. But had I got married earlier, I probably would have been divorced three times in the lead up to now.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (05:59)

Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (06:00)

And At the same time, As much as I love my husband, my marriage in no way, shape or form defines who I am and I can exist as an independent.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (06:13)

I mean, and that’s the goal for the modern woman. It’s

 

just that many of us don’t know how to do it. And it’s a bit of a

 

journey. It’s a bit of a journey to explore how can I exist as an independent woman and be interdependent with a man.

 

And that’s not just about women, know, men are going through their intergenerational healing as well. And so a lot of men that have been divorced, they face similar, like they don’t want to feel the burden or the duty of care.

 

They don’t want to have to give up their independence or their personal pursuits or their money either. So I think both men and women are going through a little bit of a wobble at the moment, which

 

is making it very hard to partner. And you mentioned you got married 21 years ago. The dating landscape is very, different now. I think it’s even different in the last seven years. Since COVID, things have really, really changed. So

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:06)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (07:10)

we’re less open.

 

merging with each other. We’re less open to giving and sharing and collaborating which is actually really sad.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:19)

Yeah. Well it’s interesting. I mean by and to your to your point. So just before I met my husband, who I met at a girlfriend’s wedding, it was her second or third time round. And my husband was the person I sat next to at the wedding. But only the week before a couple of girlfriends had convinced me to sign up to what was probably one of the very first

 

online dating platforms at the time. And I’d signed up the week before, but never ventured down that path because I had this fortuitous meeting at this wedding. But you’re absolutely right. I mean the landscape from then until now

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (08:03)

Okay.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

is so incredibly different. And we’ve got this generation of women coming through who

 

are empowered and professionals in business and and very possibly the

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (08:14)

Okay.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:16)

financial lead in a household or a higher income earner. So all of those dynamics are are changing. But from all of the work that you’ve done with your research for your books, Natalia, do we know who’s instigating divorce more regularly now, male or female?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (08:35)

If we look at later in life or what’s termed as a grade of auth, which I don’t really like that term, it’s a shit term.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:40)

Yep, which is a shit term. It is a shit

 

term. I think I might have written it once upon a time and I apologise to everybody for doing that.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (08:52)

But for like 45 plus, it tends to be more women that are actioning

 

the shift. And I think, you know, there’s this midlife reckoning that happens for both women and men. But women have been really focused on the healing for a couple of generations now, like the feminism movement. And we’re at a time where

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:12)

Yeah, where the guys

 

go and buy a sports car, so there’s a slight difference.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (09:16)

Yeah, but I think that, you know,

 

there’s also research that shows that men are more likely to repartner, like men benefit more from being in a relationship. So they’re therefore less likely to leave because

 

they know that they’re receiving something. But I don’t want to come across as someone that’s, you know, all about women and not all about men. think, you know, we’re all in this together, but we have different pieces. Yeah, we have different pieces that we’re navigating right now. And I

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:36)

Same, same. But we’re different creatures.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (09:44)

You know, in terms of speaking from a more compassionate place for men, think women have had this space to kind of unearth ourselves and step into our power. For a couple of generations, we’ve been on this healing journey. I feel like men are at the beginning and men are just

 

trying to figure out how do I show up now as a version of me that is softer, more emotionally connected, yet still in touch with my inner wolf.

 

and you know

 

my animalistic energy and I don’t feel like that’s fully come online yet and it might not for some time. So it’s really

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:18)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (10:18)

hard to step into a healthy relationship if we don’t know how to operate.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:23)

And I think to your point about looking at the differences between men and women and it and again, I mean, I’m all about everybody. So I’m even though my platform is called Power of Women, I’m I’m not not a stark raving feminist by any stretch.

 

So

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (10:38)

Thanks.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:39)

l putting that out there. But I do think by pure life experience and observational skill.

