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Shame Caused by the Abuse of Power Must Be Redirected to the Perpetrators

by admin | Mar 2, 2026 | Female Author, Recovery

Shame caused by the abuse of power. A brave conversation which does include references to child sexual abuse.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett speaks with Dr Martina Zangger about childhood abuse, the psychology of shame, and the long path to healing.

Growing up in Basel, Switzerland, Martina’s childhood appeared privileged. The reality was abuse by powerful men within her own family – men who were respected pillars of society. Men whom should know better, be better, do better.

Disclosure did not happen until she was 27.

We also hear about Martina’s extraordinary experience having spent a decade in the infamous Rajneesh cult in the United States.

Now a psychotherapist and author of Not My Shame, Martina’s life work focuses on shifting shame back to where it belongs. – to the perpetrators.

➡️You’ll Hear :

Why shame attaches to survivors.

The common traits of perpetrators.

Why disclosure often takes decades.

The psychology of cult power dynamics.

How women move from silence to authorship.

Powerful quotes from Dr Martina Zangger:

“I believe that shame must change sides.”

“It took until I was 27 to disclose the abuse.”

“We can heal and we will have relief from the damage of abuse.”

👉 Read the full transcript of this conversation here

FULL TRANSCRIPT_DR MARTINA ZANGGER

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (00:02)

So I believe that my purpose in life is to hold rage in one hand and hope in the other. And that gives me the energy to do the work I do. I walk along victims’ survivors on their journeys of healing. And I need that rage and hope to continue. Also, I believe that shame must change sides.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:31)

if shame was never yours to carry? And what if shame belongs unequivocally with those who cause harm, not with those who survive it? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

Through revealing lived experience, it becomes a chorus of wisdom that makes sure women are seen not just for what we do, but for who we are. But before I begin, and as Hannah Asafiri has so rightly pointed out on this podcast in previous episodes, life doesn’t come with a trigger warning. However, this episode includes references to sexual abuse, so please

take care whilst listening. And let’s start with this point today as we kick off the conversation because it’s not designed to shock, provoke, or re-traumatise. It is designed to reframe, to shift shame back to where it belongs, to talk about survival without sanitizing it, and to name patterns, particularly narcissistic abuse.

So hopefully women can see them sooner, trust themselves more readily, and hopefully, where possible, leave earlier. And speaking out can be a key part of healing, which is exactly what today’s guest is doing. Martina Zangger, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (02:14)

Thank you so much for having me Di

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:17)

Martina, I’m going to jump around a little bit today and we had a bit of a exploratory discussion before Christmas, before we decided to record this episode. And there are some dark aspects of this conversation, but there’s also such a richness of lived experience that I’d love to understand today. But I think what we need to do is frame the very beginning and

⁓ and allow our listeners to understand some context. Are you comfortable with us doing that?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (02:54)

Yes very much so Di.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:56)

Okay, lovely. So I want to know about your childhood because from the outside, anybody looking at it, it would have looked safe, but the reality behind closed doors was a very, very different thing. Where did you grow up?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (03:14)

So I grew up in a small town in Switzerland called Basel, which is on the German and French border in the north. I grew up in a well-to-do household with a mother and father and two older brothers. Everything looked normal, yet underneath it all, were very, very… ⁓ It was a dangerous childhood.

and there were terrible things happening in both in our home and in the home that I was left in, my grandparents’ home, many times, probably every two, three weeks for two or three days. And that was my grandparents’ home was where I was sexually abused by my grandfather and by my uncle.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:05)

What do you most want people to understand about that time, Martina?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (04:11)

I think it’s really important to know that these were ordinary men. In fact, they were highly regarded citizens in our society, in the Swiss society. My grandfather was a high court judge and academic, and my uncle was a beloved politician and barrister. So they were well regarded men. They were men that were looked up to.

and yet behind closed doors they turned into something quite different.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:46)

and nobody would have had any idea and it would have been hard to actually be believed given their standing in the community.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (04:54)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this is why it took such a long time for me to disclose it. It took until I was 27 to disclose the abuse. And it happened, it happened between age two and age six. Yeah.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (05:14)

And you’ve decided to now put pen to paper and you’ve written your memoir touching on this. Why now, Martina?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (05:27)

I was really ready now because I had, in 2010 I had finished my PhD, which was on sexual assault and the legal system. I was teaching at Newcastle University and I was an academic there. And once I finished my PhD, I thought, I never wanna write an academic paper again. It’s so stifling.

we are straight jacketed as academics and we can’t say what we really want to say. And so after I finished my PhD, I became ready then to start creative writing, which is what I pursued then. I was still teaching, but I was no longer writing the PhD or journal articles that were academic yet.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:23)

What year did you land in Australia? Because you grew up in Switzerland. What year did you, did you immigrate?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (06:29)

came to Australia in 1975 when I was 14 years old.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:34)

Okay, and we’ll come back because there’s a couple of moves there about that. But what actually triggered the immigration to Australia?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (06:47)

So in my hometown Basel were all the big pharma factories. So there was Roche, Sandoz, Seabar, Guygee and all the people in that town worked for one of the big pharma companies. My dad worked for big pharma and he was ⁓ given a promotion to ⁓ lead the company in Australia and Asia.

and that is how we moved to Australia.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:21)

And was that break in moving countries the break in the abuse?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (07:27)

Yes, it was, absolutely. Because at that time, I was no longer abused by my grandfather who had passed away or by my uncle who got married, but by a 17 year old who abused me for a couple of years between ages 12 and 14. And one of the big benefits of moving to Australia was that then the abuse stopped.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:55)

Okay, so there was a physical break point that allowed that to take place.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:05)

Yes, I it was amazing. I remember when my dad told us that we’re moving to Australia, my first thought was, my god, this is so great because I’m going to be free of the sexual abuse. Because I just did not know how to disclose it or how to be assertive and say to this guy, I don’t like it. I don’t want to see you anymore. I had no words. I was very unassertive.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:31)

Had you declared it to your parents?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:34)

No, I didn’t declare it until I was 27.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:40)

and from the work that you have done post PhD and in your studies, I suspect that is not uncommon.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:51)

It’s absolutely the most common ⁓ time frame when victims disclose it takes on average 25 years. I’ve worked with women, I recently have worked with a beautiful ⁓ older lady who is 85 and she is seeing me for counselling because her father sexually abused her. She has never told anyone until she turned 85.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:20)

Go to heavens.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (09:21)

So it takes much courage and time before victim survivors can disclose.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:30)

So you referenced about this 85 year old woman that you’re coaching at the moment. I suspect her non-disclosure at an earlier age was purely a generational thing.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (09:46)

Not purely, because even now there are victims who will never disclose. Even now there are young children who will never ever disclose. And that is such a tragedy because if we don’t disclose, we can’t heal. Because we can’t heal in isolation. We heal when we tell someone and the other person believes us.

If we don’t tell, we can’t heal.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (10:17)

So are young children more or less inclined to disclose in current day by contrast to when you grew up?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (10:27)

Yes, they are much more likely to disclose. And when I worked in sexual assault services in rural and regional New South Wales, had at least ⁓ two thirds of our caseload was children and adolescents. So there are more and more kids and adolescents disclosing much earlier because there’s more education in schools about ⁓

being safe about consent and about sexual abuse and what ⁓ sexual abuse actually is. So children are now more likely to disclose, however many still don’t.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:12)

So is that about awareness, not confidence? That is, the children are more aware, they’re not necessarily more confident, they’re just more aware?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (11:22)

They’re more aware and they, if they have one safe person in their life, whether that’s mum or an auntie or a teacher or a best friend, they are more likely to disclose if they have a safe person in their lives. Yeah.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:42)

And you referenced off camera before about a particular Australian lawyer that you follow.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (11:49)

Yes, so I follow him on Instagram. He’s a Victorian lawyer and every day he posts the figures of child sexual abuse cases in court across Australia. And what he has found is that at least 25 % of all criminal cases that occur in courts across Australia are child sexual abuse cases.

which is just heartbreaking.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:20)

It absolutely is. And I suspect there are only the numbers that make it to court because somebody’s called it out. That doesn’t speak to the hidden abuse that is still ongoing or has taken place.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (12:35)

Yes, it’s

heartbreaking. But we’re doing much better education of kids, even little kids in preschools are getting information that they need so that they can disclose if anything ever happens to them.

which is wonderful.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:56)

It is, absolutely. Are we at risk that ⁓ an advanced thinking child might weaponize that or does that not happen?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:08)

I it happens. Yeah, I don’t think that happens. ⁓ Maybe one in a hundred. I know I’ve worked as a sexual assault ⁓ psychotherapist for 28 years. I would have maybe five in that time, five clients where I thought something doesn’t add up. But that’s out of hundreds.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:10)

can go on.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:35)

So yes it may happen maybe less than 1 % would fall asleep.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:41)

shitty lawyer using using it as their their lame defense to the perpetrator.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:47)

Yes.

