Select Page
Stressed? What Your Heart Rate Is Telling You

Stressed? What Your Heart Rate Is Telling You

by | May 4, 2026 | Female Leaders, Health & Wellbeing

Most high-performing women believe they are coping. The data tells a different story. In this episode, Di Gillett sits down with Jane Smorodnikova, founder and CEO of Welltory: the world’s first consumer app to use heart rate variability (HRV) to measure stress, energy and recovery in real time – to have the conversation that every woman running on empty needs to hear.

From building a 16-million-user global platform without institutional funding, to navigating the physiological cost of chronic stress as a female founder, Jane brings both the science and the lived experience. This is an evidence-based, boundary-pushing conversation about what is really happening inside the female nervous system, and what the data reveals when we stop lying to ourselves.

 

➡️We explore :

How Jane built a 16-million-user platform to profitability without Silicon Valley backing

The personal cost of founder stress and what Jane believes triggered early perimenopause signs

Why women experience stress differently – the ‘tend and befriend’ response versus fight or flight

What signals high-performing women consistently ignore and how long the nervous system can compensate before it forces a reset

Heart rate variability explained in plain language and why it is a more powerful measure than steps, calories or hours slept

How HRV shifts during perimenopause and menopause, and why so many women in midlife are misdiagnosed

The role of AI in personal health – where it genuinely helps and where caution is essential

Who really owns your biometric data — and what happens to it when investors get involved

Jane’s daily non-negotiables for her nervous system and her one metric every woman should prioritise over productivity and weight

 

Key Takeaways:

Stress is not just psychological – it accumulates physiologically and the body keeps an honest score, even when the mind insists it is coping.

Women’s stress response is biologically distinct. The ‘tend and befriend’ pattern means women often channel stress into caring for others, masking burnout until the system crashes.

Heart rate variability is the metric of adaptability. The more variable your heart rate, the more resilient your nervous system.

Running in the morning does not cancel ten hours of back-to-back Zoom calls. Stress management requires active release throughout the day, not just morning exercise.

Six hours of sleep sustained across a week produces cognitive impairment equivalent to being drunk.

Perimenopause is frequently misdiagnosed as depression or anxiety. HRV data can help women identify that something is physiologically shifting and advocate for themselves with greater authority.

Biometric data is legally yours – but understanding who owns the company holding it matters.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:03)

So Jane, in your view, what is the power of women?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (00:09)

When I hear that, I mostly think about the systems and organisations and movements women built to solve their own problems outside of system and organisations built by men and for men. So, for example, when Venture Capital firm that is from women decide to invest in female founders.

 

because they are basically 30 times more successful but get only 2 % of venture capital. Or when there is a community that’s lobbying research for endometriosis or ⁓ bringing the gaps in scientific research because most of medical and health research is made by ⁓

 

on men bodies because men’s body considered as a human body and women are too complicated to research because of the cycles and all these things. So yeah, I think the power of women is like when women just stop relying on society and start to solve their own problems by themselves.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:31)

So how many of you believe you’re managing stress or is it your body simply compensating? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power Of Women Podcast and welcome to our regular listeners and for those new to this platform, we’re about the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

 

Now I know health and wellbeing and the focus on managing our stress levels has become a recurring theme on this podcast of late. But personal experience and your feedback has catapulted this to front of mind and if it’s happening to me, I suspect it’s happening to you too. Which is why I am thrilled to welcome today’s guest with whom I’m going to take a more evidence-based angle to the discussion.

 

as we explore the intersection of leadership, science, resilience, and the reality of modern stress. Jane Smorodnikova is the founder and CEO of Waltory, the first consumer app to use heart rate variability. I’m gonna say that again for Daryl. The first consumer app to use heart rate variability to help everyday people understand stress,

 

energy and recovery in real time. Jane took a clinical metric once reserved for elite athletes and laboratories and turned it into a daily decision-making tool used by millions globally. And you may recognize the name as the app on your iPhone or your smartphone with the red heart. But behind the 16 million user platform is a woman managing her own nervous system.