 

I do think women survive better solo than men and men for for decades and generations have historically recoupled more quickly.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (11:03)

Yes, well that’s certainly true in the case of me and my my prior husband. I’m not exactly sure.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:10)

And sometimes they recouple

 

before they should.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (11:14)

I mean, I think that happens all the time in my dating journey, you over many years, I’ve learned if someone is separated, that’s a no. If someone is six weeks out of relationship, that’s a no because then I

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:25)

No.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (11:26)

know that I’m being used as a soother. I’m being used because that person can’t tolerate their own loneliness, their own aloneness.

 

And I think, but for both men and women, there’s a really important piece around learning to sit with oneself.

 

and to not go into relationship as a way to avoid our own pain or our own unprocessed wounds. And I think a lot of us do that.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:52)

So how do we know, we being female, how do we know when we’re ready to jump back in and get back onto the dating pool? Or into the dating pool?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (12:00)

I

 

don’t think there’s a ready. I think that’s a bit of an illusion and a myth. There is no

 

fully healed state. I think it’s more about being able to watch ourselves, to have a compassionate conscious gaze over our experience and the way we might be avoiding ourselves or projecting onto men and both can happen. But I kind of feel like the dating journey itself can provide a lot of healing.

 

if we shift the focus

 

from trying to get the guy or the girl to how am I showing up? What are my shadows? What do need to heal? And how can I show up as the best version of me? And I think we learn a lot through that process. We also learn what do I actually want and what do I not want? Many of us haven’t thought about that earlier in life.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (12:50)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (12:50)

So don’t think there’s this point where you’re ready. It’s just about being committed.

 

to being on the journey and being curious about your experience rather than making it a game. And I think a lot of us make it a game. And when we enter a game, love dies.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (13:06)

And I wholehearted agree that I don’t think there is a line in the sand when you’re ready. But I do know from personal experience I at the end of a de facto relationship I had a two year gap before I met my husband and I really took that time to go, There’s a cycle here, what am I doing

 

wrong?

 

And My realisation was this, Natalia. I had spent my entire life letting men choose me, which became the step into a relationship,

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (13:41)

and through.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (13:42)

rather than me being ever the instigator and doing the choosing.

 

And that was that was a game changer.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (13:51)

That’s huge. I think There are many women who are waiting to be chosen. And this is usually

 

a very young part of us. It usually goes back to the trauma of neglect, like we haven’t been emotionally attuned to in our younger years. And so we end up projecting

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:05)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (14:06)

that into our romantic world, just waiting to be chosen. And whenever we’re projecting a childhood wound, what happens is we keep recreating it. because no one can ever choose the little child whose parents didn’t choose them. So it’s almost like we’re looking unconsciously to

 

that that narrative is true. And so the moment we wake up, we reclaim our power and we stop dating as a little girl and we start dating as a grown woman and everything changes.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:30)

God, that’s scary for men to think about.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (14:33)

haha

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:35)

Are they ready? Yeah. Well let’s

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (14:38)

No one’s ready.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:40)

Well let’s go back to that forty five plus cohort. But before we do, please allow me to read just a snippet from ‘Other lovers that is your first debut novel. Well, you’ve been a prolific writer, but this is your first novel.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (14:56)

Mm-hmm.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:58)

with another one absolutely in the wings as a companion one to to other lovers. But I think this sets the scene. So let me just read this to our listeners because I think it’s rather fitting. “The unavailable man is a common species swimming in the fucked up dating pool. Another common species is the anxious, disempowered woman who continues to lap.

 

Up less love than she deserves. Together they tend to do the most embarrassing unconscious dating dance. He reels her in and throws her back again and again and again, and she swims around in an emotional turmoil, shaking her seductive ass until she is next hooked and can start the ridiculous dance all over again.” So descriptive, been there, seen that bloke.

 

Been the victim, being the I don’t know whether I’ve shaken the seductive ass, but I’ve given it a good a good go. How much of that was personal experience versus fiction, can I ask?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (16:08)

absolutely, I’ve been that little fish. I’m certainly not anymore.