Or someone that’s extremely unwell or someone who perhaps has a mother that is coaching them to say that. But I need to stress that is less than 1%. Disclosures. People often say, I mean, they’re called, ⁓ you’re a liar. that’s liars are only less than 1%. Yeah.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:02)

Also. Yeah, okay.

extraordinary lot. I think we’ve put that one to bed. So looking at shame and we talked about shame in the introduction and I’d like to go there in some detail if we could. It’s one of the most persistent burdens that a survivor carries even though logically it should belong to the abuser not to the victim. Why

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (14:18)

Yeah.

Yes.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:46)

does it attach itself so strongly to the person who’s been abused rather than the perpetrator?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (14:55)

Yeah, that’s such a tragedy because it keeps victim survivors silent. But it’s basically because the perpetrator uses power and control. The perpetrator always has more power. And therefore, they make the child or the young person or their wife or partner feel you are nothing, you are nobody, no one will believe you.

You are crazy and they themselves elevate themselves a bit like my grandfather and uncle. I am a pillar of society and no one will believe you. And that’s what I believed for 27 years. And it’s true, like some people did not believe me. Many people go, no, that can’t be true.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:48)

Were your perpetrators still alive when you called them out?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (15:54)

My uncle was, my grandfather had died.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:58)

How does that sit?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (16:00)

I will, I mean they have both passed away now and I feel freer for it and I feel happy that they can’t abuse any other kids. That’s the main thing I think. ⁓ I did confront my uncle, of course he denied it and perpetrators always deny it because the very thing that allows them to perpetrate abuse also allows them to lie.

and continue to try and use power over a victim survivor.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:33)

hence why it’s so difficult to shift that blame back to them from yourself. It really takes an intervention from somebody else to call it out and shift the blame.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (16:47)

Yeah, I remember when I was 20, I was probably 28 or 29, I decided I had this brainwave. I’d been in therapy for a couple of years and I said to my therapist, I’ve got a really great idea. I’m going to write to my uncle and confront him and then he’s going to say, sorry. And I believed that he would because I was still very naive and not as well informed as I am now. And she said,

let’s slow it down, I think we need to plan for this and think about it. But it was one of the times when I would not listen to her. I loved her, she was amazing, but I was like, no, I’m gonna do it. And I went home and I wrote that letter. We didn’t have email yet. I wrote the letter and I copied, made like, I think five copies for my parents, my aunt and my two brothers.

And I sent those to ⁓ those people and my uncle, I waited and waited for him to write back to me hoping he would say, I’m really sorry, I shouldn’t have done that. But of course he wrote back in his lawyerly ⁓ version of events saying, you have always been unstable. We know that you are crazy. You belong in a psychiatric hospital.

and I never touched a hair on your head. And if you continue to say this, I will prosecute you. And it sent me spiralling down for probably about six months. I was gutted. And I thought, you know, I went back to my therapist and I said, I should have listened to you. It was the worst idea for me to do that.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:41)

But did it then galvanise you after you hit rock bottom to go, I’m coming after you?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (18:49)

It did, absolutely. Yeah, I got strong again, but it took a while.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:51)

yet.

I can imagine. And there’s no guarantee that you can bounce back from that. That is an awful, awful thing to experience. I’m so sorry. Yeah.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:06)

Thank you. I’m fine now.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:10)

Your strength in talking about this suggests that you’ve got the upper hand in this story now. So, but if at any time this feels uncomfortable, you let me know. So, yeah. So women listening who are carrying trauma, Martina, without going into the clinical depths, because I appreciate you are now well,

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:25)

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:39)

educated in this. Could you talk us through what healing tends to involve?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:47)

Yeah, healing. ⁓ Healing involves, first of all, finding a safe person that will believe you and support you through the healing journey, who will walk alongside you, whether that’s a sister, a therapist, a mum, or an auntie, someone who is believing and supportive.

can be difficult for some people to find. Sometimes they have grown up in families where there is no safe person.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:25)

Is it a coincidence that you’ve called out only female profiles or is that how it always plays out in terms of finding that safe person? Could that-

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (20:37)

Yeah, of course it could. Of course it could. I should have said that. It may be a male therapist. It may be a brother. Yeah, absolutely. A best friend. Yeah.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:47)

Okay, yeah. I think it’s probably important that we share that that be the case. We’re not pointing the finger at all men. ⁓

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (21:03)

Many men are very, very supportive and for example my husband who I’ve been with for 35 years, he has been my greatest support and has always believed me and believed in me.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:19)

Yeah, there we go. That’s a powerful thing to point out.

So I’d like to talk in a little bit more depth about perpetrators and there’s growing awareness that many abusers share common traits, particularly narcissistic behaviors. And there’ll be a crossover in DV in this as well. When you look at the work that you’ve done, are there similarities

in how perpetrators operate.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (21:58)

there are definitely similarities and there, I’ve talked about this a little bit earlier, they enjoy using power and control. They do not have empathy for their victims and that allows them to continue to perpetrate abuse, whether that’s domestic violence or sexual abuse or homicide. know, women,

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:08)

They have.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (22:27)

I think last year 75 women were killed in Australia by partners or ex-partners. they have this in common that they, yes, they have not, they do not have empathy for their victims or for their victims loved ones who are also damaged of course.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:38)

Thanks.

And we’ve already seen those numbers start to rise for 2026 already. haven’t got our processes in place to keep everybody safe yet.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (22:54)

Absolutely.

No, no,

and we keep, you know, I’m on my soapbox a bit, we put, ⁓ for example, people who have addictions, who have stolen a car and ⁓ been speeding, we put them in jail for five years. We put perpetrators of sexual abuse in jail for 18 months, if that, for six months.

or we give them good behaviour bonds or we let them out early for good behaviour. So the consequences are not the same as they are for other crimes that are far less harmful to the population.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:46)

They’re

certainly not aligned to the gravity of what they have perpetrated against somebody else. It wouldn’t be uncommon for survivors to say, know, what drew them to me? Why me? Was this my fault? I suspect self-blame is a big part of what a victim faces.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (24:16)

Yes, self-blame is something I always challenge. And I know for me, I felt a lot of self-blame. I’m crazy, I’m unhinged. I was crazy because I was sexually abused. And once I dealt with it, I was not, I realized I’m not crazy. was just deeply, deeply traumatized. You know, there’s the victim blaming typical, what was she wearing? Why were you out?

Yes. I was wearing pink pyjamas. I was wearing nappies. People of any age can get sexually abused. They might be wearing ⁓ a hospital gown.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:06)

Do we victim blame? What is behind that?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (25:08)

Because

we don’t want to know the truth about what happens behind closed doors. don’t want to, know, men still have the power. Men, we’re still living under a patriarchy where men have the power and we don’t, we’re scared to give women power. You know, it’s the, even the, the old story of Eve was made from Adam’s rib. No.

Adam was made from Eve’s womb. But we want to believe that it’s men that are the creators of everything, that are the powerful and smart ones.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:52)

That being said, are women ever the abusers?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (25:58)

Yes, are. can ⁓ be.

Yes, a small percentage of abusers are women and I think it’s really important to say that and to be aware of that. I have worked with ⁓ hundreds of sexually abused children and adults and probably perhaps 3 % have been ⁓ girls and women that have abused those people. So 3 to 5 %

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:31)

than I thought. Yeah. It’s higher than I thought. Yeah. And is that also about power?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (26:37)

Yes, it’s about power and control, same thing. Yeah. And it’s just as damaging ⁓ as if it was a boy or man.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:47)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (26:50)

I know we’ve seen that in the news this week haven’t you? We have. female teacher.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:56)

Yes,

that’s what prompted my question. Yeah. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and I’m talking with Dr. Martina Zenger who is a victim of child sexual abuse. And coming up, we’re going to hear about how she ends up at the infamous Rajneesh cult in the US.

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Martina, many of my contemporaries will remember the Raj Nish movement and I do. was working in retail as a recent fashion graduate and I can remember this group of individuals.

constantly coming into my store, buying up everything that ever hit the racks that was in orange. And that was my first exposure. And it just seemed like this strange anomaly. But I remember the orange robes, I remember the Rolls Royces, and there was that infamous 60 minutes episode where one of the spokespeople for the cult said,

when challenged in an interview, they said tough titties and that was spoken by a woman. And that resonated and sticks in my mind from the time. And it was framed as a provocative counter-cultural, even a glamorous cult at that stage. I right in?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (28:23)

Yes

Yes, was a bit like a rock star. He was a very infamous, charismatic rock star guru.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:47)

Mmm.

There’s going to be an intersection here in what we’ve talked about previously about narcissistic behavior. I would suspect, yeah. So you encountered the Raj Nish at 19. Could you talk us through that and what you were looking for that led to that encounter?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (29:02)

Yes, very.

Yes.

