FULL TRANSCRIPT:

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (00:00)

I’m a serial entrepreneur and I’ve built five businesses over the last 25 years. I also believe that life is not linear and our lives are all full of twists and turns to teach us who we really are and give us power in this world. I believe ⁓ integrity.

Connection and ⁓ curiosity are my main values in life, those three things. And I’m happiest, I think, when I’m creating something meaningful, surrounding myself with really good people.

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:34)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is where real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs and the moments that often don’t make the headlines but should.

So join the conversation and subscribe please wherever you listen to your podcast because that helps us amplify the message out there and be part of the power of women community. Have you ever thought about starting your own business? Today’s conversation is with Mandi Gunsberger, five-time founder, visionary dealmaker and powerhouse behind Babyology and Nourish Travel.

We’re going to talk about the real cost of entrepreneurship, which includes burnout, identity, and the pressure of holding it all together whilst building something truly extraordinary. It’s a fast-paced masterclass in business growth, connection, and the power of vulnerability. Mandi Goodensberger, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (01:51)

Thanks so much for having me, Di. I’m so excited to be here today and share all the good, the bad, and a lot of the ugly about building businesses and what that entails.

DI GILLETT [Host] (02:03)

brilliant. So let the masterclass begin. You’ve, look, I don’t even know where to start because there’s a lot with it, Mandi, but you’ve built five businesses, you’ve raised three daughters, you’ve successfully sold on Australia’s largest parent media company, which was Babyology. Where does your entrepreneurial spirit come from?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (02:26)

Yeah, that’s an interesting question to start with and I’d have to say number one, it would be my dad. He was 100 % my person and he was a very different type of entrepreneur, I suppose, in the 70s and the 80s. He was an entrepreneur for necessity, and to put food on the table versus what a lot of us do now. So, you know, he owned a record company. He was a jewelry salesman. He was a clown at kids birthday parties. ⁓ I remember at the age of

five going on newspaper runs with him at 5am, know, where you’d throw the newspaper out the car and it would end up in someone’s front garden. So, you know, he was always hustling just for the next dollar to be able to feed us, you know, very middle class.

that I grew up in and so he had to do that but I feel like I’ve always hustled from a young age as well. ⁓ used to, well don’t know if that’s a hustle really, I used to steal money from the bank in Monopoly when I used to play that with my sister. That’s more illegal than.

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:26)

Nope,

yeah, but it’ll be hustle.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (03:29)

No,

but I would have an auction in our room every week when we were kids and she was older than me and I would auction off both our toys to her and try and make a few bucks until mum found out what was going on. really from the age of 13, I worked in hairdressing salons. I worked in a bakery, you know, from 5am. I used to work in cafes or stock shelves at the supermarket. So I was always looking, you know, selling local cookies in the area and things like that. So I think that’s when it all started.

for me was in my teenage years and then moving over to San Francisco in my early 20s was just so incredibly eye-opening.

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:08)

What did you do? What was that?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:10)

Oh,

was crazy. So I was able to somehow wangle myself a work visa, which is very, very hard to do from Australia to America. But I just finished uni. I was 22 years old. I moved out with my boyfriend and I worked in hotels. I worked in the Hilton, Hyatt and Intercontinental hotels, which was a crazy world to be in. And I think I managed to get there because it was dot com era. So, you know, lot of regular people leaving regular jobs in the Bay Area to go for the dot com where you’d go canoeing on a Friday.

there’d be fizzball in the break rooms and all that stuff. So it was actually a good time for me to wangle my way in and to…

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:47)

Very

Google, Mandi.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (04:49)

It was very Google. It was when all of that was just starting to happen. And you’d see 22 year olds over there driving a Ferrari, ordering a burger with a $600 bottle of wine from Napa. So I think I just really was like, wow, that’s really impressive. So when we moved back from San Francisco when I was 24, 25, I really had that entrepreneurial spirit in me.

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:12)

Yeah, wow, great story. So with that in mind, what fuels you more? it the buzz of creating and scaling a business or is it the satisfaction of seeing the successful exit?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (05:26)

Oh gosh, 100 % they’re creating the business every single time. think, you know, the buzz of coming up with an idea, acting on it, working bloody hard for many years, you know, they’re not overnight successes by all means and turning it into something profitable that comes from that idea is just so rewarding. I mean, if you’re in it just for the exit in Australia, I think nowadays 10 % of startups, you know,

fail within the first year and 70 % fail within those next two to five years. So if you’re in it to be at that exit.

you know, 90 % it’s not going to happen. I think even higher if you’re a woman, to be honest. So a successful exit, while it is pure gold, it’s incredibly unlikely that you have that successful exit. So you’ve really got to love the build. You’ve got to love the drive. You’ve got to love working every second of every day to build something that you believe in. And I think, yeah, one of my incredible mentors, Jane Huxley, way back when actually taught me a very early how

you go into a new business idea while planning your exit. So it might never happen. But I think it’s worth thinking about when you build, like what you want it to look like. Do you want it to be a lifestyle business? Do you want to sell out of it? Do you want to stay on when someone buys it? You know, all those questions. Because I think that really affects ⁓ the way you build it. You know, determining how you set it up, if you take funding, who you take funding from along the way. So it does affect the final outcome.