 

But definitely when I came out of my marriage and started dating, I was this anxious mess of a woman that was wanting to be chosen or wanting to be sued or in a waiting room. And I think there are many women that are existing like that right now.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (16:30)

So let’s start with the unavailable man because I reckon I’ve dated him more than a dozen times in my life. How do we spot him and why is he unavailable?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (16:45)

Something that’s interesting is We will only seek unavailable partners if we ourselves are unavailable. And often when we’re in that state we don’t know that, we think that we’re ready. Usually what’s happening again is this mirror from our childhood, this projection. So if we’ve had one or both parents that really haven’t been emotionally caring or stable or consistent,

 

we will be unconsciously seeking the same. So we will have learned that love is unstable, love leaves, love will never give me what I need. And so we’re operating with these unconscious organising principles that are taking us towards similar characters. So if we’re in that unconscious, we won’t actually be able to spot the unavailable man. We will see him and think he is our dream man.

 

and that he’s going to be the

 

one that gives us the love that we’ve been looking for our whole lives. And we will usually have very high, high, high chemistry with this person. We’ll be like, my God, I need to be naked all the time, please. That’s what happens. Once we do a little bit of our inner work, the way we can spot the unavailable man is through a few things. One is like looking at his patterns of communication. So does he sort of come and then go again?

 

So he’s there and then he’s not there, it’s really intense and then he’s gone, that’s a signal. Another signal

 

DI GILLETT – Host (18:11)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (18:12)

is love bombing. So someone that is very, very effusive and over the top or does this thing called

 

future pacing where they like to build this image of the future, I’m going to introduce you to my family and we’re going to go on this holiday and they start painting a picture. that’s usually a sign as well. Or somebody that doesn’t get deep with you.

 

Somebody who’s all fun and games but doesn’t actually inquire about your inner world or your fears or your history, all of these things. So there are all these little tells that let us know if somebody really available to love us. well. But if we’re blinded by lust.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (18:49)

Be so much easier if there was a questionnaire. wouldn’t it?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (18:53)

my God, yes. I mean, I think there should be a dating platform where we’re actually looking for emotional availability. I don’t think one exists.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (19:02)

Well, interesting you should say that. So during COVID, Natalia, two girlfriends of mine, one out of the same professional background which was executive search, and another businesswoman, we decided to build an offline introduction agency. and one of the three of us, was single.

 

over fifty had been single for a number of years and found the whole online dating process really underwhelming. And we built it in the model of executive search in as much as there was probity for safety and identify any red flags early up.

 

But also in the same way as you would seek to understand what somebody wanted in their career, we were seeking through consultation about what they wanted in life and and love. Now,

 

whilst men were very happy to sit down and share that with us, they weren’t very happy to give over control of

 

the search to to someone else. And I’m not sure that their true detail in being forthcoming was as honest as what it was from the women. So you weren’t dealing with

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (20:15)

right.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:20)

necessarily the right data to go to market with. And women loved the model, but there was just such a shortage of men that

 

Ultimately, along the lines also of the fact that down track indemnity insurance became prohibitive, we

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (20:36)

Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:36)

we wrapped it up after about two years because we realized that it didn’t have the ability to build and grow and scale is what we were looking for. But what men were looking for was completely

 

different and I think nearly all of the ones we ended up tapping in to were those unavailable men who saw dating be it online or offline, assisted dating as

 

simply a great place to find short term hookups, nothing meaningful, where women were looking for something meaningful. But let me tell

 

you, some of those women were complicated.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (21:14)

Yes, I have done quite a bit of research into the matchmaking industry as part of my own journey, but also writing these books. One day really want to write a series called The Matchmaker. I’ve already envisioned it.

 

Yeah, because I do feel it’s a burgeoning industry because

 

whenever there is a big social issue, someone will come along and try and, you know, capitalize on it. That’s just how our world works.

 

And so there are

 

more and more matchmaking agencies out there and the problems you’re describing are similar across all. The supply

 

DI GILLETT – Host (21:51)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (21:51)

of men who actually want to date but are ready and emotionally available is smaller than the supply of women. I do think that this is beginning to change, but I think one of the things you said that’s really important is to be able to ascertain what’s true.