Yes, so I had been very lost. I’d been to uni and dropped out in my first semester because I believed I was stupid, I can’t cope, I couldn’t handle adult life. I had no skills to handle adult life. So I was kind of drifting, working any job that I could get.

being a cleaner in a factory, working at Piermont fish markets, working as an assistant to a sports photographer, ⁓ working in a nursing home as an assistant in nursing, a sandwich hand. One job after another, ⁓ absolutely lost young woman between 17 and 19.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:04)

after another.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (30:13)

I then went and lived on a commune in the bush and I attended in Australia, yes. And at that commune, I attended a rebirthing workshop, which I wouldn’t really recommend people do. at that rebirthing workshop,

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:22)

Yeah.

even at saying that. mean we’ve seen more recent TV shows with Nine Perfect Strangers I think is the one that resonates in my mind now of how wrong that can go.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (30:50)

can go very wrong. I attended that workshop and I met a couple there who were Rajneeshis. They were wearing pink and red and purple and orange. They were wearing their necklaces, their beaded necklaces with the locket of his photo around their necks. And they gave me one of his books and that particular book was called My Way.

The Way of the White Clouds. And I read that book. They were going to, two days later they were travelling to America to live on his ashram, which was a 64,000 acre ashram in Oregon. Massive.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:38)

65,000 acre. I come from the country. I understand land math. That is enormous.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (31:43)

enormous, enormous. And so they looked so blissful. They were amazing. I just looked up to them, admired them, and I wanted what they had. I wanted that confidence, that smiling piece that detached happiness because I had none of that. So I devoured the book and

I devoured it in 24 hours and then decided I’m going to become a Rajneji too. And I moved back to Sydney to live near the ashram. They had an ashram in Darlinghurst. Yes, yeah, there was an ashram on the street.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:25)

is that right?

The

disenfranchised is such a successful strategy. There it is, laid bare.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (32:37)

Yes,

yes. I was so naive and I was such a needy young woman looking for, ⁓ looking to be saved by someone or something because I could not help myself.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:53)

Wow. And you then went to the US yourself?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (32:58)

I did, yes, so I had to save up madly because you had to have, it was an expensive cult to be part of.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:07)

You had to sustain this huge acreage.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (33:10)

Exactly. So we had to pay $8,000 to be there for a year. And that year we’re in 1981. So that was a lot of money in 1981. There was no way I could save that up doing making sandwiches.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:22)

That’s all.

You’ve been doing all of these odd jobs

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (33:33)

Yes, so I met another Rajneeshi. She lived across the road from me in Darlinghurst and she said, yes, I said to her, I need to make money because I want to go and live over there, which all of us wanted to do. That was the Holy Grail to live with him. And she said, ⁓ I’ve got a really great idea for you. I work in a brothel.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:41)

I they even existed.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:02)

and they’re always looking for people. It’s the easiest job in the world. Why don’t you try it? And I thought, yep, I’m going to do it. She said, you can make $500 a night. And that was in 1981.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:18)

The price of sex, it’s an expensive pursuit.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:22)

Yes. I went the next day for an interview and I was a real hippie. I didn’t wear makeup. had, I remember the ⁓ guy who interviewed me, he was a lovely gay guy and he said, just take off your clothes. Let me have a look at you. Cause I was wearing like baggy. ⁓ And I took my clothes off and I remember I was wearing like really sad, baggy cotton undies.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:43)

Big deal.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:52)

And he just shook his head. He goes, you’ve got to go and go next door and buy some really nice lingerie from, what was it called? ⁓ It’ll come to me. It was a really fancy, ⁓ the house of Maryvale. It was a few doors down in Pitt Street, yeah, in the city of Sydney.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:08)

Good heavens. Yes. It was next door to the house.

Angel Bar, House of Maryvale, right in the centre of town. Those who aren’t necessarily from Australia or Sydney-siders, the positioning of that is like centre of town anywhere in the world.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (35:22)

Right in the center. ⁓

center

of town exactly. And so he said go and get yourself some lingerie and this will be your uniform and you can start tomorrow.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:46)

Mind you, that is bloody expensive lingerie for somebody with no money who’s had odd jobs and is trying to look good for a stranger. mean… ⁓

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (35:57)

Absolutely, it killed my bank account. Yeah

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:01)

I have no doubt.

There’s so many things wrong with that story, Martina. It’s like… So many things wrong with it.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (36:08)

you

Yes, so I started working there the following day. I was scared but so desperate to get to America, to the Guru that that overrode everything. It overrode my sense of this is dangerous, I’m scared.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:35)

So how long did you work at the brothel before you made that money?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (36:41)

Yeah, so I worked there for 18 months. I could have saved it up much quicker, but I then went on spending sprees because having all that money was so, it was so infectious and addictive that I would, you know, I would see a purple satin maxi dress halter neck and go, I want that. And I would buy it at the house of Maryvale.

⁓ I was having expensive hairdos and I was all of that stuff because I was young and silly. I wanted those things. So that’s why it took much longer than it should have. I was sending 10 to 20 percent of my income to the ashram, ⁓ which was what we were, it was tithing. It was tithing a bit like in churches where you tithe 10 percent of your income.

So that also drained the funds significantly. And I did workshops, I did these stupid Rajneesh workshops that were supposed to heal us. And they were expensive too. So yes, took a bit longer than I…

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:02)

So what year did you land at the ashram?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (38:07)

think it was 1982. 1982, yes.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:10)

Yeah, right

What a very different contrast in what I was doing to the journey you were going through. But so many people be able to put a line in the sand and say, what did my life look like at that point in time? And it’s such a contrast. So you got there in 1982. How long before the penny dropped that this whole thing was a ruse?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (38:38)

Yeah, look, unfortunately it took eight whole years and it’s a bit like a bad marriage. I stayed in it hoping that things would get better. I stayed because I was committed to this path, this spiritual path that I believed would heal me. I believed that if I was on this path, I never had to

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:50)

in beta.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:07)

deal with my past with the sexual abuse, I would just be magically healed by the Guru and by the

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:14)

Did it ever come up in any of your workshops? it ever?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:17)

It did actually, but then I would just push it down. I would push it down very quickly. I did. You did. I did, yeah. And they, I mean, they would have too, but I would come up and I would just say, no, don’t talk about it.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:23)

You did all they did.

Yeah. Do you know why?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:39)

Shame. Again, was the shame. I’m dirty. I’m damaged goods. I’m a mess. I’m fucked up.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:47)

Yeah.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:49)

Yeah,

I wanted to be this spiritual shiny girl.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:54)

Yeah. So how did you, what was the tipping point to say this is not right and how did you extract yourself from that incredibly powerful hold that they had over you? Yeah.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (40:11)

So when I first got there I was so excited but very quickly I realized things are not ⁓ gonna be as I imagined them to be. So I was driven by a lovely Rajneesh man to my new home which was a little cute, the cutest little A-frame.

wooden A-frame and I just thought my god I’m going to be so happy here. But when I went into the A-frame I realised I had to share it with two other people. It was a tiny room, a tiny room with three mattresses on the floor with hardly any room to between the mattresses to walk and that was my home for 18 months and we had to work seven days a week

12 hours a day, there was no day of rest, no day for fun. ⁓ And I worked as a member of the pipe crew, was called the pipe crew, was, we were digging ditches in the desert, the Oregonian desert. And the ditches were like quite thin ditches and we laid irrigation pipes.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:29)

I was going to say you were doing the work to sustain the property.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (41:34)

Absolutely. We growing all the vegetables, all the fruit, all the trees. And I was shocked that I was so shocked. It was a hard job. Like digging with a pickaxe is really hard. A pickaxe and a shovel. So yes, it was a…

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:55)

was on to a good thing while it lasted. Bloody hell! Yeah!

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (42:01)

And the reason I finally left there, I just want to add one thing before that. He was at that time in silence, so he didn’t speak. He used to give sermons, but he had stopped speaking publicly because he said, I’ve said everything I need to say and I’m tired of talking, so I’m not talking. instead of talking.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:25)

Before

I’m gonna get myself into more litigious shit if I keep going

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (42:31)

Yes, absolutely. So at that time, we only saw him at what was called drive-by, which was he would drive past us in one of his 84 Rolls Royces every day after lunch. And we would line up on the side of the road. 2,000 followers would line up with our hands in namaste and wait for him to drive by and

look at us and wave at us and we would jump up and down, we would play musical instruments and be so excited to see him.

Yes.

Adoring. Thank God it ended. eventually he went back to India because he was deported from America. He went back to India to his original ashram and I went there three times in the time that I was part of the Rajneesh movement. The third time I went

DI GILLETT [HOST] (43:39)

Is that what happened?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (43:58)

there was a really tragic event which actually allowed me to leave him and break up with the cult. And that was that his girlfriend, he had had this girlfriend called Vivek, a beautiful, beautiful English woman who had been his girlfriend since she was 18. She was the person I most aspired to be.

I thought she was the luckiest woman alive because she lived with him. She was always in the Rolls Royce with him in the front seat, the passenger seat. And yet there was a deep unhappiness in her and she actually died by suicide while I was there in India. The poor, poor woman. And he ⁓ told us we were not allowed to go to the funeral. She had done the most…

the most ⁓ gutless thing anyone could do and we would not speak about her again. is how he framed it. And that woke me up. just went, I am so angry that no one has compassion for this poor, beautiful woman, Vivek.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:14)

Was

there age power play in this? How old was

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:16)

Oh god yeah.

