Who Decided Experience Has An Expiry Date?

FULL TRANSCRIPT

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (00:02)
Jacqueline, power of women, what does that invoke in you?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (00:10)
It’s such an interesting question, isn’t it? When I think about women, there is nothing more important to me than being able to turn up authentically as yourself and to have confidence in who you are. And it doesn’t matter if you’re tall or short or fat or slim or what color you are or the shape of your eyes.

just being you and accepting that you is enough. I think that’s really important and in the work that I do, I of course come across a lot of women who haven’t reached that place yet. And I would love it if all women could get to that spot in their lives. Yeah, because when you do…

It’s, you feel like you can almost unleash yourself.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (01:10)
I agree.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (01:10)
It’s, apart from the fact I think it’s cathartic, it’s, you feel unstoppable and it’s a beautiful thing.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (01:20)
Beautiful.

and this is where we showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of incredible women. The question I’m exploring today is when do we stop valuing experience? And the tension behind that isn’t subtle and to help me explore this further is Jack Freeman.

Jacqueline has spent over three decades working at the highest levels in media and advertising sectors, and like many of us, noticed a shift. And over the years, our experience starts to work against us, not for us. That’s the shift that I want to explore today. And in response, Jack built 58 and Unapologetic, turning her own erasure into a global platform.

while still working in the media. So together we’re going to explore and I wanna make it very clear, your experience is leverage. Joining me from New Zealand, JACQUELINE FREEMAN welcome to the POWER OF WOMEN

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (02:43)
What a pleasure. Look at us with our matching hair and matching glasses.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (02:48)
I

know, the dark and light. I love it.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (02:54)
When

I grow up I’m going to have pink hair too because I would…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (02:57)
There

you go. I am the older one of it. when you grow up.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (03:04)
People could tell.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (03:08)
Jack, for the people who don’t know you, can you tell us a bit about your career and your background?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (03:14)
Certainly, as you mentioned in the intro, which was lovely, thank you so much, Di. I have literally worked in media almost my entire life and I have loved it. I have been deeply passionate and thrown my entire self into it at varying times, giving more of myself to the roles than I probably should have done.

which has resulted in me being made redundant five times. That’s one of the things about living in the media world.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (03:49)
Yeah. Because

the average is about two, but media is brutal.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (03:56)
Media is brutal. And certainly

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (03:58)
you

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (03:59)
where I began in the newspaper industry was the category that was the most disrupted of any on the planet. so there has been a lot of change in my career. I’ve been lucky enough that I’ve held some big seats and looked after some very big budgets. And I’ve…

I’ve had some diversity in that too. I’ve worked for media suppliers. I’ve been a head of media and executive director at Ogilvy, the advertising agency, which many of your listeners will be familiar with. I’ve worked for myself, which is the other thing. So there’s lots in there. 30 years, you can pick a fair amount in.

It’s taught me an enormous amount.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (04:56)
Yeah, wonderful. So you’ve built a large audience or a large following, I should say. I think you’ve said you’ve just hit 20,000 followers in LinkedIn. You’ve done that in a mere 11 months. What is it that you’ve been talking about that’s been connecting with people?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (05:18)
It’s really interesting that I didn’t set out to be, I’m currently sitting in the top 1 % of all of LinkedIn’s 1.2 billion accounts, which came as quite a surprise to me, and 11 million.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (05:35)
That’s amazing.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (05:36)
And I didn’t set out to do anything except for to make a comment about something. I have a contract with

the New Zealand television broadcasters as their gem of communications. And we ran a campaign for the TV advertising paradox, which was essentially how could something be so dead and alive at the same time? And it talked about audiences and in the media, a lot of the buying makeup of audiences is for people 25 to 54.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (06:12)
Mm.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (06:13)
So,

We wrote an article… No,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (06:15)
Not us, Jack.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (06:17)
not us! And so I wrote an article that said, what if you’re 55 and over? What about us? We are 23 % of the population, but we’re 60 % of the wealth. Don’t you care about us? What a fuck up. What

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (06:39)
Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (06:40)
I wrote as my headline.