 

Because

 

when people come to present for an interview, you you’re comparing it to executive search, there’s a lot of performance. There’s a lot of,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (22:19)

yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (22:20)

well, I’m going to say what I need to get the best outcome. And I think what we need in matters of the heart is vulnerability and to be able to tune into is what someone’s saying true or is there something deep beneath that. That’s one of my gifts, you know, to understand what’s really

 

going on in the unconscious.

 

And I do believe in this, I’ve talked about it with many friends over the last few years, there’s got to be the ability to include growth as part of the process. So if somebody comes along and I can see or the team can see there’s some emotional unavailability there, or there’s a tendency to defensiveness or to steamrolling, which actually is more of a problem for women to be steamrollers. There’s got to be the ability and the capacity to be open, to be educated and to grow.

 

And what, again, what would it look like if it stopped being about, you know, we’ve turned each other into products and love is now this game. It’s, know, the commoditization

 

DI GILLETT – Host (23:17)

commoditized. Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (23:19)

of love is the end of love. They’re not meant to go together, but our whole world is based on that. But I think we’ve

 

got to come back to honoring the journey of heart.

 

And how do you hold both of those together if it’s in a business? It’s a really complex inquiry. I think it’s doable.

 

But yeah, we’ve got to get underneath the performance because whether you’re looking on an app or whether you’re looking in a catalog from a matchmaker, it’s still a catalog. It’s still products. It’s not real.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (23:50)

Couldn’t agree more. Well coming up, let’s inquire further into what we’re really looking for in midlife relationships.

 

I wish I’d met you before we we started Partenaire Natalia.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (24:15)

well, we could always talk about doing something again, Di.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:19)

my heart of heart tells me we were too soon to market. Everybody was fractured

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (24:23)

I agree with you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:24)

after COVID. And whilst match and you mentioned matchmaking is is an established and growing industry, I mean, you know, if we if we look at India, it’s been going for forever. If we look at

 

Jewish culture it’s been going forever

 

then if we look at other other religions it’s been arranged marriages but even in the UK and I ended up talking with a huge international cohort within the industry. And

 

Established in so many other markets, but I do genuinely think the Australian male is a completely different beast.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (25:03)

I agree with

 

you. I mean, I’ve dated all over the world, I, all over the world.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (25:07)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (25:08)

And, you know, I’ve been, that’s what I’ve been doing the last nine years. Like I’ve been working and teaching and speaking all over the world and I’ve been dating as I go. And I just got back

 

DI GILLETT – Host (25:15)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (25:16)

from filming this documentary pilot about the New York dating landscape. And I think every country has a different microculture of woman, of man, of love.

 

And definitely the Australian male is specific. And yeah, I really believe there is an appetite, but the bit that’s missing is the growth piece. So we need to come away

 

DI GILLETT – Host (25:38)

Mm.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (25:39)

from trying to match each other as products and trying to see, how can we find that gap where we can grow to become available for healthy love? And this is a specific piece of my work and these books. Like if we don’t do this personal development work, the outcome won’t change and we’ll just be blaming

 

the market or the apps or the men or the women or our age or whatever,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:01)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (26:02)

but it all comes down to us showing up to become beautiful humans, to become available

 

both to give love and to receive love. And I think we’re living in this age where we’re in this double bind, where giving and receiving have both become very challenging. So

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:20)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (26:21)

the only way to end the romance recession is to heal.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:27)

There’s the name of your next book, Romance Recession.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (26:30)

haha

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:32)

Or maybe not. But your point and New York’s an interesting one. I can remember sitting in a cafe in New York with my husband about twelve years ago, and there were three guys at a table having coffee and sharing their feelings. Now it wasn’t necessarily about love, but they were sitting there sharing their feelings and we were sitting in the Lower East Side and it was

 

a beautiful day and one of them was feeling flat and the other two were there as a as a pick me up. Twelve years ago, maybe not as rare today, but twelve years ago, for love or money, you wouldn’t have found three Aussie guys sitting around a table sharing their feelings over coffee.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (27:12)

Yeah. It’s beautiful. it’s

 

beautiful. But now you would, but I feel like

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:18)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (27:18)

there’s almost this inverse. So every time we heal something collectively, there’s a shadow effect.