She would have been, she would have been 25 and he would have been 50.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:25)

So it’s exactly where we started the conversation.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:29)

Yes, exactly.

And it was that day that I went into town, into Pune, and I bought my ticket home and I left the cult and I changed my name back to Martina. Yeah, from India. And that was it. I never looked back.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:49)

How will?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:49)

Yeah,

that was, I was 27. So I was a Rajneji from 19 to 27. It’s a long time.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:00)

No wonder you had to write a memoir, Martina, because there is a lot of lived experience to put down, but it’s the same thread. It’s the same repetitive thread just in different settings. mean, it’s movie worthy. It’s extraordinary.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (46:24)

Yes, yeah if anyone wants to know more about the cult there’s a really good Netflix series called Wild Wild Country and it’s really worth watching because it’s about the ashram in Oregon the $64,000, $64,000 acre ashram. yeah it’s worth watching.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:43)

Yeah. Yeah, right.

Say that title again for us.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (46:50)

Wild, wild country. W-I-L-D, yeah, wild, wild country. It’s actually not completely, ⁓ it’s still the people that they interview ⁓ are all people that still love the Guru. So it’s skewed towards.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:13)

So is it documentary?

⁓

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (47:16)

It’s a documentary which has some propaganda but you can also see through it. Yeah, but the Rajneeshis, their interview are still Rajneeshis. I wish they had also interviewed… No, he passed away. He passed away. They don’t know. They said, I think they said heart failure but some people say he also… ⁓

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:22)

Okay.

He’s no longer with us.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (47:46)

⁓ He chose euthanasia and that his doctor gave him a lethal injection. But I don’t know.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:57)

So without going into detail, there’s often solidarity in ⁓ women in marginalised or high risk environments, which is what I suspect you found in the sex work. Absolutely. again, in the cult. Very much so.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (48:18)

Yes,

it’s a absolutely.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (48:21)

call it a cult. What

from your personal and professional experience matters so much about this camaraderie that you find in these most extraordinary settings?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (48:36)

Yes, I mean the women at the brothel, were beautiful to me. They were just lovely because I was younger than them and they were much more experienced at their work than I was. They took me under their wing and I loved being around them. They were very funny. They they looked out for each other. They looked out for me. I looked out for them as well.

And I’ve always loved women ⁓ and felt very comfortable with women. I just felt very at home with them and cared for. If I had a bad client, they would always debrief with me afterwards and care for me. ⁓ So that was really important. At the ashram, I had…

really good, I made really good friends on the pipe crew. We were a gang of people who had a lot of fun together.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (49:42)

just, I can’t get my head around it on a gang on the pipe crew. It’s like chain gang stuff. It’s bizarre. Just bizarre. all jokes aside, this ⁓ choice of women to support women in these extraordinary settings is incredibly powerful. And something that

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (49:52)

Yes.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (50:11)

you know, I harp on about in Power of Women. It’s not always found and you found it in extraordinary settings to be plentiful.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (50:24)

Yes, absolutely. And I already had found it as a girl, as a child. found, because my own mother had a mental illness and was very suicidal and absent because she had been abused by the same two men, her father and her brother. So she was not a good mum. She was very troubled. This was generational.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (50:27)

Yeah.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (50:52)

⁓

I found very early on, I found girlfriends whose mothers took me under their wing. I would visit them, I would hang out there, I would stay weekends. I would be away from home as much as possible and those mothers and girls really loved me. I think I was a lovable kid. Thank God I was a lovable kid. And so I did always have loving women who

I think they sensed that things were not okay at home. And even though I hid it and would never talk about it, and they cared for me, which is very fortunate. And funny enough, I’ve done the same thing with my daughter. I’ve cared for her girlfriends ⁓ who also some of them have had difficult childhoods.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (51:47)

Yeah, there’s the positive aspect of that you have traveled. So at what point do you see women moving from surviving their past to authoring their future? Is there a profound point on the continuum that that happens?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (51:51)

Absolutely.

think it doesn’t happen straight away which is really hard because you want that healing so desperately once you embark on the path of healing, once you start therapy or once you disclose it to your best friend and yet it takes, I think it takes at least a couple of years to find some strength, some power and strength to ⁓ believe in yourself, to let go of the shame.

and to have a voice. And that is a long time to wait. I remember I used to say to my beautiful therapist, you know, how much longer until I feel better? And it took, I think it took a couple of years. Yes, yes. And I was very committed. And I think, you know, some other people, some other women can’t be committed because they don’t have the money to go to therapy. Or they have

DI GILLETT [HOST] (52:57)

It’s a string.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:11)

four kids at home and they don’t have the time to go to therapy or they don’t have a car to get there.

Yeah, so it takes time and patience. And money, absolutely.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (53:23)

and money.

Yeah. Wow! Is your book on the shelves already?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:32)

Yes it is, it came out in September last year and it’s on the shelves and it’s also available on Amazon and on Kindle.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (53:41)

Yeah, what a read. What a read. Could you just, the title is…

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:46)

Not My Shame. Not My Shame. that is, I chose that title because at the time Giselle Pellicot in France was talking about, with her court case, she was talking about shame must change sides. And that’s why I chose that title, yes.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (54:11)

What a profound point in time to bring it up, because that was one of the most terrific cases anywhere in the world that any of us could ever have heard about.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (54:23)

and yet what a strong woman she is.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (54:25)

Absolutely. And I’m assuming listeners know the story we’re talking about, but it was the woman who was repeatedly abused by strangers ⁓ for years as a result of her husband drugging her and running it as an enterprise. just one of the darkest examples of a perpetrator one could ever even imagine. So yeah.

I’m going to close with a couple of rapid fire questions today, Martina.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:01)

Okay.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:02)

what something survivors are really told but should be.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:09)

The most important thing is for a survivor to hear is, I believe you. And also, secondly, it’s not your fault. It’s the perpetrator’s fault. They’re very powerful statements.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:24)

Very powerful, they give me goosebumps listening to you say them just now. What’s one assumption about trauma that does more harm than good?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:36)

that you can never heal, that you’ll always be damaged. And we can heal and we will have relief from the damage of abuse.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:49)

Yep, great affirmation. If a woman listening right now is still blaming herself, what do want her to hear?

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:58)

I want her to hear that it is not her fault and that there is help available and maybe we can put some things in the show notes. There is help available, there is actually free help available for those who don’t, who can’t afford therapy ⁓ and they don’t have to walk this path alone.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (56:23)

Absolutely. Martina, thank you so much for what is just the most extraordinary conversation today about your own personal experience and the incredibly informative information that you’ve shared for somebody who has been through this horrendous trauma of sexual abuse and in particular child sexual abuse and how to…

⁓ approach that as part of a journey of healing and shifting that shame from oneself to perpetrator. And to your point, absolutely, I will ask you to share with me some links that we can put into the show notes for our listeners. ⁓ And that then becomes something powerful that they can also pass on and share the episode with somebody that

they believe really does need to listen to a conversation such as the one that we’ve had today. as unfortunate as it is, there are plenty of victims out there who are yet to face into the healing journey, I suspect. And hopefully this goes some way to…

identifying a roadmap for somebody to pursue to start that path.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (57:54)

Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, and for the opportunity to have a chat with you.

DI GILLETT [HOST] (58:02)

my absolute privilege. Thank you, Martina. Until next time.

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (58:06)

Thank you, Di.

Chapters:

00:00 Rage and Hope: The Duality of Healing

01:53 Childhood Trauma: A Hidden Reality

05:57 The Journey to Disclosure

09:46 The Importance of Safe Spaces

14:02 Shame: The Silent Burden

18:13 Confronting the Past

21:58 Understanding Perpetrators

25:58 The Role of Women in Healing

30:04 The Rajneesh Cult Experience

38:02 Breaking Free from the Cult

46:00 Empowerment Through Storytelling

Connect with Di:

Find Martina at:

Website https://martinazangger.com.au/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-martina-zangger-9b29874a/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/martinazangger/

Resources [Australia]:

Free Services for victim-survivors:

https://victimsservices.justice.nsw.gov.au (22 free counselling sessions for victims of crime NSW)

1800RESPECT: 1800 737 732 (free DV and SA counselling 24 hours)

https://www.thesurvivorhub.org.au (free monthly peer support group)

https://bravehearts.org.au (Bravehearts: Free counselling for victims of CSA)

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

Disclaimer: https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

40 Years in Modelling… and Fully Employed at 57

by admin | Feb 23, 2026 | Ageism, Female Empowerment

In this episode, Kate Bell reflects on a 40-year modelling career that defies conventional timelines. Modelling is one of the toughest industries in the world and at 57, Kate is still fully employed.

She speaks openly about ageism, rejection, women’s self-perception, and the practices that sustained her – from yoga and writing to self-discipline and creative expression.