So I do now when I launch something these days I do work backwards as to what does this look like in 10, 15, 20 years? Because that does really affect the way you run it but absolutely hands down I love the build. I love getting that first sale. I love you know when profit actually exceeds what it should be, what you thought it would be. Yeah, it’s never about the exit although it’s obviously very exciting. I did have one big exit but again five businesses one exit so. It happens all the time.

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:28)

Yeah,

but that that hustle is is what you developed as a kid. mean, that’s the kid trading off your toys in the in the bedroom.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (07:38)

Definitely.

And especially for someone like me where all my businesses are not in a specific area, it’s literally sitting there and going, huh, someone else is not doing this. So for instance, coming back from San Francisco and being obsessed with those triangular scones that they had at Starbucks at the time and thinking I’m going to be the next Byron Bay cookie company because that’s not here yet. You know, so it’s, it’s any idea I come up with, I just launch myself into and see where it goes.

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:04)

Yeah, and that’s a great visionary mindset to read what’s going on in the marketplace and be curious. And I love that attitude. So that’s pretty.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:14)

Absolutely, it’s about seeing what’s not around and then actually discovering why it’s not around. Maybe there’s a very good reason no one else has gone up against that company, but if there’s not, you just think, well, if I don’t do it, someone else might do it.

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:26)

Yeah.

So you’ve developed a reputation as a relationship ninja and visionary deal maker. How did those tags come about?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (08:38)

.

⁓ Look, I think I’ve always been a people person from a very young age, like from a child, and then moving into hospitality as my first career as well led me to understand and know a lot about people. And I think when I look at that and the way partnerships work, I look at partnerships as being a lot like great relationships. So they’re really about the people behind them and building those connections rather than, ⁓ you know, the paperwork and what goes into it.

I think for me trust and respect is a big one. So actually finding people who care about each other’s success is huge in this space. ⁓ Having shared values is another big one. It’s not just about the goals, it’s about alignment with one another. And honest communication often when you meet people or you’re trying to work on partnerships, ⁓ you know, it’s not working out and it’s about having those difficult conversations or working out how to pivot or going your own way at an early stage.

and realising it wasn’t meant to be. That’s very important rather than holding on to something for much longer than you should have because you think it should work out. So for me it’s always been about real connection with people, 100%. So any deal, any partnership, anyone I’ve ever worked with has started with a genuine chat rather than necessarily a pitch. And a great example I think of with something like that is a dear friend of mine, ⁓ Rob Antelov,

who’s actually an incredible ⁓ &A advisor. ⁓ He was and he still is. And when I was building Babyology, Rob, probably after two years, approached me or I met him through a friend of mine and we had a coffee and I was nowhere near any type of ⁓ &A exit, whatever. And this is what he does. But I think probably for the next six or seven years, I would have a coffee or chat to Rob every year or every 18 months and just ask for his advice and he’d give it out to me, with no idea that when it came

to what I would approach him. And I’d actually met other advisors through the journey and worked with them for a while. But when it came to, you know, me raising money at the end and selling the business and who I wanted by my side, hands down, it was Rob, because I’d built that trust with him. He’d given me all that knowledge over those years. And I mean, that was a brilliant experience for me and for him. And since then, I think I’ve introduced him to 15 to 20 other entrepreneurial friends who he’s, you know, given advice to over the years. Some of them he’s sold their businesses.

some of them he hasn’t but I look at that as a real pinnacle for what relationships and partnerships out there are is that whole you know you stand by someone for years you don’t know if it’s ever gonna go anywhere but when the time comes you know it might go somewhere and then it’s it’s a win for everyone so a huge influence in my life yeah no he’s good guy and I don’t think

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:25)

Yeah, to crystal

And I agree,

think partnerships are so hard. I I’ve worked for individuals who’ve been probably the longest standing partners in the search and recruitment world. And it’s admirable because it is not easy to choose partners. I’ve gone into business with people before and I’ve looked to go into business with people before and read the you know, seen the red flag just before we’ve done.

signed on the dotted line and I approached it really like a marriage because it’s much easier to call it before you get married than trying to unbundle it once you’re married.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:10)

and a lot of people don’t get to do, a lot of people find out after the time that it’s not a good fit with someone. And it really is, you spend more time than your business partner than you do with your actual partner if you’re in business. And one thing I’ve always done is I’ve never had a business with other people that, know, partnership with them. It just isn’t my style, I don’t think. I like to make decisions very quickly and you can’t often do that when you’ve got two or three founders.