 

So I think there’s more and more men’s groups popping up globally and certainly in Australia and there are a lot of men

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:28)

That’s right.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (27:31)

that are being very attached to their feelings now and learning how to do what’s called presencing themselves. But what can happen

 

then is that the desire to feel oneself and to be in touch with oneself then makes relationship a threat. And so we go into just a different form.

 

of emotional unavailability where instead of being unable to communicate feelings at all, now I can communicate them but I don’t give a fuck about anyone else’s. And I’m going to use my

 

need to communicate my feelings and be in my own, you know, experience of healing as another block to intimacy. And I feel like that’s where we are in terms of the evolution of modern masculinity. But I feel it’s I feel like we’re in this this void space almost where men are

 

figuring out what is the next piece. Women as well.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:26)

Do you feel more positive?

 

Do you think do you think we’re heading into a better era?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (28:31)

I hope so. I hope so. I feel like for me personally dating over the last two years has gotten a little better, but I think that is partly due to my own growth and my own emotional availability. I think we’re getting there. I think we all need to be a bit patient with each other. And that’s something that we’ve forgotten how to do it. We’re all so impatient.

 

And that’s a function of this click, click, swipe, swipe world we live in.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:58)

Absolutely.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (29:00)

And sometimes we just need to let each other come online and allow

 

that bond to form and allow each other to be human or misstep or make a mistake. And we’re very quick at the first moment someone shows up in a way that we don’t like, we’re like, well, get fucked. Not gonna bother. And I think, you know, we need to be patient. And if we can be patient with each other, I do feel that things will start to change. And I can already feel that, you know?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (29:27)

However, I do think the older we get, what we will and won’t accept becomes so much clearer that we’re more likely to tell somebody to fuck off more readily than what

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (29:38)

Mmm.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (29:39)

we might have done when we’re younger, which is probably a bit of a segue into what we’re looking for in midlife dating. Are we as mature age, and I’m going to let’s let’s call midlife 45.

 

Forty five plus. is that cohort likely to go into the online dating pool? Is that where we play if we’re single?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (30:01)

Online dating, in-person events, both of them matchmakers, or everywhere.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (30:07)

Okay. do you need to be tech savvy to know how to to play this game? how do we even start with this, let’s say, online? Because if we’re talking midlife people, they probably had their earlier relationship experiences through

 

face to face meeting in whatever way, shape or form. There’s

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (30:26)

Hmm.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (30:27)

so many people who go into online dating for the very first time in midlife. And I know in the experience that we had in in testing an offline dating agency, that was such an uncomfortable place to play.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (30:45)

Yeah, I mean because you’re essentially required to sum up yourself with a few photos and an ad, like a few lines of sales copy. And so to reduce your 45, 50, 60 years of very complex humanity into a few photos and a few lines.

 

That’s pretty demoralizing, it? Yet we do it because

 

that’s the way we have to go. So it kind of makes sense that it would feel uncomfortable. But then you get

 

over the hurdle and you do it because that’s the way to meet people these days, which

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:18)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (31:18)

is a shame.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:20)

Mm. And I think in terms of certainly in my friendship group and and those that I talk to about this in general, I think so many women have now become more independent both emotionally and financially. So what we’re looking for in a midlife relationship looks very, very different to what we were looking for in our twenties or thirties.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (31:49)

It does look different, it should look different. So then the needs that we have when we’re younger and we’re trying to build financial security or start a family often don’t exist later in life. But I think something that happens, you know, on the female shadow side is hyper-independence, where

 

we think, we don’t need you for anything. And then we start treating men like crap.

 

And I think it’s totally unacceptable. And

 

there are a lot of women, there are a lot of midlife women who look down on men or use them as toys or shame them. And that’s an unprocessed wound as well. And I think it can be really helpful to think, well, what do I really want from a relationship? And certainly for the independent or hyper-independent woman, it’s actually all about care. It’s all about

 

care, emotional care and acts of service and companionship.