And before I knew it, my audience wasn’t just media people in New Zealand. This thing had flown all the way around the world a couple of times.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (06:55)
rightly so.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (06:57)
And

an outpouring of feeling and emotion around being discarded once you reached a certain age. So I responded to that and I wrote some more.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (07:18)
Yeah, there you go.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (07:20)
Before you knew it, had had three posts that, when you’ve had about 100,000, it’s theoretically viral. I had one that was at 380,000.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (07:35)
All

on the same thread. Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (07:38)
When that one blew up, I, at that stage, had reached, I was the single biggest voice on any subject in the Southern Hemisphere on LinkedIn.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (07:55)
Wow. What was the interest in gender, male versus female?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (08:03)
Definitely more women. So to give you sort of more sort of insight into what was really coming through, because it kind of blew my mind actually, what it was how people felt discarded,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (08:20)
Mm.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (08:21)
how they felt irrelevant, how they had lost their jobs, how they couldn’t get a job. And then it told me that

no matter how many times they applied for a job, they just got ghosted. They heard from no one. And it blew right out into mental health and a whole number of things that we can explore today and on other days because it’s evolving and I’m learning more and more and more. But I started, the more research that I did about us as we age began to open up

I guess a Pandora’s box, which was, hang on a minute. Everything you believe or I lead to believe around aging is actually a lot of rot. It’s

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (09:13)
Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (09:14)
absolute rubbish. And we as women, particularly, women over 45, really, you are being judged.

as if you were that same age in the 1950s.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (09:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is so true. So, your own erasure, how many redundancies? Five. Five, okay.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (09:47)
No, they’re not.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (09:51)
Yeah, what age were you the first time?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (09:56)
I think I might have been around 40,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (09:59)
Okay.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (10:00)
but I was in very big jobs, you know, so very big jobs.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (10:05)
Was age the issue or was it a lot more of that at stake? I don’t it

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (10:10)
I don’t know if was I

also worked in a very, very male dominated world. And I, without doubt, worked three times as hard as any man. I can say that unequivocally and they can scrap it out with me as much as they like. I was the second only female in a really senior role in a company that employed 6,000 people.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (10:36)
Wow. End.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (10:38)
I worked unbelievably hard to get there, but what happens is if the market turns, which it does, we’re in one right now, and they will find someone to blame. And a business will make cuts. And what I’ve noticed is the boys club will look after the boys. And I…

I believe that certainly during that time of my life, women were unfairly represented, I believe, in those numbers.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (11:15)
Yeah. So at what point did you realize getting back into work after a couple more of these redundancies was a very different challenge?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (11:30)
had my most brutal redundancy. That wasn’t where I noticed it. We can talk about that one if you’re interested.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (11:42)
I mean, if it’s relevant, let’s go there. What makes a redundancy brutal?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (11:48)
So I was New Zealand’s youngest person to have both of my knees replaced at the same time. I had a very big job and

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (11:59)
Medically not an award you wanted.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (12:01)
No, you see, I’m a young person now. went, pin up girl for that.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (12:07)
Bye!

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (12:08)
But when I was in, I worked up to the Friday before the Monday of the surgery, my legs were completely bowed. I couldn’t stand up unaided. I had the operation on the Monday. Totally reinvented my life. Like, I left the hospital on the Saturday and I never used crutches again.

But on the Thursday, my new Australian employer came in with a large bunch of flowers in one hand and a letter of disestablishment in the other.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (12:48)
I know what I would have done with the flowers.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (12:50)
Well, I couldn’t get up off the bed. But at that stage, I was one of only three people this company theoretically could never do without.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (13:02)
And I’m pretty sure that there would be question marks about how credible that is as a redundancy.

It’s right up there. Forget legislation, just simple human decency.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (13:22)
And I think this is an organization that I had given more of myself to than I can’t even begin to tell you how much I loved it and what I did for it.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (13:35)
So you’re identified through your title and what you did.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (13:38)
It was not even the title, it was the work that I was doing and the people who I worked with and who worked for me and you know I had a lot of impact on a lot of people. We can talk about that particular subject perhaps in another…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (14:02)
Yeah, another podcast.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (14:04)
But, but.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (14:06)
So when did ageism start to become the issue?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (14:09)
It just hit me in my later 40s, I’m going to say about 49. I had to take a year off work because my son was very unwell. And when I left the workforce for a year, I had another large job and

I had always been headhunted and never actively looked for work in my life

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (14:43)
Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (14:44)
and I just assumed that I

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (14:47)
That would continue.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (14:48)
job back in as if it had always been I’d be in demand and I found out that’s simply not true.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (14:57)
Yeah, that’s a shock.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (14:59)
It was a huge shock and what I noticed was

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (15:05)
how quickly the world moves on and forgets us.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (15:08)
I’m like, I’m exactly the same person that I’ve always been. I’ve got this huge CV. am well liked as far as I know, I’ve left it, you know, a pretty decent kind of pedigree. The only thing that has changed is my age. There were roles, there was a particular role comes to mind where there’s, I know for a fact, there’s no one in the country who would have been more qualified than me. I didn’t even get in.

And again, I got ghosted. couldn’t get a reply. I didn’t get a reply. I’m like…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (15:44)
Are

you dealing with headhunters or directly with the organization?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (15:49)
These were jobs through trade boards, job boards and I was like, this is a rot. What happened was, and I talk a lot about this on my platform, which is the impact it had on my value of myself.