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:37)

Well, when you got to buy in, I know I was in business with somebody you always used to say to me, and I love them dearly and they’re a friend, but they were, I’m like you, I’m a quick decision maker. And they would always say, I need to think about it overnight. I’d go,

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:52)

hahahaha

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:55)

Exactly. And that’s what I’m-

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (12:57)

I know yeah and look sometimes you need those people to slow you down because I don’t always

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:02)

They weren’t away,

they were often right. I often stop me jumping into the deep end too soon.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:10)

No, absolutely. But I also find that it’s hard to get slowed down. Board work is a great example of where everything moves very slowly on boards. And I’m like, we’ve got the meeting now. Why don’t we all just say yes? Why are we tabling it for the next three month meeting? I just don’t understand how that works.

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:28)

Have you had advisory boards wrapped around your businesses, Mandi?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (13:34)

I’ve had advisory boards but never actual boards which I think is for that reason. So I’ve always employed advisors or paid advisors or given them equity but I haven’t had a full know NED board experience around me. I’ve been an NED but I haven’t had them on my board because I just don’t think that’s a way that I work very well with seven other people telling me like this is what we want to do and we want to go back and we want to review this. I’d be like I’m already halfway there so yeah.

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:00)

Yeah, you’re one of these people it’s hard to keep pace with so I can see that.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:07)

Yeah, we’ll get to that afterwards. It’s not always the best way.

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:12)

Yeah. So when you’re networking, Mandi, when you walk into a room of people, do you scope out and know who you’re going to connect with? How do you approach it?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (14:25)

Do I think, and to be honest, as I get older, big groups of people and big conferences and big events is not necessarily my thing. I much prefer going to a dinner with 10 people or those smaller groups where you really can connect. But for me, I think it’s never about networking. It’s more about the connection. And I’m drawn to people who are authentic, who are curious, as I said before, and who aren’t very performative. So a lot of it, and I know it sounds crazy, but it does come down.

to gut instinct or that red flag as you were talking about. I’ve always been very good at reading people and I can read someone within five minutes which might not be very fair but I really can read them instantly and can usually tell if someone’s energy values and just feeling aligns with mine and I think it comes down to like if that conversation feels real and curious I will lean into it but if it’s very one-sided and all about their wins and all about what they’ve achieved.

or if they’re distracted looking over my shoulder at who else is in the room, I know that they’re probably not my vibe and I tend to stay away from people like that. And I think I’ve also, I’ve just got no time for small talk. I don’t wanna talk about where you’re going on holidays, your kids, the weather, anything like that. I wanna have real honest conversations about ideas and what drives people. So I think you can really make up your mind within a few minutes ⁓ what someone’s

going to be like and you you get that my god we’re very similar or you know this is not a conversation that’s going to be a deep thoughtful instance.

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:04)

Yeah, you’ve kind of described how my philosophy on life, mean, going to an opening of an event is I would rather stab myself in the eye with a pen. I think that term networking is almost a dirty word. You talked about collaborating and finding connection, much more appealing.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (16:26)

Exactly, collaboration is where it’s all at I think. And to give you an example, I recently did a retreat with 25 women in the Gold Coast which was incredible. Lisa Ailes was the host, she’s incredible. And they all came away, all these women said they’ve made lifelong friends. There are people they never thought they’d meet but they actually didn’t still at the end of the retreat knew what those other people did for a living. Because I think, you know, that whole what do you do, where are you from, where did you go to school, it’s all from the past.

a real conversation with someone about the fact that, I don’t know, you’ve got a deaf person in your family and they’ve got a deaf person in their family and you bond over something really real and you don’t actually know what they do but you know you want to be part of their world. So I found that really interesting that women can come away these days and not know if they’re a lawyer or a doctor or a librarian. It really doesn’t matter anymore because it’s all about if you connect with them or not.

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:21)

Yeah, I agree. So back to entrepreneurship, when you’re trying to scale, what’s the biggest mistake you see people make when they approach a potential brand or a business partnership?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (17:36)

Right. Look, I think for a lot of people, they still see it as the one size fits all model. So they’ll put together a beautiful shiny deck and it might look beautiful and it might have amazing information in it. But when you send that out to 10, 20, 50 different brands, you DM people on LinkedIn, track people down, it’s not going to work because I think true partnerships, they don’t work like that. It’s really about understanding what that specific

brand, all that specific individual, what their challenges are, what they care about and how you can help them achieve their goals. They’re kind of the three things that I always look at because it’s different for even like Apple to Samsung, it’s different from McDonald’s to Hungry Jacks. Even though you go, well, I’m going out to all these fast food because I want a fast food partner, it’s individual for every single one you do. And I think I touched on this before, but for my first eight years, was in hospitality.