Rather than positioning reinvention as a single turning point, Kate describes a career built on constant adaptation and responsibility for how she responds to life and work.

➡️You’ll Hear :

How rejection shaped Kate’s professional detachment and resilience

Why mature women are still underrepresented in fashion

The role of creativity as a lifelong stabiliser

What staying relevant actually requires

Kate said:

“Modelling is a job where you’re constantly and consistently wrong and rejected.”

“I’m healthier, happier, and more alive at 57 than I’ve ever been.”

“For real equality to happen, women must work together. Together we rise.”

Chapters:

00:00 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Connection

02:55 The Glamorous Yet Tough World of Modelling

05:56 Facing Industry Realities: Bullying and Racism

09:06 Reinvention and Self-Kindness

11:55 The Power of Intuition and Personal Growth

15:07 Creativity as an Anchor in Life

21:08 Resilience in the Face of Rejection

26:25 The Nature of Rejection in Modelling

35:05 Women’s Self-Perception and Aging

45:07 Empowerment and Support Among Women

Connect with Di:

Substack https://katebell.substack.com/?r=vl8lb&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=profile&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGn64pbkZE-s9uwUSetIa6JvlFQgH1zXycTZNUvbFT0wq_Y8VirwV4vpmKIZAU_aem_vjgIJmSrXCBU5tGgeYRE_g

Find Kate Bell at:

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/i_am_katebell/

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

Disclaimer: https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

It’s Time to Stop Backing Your Doubts and Start Backing Yourself

by admin | Feb 16, 2026 | Exemplar, Female Empowerment, Female mentoring

What happens when women stop backing their doubts and start backing themselves?

In this unfiltered conversation, Margie Warrell, globally recognised expert in leadership and human behaviour, and bestselling author, joins Di Gillett on the Power Of Women Podcast to explore why self-doubt, not ability, is the biggest limiter of women’s leadership, visibility and agency.

Margie shares her personal journey through adversity, loss, and reinvention, revealing how courage is built through action – not confidence – and why waiting to feel ready is often the very thing holding women back.

This episode is for women who know they’re capable of more, but feel caught between who they are now and who they’re meant to become.

➡️In this episode, we explore:

➜ Why the chances we don’t take cost us more than the ones we do

➜ How self-doubt limits women’s visibility, leadership and financial independence.

➜ Why courage is not a feeling, but a decision

➜ Why choosing your response is the ultimate act of power.

Key takeaways::

➺ It’s the chances we don’t take that we regret the most.

➺ Backing ourselves is crucial to overcoming self-doubt.

➺ Financial independence is foundational to female agency.

➺ Adversity doesn’t define you – how you respond does.

➺ We are not our struggles or doubts; we are more than that.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (00:11.784)

It’s the chances that we don’t take that we regret the most. And too often we back our doubts versus backing ourselves. And when we let our doubts call the shots and direct our action, they sell us short and they shortchange the future and they actually sell everyone else short of who it is we could be.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself, what would you do if you went all in and backed yourself? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. Today’s guest, Margie Worrell is somebody who embodies that spirit and fully commits. She’s a bestselling author.

global keynote speaker and leadership coach whose work has inspired countless women to lead with courage and conviction. In this conversation, we’ll explore what limits brave thinking and decisive action, how to turn self-doubt into growth, and why the bravest thing any woman can do is back herself. Margie Worrell, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

Thank you for having me die.

Margie, I can detect an international accent. I know you’re sitting in New York today and I’m here in Oz, but where exactly did you grow up?

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (01:46.338)

I grew up, Victorians may stand a chance of knowing where I grew up, most people who don’t come from Victoria have never heard of it, but I grew up in a little tiny place called Nungurna that’s midway between Lake Sentrance and Bairnsdale in East Gippsland, Victoria. We didn’t even have a shop.

There was a school, I was the only kid in my grade, and I grew up on a dairy farm. My dad obviously milked cows, my whole childhood. So it was a very rural Aussie country kid upbringing.

We have that in common, Margie. I too grew up in country Victoria, but we had a couple of shops close by. So yours was slightly more rural than mine. And I always feel that people who have had that rural upbringing, it absolutely plays into who they become later in life because there’s a certain resilience that comes from that.

Does that play into how your character has formed, do you think, over time?

There’s no doubt, Di, I think you learn to be a little scrappy. You learn to pick yourself up a lot. I also feel that it’s such a humble upbringing in many ways. There’s nothing about it that you could use if you were trying to be pretentious about

DI GILLETT: Host (03:04.831)

you

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (03:21.698)

you know, what you did or where you went to school or and so it’s a wonderfully grounding place to start life from. And I think it shaped me in many, many ways. I think Australian culture shaped me in the sense that it was a bigger insult to be called up yourself or stuck up than it was to be called a bitch or mean.

You know, it’s like, maybe I don’t call me stuck up don’t say I’m up myself and so I think the flip side of that is that we can be too humble and we can talk ourselves down too much but but I I feel like it’s all I always look back at my childhood with with a lot of gratitude for the ways it shaped me and I’m you know, I

It’s probably shaped me in a few ways I’ve had to overcome too. You know, so much self-doubt and who am I to do that? And maybe a lack of self-belief throughout my adult journey, which is sort of why I write and speak and have such a deep passion around courage because I feel like I’ve had to practice it a lot.

And I bet it also came into teaching you to get up early because nobody gets up earlier than dairy farmers.

Well, I will say my dad probably got up earlier than the rest of us. It’s not like, guess people picture me and all my siblings, I’m a big sister of seven, picture us down there at the crack of dawn milking the cows. The fact is, dad did a lot of the hardest work in the early mornings and we pitched in around it. the truth is I am an early riser, so who knows, maybe that’s what shaped it.

DI GILLETT: Host (05:06.67)

I must admit, Margie, we had an infestation of snails in our backyard the other week and I pulled on gumboots and went out and squashed them and my husband grew up in the city and he was horrified and I said in the country there was nothing more fun than going out and stomping on snails.

Stuff like that or throwing cow muck at each other or I mean yeah there’s a lot of things that I did for fun that when I tell people they’re slightly aghast so I have to choose my own.

Yeah, no, I get that. It’s the same in my world. So what took you to the US and how long have you been there?

Well, this is my second time living here. The first time I moved here, I mean, I backpacked around America when I was 21. I saved up my travel as checks as a lot of Aussies do. And I should mention my mum was born in America, but she moved to Australia when she was seven. And so growing up though, I always was like, my mum’s American. She didn’t have an American accent. She was not, she didn’t act

remotely like what we think of as American. She was super introverted and quiet and private and understated. But I always had this little kind of probably emotional connection to the United States simply from mom always cherished her US roots and actually never became an Australian citizen always until she died two years ago always kept her US citizenship even though she didn’t vote or anything. She just

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (06:42.766)

It meant a lot to her. So I’ll just say that because some people kind of like helps explain a little bit maybe why I was drawn here. But when I, after I met my husband, I was like, I really want to go and live globally. And he is from Melbourne and he is an engineer and work for a big company. And an opportunity came up in 2001. had, actually I was pregnant with our third child to move to their corporate head office.

And honestly, it just seemed like, yeah, let’s do it. What an exciting opportunity for him professionally, but for us as a family. And so we moved to the US. As it turned out, we packed up our house literally the morning that everyone in Australia was waking up to the news of 9-11. And I had a five-week-old baby and a two-year-old and a three-year-old.

We could all remember where we were at that time. Yeah.

We can. I mean, it was a really challenging time. I mean, one having three tiny children, but then moving somewhere where there was zero support and no friends and then add on the whole, you know, 9-11 fear factor and everything. So I lived here actually for 11 years and really came, I mean, my professional career in terms of coaching and speaking and writing, I started that in the United States.

You know, they’re kind of in a deep back studying before I moved to the US, but I launched it living in Dallas, Texas with four kids, five and under. And then moved up to Northern Virginia.

DI GILLETT: Host (08:14.926)

I think, yep.

think it’s just like, you know, you’ve got four kids, five and under, but I can start a coaching business. And then had 11 years and then moved back to Melbourne for five years, Di, which was in 2012 through 2017. And I’m really grateful for that. It came out of the blue. Again, Husband’s Company said, want to move you back to Australia. It wasn’t, we had zero inkling that that was going to happen.

But it was a really beautiful opportunity for my kids to know what it is to be really live in Australia. And they went to primary and high school in Australia. And I think it really solidified their identity as Aussies. They’re very global and all of them.

Do they identify as Aussies or do they identify as global citizens?

The oldest three, my youngest was born in US, but the oldest three, and they all have Aussie accents. They got back, I remember their first day at school, my oldest, Lachlan, was nearly 14 coming home, and he goes, I told people I’m Australian, and they’re saying, they say I’m not, they’re saying I’m an American, because I sound American, and he had a real American accent, and I won’t, I won’t, I won’t do that to you. And so insulted that people didn’t think he was Australian.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (09:33.966)

I just know the kids went on up like we are going to sound Australian as fast as we can and they have never given up that Australian like they were there you know several years up to five and a half of my younger two and I think that for them was just to know this is how we’re Australian we will sound Australian.