 

But many of us don’t know how to let that in. That’s terrifying. So

 

DI GILLETT – Host (32:48)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (32:48)

in our hyperindependence is also the avoidance of intimacy.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (32:54)

Mm. So if we if we’re looking for care but we’ve come out of past relationships and there’s whatever degree of baggage in our history,

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (33:06)

Mmm.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (33:06)

how do we take our history and use that as learnings and insights to positively move forward versus having a kit bag full of

 

baggage and wounds that we project on to the next relationship.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (33:23)

This is about becoming curious about our baggage of wounds because we all have them and we all have very

 

complex ones. It’s not just going to be one or two things and it’s a process to work through them. So for example, if we have been harmed before, we’re going to tend to be more defensive and we’re going

 

to tend to push people away and we need to check our brace every time someone approaches us with that care or that gentleness,

 

or that offer of support, we’re going to brace and we have to learn, this is my brace because this is my baggage and I’m going to soften and I’m going to lean in. And what happens then is fear comes up. And a large part of this dating dance is learning to sit with that fear and to take it by the hand and to walk forward gently anyway. It’s

 

a process. Whereas if we have had emotional neglect before or felt unseen in our relationship,

 

One of the wounds that we may project in is being very demanding and very critical.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (34:22)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (34:22)

Like that person is never going to give us enough. They’re never doing enough. They’re not seeing us. They’re not attuning to us. They don’t care for us. And again, that’s going to either sabotage a healthy relationship or it’s going to attract really the wrong person that is very, very weak and will do whatever we say. And then we end up not liking him because he doesn’t have a spine. Might’ve been there.

 

so we have to learn, okay,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (34:46)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (34:47)

my…

 

my tendency to want that person to feel all of my emotional practical needs, that’s my wound and I’m going to go and learn how to self-care so that I don’t project it in. So it’s work and we have to be prepared to do

 

the work or we won’t have a healthy relationship.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (35:05)

Yeah. And then to throw the curveball into the mix, we’re seeing I believe we’re seeing a prevalence in women redefining what they’re looking for in a relationship with heterosexual women now exploring a relationship with a female. I mean, I’ve got several in my world who have change preferences. what’s your view on that?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (35:29)

I

 

think it’s very complex. mean, I’m very heterosexual, but I also know many women who have shifted teams later in life. from what

 

I understand, a lot of that is about the emotional attunement and feeling met

 

and feeling understood and not necessarily having to battle or navigate some of those clashes of the man, woman wounding that comes into play. And, you know.

 

In the end, we all want a place where we feel soft and relaxed and met and cared for

 

and so whether that’s in the arms of men or women doesn’t really matter in the end.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (36:06)

Yeah,

 

yeah, I think that’s right. But it must I think trying to put myself to in the mind of a man, I think as females we’re evolving and we feel empowered by that. And at the same time I am mindful and ever conscious that we can’t project ourselves forward so positively.

 

And you’ve already mentioned it, to the detriment of leaving men behind or worse, belittling and and being aggressively and you know, emotionally aggressive in our

 

way we’re coming across to men. That that’s equally problematic.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (36:41)

Absolutely, I mean I sit with men and women all over the world and many men

 

have expressed me it feels really hard to be a man right now because it feels like

 

DI GILLETT – Host (36:50)

Yeah, I have no doubt.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (36:51)

no matter what they do they’re being told it’s wrong

 

and when you keep shaming someone what happens is they freeze, they atrophy and I think particularly in Australia that’s what’s happened in terms of the romantic pool.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:08)

Mm, I agree.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (37:09)

Many men are worried

 

that if they go and approach someone they’re going to get me-too’d. You know, or if they

 

compliment someone they’re going to get me-too’d or if they pay for dinner, pick up the check or open a door they’re going to get me-too’d. You know, so they’re scared. And

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:23)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (37:26)

there are women out there that are being very hyper-independent and projecting their past abuse into the dating pool. So it’s…

 

It’s difficult and then women are complaining that men don’t approach them but if they do approach them and they don’t think they’re hot then they’re really rude bitches. So it’s hard to be a

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:41)

Yeah. Well we all

 

change. I mean I you know as a younger person if somebody whistled at me from a building site I was offended. Now I’m overjoyed and disappointed if it stops happening. So, you know, we change

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (37:58)

Love me!