And honestly, I think the world would be a better place if every 20 something year old spent some time in hospitality because it really teaches you what it means ⁓ to see people, understand people, how to have genuine conversations. mean, I was 19 or 20 and I was working at, you know, the Shangri-La in the city. And at that age, to be able to notice how people feel when you make them feel a certain way, it’s really affected the way I, yeah, the way I work in the

in anything I do in any specific business. And one of my all time favourite books, which I’m not sure if you’ve read, is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Garagno. my god, it’s like I’ve probably read it six times and I sometimes read it or listen to it in the car. But basically I recommend anyone read it no matter what industry you’re in. It’s a brilliant reminder that… ⁓

Yeah, you can make people feel truly cared for in this magic in the tiny things that happen. I think that that’s where people go wrong. It doesn’t have to be expensive. It can be the smallest tiny thing. And his book’s brilliant. He talks about one of the biggest things he did one day for people at his restaurant in New York, which ended up being the top restaurant in the world, but was go out and buy a hot dog for them from a local hot dog vendor because he overheard them say they’re about to leave New York and they didn’t get a chance to have

hot dog. So it was like a six dollar, you know, thing that he did, but he took it to the kitchen. It was cut into four incredible pieces. It was plated up. And because he overheard this conversation, it’s those tiny things that I’m always trying to do in life to, whether it’s my clients, my people that come on retreat or anything, I just try and surprise and delight them with tiny things that will make a difference. And I can guarantee you if there’s a partnership to be had, that’s the way to do it versus, you know, blitzing 200 companies with the same doc.

moment.

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:31)

I couldn’t agree more, And in my own experience coming out of the executive search world, I knew only too well that if I had approached somebody, my approach was going to unearth their sort of status quo at the time. these conversations used to go on for months and months and months. But I always emailed on a Friday afternoon, even when I had nothing to tell them, simply to say, no update, because

what it felt a short period of time for me, it felt like an eternity for them being on the hook. So it is those little things of caring about how people feel and putting yourself in their shoes that I think is so, so important.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:16)

And what that would have felt to that person on a Friday afternoon, it meant that they probably never went to any other executive search person because they’re

DI GILLETT [Host] (21:24)

Well, it’s

exactly that. It’s how I won business. you’re absolutely right. So you’ve painted a pretty honest picture of juggling work and you’re part of the sandwich generation like I am. So you’ve got everybody at each end of the spectrum. What does burnout and working under pressure look like when you’re actually at the center of it?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (21:54)

Yeah, that’s very interesting and very real still for me. I still work on that a lot. But I think burnout for me, it’s not necessarily lying on the floor unable to move. It’s more of a subtle and sneaky thing that it catches up with you. So it’s doing everything for everyone, as we just said, and feeling like I’m failing at all of it, to be honest. Because when you’re stretched so thin and you’ve got the kids and you’ve got parents, and let’s not forget, there’s a husband or a partner or someone, there’s clients.

and says all this stuff going on, ⁓ I’ve got businesses, I’m sitting on boards, I’m whatever, and there’s nowhere to turn. And I think ⁓ for me, it’s trying to even remember what self-care feels like because every second of every day, I’m up doing something for someone else. ⁓ I’ve had, full honesty, I’ve had two proper full burnouts, nervous breakdowns in the last 20 years where I literally couldn’t get out of bed. And so I think I’m hyper aware of the signs.

⁓ You know that happened with that it can be tears over losing your charger for your computer It can be sitting in the car for two hours before school pickup answering emails. Whereas really I should be going for a walk ⁓ You know, it’s canceling my yin yoga, which I adore which I did cancel this morning because I knew we were doing this but you know, but doing those things, know, they kind of all just come up on you and you know, sometimes it’s even like realizing you’re lying down for a pat smear and that feels great because it’s

first time I’ve actually lied down all day. and so even though that’s quite funny it’s also quite funny.

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:29)

It’s so good.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:32)

Yeah, you know, like you go, my God, I’m really looking forward to this, because it means I’ll just stop for five minutes. I’m like, that is not a healthy way to live my life. ⁓

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:40)

It’s not.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (23:41)

So

yeah, and look, and there’s no way of getting out of the sandwich generation. Like you can’t just throw it all in and run away. But it’s about learning how to manage all those pieces. So I think for me, I’ve learned through the two breakdowns, which actually take months to come back from. So if I don’t go to that place again, it’s actually much better to stop before I get there. So it’s obviously not being everything to everyone. Like sometimes I say to kids, it’s 7pm, I’m not going to cook, I’m actually going to bed to work.

Netflix I’ll see you all in the morning and I try and not have guilt about that because I know that I can’t possibly do that tonight. That’s just what I need and I think they’re fine with that. I cancel on things now which I never used to. Sometimes I have tickets to certain things and on the day I’ll say to a good friend you know I just I can’t I’m exhausted what I really need to do is go to bed and I’m okay.

with doing those things where I think for years when I was younger, I wasn’t okay with doing those. I pushed myself to go to that big event or that opening or, cause you know, what if I met someone that was gonna change my life now? I’m a bit like, I’m exhausted so I don’t have to do that. you know, having systems as well that save your sanity is good. And for me, it’s a small moment. So I’m never gonna get, you know, the big week away by myself to just ponder my own thoughts, but I will be able to have a laugh with the family.