How wonderful. So tell me what was it experience or your upbringing that drew you into this interest in human behaviour, Margie?

There’s probably a little bit of both, but it was definitely some difficult experiences in my 20s. I actually moved to Papua New Guinea in my 20s. had three years there and then back to Melbourne, then to Adelaide, then to Dallas, then to DC, then back to Melbourne, then to Singapore, and then back to the US. So that’s the trajectory of all the moves. But during my time in Papua New Guinea, I had had an eating disorder. I’d had bulimia through my teens die.

Ironically, I heard about, believe me, a reading of Dolly magazine when I was 13. And I thought…

Doesn’t that ring a chord? Hmm.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (10:42.35)

a great way for me to be skinny. I just want to be skinny and I wasn’t skinny. I mean we say that now and we listen to that and go, but that’s me at 12, me at 13 was desperate to be skinny, like centrin to say.

And so many of our listeners would relate to that. I totally relate to that.

had tried taking laxatives and all that anyway cut a long story short I ended up for 13 years struggling with bulimia

In secret, Margie, or was it known to others?

Yeah, really, yeah, really in secret. And my parents knew, but they didn’t know what to do and they never said anything except making the odd off the cuff remark about don’t waste food. Like, don’t waste good food. And I just think they didn’t have the tools, they didn’t know how to deal with why would someone eat and throw up, you know. And of course, I didn’t know what to, you know, it’s not something I shared with anyone.

DI GILLETT: Host (11:46.542)

The system didn’t have many tools to help us with it either.

No, there was still and there was so much shame. I remember just thinking if people knew and they wouldn’t like me and and I was pretty high functioning. I mean, I always did well at school. I was very social. I got great grades. I just see school.

How low is it in, because it needs determination to do that?

Yeah, I so, but I carried that with me. I shared it with my friend Anna, Anna Quinn. Hello Anna, if she ever listens to this in Brisbane. And I shared it with her at university. And I didn’t want to tell anyone and I told her and she said, and it was just the power of friendship. She said, you know, maybe you should go and talk to someone. Maybe you should go see a psychologist. And I was like, but only crazy.

I had this thing that only people who are really not functional see psychologists. But it was like, that maybe that would be a good idea. And that was the start of the journey. But it was while living in Papua New Guinea, five years on, I moved there at 2026, that it flared up again and I did a 12-step program. And I made friends with a few fabulous women.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (13:08.258)

who was struggling with their own things. One of them cut herself. you know, people were having, infidelity was rampant. And I found myself the confident of a lot of people, not a lot, but a handful. And I realized I really wanted to, I discovered Scott Peck and Wayne Dyer, and I was like, I wanna be someone that helps people deal with the internal struggles.

and I met so many smart, amazing people that were hurting themselves. And that was really the beginning of the journey. And then while I was there, I ended up in an armed robbery die and I lost a baby, first child, only 20 weeks pregnant, 10 days later. And that was pretty traumatic. And just as I picked myself up from that, I decided, I just want to go back and study psychology. I had been working in marketing.

and that was that took me off on the path that I have been on ever since and that was gee that was 1997. Where are we so you know was that 28 years ago? Yeah something like that and I had no idea where it would go by the way. had no idea. I’d never heard of coaching. I didn’t even know that people got paid to speak. Writing a book never crossed my mind.

It was more, at that moment I would have said, I wanna be a psychologist.

Wow, that’s a huge amount of experience leading into that, Margie. Thank you for sharing. how did that then become, because bold moves and courage has become your thing, how did you even tap into that to then talk about that based on such challenging life experiences that you went through?

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (15:04.878)

When we share the things that we have shame around, it removes and helps dissolve the shame. So that was one thing. And I felt almost a sense of obligation. I don’t, my identity isn’t that I had an eating disorder and I don’t always share it because I don’t always feel it’s relevant. But when I do feel it can be relevant or helpful, happily share it. don’t know if the word happily, but I’m really comfortable and I feel really, I really feel a strong sense of

conviction and an end obligation around sharing that story. But I should also mention, you know, I have a brother who had a brutal mental illness for a decade, schizophrenia before he took his life. And I have another brother who had a terrible accident two years before Peter took his life and became paraplegic, had developed, it was spinal injury, has paraplegia still ever since then.

and my mom’s really struggled with depression, there was just numerous pretty brutal experiences. I had ended up with five miscarriages, you know, and I think I believe that each of us is born with a unique set of talents and I feel a strong sense of purpose around

the work that I do, but so much of that comes from the hardest experiences that I’ve had. And yes, have I been bold and had a sense of adventure? Sure, yeah, I have. But it’s not been in the absence of a lot of doubt and a lot of misgivings and a voice in my head Di that says, who do you think you are? And just wait, someone’s going to realize you don’t know as much as you think.

you’re not that brave, you’re not that, you know, like that voice is there. And, you know, that comes, obviously comes from the childhood days when big sister, I couldn’t help my mom enough when there was a lot of pressure on me, et cetera, to always be doing things and never feeling like I was measuring up. So just, I think all of those experiences have shaped me, but also that’s where I probably have drawn my own wisdom over the years too.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (17:20.142)

Who we are is not our doubts, who we are is not our struggles and our setbacks and our hardships and our heartaches. Who we are is something infinitely more than that. And so often our fear and those stories that we’ve been telling ourselves for a long, time create this barrier that keeps us from really connecting with what I think is the sacredness of who we are.

I see ourselves as not so much physical beings having this occasional spiritual experience, but really spiritual beings who have these earth suits and have this physical experience. a quote that I actually put in my last book, The Courage Gap, is that God had a dream and he wrapped your body around it. I just, that sort of encapsulates a little bit of how I

I view life for myself, do you view all of us as here on this planet for so long and what does it mean for us to live lives that are just really true and honoring who we are and the journey we’ve had.

I did an episode last year, Margie, with Carly Lyon, and she talks about three universal thoughts, and one of them is exactly what you said. Who do you think you are? I mean, your life experiences and the adversity from a personal level could have absolutely broken you and would have broken many.

decisions did you take and can you share how you actually didn’t allow that to become the defining moment that broke you and kept going? Because you had multiple encounters that could have been a tipping point.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (19:13.08)

Yeah, you know, I can recall I’m a journal die. I’ve been a journal all my life. Well, since I remember finding a little diary, you know, when I was 11 on back then it was like Sharon’s my best friend and I like Ricky and I hate Ricky and you know, like that’s where I started as an 11 year old. I’ve often, I’ve often just written to process what I think and,

And I’m mindful as I’m speaking to you now, you probably have largely a straight in audience and I’m very mindful of the cynicism around religion sometimes or certainly, you know, spirituality. But I have a really strong faith system and that has been

a huge source of resilience for me and courage. And I recall though after I was in this arm droppery, it was pretty violent. And then 10 days later, I got told your baby has died. And I was 27. No, just turned 27. And I remember journaling a lot because there was a lot of like, what the fuck, God.

Like seriously, how could this happen to me? can’t believe, I mean, I knew intellectually women have miscarriages. knew, you know, that bad things can happen to good people. I knew that, but I just somehow didn’t think it would happen to me in really close succession, like super tight timeframe there. So I hadn’t even processed the first event and the second happened.

And so I journaled a lot and I wrangled and I was like, you know, fighting with reality, fighting with whatever I call it, God, right? I’m just going to say that. And some people might go, I don’t believe in God. I’m like, okay, you’re just fighting with life. Like what has happened here? And, and I just remember journaling a lot, trying to make sense of it all. But I arrived at probably six weeks, two months. And after those events,

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (21:27.03)

And there came a moment and a lot of people felt really sorry for me. know, word had spread, know, she was in his arm drummer and then she lost her baby and people were feeling really sorry, a lot of sympathy, which is nice. But I could feel people treating me like a victim and I was a victim. There was no doubt I had been a victim of, you know, violence. I had been a victim of miscarriage as are many, many, many women. Mother nature, whatever you call it.

But I remember having this moment of clarity. I do not want to identify as a victim.

absolutely want to reclaim all the power that I’ve given away to woe is me and my pity party and this isn’t fair and how can this happen to me and it didn’t happen to the five other women I know that are pregnant right now who are now getting bigger and bigger and and and so I just remember this moment of decision. I will not give my circumstances the power to define me. I will define myself and it was a real it was a real moment of clarity.

I get to choose who I am and I get to create my story and it will not be a story of poor me. And it was that little name that was on that moment of like, what is it that I will do this year that I’m not? And I went back and I signed up Deakin University back then with distance education and I signed up and did this course in psychology and that was the start of the path I’m on. But I think there’s been many moments since then where

And in more recent years too, when things aren’t the way I’d like them to be. And yeah, I’m as vulnerable as everyone to going down the, it’s not fair. And it shouldn’t be this way. I’ll never make it. know, all the negative tales we can tell ourselves and those shameful stories we can tell ourselves. And I’ve just become a little more masterful. I’m not saying I’m a master, but a little better.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (23:29.12)

at catching myself when I’m in the midst of telling this story that I know is not empowering me, that is sucking my HNC, that is keeping me from backing myself.