I started to think, well hang on a minute, I’m not worthy. And in fact, a friend of mine, I know she was trying to be kind, but she said, well you just have to accept that your big jobs are behind you now. I was like,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (16:30)
No.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (16:35)
lot

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (16:34)
No.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (16:35)
of lashes to give, there’s no way. And it kind of knocked me over.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (16:44)
Did you tell them that?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (16:46)
No, I’ve never told her actually, never. she watched and she was going to find it out. I didn’t do anything and I was quite, it actually hit me quite deeply because I had always thought I was invincible, that I could do anything, I could break any glass ceiling there was. And now I was in a situation where no one ever wanted to talk to me. I could not get an interview for Love or Money. And when I did get one,

I never got to a second one. And I couldn’t understand it. And on my platform, I have spoken to, I’m going to say thousands of people, because it would be, thousands of women in particular, who face something almost identical.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (17:39)
Yeah. So when we talk about ageism in the workplace, what are we actually saying?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (17:52)
It’s actually a really tricky one, ageism in the workplace, theoretically it doesn’t exist. I’d

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (18:00)
called bullshit so

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (18:02)
definitely call it, because theoretically, particularly in the countries we live in, equality is active. It’s absolutely not. I can assure you of that.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (18:20)
Let’s start to point out all of the members of community who feel that that is not true.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (18:26)
Yes, and it doesn’t take long to run quite a big list on that. So what I find, and again it’s through having spoken to so many people, I think at one point I would have had the largest insights panel in my DMs, probably in the world, when it got to the subject of mental health I got thousands and thousands of DMs, which

broke my heart and I actually did a podcast on it because I was so upset about it and it actually comes as a direct result of how ageism plays out. So for women, women will start to notice it particularly when they’re around their mid-40s.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (19:15)
Hmm.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (19:17)
Why do you think that might be?

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (19:20)
menopause.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (19:21)
No.

Which if I asked anyone they will say the same thing, menopause. No.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (19:29)
What is it?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (19:32)
It hasn’t impacted you and I this particular one, but it’s when women start to have grey hair. Because until we’re about 45, we look like ourselves. Our face doesn’t really undergo much of a change. And then somewhere in like 20, 42, 3, 4, 5, 6, somewhere around that, we start to get some lines or maybe some…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (19:58)
Yeah, I’ll gel

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (20:00)
And the gray in the hair, just natural parts of aging. And now we are somehow that’s tied to our worth, which is an absolute load of rubbish. Somehow it’s tied to our worth. then…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (20:16)
perception of our worth.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (20:18)
And that plays out in your how you may go forward with roles.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (20:29)
Look it’s not lost and you say we haven’t faced it. mean it is not lost on me and this is going to sound egotistical so I need to be careful how I phrase it. But it is not lost on me that how I present has worked in my favour.

And that should not be the case. But it is not lost on me that that be the case.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (20:57)
correct and because you present as younger. But yet you have all the wisdom and experience of a woman in her sixties which is extraordinary.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (21:10)
So

why the hell did it look like

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (21:13)
your cognitive well-being.

but there’s this very, very outdated belief around age, which I would love to explore with you. And it determines our worth and the eye of employers. And women will start to feel it in their mid-40s around their progression, the value they may have in meetings, how…

when there are cuts and people get pushed out women will now really struggle to get back into the workforce particularly when they’re in their 50s. The further up their 50s they go this gets much much harder. Di, how many weeks do you think if you were out in the workforce now and you’d lost your role in Australia

that you would be out of work for as a woman in her early 60s.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (22:17)
would hope it’s only, I think if it’s a senior level role there’s less of them. So at the point you know the tree. So my advice would it could be three to six months but I have a horrible feeling you’re gonna say it’s a hell of a lot longer.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (22:34)
No, it is horrible. In Australia, and you will have a large Australian audience, the average time that a woman in her 50s will be out of work is 86 weeks.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (22:53)
86 weeks, a year and a half.

I’m almost tempted, you know, I’ve still been headhunted up until the last 18 months, but because I’ve made it so very clear that I do not wish to pursue the executive search space that has come back, I am almost tempted to poke the bear and pretend to start to apply for a job and see what…

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (23:23)
I think you might be in a slightly interesting position because if they can’t guess you’re a… because remember that…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (23:30)
I

it from my LinkedIn. My LinkedIn will tell it. I wouldn’t hide it.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (23:35)
What happens is When you apply for a role, in the most part now a machine is doing the reading and one looks for things that age you. And if I look back now to the … School.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (23:50)
Blah, blah, Qualification

year. Blah,

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (23:54)
What

It does, looks, it’s looking for them. And when you talk about any types of technology or things like that, anything that enables it to work out how old you are.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (24:06)
So the algorithm’s biased to start with, that’s what you’re saying.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (24:10)
It

is biased to begin with because the person who will enter the details into the system will most likely be a younger hiring manager

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (24:21)
Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (24:22)
and their own personal bias will lean into this and that’s a huge problem. So when I look back at the CVs I was writing, I look back and now I couldn’t have got it more wrong if I tried.