I mean half the time they’re laughing at me to be honest, which you know either can make me laugh or cry Depending on my frame of mind, but yeah, it’s a dip in the ocean. It’s a one-hour Yin class It’s all those things I try and go in the ocean every single day now after I go to gym and I used to be like, oh, that’s a bit You know, I feel a bit guilty about doing that. Screw it, you know, go to gym go for a dip in the ocean I’m at my computer by 930 in the morning. So I think Yeah, it’s it’s really tricky to put those things into your life. But otherwise we

just burn ourselves into the ground. Our parents’ generation didn’t have laptops and mobiles and all this stuff where we were on 24-7, but I have the ability to wake up at 5 and start working and work till midnight. So it’s up to me to…

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:47)

Not those things.

I mean, it is a good point. I I grew up with a father who was on the land and the hours that they’d work, particularly during harvest, were ridiculous. And I probably learned to work to burn out by observing. And you potentially did too with a father that was going hard. And sometimes that’s just baked into our DNA, I think. And it’s to unlearn it.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:16)

It’s really hard to unlearn it. And I think for years, our generation has also been saying, oh, the younger millennials, they don’t know how to work. They, you know, they come in late, they leave early. I’ve actually changed the way I think about them and think, actually, we could learn from them. They’re out at run clubs. They’re leaving early to go to yoga or whatever. And I think like good on them. Whereas, you know, 10 years ago, I was like, oh, you hire people and they leave the office at 6pm. But like, good on them. We should have done that for 20 years.

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:44)

And you know, when I find myself thinking that, I do sometimes wonder whether we’re admiring them or we’re actually jealous of them because they’ve actually taken the decision that we haven’t done.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (26:58)

Absolutely, and we’re paying the price for that now. I would have loved to all those years have gone and left and gone to out with a friend rather than being like, can’t, I’m gonna work late tonight. Like I was the one forcing myself to work late. No one else was doing that. But I think that it’s great. They have much more of a balance than we do. Maybe they won’t have as many mental health problems in their 40s, 50s and 60s that we do.

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:19)

Yeah.

So do you have, do you have the ability now to realise when you’re getting too wrapped up in, your business?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (27:31)

To be honest, it’s something I’m working on. found a really, really good, she’s almost like a life coach, work coach slash psychologist. So she’s very good at actually, cause I came to her and said, after my last breakdown, which was only last year, I said, I feel like I don’t have that internal, other people are able to stop when they want to stop. I will take on more and more and more work until I have a breakdown because I’m just a yes person. So she’s helping me put systems in process.

in place and like at the moment we’re working on the fact that 2026 is full. Mandi you have to say no and you say to people from now on I can work with you in 2027 which doesn’t come easily to me but it’s just I think it’s going to be for the best so it’s I don’t feel like I’ve got that internal monologue but I’m working on it.

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:21)

But there’s a great message. You’ve recognized that you don’t, but it’s smart to put somebody around you who can manage that. So that’s a bit like six eyes and we’ve all.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:34)

Yeah, absolutely. And she’s in charge of that. Yeah, definitely. Like I said to her the other day, like I’ve kind of had two or three retreats a year, then six a year, and next year I’ve got 10. And so we’ve gone through and worked out that like 10 is actually the maximum amount.

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:50)

It’s

like doing ten weddings, Mandi. That’s a lot.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (28:52)

I

know, I know, each retreat takes like 350 to 400 hours. So, and I don’t do that, don’t sit down and work it out. So really what I’m going to need is staff at this point to help me do this. But I didn’t realise that she’s the one that looked at the hours, looked at the week and went, do you want to work 130 hours a week? I’m like, no, she’s like, well, that’s what you’ve just set yourself up for. So yeah, it’s about finding people that want to help. Because I don’t, I just say, oh my God, that sounds so exciting.

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:20)

There’s your mirror. Yes.

Well, I’m here talking with Mandi Gunsberger, who is a visionary entrepreneur and as you’ve already gathered, a workaholic. But coming up, we’re going to explore the power of being vulnerable. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. So you’ve been pretty candid in our discussion today. ⁓

about burnout and your last one as you said was only in the last 12 months ago. What did you do after selling Babyology?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:00)

⁓ that’s a big question. ⁓ yeah, after selling Babyology, I, well, I thought I’d planned, carefully planned at my exit, to be honest, but, and I’d negotiated exactly how many hours I would consult to the new owners as a maximum. ⁓ But the day the deal was done, they literally said, we’ve got it from here. So that was a massive blow to me, which was, you know, for the best in the long term. But I still remember walking out of the office that day.

feeling like Jerry Maguire.