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:58)

Exactly. Yeah. I’m sixty two, so getting a wolf whistle off a building site is

 

A big deal I could tell you.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (38:07)

Very exciting. It’s interesting when

 

I travel, you know, to different countries, the men will be very different. Here I could go and sit on a bench at the park or in a bar and will not get approached. But in say New York, I’ll sit down anywhere and I’m approached within five minutes. And

 

DI GILLETT – Host (38:24)

Approached in minutes. Yeah.

 

Yeah. I think that’s big that goes back to the conversation we had before about men being prepared to talk about their feelings. I just think they’re emotionally more evolved than perhaps our fabulous Aussie men are.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (38:39)

Yeah, but I think there’s always room to heal and there’s always room to grow. But

 

I think it’s got to be collaborative. It can’t be, the men need to heal. It’s actually we’ve got to do this together. So

 

if I’m a woman and I’m saying, I’d love for a man to approach me, but then I’m really non-responsive or look down, I’m feeding the problem. So as

 

DI GILLETT – Host (39:02)

Yeah.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (39:02)

women, we help the situation by being open, by smiling, by learning to have a chat.

 

And we don’t do that either.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (39:11)

Now I know you’ve got another book in the wings, as the next one after Other Lovers and you’re writing more about the Unavailable Man. Has he evolved in the second book?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (39:23)

Yeah, so the second book, The Final Proof is right here, No Other Lovers. actually,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (39:27)

No other lovers.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (39:29)

yeah, so this is about her meeting actually an available man, finally,

 

DI GILLETT – Host (39:33)

Uh-huh.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (39:34)

after years and years of dating. And what happens for her is all of her self-sabotaging tendencies come up. So she’s met with this beautiful, handsome, emotionally available man that could be a perfect match for her. And she notices she starts pushing him away and her inner bitch comes up.

 

And in the book, you know, a lot of it’s about her working through that. And then them together trying to figure out how to create a non-traditional relationship structure, because they’re both established, big international careers, they’re divorced with children, they live in different cities. So it’s set between Sydney and Byron Bay.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (40:08)

Uh-huh.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (40:09)

And so it’s lot about exploring like, how do we finally lean into love and become emotionally unavailable? So that one’s out next month, and I’m currently writing the final book in the trilogy, More Than Lovers.

 

which is about

 

when you get into that committed relationship and life keeps changing and you keep going through seasons, know, aging, perimenopause, menopause, you know, wanting different things. How do you navigate that? So the journey continues.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (40:39)

brilliant. Well, I feel like I’ve lived the trilogy

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (40:44)

Love

 

that?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (40:45)

and all of that resonates. Natalia, could I ask you before we wrap today, and I think speaking to that forty-five plus female who’s struggling to find the perfect partner.

 

What would be a salient point you’d like to leave her with?

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (41:06)

Instead of trying to find the perfect partner, treat dating as a journey of learning. What can I learn about myself here and what can I learn about what I may want or not want here? And it just really shifts the focus. There’s a lot less tension, it’s a lot less fraught and it can be a joy.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (41:27)

Mm, brilliant. And I think that plays into the old adage that you’re more likely to find someone when you’re not looking.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (41:35)

Hmm.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (41:36)

So I think that’s where life surprises you. Natalia, thank you so much. Good luck with the second book in the trilogy and I look forward to seeing what the third one is and if if it’s a perfect happy ending for all of us.

 

NATALIA RACHEL – Guest (41:53)

Let’s see, I have no idea. Thanks so much for a wonderful conversation.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (41:56)

Thank you until next time.