Every, I presented my CDs as if I was still doing them, let’s call it a decade earlier, they were stunning, they almost like a piece of art.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (24:53)
Yeah, and they were working against you.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (24:55)
anywhere they will go nowhere

absolutely nowhere you’re penalized for that kind of

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (25:03)
and and yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (25:04)
I’ve actually started, I mean I’ve helped a lot of people rewriting their CVs and their LinkedIn’s to get them fit for purpose so they can get work. And last week I had two people on the same day, one had been out of work for 24 months in the US and a woman in New Zealand. He was about to lose his home, and a woman in New Zealand

who had applied for her dream job. She hadn’t even got an interview. I redid her and her LinkedIn and she got all the way through and got the job.

So it’s how we with ageism is pretty darn cruel. It is baked into the hiring algorithms.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (25:53)
I’m married to the media in Australia, I know how damn cruel it is.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (25:57)
And so you, it’s…

I think it’s what most people of our vintage won’t know that the way they show up authentically as themselves will not get them a job in 2026.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (26:17)
Yeah. Yet how prepared is the average person to be told that they need to address that without that being damn confronting? mean, if you and I said, okay, let’s pitch a tent tomorrow and start a business and say, let’s get women 50 and older job ready. How many people do you think we would offend if we said, okay.

We’re gonna have to address looks, we’re gonna have to address what you say on paper, but they’re gonna go.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (26:50)
It’s a really interesting question that you had. I spoke at a Chief People Officer Summit and I was quite brutal in my wording of some things in there because I wanted them to really get it because at a global level, I don’t think anyone else would probably have as much feedback as I had about specific things. My DMs…

I would go to sleep at about 12, set my alarm to wake up at 3 to answer all the things so then get…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (27:22)
I’ve received emails from you on New Zealand time and I know it is well past midnight.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (27:29)
Because

I can’t, because I try really hard to respond to everybody. Because so many people get ghosted. want to, I don’t want to be that person.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (27:39)
Yeah, I know that feeling.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (27:41)
I’m not sure how sustainable it is at 20,000 followers, but I try very hard. Because it’s not a me, it’s a we. You know, we have a movement for 58 and unapologetic and we are collectively

pushing back against ageism. And I think when it comes to, I guess there’s a couple of things. How prepared is anybody to be out of work for around 86 weeks? Almost no.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (28:11)
Yeah.

Unless you’ve already prepared yourself for retirement, nobody is.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (28:17)
And sadly, most women who are in their 63, 45 will never get back in the workforce.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (28:27)
Yeah, and they probably had broken careers for all the reasons that we know and their superannuation is not in top shape and it’s… and it’s a real issue.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (28:39)
which is

when they face you know divorce they come off very poorly and as you know in Australia because it’s pretty well documented the cases of women in particular who are living in substandard living because

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (28:57)
Yeah, because of this, exactly this.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (29:00)
And this is a primary feeder to that. I, it’s objectable to me. just, I find it deeply upsetting, which is why I try so hard to help so many people. And one of the things with that is, one of the discoveries I made, Di, is that we don’t reach our cognitive peak until our late 50s, early 60s.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (29:26)
Wow. So look what the workforce is missing out on.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (29:31)
And once I tell…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (29:33)
And I know that in myself that I’m at my intellectual peak. I know that. You would know that in yourself.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (29:44)
I feel confident in who I am, how

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (29:47)
Mmm.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (29:48)
I am, and in

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (29:51)
Your breadth of knowledge.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (29:55)
And I think when you are dealing with people who are really broken, and what I’ve discovered has broken so many people, and you will really appreciate this from your career, is when you think that you are of value, and then you find not only can you not get a job, you cannot, no one will even reply to you. And I’ve got…

I’ve got people who’ve had 250 or 300 CVs go out and not just crickets.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (30:29)
Yeah, that’s soul destroying.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (30:31)
Absolutely

nothing back. And then you will take and then your life will start to fall apart. I had a particular woman who was a lawyer in the UK who lost her job during COVID and then she took me on a journey of how much her life spiraled downward and she tried to take her own life. And a lot of it

came down to the fact that she just couldn’t get seen anymore.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (31:05)
And

that’s somebody with the smarts to hold a law degree.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (31:09)
She was 50 and no one wanted to know her. because we had these beliefs around ageing, it was just so utterly out of date.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (31:18)
Coming up, more about combating age discrimination in the workforce.