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:32)

Yeah.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (30:33)

I packed a box, I had a tin of tuna and a notebook. That was pretty much all I had in my own company. ⁓ And you know, and I even had to ask them, like, I wanted to take my staff for lunch. And it just all felt so surreal. But we’d always been so big on setting up a Wiki that we’d had like this 400 page Wiki, which now everyone has with their business, but it was the Bible of the business that they were basically like, we’ve got it from here. We don’t need to anymore. So that was really ⁓ odd, I think. And that was very surreal after 11 years of building a business.

you

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:03)

Sum

up in two words what that feeling was. What are those two words?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (31:09)

those two words would just be ⁓ devastated, surprised. I just, took me a few weeks to be like, for one minute we’re signing papers and we’ve just done this big deal and now I’m no longer in the office. Cause I think also in media it was unheard of. Like I basically sold at that time thinking someone would buy us for two or three years and then we’d be able to live our lives. And all of a sudden we were leading our lives and didn’t know what to do with them. Cause my husband was in the business then as well.

and we were both all of a sudden like unemployed. ⁓ So that was okay. But then, so I think I was like, I’m going to help other founders. So, you know, I went and consulted with other founders, still very fresh out of my business. But honestly, ⁓ it just didn’t light me up at that point in my life. I found it really hard when I couldn’t make things happen. Yeah. And you’d go and you meet with someone who suggest all this stuff. And a month later, none of it had been done. So I was actually quite, I think I was

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:57)

and weren’t ready to see.

Well

that’s the thing about consulting. I think consulting is really hollow because you come up with all of the big picture stuff but it’s not your task to do the implementation. I find that for a doer, and I’ve seen that in the search world, I would never advise somebody with your demeanor to go into the consulting world because it would be unfulfilling.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (32:22)

That’s me.

Exactly. Well, I know that now, but I did not know that. So, I found it like really frustrating. So really what I did then was I threw myself into planning a massive bucket list adventure to Tuscany with my family. So we moved our three girls over to Tuscany for a year. Husband wasn’t very keen to go. He was literally like, you need a job. You need something to entertain you. But I’m like, we are going to Tuscany. So, yes, so we had the most incredible life changing year where we went to

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:37)

Not much.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:05)

over 20 different countries that year. My girls were five, 11 and 12. So really interesting time to pull them out of their worlds. know, lots of family time, no running around, no meetings, no agendas. You know, we did some consulting over there in the early hours, but really we just got to hang out and enjoy. And that was 2019. So we were really lucky. We didn’t even know COVID was around the corner.

So we did that whole year there, bought them back to go to school in that February when everyone was like, my God, you’re from Italy, you’ve got COVID.

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:36)

Four weeks before.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (33:39)

before

it all happened exactly. So it was kind of crazy. And then I think came the harder years, that whole post COVID-y time. ⁓ You know, for the first time in 20 years, I think I decided I’d go get a real job. And you know, I hadn’t worked for anyone else for years, but I just thought, you know, the stability, was that whole grass is greener on the other side, stability of the paycheck, someone else being in charge, me just, you know, rocking up and starting.

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:05)

in my book.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:06)

Yes, I got fired three times, not once, but three times.

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:11)

How

did that go? Not so well.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:14)

Not so well. just couldn’t stay in my box. I would go in and try and make too much change, you know, and other founders or other people in organizations that

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:23)

Were

you surprised to be fired, Merdie? ⁓

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:27)

I surprised the first and second time, the third time I kind of expected it and then you know realised as many of us are we’re just unemployable like no one wants someone who’s been doing their own

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:39)

And that’s a badge of honor, there’s nothing wrong with that, that is a badge of honor.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (34:42)

No, exactly.

But I just thought it’d be nice for a while, like to be, you know, someone pays you to sick leave and for like holiday leave. Well, just nice to be able to say to the kids, don’t worry, I’ve got this rather than we really don’t know what’s going to happen this time next week or next year. ⁓ But yeah, I think that silver lining of that period in that chapter reminded me to my core that I am a founder, that I do like to create things that I’m, you know, that

that’s really what I’m built for. So, you know, I use everything I’ve learned and I’ve, you know, gone again, cause I was like, I think I could do another one. ⁓ it’s not all bad, but it was like very much, you know, after six, I’d always get to that six month period and then they’d call me in and be like, yeah, this is not working out. So I’m like, okay, great. Yeah. Sometimes it was like, like I was completely unaware. And then other times I’m like,

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:18)

Thank you guys.

for over performing and not under performing. Who would have thought?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (35:41)

Yeah, but was overperforming but it was also just like I think this is what we should do and this is how we should do it and we’re not you know we’ve only got this percentage of this and I think other people don’t want to hear that they’re happy to go at their slower pace ⁓ and not have someone else tell them what to do so I know that.

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:59)

Good

to know. So you’ve said from the deepest resets, sometimes it doesn’t come from doing more, but it actually does come from doing less, a bit like your year in Tuscany. Why do you actually think that is such a hard message for overachievers, such as yourself, to actually absorb?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (36:22)

Yeah, and you died, sounds like you’re one of, you’re the same as me, so. But I think, to be honest, for… ⁓

For most of us high achievers, our entire identity has been built around doing things and ticking things off and getting things done. Like that’s the way I’ve lived since I was a teenager. So I’ve been rewarded my whole life for being productive, for being reliable, for being capable. You know, I’m the one that gets things done. I’m the one that organizes the family get togethers, the Christmas, you know, who’s bringing what. So when you suddenly stop or slow down and say, I don’t want to host that,

it does feel or it can feel like a failure. ⁓ So yes, I struggle with that. And I think, ⁓ yeah, I’m probably not the only person out there who writes something on my to-do list after I’ve done it, just so I have the glee in crossing it off and feeling like I’ve achieved it. No, see, we all do it. I’m like done that, putting that on my list, crossing it off, exactly.