And so hence the courage piece that I talk about and write about, which isn’t an absence of doubt and fear and everything else, it’s the decision that something else is more important. It’s not an emotion, I disagree with Brené Brown on this one, you the emotion of courage. Like if we’re waiting to feel brave or courageous, you could be waiting until you’re 100. No, it is a decision, it’s a practice, it’s a discipline.

I’m gonna do this thing even though I’m honestly, my stomach is feeling sick and I’m terrified that people are gonna discover I’m really not that good. But I’m gonna do it anyway because I don’t wanna look back one day and go what if.

Can you draw a thread, and I know in my own life through adversity, I draw a thread coming all the way back to growing up in a country setting because there is nothing more challenging than your survival being dependent on the weather. You can’t control it. So you’ve got to be incredibly damn resilient to bounce back.

When things outside of your control keep getting thrown at you and making life difficult, you either make a decision to fold up and walk away or you make a decision to keep going. Do you see a thread between childhood and those decisions that you’ve made to go, I’m going to take control of this?

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (25:15.682)

realized that I had experienced some trauma when I was nine until about six or seven years ago. And I’ll share the story because it was interesting when I connected the dots. When I was nine, it was a terrible drought and my dad had to sell his entire herd, couldn’t afford to feed them, except a few cows that he kept for our family and for bartering with local fishermen and et cetera.

And I remember as the cattle truck went down the lane way, just looking at dad and I realized like, how are we going to get money? And none of my other siblings, I think they were too young. They just, I was just so clear for me, it was like, this is the source of income going down the lane way. And I remember my dad saying, I don’t know, but we just have to trust the good Lord will provide. And I remember thinking, how does the good Lord provide? Like, does he, does he just put money on the back of a rander? Do we win tax lotto? Like,

And for the next four years, my dad did odd jobs with his tractor. mean, we, I mean, we never went to restaurant my whole childhood, but we always had op shop clothes. Like there wasn’t, there was never any money. I mean, not that, but we never, of course, went hungry. And so I guess the good Lord did provide, but it was as an adult, a few years ago when something happened and the certainty I had about future financial security suddenly was blown up and I had an anxiety attack.

And I knew it was irrational. knew intellectually it was irrational. I wasn’t going to end up on the streets in destitute. But it was like that truck was going down the laneway again. And suddenly the nine-year-old in me was like, I’m terrified that I’m not going to be, that I don’t have enough security. And of course, as kids, we look to our parents to make us feel secure.

and I had to just look in and go, you know what, Maggie, know, no one’s coming to save you, but seek within yourself the security you look for elsewhere. And I really overreacted to the situation. It was disproportionate. My fear factor was disproportionate. And so I do realize I don’t think I would have ever married a farmer die. I don’t think as an adult, never.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (27:39.746)

wanted that level of insecurity that it was dependent on the prices, the cream prices and the weather systems. I also don’t think I’ve ever married an entrepreneur.

Mmm, for the same risk profile.

I don’t want to lose it all. I don’t think I’ve ever met an artist. I’ve always had a crush on Hugh Jackman. It’s funny, my husband is an engineer and it wasn’t a conscious decision.

Well maybe it… yeah.

But I think at a subconscious level, like, engineer, you know. And so I see that now. But I also think those experiences that were a little jarring for me and did create some insecurity in me also fueled agency and fueled drive. And my mom actually was a fairly passive person.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (28:36.204)

I think also reacting against my mom, like no one’s ever gonna say I’m sitting back and being passive, like really fueled, like, you know, if it’s gonna be, it’s up to me, like go out and get shit done. And I think that also shaped me too.

Yeah and I tell a story Margie about what defined my agency about being financially independent was in growing up in in the country setting that I grew up in it was commonplace every week to hear my mother say on a Monday morning, Max can you leave me a check on the dresser? Now wasn’t that mum had to beg for money it’s just that dad controlled the bank account in

as was done in those times, even though she was the daughter of a bank manager. And I can remember hearing that every week and it would play over in my head and I used to think, why does mum have to rely on dad to have any income? And it was a drip feed to go.

I’m not going to do that. I am going to be financially independent and not rely on anybody else or a man for my financial security. different story, but same impact.

think there’s a lot of women who have witnessed that or they witnessed their parents breaking up and dad, sure, mom got something, but she could only get, she could only do an hourly job because she hadn’t worked for years. She couldn’t afford to keep the house because she couldn’t afford the rates on it, you know, or whatever. Yeah, men aren’t a financial plan is what I would say. I’ve often said, don’t.

DI GILLETT: Host (30:12.046)

Exactly.

DI GILLETT: Host (30:19.456)

That might be a grab, Margie. aren’t a financial plan. I kind of like that. And not to be disrespectful to any of the men in our lives, but I get it.

Men are awesome. I’m a huge man fan. I have three awesome young sons and a great husband, But I do think as women, it’s so important for us to be rooted in both our, obviously our feminine power, but you know, some of the masculine like, you know what, you don’t need, I mean, they choose to be with someone because they make you better and they bring out your best, not because you need it. And something I’ve seen die,

with women so many times and it hurts my heart is women who settle for a man because it’s the best I can get because they’re afraid of being alone because they don’t feel complete without a man to protect them and I’m not saying I don’t love that my husband gives me a sense of feeling protected and we’re together, sure great, but I know I can stand on my own two feet and that was a really wonderful place to go into.

a relationship when I was in my 20s. Because it’s like I’ve traveled around the world. I’m extremely independent.

You arrived there early, Margie, because I mean I think a lot of women don’t land at that point of standing on their own, you know, feeling empowered enough to stand on their own two feet until much later in life than early 20s, so.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (31:47.822)

Yeah, well I think that is to die. left home at 18 to move to Melbourne for university. There was no family. I had to find somewhere to live through the papers. You know, that was the Wednesday age. I, there was no school dormitory. didn’t, there was no living at Trinity college or I. You if you had that, I would have loved it. It would be awesome. I was living with random people in random.

Indeed, I apologize.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (32:16.696)

sometimes like really

Ordinary setting, yeah.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (32:23.87)

I mean, got something from the government because my parents

would have been called teese in those days, Margie.

But I also work three jobs and so I think by the time I got to 22, I’m four years being 100%. I mean, even before I left home, I was making all my own money, buying my own bedding. So it sort of gave that grittiness, that tenacity, resourcefulness that I think some kids, when parents are buying you your own car, when your dad’s helping you figure out how to sell or whatever,

You’re used to putting your hand out and not driving your own decisions.

actually even as a parent die, you know, my kids would never accuse me of over-parenting. I’ve been very much like, figure it out. you know, I think as they’re getting now into their twenties, they can see that they have a self-reliance and independence that even though I could have given them things that my parents couldn’t afford to give me, I’m like,

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (33:33.696)

I’ve got kids living in New York and people go, you do help them with rent? A lot of people I know help their kids with rent. I’m like, no, you want to live in New York? You need to learn how to live in New York on your school salary and in the hovel that you can afford. even though I could help you, I want you to know what it is to be poor.

Well, and I love that because I think there is so many parenting mistakes made of, want to give my kids everything I didn’t have. I think that point is an error and I know in my own upbringing if I was a horse rider and a dressage rider and if I wanted anything to do with livestock or anything to support that career and I didn’t have the money, I’d have to go to dad and negotiate and I had invested in.

a small herd of cattle, in fact, with my father. And I used to sit down and he would say, well, how many are you prepared to sell to fund what you want? And if you’re prepared to do that, I’ll tip in the shortfall. So everything was a negotiation, but nothing was just given. And I think there’s huge lessons in that. And I paid my own rent from day dot post.

post-Trinity and I think that plays a lot into building character.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we’re all figuring out as parents and I think it’s a little more complex, but honestly, the more affluent you are, I think the more thoughtful and intentional you are. Because when you can afford to solve all your kids’ problems by buying them things and paying for them to get out of trouble and helping, okay, you didn’t go to that school because you’re expelled, let me put you in this other elite school. I think…

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (35:22.248)

Actually we can make a lot bigger mistakes and faster than when we don’t have those means.

So coming up, we’re going to explore bold thinking and how that can propel you forward. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

So I’m talking with Margie Worrell, global expert and leader in human behavior. Margie, in the break, you mentioned something, a phrase, post-traumatic growth. Could you expand on that for me?

We’ve all heard of post-traumatic stress or post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD.