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. I’m talking with Jacqueline Freeman, founder of 58 and Unapologetic. Hey, Jack, something I haven’t asked you. Are you going to change the name of the business every year that you turn older?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (31:49)
No, lots of people have asked me that. When I

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (31:51)
I know it’s a cheeky question but it’s one I’d go through my

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (31:58)
began, when I talked about that very first post, basically I said, look, I’m 58 and I’m unapologetic.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (32:05)
Yep, and you’re gonna stay 58 forever now? Bloody clever!

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (32:07)
And

then people started to go, I’m 57 and unapologetic, I’m 82 and unapologetic. I started getting all these messages from these amazing women who would say what age they were and they’re unapologetic. So when I turned 59, which was on the 1st of March, I did a post about that I was 59 and completely unapologetic.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (32:34)
I saw that

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (32:35)
I wouldn’t be changing the name. No, will forever be a movement of 58-year-olds.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (32:42)
Yeah,

it’s not apologetic. Yeah, there you go. So you’re always going to be 58. That’s very clever.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (32:47)
I’m gonna age down, I’m gonna be the beans even faster.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (32:51)
Well funny you should say that my my brother’s long-term partner says and she’s she’s into fitness in a big way and done some amazing things she’s only a couple of years younger than I am and and we often talk about our Benjamin Button reality because we we’ve both become younger through our pursuits of wellness and and health so and probably metabolic

Metabolically speaking, we’re probably away, away younger than.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (33:24)
than we would be and I think sort of a lovely segue into can I share with you about how we age now and think to

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (33:35)
Yes, yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (33:37)
share this with people it helps them stand taller and I love that and they feel really good about themselves so I think if I share with you how I believe our

views on aging were…

framed in many ways, not completely, but this certainly led into it. In the later 1800s Otto von Bismarck designed the

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (34:12)
Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (34:14)
And that was, at 65 you would get a pension. Average life expectancy if you survived infancy was 61. So those payouts weren’t great. That scheme was picked up by the Western world and it went through some changes in the 20s and in the 50s and the 70s. And here we are in 2026.

where we are now living 100 year lives. Our retirement schemes around the world are in New Zealand we’re 65

It’s in the UK it was 65 for men and 60 for women and now it is 67 for men and 67 for women. Imagine being a woman who got hit with that when you were doing your savings scheme to knowing you could be paid something at 60. It moved to 65 and then to 67. It just grandfathered its way out.

and Finland is 72. know, so there is a, because no country can afford it anymore.

can afford it which is why it is moving up and why it’s been talked about so much in New Zealand as well as

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (35:41)
Moving up, but you still can’t get a job because we’re still rooted to the old view.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (35:46)
Then

if you go, Okay, well if I’m a woman in my late 40s and I lose my job and I live in Australia, I can’t get a job but I can…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (35:56)
I’ve

got 30 years until I can’t access retirement funds

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (36:01)
Can’t get a pension until I’m 70, How am going to live? What am I going to do? And this is the reality and no one’s talking about it. If I look at your government for as an example because I have a wonderful follower who he does some investigation on different governments and their

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (36:21)
Yeah, don’t look at ours. It’s pretty ordinary.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (36:24)
Yours is absolutely terrible for aging. I see In my naivety when I began I assumed that

all governments would have

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (36:42)
Plans for this.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (36:43)
jobs for life you know you started and you aged out you know you got your gold watch you know but if you look at Australia and New Zealand it’s really no different as is the UK and Canada because I’ve seen these as well they’re all terrible they are not a good employer of people who are aging they’re absolutely terrible. they are falling for the same rot that every other business is

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (37:10)
So are organisations consciously making this decision around ageist strategic moves?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (37:21)
No, I don’t think so. think what it is is we are all brought up based on, if you think of the Western world, we’re fixated on a number. it’s their fifth birthday. it’s their 21st. it’s your 40 and you’ve got a card that says you’re over the hill. It starts at 40, you’re over the hill. You’re not even halfway through at 40. You’re cultured to peak is still 20 years away. And so I think we had these

inbuilt beliefs around how age works. But the reality is we’ve actually moved almost a generation in our wellbeing and I would argue you’ve moved four, moved even more because of the conscious effort that you and your, let’s call it your sister-in-law have made in it, which is, so a 70 year old today has the same

Cognitive well-being as a 53 year old head in the year 2000

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (38:23)
Yeah, that’s yesterday. That is such a shift in such a short

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (38:28)
And so literally we have, we are about, on average, about 20 years younger than our grandmothers were the

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (38:37)
Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (38:37)
same age. I’ve got a wonderful post, a lovely follower of mine called Pamela, Pamela Green actually. She shared a photograph of her Nana at, I think Pamela in the photograph, I might have to correct myself on this, I think is 55, 54, 55, something like that.