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:16)

That was just me!

have a day list with colour coded tabs that vary in colour based on urgency, Mandi.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (37:32)

Yeah, no see we need help we need help and it’s not easy for people like us then to slow down to sit and read a book You know, I’ll sit and read a book But then I’ve got my laptop open and I’m over here going what emails have I got because that’s what makes me feel good is doing those things So for me it did take the complete burnouts, which I hope you know other people listening Do not have to go through to realize that you know it rest is not a weakness for me It always felt like a weakness I had to keep going but it actually is more wisdom

than anything. I said, looking at the younger generation and them taking time out, I wish that I would have done that earlier or given myself permission to pause or to breathe or to go to yoga or to read a book, you know. But it’s really uncomfortable for people like myself or yourself that spent decades proving their worth through how many things I can achieve on a list every day. So it is, it’s learning a new language and it’s, you know, a language of stillness and not having to be busy, like, you know, going through…

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:31)

Do

you think your kids are learning? Do you think you’re producing another generation of you? Or do you think they’re a little bit more informed?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (38:40)

I think to be honest, and they’re now 13, 18 and 19. No, I think they’ve seen me. They’ve been through my breakdowns. They’ve been through my last previous three months where from last, I don’t know, September till December, I really couldn’t get out of bed because I was so burnt out. You you rebuild yourself by doing one activity a day. Today, I’m going to have a shower. Today, like really severe burns.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:03)

You’ve

really done it, haven’t you?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:05)

I

just hit the bottom so quickly because I never know when to stop. So I think the girls have seen that and it actually has taught them a lesson.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:14)

we’re

not going to do that, we’re not going to

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (39:17)

You’re crazy.

Why do you like, you now when I’m like, I’ve got these 10 retreats, they’re all like, you’re a bloody idiot, mum. Like, you know that you’re gonna fall under all that weight. And I’m like, no, no, I’m gonna get help. I’m gonna hire people because I don’t wanna be there again. And I’m not good at saying no. So I’ve got this other person over here who is my no person, my kind of advisor. And then my kids and my family that say, do you really wanna go there again? So I do think the girls, even the little one at 13, you know, has seen me.

in and goes are you driving me to school? No, looks like you’re staying in bed again today. So you know I don’t think that’s necessarily a negative thing for them to learn at this age. I think that’s what life is you know you work too hard and you burn out and you fall in a heat.

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:56)

No, no, no. ⁓

Yeah, and I know in my own role models in life, I learned as much from the negative things as I did from the positive. And I mean, that should be our learning journey in life in general that we acquire it from all of those experiences. So tell me about your business. You’re now focusing on other people’s wellness, I suspect, in these retreats. The irony of that,

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (40:20)

Yeah.

Exactly. that’s the thing. What does it look like if the owner and founder of a wellness business who talks about giving yourself a rest has a nervous breakdown? It’s not a good look. so ⁓ yes, so I definitely try to practice what I preach and take that pause and take that breath. But yeah, absolutely. Nourish Travel was born out of my own ⁓ healing journey. ⁓ You know, I hit that wall after I sold Babyology and I spent so many years in that constant juggling the business, juggling the kids, juggling parents.

I mean, ⁓

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:24)

how they live their life.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:25)

And quite often, it’s incredible. So I got there and I was like, you know, 10, 12, 2, and I’d be late for everything because quite often that 10 o’clock meeting is them saying, let’s have a coffee. Let’s get to know each other.

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:38)

I

why in the rag trade we always used to know that fabric deliveries would always be late from Italy because they ran on their own time and that is what

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (41:48)

own schedule and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. They’re calmer, they’re happier, love life, they have their CS star. So you know I haven’t brought a lot of that back in but the one meeting a day thing really got me because that meeting is often a coffee then a walk then a nice lunch and you you spend three or four or five hours with one person and then you decide whether you’re going to work with them. So talk about partnerships and really understanding what someone wants. That’s an incredible thing.

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:15)

There’s a lot

to learn. there’s ⁓

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (42:17)

Whereas

we think having eight meetings a day is really the way to do it. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And you you get on a call and you’re like, right, where are we? Have we signed a contract? What are we doing? That’s not necessarily the way other people work around the world. So, ⁓ yeah, I think during that time, I started to do things that helped me feel more human and come out of that real adrenal fatigue I was in. was, you know, having honest conversations with many other women as well, all through COVID, you know, just about that they’re all carrying

all these things. So I think that’s how NARS travel really began was to be able to create a space to offer other women and men. We have a lot of men that come on our retreats as well. Just permission to slow down. So I do things that are one day. I do things that are three days. I do them locally. I do them internationally in Tuscany or Botswana or wherever, you know, hosts want to go. But it’s all about, even if it’s just the one day one, giving you that space to just look out for yourself. If you want to spend that day sitting

reading a book and not talking to anyone, do it. Like I don’t force anyone, it’s not a retreat where I’ll gong your room and say, you know, it’s time for the morning sunset walk. If someone, you know, I had a woman recently that came up, that came to one and she had a one, a four and a five year old.

had never been away from them and her husband gifted it to her. She just wanted to sleep and I was like, I’m just gonna come check on you and make sure that you’ve eaten, but otherwise you don’t need to be at anything. And like, so for everyone, it actually means something different. It’s some people it’s connecting with others, some people it’s doing nothing and some people it’s filling that schedule with, you know, one thing after the other. But you know, everyone is about to have that.