Post-traumatic growth is in one sense the opposite of it, though the two of them can coexist. But post-traumatic growth is when people emerge from a traumatic circumstance, traumatic experience, as a more positive, more evolved, more mature, more purposeful, more connected person than they were before.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (36:41.866)

And so there are various things that can help to facilitate post-traumatic growth. And as I said, we can be suffering symptoms of PTSD, which I did after that armed robbery in hindsight. I didn’t recognize it at the time. had some PTSD in the, like I just completely overreacted one day, six months later when I was in Chapel Street, Melbourne, and I couldn’t find my husband who was supposed to rendezvous at a point outside Safeway or something.

And my brain went straight away to he’s being murdered, he’s lying in a back alley and he’s dead. And then when I found him after 20 minutes, I went hysterical. I thought you were dead, which was a completely ridiculous response. But it was clearly triggered by the experience six months earlier, the very close order of the robbery and the miscarriage that helped me, that jarred my world that bad things don’t happen to And I’m like, I was waiting for the next penny to drop.

What’s the next terrible thing? My husband’s going to get murdered. And so I had PTSD, which I’m pleased to say I don’t have anymore. However, I did emerge through that experience over time.

far more purposeful with an enlarge. actually, our mental maps of the world get smashed and we’ve got to come up with new mental maps that can incorporate that bad stuff happens and it happens to me. But that life is good and that life is worthwhile and that we can find purpose and positive things even in the hardest and harshest of circumstances.

And even I you know, I think back of say having the eating disorder had I not had that I might have been a little bit more judgmental and righteous about people who are stuck in cycles of addiction or in patterns of behavior that were whether it was alcoholism or gambling addicts or Shopaholics or you know, I might was sex addicts at such I’m like, for God’s sake just stop it. I might have said

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (38:52.238)

But having been in that, I knew, you know, we could just stop it. We’d just stop it.

Glass houses, yeah

Yeah, so you know more empathy all of these things and so you know I really strongly believe and now I mean I you know some people might know the name of Gabor Mate who has talked so much about this thing. and obviously I’ve only come to know him in the last couple of years but for all of us I

Yeah.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (39:26.366)

I think those things that wound us, we’re all gifted and wounded by our childhoods. And those experiences that test us the most, that can sometimes just really hurt our hearts, don’t have to be things that leave massive scar tissue, would, you forevermore, I am never opening up to someone, I’m never trusting someone that make us bitter.

and I know it’s cliche, but I think when we can pour a lot of love into ourselves and do the work and heal ourselves, and often that’s in relationship with others, that we can actually emerge from that a fuller, deeper version of who we could become. And those experiences actually can ultimately be incredibly shaping and formative in positive ways.

And I absolutely applaud what you’ve said, but I also realize there is a fork in the road of going left or right when these things hit. Is there a piece of wisdom that you could share with listeners, about how you make that decision to take that?

and build that into the strength of character rather than allow it to pull you into the abyss.

Yeah, firstly I think if anyone that’s listening is in the midst of a really difficult time, this isn’t to diminish that sometimes life’s experiences can be just incredibly painful. We can feel tremendous heartache and anguish and so I don’t want to diminish that for anyone that’s going through that because it’s real.

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (41:32.302)

But I also know, and the research bears this out, as hard as it is right now, it doesn’t stay this hard forever. We often underestimate our ability to heal. And the emotions, as intense as they are right now, over time, those emotions aren’t as intense. And so I think of…

Victor Frankel and a book that I always recommend to everybody which is Man’s Search for Meaning and he was obviously for those some of you may know who he is already he a he was a Jewish man caught up in the Holocaust in Auschwitz but you know that in the midst of the most difficult circumstances the ultimate freedom the human freedom is to choose our response and to decide you know

Who it is we will be in the midst of all of these things that we would never have chosen, didn’t feel prepared for. And, you know, I wrote a lot about this in, the courage gap, like just anchoring in on who is it that you want to be and not letting what’s going on around you define who it is you want to be and putting who before do. And I think for me over the years with, you know, the 101

shitty things that have happened in the years since some of those experiences I’ve talked about. It’s come back, well, you know what, if I’m someone who has the capacity to rise above any circumstance, then what can I do today that will help move me in that direction? And maybe it’s just nursing the wound and giving myself time to just really cry. Maybe it’s just sharing it with someone else. Maybe it’s writing about it.

Maybe it’s taking myself out for a long walk under a bunch of trees because I always feel a little bit better when I’ve been in nature. But it’ll help me instead of just being a victim to the circumstance to go, no, what is it I could do that’s going to help me move through this? And there’s a phrase that life doesn’t happen to us, it happens for us. And that may sound a little cliche and patsy, but if life is

MARGIE WARRELL_Guest (43:43.374)

always giving you an issuing a silent invitation for you to grow in your own humanity. What might it be pointing you toward right now? And we can put a lot of energy into fighting with reality. It shouldn’t be this way. My husband shouldn’t have cheated on me. We shouldn’t have gone broke. I shouldn’t have a kid that’s got this addiction. I shouldn’t have a parent as I just went through.

who is I’m losing to the fog of dementia or, you know, and we can just get stuck up, stuck in railing against realities versus who is it I choose to be in the midst of all of this? And, you know, I do a lot of work in the leadership space, but the number one person we ever have to lead is ourselves and really anchoring in, you know, those values and the virtues of who it is we choose to be. And I think in our relationships that,

We need that most of all because it’s in our relationships that causes the most stress and heartache. And you know, I know when my brother was in and out of psych hospitals and then, you know, in trouble with the law and I was trying to help him and I was, you know, trying to give him tips on how to turn his life around. And then I just had to let go and go, this is his path to forge and he’s going to do, I mean, I can, I’ll support him, but

I can’t save him. And even with my kids, not that my kids have been in a circumstance like that, but they sometimes make choices that I take a breath and I’m like, know what? They’ve got their path to forge and I just love them. And maybe I point out and have them think through the second and third order consequences of decisions, but this is their path to forge.

their journey and their learning. But again, just choosing who is it that I choose to be. I want to be a source of love. I want to be a source of encouragement. And I want to be someone who continually shows up with some consistency on the values that I care about too.

DI GILLETT: Host (45:49.474)

Fantastic, Margie, that’s incredible. And I think one of the most powerful lines I take away from that, from where I started the question that led to that incredible response is, choose your response. So, or we choose our response rather than allowing circumstances to define you. And I think that’s incredibly powerful and a great message.

Margie, could I throw a couple of quickfire questions, rapid fire to wrap up today? What’s the bravest decision you’ve made in the past five years?

Ooh, five years. I know. So when I moved back to United States, I was recruited, it was the midst of deep dark COVID, to become a senior partner at Cornferry, which is a big global consulting firm. And I was in the advisory practice working with board CEOs and exec teams of the world’s biggest companies. It was a lot of status.

It provided a lot of nice things, including the security of income. And after my mom died two years ago, I just got so much clarity that one day I’m going to die. And I’m going to look back and I just knew that I needed to leave because I was like, you know what? You are not using your talents for the highest good here. I felt like I was starting to shrink a little. I was losing touch with

what I think is that makes me different. And so I chose to leave that. And you know what, going back out on my own, you know, one is that, yes, there’s the financial salary that yeah, do I miss that? Sure. I know over time I’ll make up for it. But I think for me, that was a brave thing to do. But by the same token, I’ll also say I knew I had to do it. I just had to do it because actually it was more, what would have been more terrifying to me is not to do it.

DI GILLETT: Host (47:54.786)

Yeah, wow, thank you. And for a woman listening right now who feels unseen, what would you want her to hear from you?

would say pour love into those parts of you that feel like you’re not enough and that feel unseen and just extend grace into yourself and all of the kindness and things that you’ve given to others, like really pour it into you and know that you are innately worthy and wholly adequate and

And I believe fully seen by God, whether people believe that God or not, believe that. And I would just say, just know that who you are and your worth and your value is not determined by anybody else. It is just innate and intrinsic in you.

Could you finish this sentence for me? Bravery is.

fear walking.

DI GILLETT: Host (49:04.814)

Amazing. Margie, there is so many valuable insights from the story that you have shared and you have been extraordinarily generous in sharing some pretty challenging circumstances that you faced into through your life. But more importantly, how you’ve actually come through that out the other end and are now applying that to a

purpose-led life, think that is just incredibly inspiring. So thank you so very much for the candid conversation today. If somebody wants to engage your services, Margie, how do they do that?

Well, you can just head over to my website, margieworal.com and obviously there’s books there. I actually just launched a brand new course on LinkedIn that people might enjoy doing. It is just the best quality and highest production quality course I have ever done. It’s super exciting.

But you can find everything on my website, just for anyone who would like more. And I also have my own podcast called the Live Brave podcast that people are welcome to check out wherever you’re listening to this, you’ll find the Live Brave podcast too.

Wonderful. I’m sure there are many more powerful stories there. Margie, thank you so much. think the best advice I can give anybody is share this episode with somebody you think might just need a little bit of help in getting over a dose of adversity or a setback or a feeling of self doubt because there is so many messages that are uplifting and

DI GILLETT: Host (50:52.844)

Choose your response is going to be one of the ones that I’m going to keep replaying. Margie Worrell, thank you so much. Until next time.

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