and she looks amazing and she posted a photograph of her grandmother at the same age going to her

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (39:06)
That’s an interesting thing to do.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (39:10)
They are night and day.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (39:13)
day.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (39:15)
So this is what aging looked like in the 50s. You can’t recognize the two people at all. so when you put them up like for like, you get a very clear view on how much things have changed.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (39:29)
Yeah, need we need a campaign of that because that is I mean visually such a powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (39:37)
And what’s happened is…

in our psyche because we’ve been brought up this way, all of us, we still see Pamela’s manner.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (39:50)
Yeah, when we hear that number. And AI is going to see that because AI is being fed with all of the biases that we’ve just talked about. So AI is going to perpetuate it. So there’s no point in asking you, is AI playing a role in this? The question is, how the hell do we stop AI perpetuating this and making it worse?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (40:17)
So there are sort of the systems that run the recruitment world. There’s about six of them that are the most dominant ones around the Western world.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (40:29)
Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (40:32)
Some of them are slightly better than others. Some have a bit more of a human factor in them. There’s one built out of New York that he was involved in a previous rendition of one and moved away from it to recreate one that had a bit more.

humanity to it, let’s call it. But where I go, those systems don’t operate on their own. They must be fed with information that is coming from the employer. So I go back to employers and say, which is what I did at this Chief People Officer Conference, I was quite strong minded about this one.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (41:11)
I’d only get invited to one of those jacks that throw me out

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (41:15)
Oh,

I don’t know that I’d be invited back. I called it out and there was a woman in the room and I said, you know, how many of you are the same age as me? That stage is 58 and one would end up grey hair. And I said, do you know if you were in Australia today and you’re out of work that it would take 86 weeks for you to get a job? And I said, and part of that is because your hair is grey.

She was offended by that.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (41:45)
I’m sure she was.

That’s the facts. Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (41:51)
She will employ people.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (41:53)
That’s why I said, how do you think we would go if we pitched a tent and said to people, these are some of the changes you need to make to fight this?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (42:04)
If you think of it like Trini and Susanna, when they were there, know, maybe that’s what we should be doing because

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (42:12)
Maybe it is.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (42:13)
as a way to get people, I’ve already, as we spoke about off camera, I’ve been already helping people get fit online and that is working. But it is more than that. Because at some point, if you get through the interview, sorry, through the

through the AI and the online process, you’re going to have to turn up physically at some point.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (42:39)
Yeah, I have a feeling 58 and unapologetic is meeting power of women and somehow we’re going to do something about this. Because we’re pretty well credentialed to do something about this.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (42:52)
It’s like a plague that is running through them. What upsets me the most, and again I mention this off camera, is how much women’s mental health is impacted by this stuff. And I take huge offense to this because when I tell women that they haven’t even reached their cognitive peak, or

You’re you’re right in it. And when they hear that, it’s a joyous thing to be heard, because they think that, they feel that they’re actually just too old now. And the world has told them they’re too old and they don’t matter. And I am very loudly shouting, you do matter. Now that brings up a really interesting point, which I want to share with your, that your great people who follow you.

I went from having this very, very big voice on LinkedIn to all of a sudden just falling silent. I’m like,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:05)
and that wasn’t what you did.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (44:08)
people not, people stopped liking my content. Cindy Gallup made me aware of

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:19)
I’ve been reading some of her work.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (44:21)
Algorithm throttling.

And when you are someone who speaks up loudly on what is considered controversial subjects, for example, women.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:34)
Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (44:37)
ageism, that

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:38)
Hmm

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (44:39)
LinkedIn will suppress your communications.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:46)
I have a feeling LinkedIn doesn’t like the name Power of Women.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (44:50)
Yes. Well, what I’ve found, I mean, there’s been lots of testing by women on this and they’ve all found that if they represent themselves as men,

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (44:59)
Well, I spoke to Jas Badir only the other day and she represents herself as a man on LinkedIn.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (45:06)
There you go.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (45:09)
Isn’t that screwed up in so many ways?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (45:13)
was thinking surely not right so I you know wrote some more posts and they’re getting nowhere I was getting no

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (45:20)
I’m going to test that. Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (45:22)
I was getting no traction and so there was a man who popped up on one of the, I don’t know if it was on Meta or wherever I saw it, but he was talking about it and because if you talk about it on LinkedIn that also suppresses you. You can’t, you’ve got to do it way over here, it’s your thing aye. And so I asked him could he have a look at mine, so he went to my previous seven,

posts and all of them had been in pictures.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (45:56)
He could see that.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (45:58)
Yeah, yes, he could. He said all seven of yours have been impacted because the math doesn’t work. I got to some stage, I had one impression for one person. It doesn’t work like that. The math doesn’t work like that. I mean, I work in media, which is why I know I’m like, this, you know, this is, this is really bad math. And, and so what it does is it lets you storm out into the wilderness to see if you are

attractive to followers and then as you grow them and it gives you a false sense of identity. I’ve had loads of people go hey I’m you know I’ve been I’ve picked up on what you’re doing and I’ve now my poster’s done this and I said

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (46:43)
Just wait.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (46:44)
come back to me when you’ve got three that look like that and they’ve all disappeared. It’s very hard you’ve got to you’ve got to keep going through the you’ve got to be a bit careful how you write.