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:57)

Mind you, that’s harder on the organiser because you haven’t got a set agenda.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (44:03)

It is and what I do is I have a set agenda. Actually today I’ve just sent out for my next one. These are the five or six things we’re thinking of doing in the afternoon. We’re not doing all of them. Let us know which ones you would want to do the most and I will surprise you with which ones we do. But every single day of every moment I say nothing is compulsory. If you don’t want to come to anything you don’t have to. But women have and a lot of men as well have FOMOs. So the minute you actually put something on a schedule they

God this going to the beekeeping might be the best thing ever. What if I don’t go to that? then what if I don’t go to this? So I actually do allow space where nothing is on for those people that feel FOMO because they can’t help themselves come to everything and then at the end of it they say I really wish there was some downtime because I didn’t give myself any. So it is harder for me as an organizer but I think I’m getting to the point where I understand the way people’s rhythms work and giving them that two to four or two to five afternoon gap will allow them to

a nap or a swim or do yoga or read a book or whatever. But yeah if I schedule something super fun they’ll be there so we try and it’s like toddlers you have to give them their afternoon break.

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:14)

So Mandi, I’d love you to speak directly to the female entrepreneur or business person listening to the podcast today. If you were to pay forward all the amassed knowledge and wisdom that you’ve learned over time and could speak to the version of yourself who was running on empty, what would you tell her?

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (45:39)

The first thing I tell her is to stop trying to do it all.

It’s actually impossible and I don’t know anyone who can do it all and not have massive mental health issues by doing that. So I think what I’ve learnt is I don’t need to earn rest or love or success by doing more. ⁓ You know, you’ve got to believe, which, you know, I’ve just turned 50 and it’s taken me this many years, but you’ve got to believe that you are enough even when you pause and especially when you pause. So taking that pause doesn’t mean you’re not succeeding.

and that you’re failing, it means that you actually care about yourself, about the others around you, about your family, about your business, whatever you’re doing, because it will give you more to be able to do things. know, it’s that the world’s not going to fall apart if you take that breath. And asking for help is not a weakness, it’s actually a strength to say like, not coping, can’t do it all, don’t know how to stop doing it all, which is where I’m always at. Like I actually can’t stop myself, so I need other people to

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:42)

You

need an outsourced

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (46:45)

you

Exactly, and that’s fine. I think that’s fine. I know that about myself after all these years that I’m my own worst enemy and I’ll take on too much till I fall. So I think that would be the biggest thing. ⁓ You know, and that’s why I absolutely love doing what I do now because I get these women that come to me. I build a relationship with men and women for the six months prior to a retreat about what they want, what it looks like, why they’re coming. You know, it’s not just those three days and then I tailor it to them so that they get the rest

and that individual thing that they need. As I was saying, a retreat is not a one size fits all, get 25 people. I actually understand each person and why they’ve come and how I can make it special for them. So I love it. It’s like all the things I’ve ever done put into one now.

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:32)

how wonderful. Well, Mandi, thank you so much for sharing your entrepreneurial knowledge and also being so candid about being ⁓ so focused and so committed to pushing yourself to the brink. I think for many listeners, and I know interviewing you here today, it is a bit like somebody holding up the mirror and you’re going, okay.

Alrighty, I need to read the signs. need to listen. And as you said so rightly just before, the wheels are not going to fall off if you take an extra hour to go to yoga class or you do something. And next time, ring me and say, I need to reschedule because I’ve got too much on my plate. No, don’t worry.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:21)

going

to yoga tonight. I’m going to yoga at 6pm. But no thanks for having me. It’s been so lovely to have a chat with you. Yeah, love what you do and I really hope that people get something out of this. I did warn you I was very honest. So I have been very honest.

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:38)

That’s what we want. And Mandi, what’s the name of the business? I’m going to put it in the show notes, but give me the name of the business for the retreat. It’s nourishtravel.com. Nourishtravel.com. That’s it. Nourishtravel.com. Fantastic. And I know Mandi shows up on LinkedIn. And if you’re interested to learn more about what I do outside of the podcast, I too show up quite a bit on LinkedIn and I’ve got a power of reinvention newsletter.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (48:47)

www.nourishtravel.com

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:07)

that I post weekly there and like Mandi, I’m in midlife and we’re doing lots of things and we’re not stopping.

MANDI GUNSBERGER [Guest] (49:16)

Exactly,

it’s our time. children… So it’s our time. Thank very for having me, Di.

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:18)

Thanks Mandi. Until next time.