On average, it can last up to five weeks. I’ve had two lots of five-weekers where I get suppressed.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (47:04)
You would have thought, you know, you can go out on the dark web with some horrendous, be it pornographic, extremist views and writing the facts on a credible platform like LinkedIn gets you throttled. I mean, that’s a WTF moment if ever there was one.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (47:28)
I could not agree with you more. I was really shocked. I did quite a bit of research on it and in fact I was so upset about it. I thought, you know what, one of my followers was well connected to the CEO of LinkedIn Asia Pacific. I said, so I went online, wrote to

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (47:52)
Yes, that’s yes, I’m inclined to do that straight to the source.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (47:56)
He ignored me. So I went back and said, I’m going to be in your comms every single day until you reply.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (48:06)
I love you.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (48:09)
Within two days he was thinking, my god, I’ve got to get rid of it.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (48:13)
Yeah

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (48:14)
And he sent me a whole lot of baloney about it. look, some of it I can accept, is, and even I’ve worked this out, which is, LinkedIn doesn’t make its money from huge follower bases. They make their money from people who aren’t getting enough traction, who need to buy advertising to promote themselves. That’s the…

the model.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (48:39)
There’s the uncomfortable truth in that, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (48:44)
And so.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (48:45)
And so YouTube will be the same with follow, they’ll all be exactly the same.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (48:52)
That’s how they make money. They can’t make money with you getting really big and talking to lots

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (48:57)
successful simply utilizing their platform and spending not a cent to do it.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (49:02)
paying

you know your $80 a month subscription fee. They’re not happy with that.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (49:09)
I need my head spinning about how does large fall. Yeah, there’s a more podcasts to be had Jack. I. Yeah, interesting, isn’t it? One of my.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (49:24)
who is a man in his 70s from the UK who does, he’s phenomenal. He teaches young women around engineering and he’s on lots of boards and he’s a massive advocate for women. I love him. And he went to help his things get through when he talks about women. So he spoke to me about this directly. They will use a naught rather than an O.

just as these little forms of trickery to make sure his own work where he is talking about women doesn’t get throttled.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (50:00)
Isn’t that interesting?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (50:02)
based on how when my posts are allowed to extend.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (50:12)
Run free.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (50:14)
I probably should have about 45,000 followers by now. I get shrunk back all the time. I go through shrink back stages.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (50:22)
And I do suspect I am being penalized just by the mere brand name. what I say beyond that. isn’t it interesting, when Jazz said this the other day, and I’ve certainly read what Cindy’s saying and talking about it now, I don’t know why I haven’t turned the mirror on myself and said, I experiencing that? Because, I mean, that’s my Veronica.

course I’m experiencing that. So it’s an interesting one.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (50:56)
can get bit tangled up and I’ve had some where I thought I’ve had it here’s a simple simple way for you to check it if you use CHEBT just take a screenshot of on your LinkedIn or where when you when you go you can view your

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (51:15)
stats, analytics.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (51:19)
and just get LinkedIn sorry just keep CHEBT analyzing for you it’ll tell you

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (51:23)
That’s interesting. I do know that if I stop writing about issues specifically around power of women and write about life events on health and wellbeing, they go through the roof.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (51:37)
The way to tell, the way you can really tell is if the impression number is not matching up because sometimes we just write posts that people are more interested in than others. So we have to accept that. But it’s about the math between the impression number and let me just open mine for a quick second now so I can get the right terminology for you, my darling.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (52:08)
I am taking down more notes than ever.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (52:11)
LinkedIn must be listening to us, it won’t let me open it. Bye.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (52:13)
Yeah, well isn’t that interesting?

Yeah, that won’t be a coincidence.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (52:21)
Truly,

that’s my London. It’s gone completely.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (52:23)
I know they listen. I mean, we know they listen. Let me see whether mine will let me.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (52:29)
Serious? can’t open it at all.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (52:34)
You’ve been cancelled. You’re in deep shit.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (52:37)
I can’t get onto my own. Isn’t that funny?

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (52:39)
Isn’t that bizarre?

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (52:41)
It’s just a strange little coincidence there. But what it does mean is for people who are campaigning for women as we are, it makes it harder. And so it means there’s got to be more of us. So you asked about, is it a conscious…

application by employers around age and I don’t believe that

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (53:10)
I think it’s an unconscious bias.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (53:13)
it is unconscious bias that we have been brought up to believe and I try to spend quite a bit of my time educating followers around followers who are most likely and I’ve got a huge C-suite

About 40, 50 % of my followers are C-suite. So, doing positions of authority. I want them to understand that all their beliefs around ageing are completely outdated. And so, the very people that you are pushing out should be the very people you’re pulling in. The most valuable…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (53:55)
In. Yeah.

If there was any message to close on, that is it. The people you are not interviewing and not bringing into your businesses are in fact exactly the ones that you should be. Maybe I have to go back and start a search firm for over 50s.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (54:22)
Well, I think there’s so much for you and I to talk about.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (54:27)
There is.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (54:28)
The subject is very broad.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (54:32)
Mmmmm.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (54:33)
It’s got a lot of challenges in it, and we have to have more people brave enough to speak up about it. And

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (54:41)
Yeah, I think that’s right.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (54:44)
also just to educate. You know, don’t know what you don’t know.

And we have to help people to break open those, that bias that you have. And I think the thing that I, my goal, I would love this. In fact, when I spoke to the chief people officers, it went nowhere by the way.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (55:10)
And they’re not having you back because you poked a bear.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (55:14)
and it is, I wanted the thought, I thought of New Zealand being a lighthouse. We were the first country to give one the vote, you know. Why could we not be a lighthouse around equality, true equality when hiring? And by its very nature, people who are over would get a job because they would be the most experienced.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (55:38)
experienced and the most in demand.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (55:42)
But the fact that that went nowhere, kind of tells me a lot. I’m quite determined. I tried it even through one of the recruitment companies, one of the globals. I loved the idea. It went all the way to the head office. I’m going to say it’s New York because I can’t quite remember where they’re from.

but you know them, where I wanted to see if I could have a global recruiter making its position around true equality and what that meant. And this particular recruiter doesn’t use any AI. How good is that? Love it. it over.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (56:31)
Interesting. Well, I was headhunted.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (56:35)
It fell over.

It fell over. They couldn’t fund such an idea and the funding on it was very light.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (56:41)
Yeah, you see the recruitment industry is intrinsically biased. I don’t think the search space as much so and in actual fact when I was headhunted in 2023 and I said and I was headhunted out of Europe and I said to them, do you know how old I am? They said firstly, yes and secondly, we don’t care. Wasn’t that refreshing. And that was one of the top four shrek.

out of the search firms. And that was great to hear, but I don’t think many people have heard that,

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (57:17)
I think that is becoming, we can’t say that there aren’t people getting jobs because of course they are. I work for the television broadcasters, they know exactly how old I am and I’ve got a wonderful contract with them. They support the work that I do which is fantastic.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (57:39)
Yeah, but not everybody’s as outspoken. So there’s a whole lot of things coming together that don’t make you the standard.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (57:47)
No, and I think, but I want, we have to help each of our employers and we do have to, and when you mentioned it earlier about how can we help women, you know, in our reinvented Trini and Susanna, know, Jack and Di, there is an absolute…

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:07)
There’s a song already for that, Jack and Diane. Of course, there is. There is. So this is meant to be. That’s how we

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (58:14)
I’ll eat them.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:15)
Yeah. That’s how we do it. Yep.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (58:18)
think there’s, I know already where the gaps are.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:22)
Yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (58:23)
And so do you. when I got, I was thrilled when I, this one in the morning and one in the evening, when they told me they’d got a role, and then I had to tell the other one, this one. And they were thrilled for that person.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:39)
Yeah, we see that’s what we want.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (58:41)
We do, we want more people feeling, more people.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:45)
Celebrating other people, yeah.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (58:47)
feeling uplifted and feeling like a valuable member of society because they are.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (58:54)
Well, we’re going to run out of time today, Jack, but what I’m going to say to the listeners who have stayed with us to the end of this podcast is you and I are going to have more conversations. We know that. What I want to hear from our listeners is what do they want us to tackle around this big hairy issue being ageism and visibility and

where that intersects in wellbeing and employment and all aspects of their lives. So I think I’m gonna throw it out to the listeners if you would let us know what you wanna hear more about from Jack and I because we are going to talk again and we might turn that anthem into an absolute calling, Jack and Diane.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (59:45)
Gotta be.

DI GILLETT [ Power Of Women Podcast Host] (59:47)
Beautiful. Thanks, Jack. Until next time.

JACQUELINE FREEMAN [Guest] (59:50)
It’s

been an absolute pleasure, Di. Thank you for having me.