 

And that’s part of today’s conversation. And what we’re going to cover is scaling a global business, the physiological cost of chronic stress on high performing women and how HRV changes our understanding of recovery and where AI enhances health and also where caution is required. So let’s get started. Jane Smirodnikova, welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (03:52)

Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:57)

Jane, could we just wind back before Woltree became a 16 million user platform? What did you identify as the opportunity and what was behind the app?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (04:12)

Yeah, basically, you know, ⁓ it was a pure ambition because ⁓ I was a fan of this like changing the world’s disruption startups. And at about 35, I had something like a panic attack that, you know, all the big challenges and big markets are transformed with data already. And it’s like nothing left to make something huge. ⁓

 

Of course, it was a silly thought, anyway, and ⁓ I realized that healthcare is the last industry that was not transformed with data. At the same time, human generated data is growing much faster than any other data on the planet. ⁓ And that’s an opportunity. So you just see like the biggest market on earth, the biggest challenge on earth, and it’s unsolved.

 

So that’s how we actually started to go there. And next, if you want to do something in any industry with the data, you need to find your metric. Because all transformation like Spotify metric is the data that how you actually listen to particular song. For marketing, it’s how you click on particular ad.

 

or Uber is geolocation data of the driver. So if you want to transform ⁓ an industry, you need a metric. And the first problem we found is that actually there was no metric for health, only metrics for disease. And that’s how we actually found the heart rate variability that can track you from like ⁓ you’re almost dead to you’re in your best shape possible.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:02)

Hmm, isn’t that interesting we had the negative not that not the positive. Yeah

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:07)

Yeah, and that’s why hardware rate variability was used for people in whose health and performance some industries are interested in, like professional athletes, like military. Yeah, and for normal human beings, there is no financial interest at any organization or a group.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:36)

Yeah, yeah

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:37)

In our health, basically.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:39)

Yeah, so with that in mind Jane, how difficult was it to get the interest of investors when you came up with this idea?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (06:51)

So basically we have never raised institutional funding, only some angels because we were not able to manage like when we came to Silicon Valley in 2018 and we had this app that was able to track hardware capability with just a phone camera and interpret it in a personalized way.

 

and investors got their medical experts and medical experts told us that heart rate variability will never be popular and our bet was that it will be on the risk in 24-7 months and they said it’s not possible it will not happen anytime so we lost our chances to fundraise ⁓ but we were right and they were wrong so we just you know

 

decided to continue without ⁓ big venture funding and became profitable as a result.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:48)

There you go, that’s very satisfying I bet.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (07:51)

Yeah, you know, it’s a very cool thing talking about like tracking your founder’s stress. There is no more stressful thing that ⁓ your chances to die every month. so on our young years before profitability, I had a really strong correlation between my stress levels and our revenue. And

 

This correlation just disappeared when we became profitable.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:23)

Yeah, there you go. think many could relate to that, albeit not everybody puts their everything on the line to throw into a business. So at what point did you realise that this had potential to scale globally?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (08:42)

It was about three years of the company ⁓ when finally ⁓ Apple Watch managed to measure heart rate variability in the background. We understood that ⁓ you can’t build a huge company if you have retention metrics like usual health app, ⁓ like a benchmark. You need something extraordinary.

 

and that’s why we turned all the data we collect into something like a Twitter feed from your body and when we launched it, we started to grow like crazy, like 30 % per month and people, retention spiked and people tried, like started to buy it like crazy.

 

So, and we grew like, without funding, the problem is that when you grew too fast, at some point your servers will not…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:40)

Yeah. So you needed the funding to even exist. Yeah. Yeah.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (09:47)

Yeah, yeah, and it was hard because there was no funding for us ⁓ and like we had to repair our service, we changed our technical team, we changed leadership team. Somehow we survived, I think only because of the team and their dedication to our company and mission.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:07)

How many of you in the team in those early days, Jane?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (10:10)

about 100 people.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:11)

Okay, yeah, so there was quite a workforce behind it. So in that funding journey and not being able to go to market because of the wonderful promotion of those in the finance world, did you find the angel funders were female-centric, tech-centric? What were the profiles of the

 

of the actual angel funders who became interested in this proposition.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (10:42)

Basically, ⁓ most of our angels are just like people who knew us before and who understood that basically they invest in the team, like just trust them that you’re able to build something. So that’s where our first investors and of course, like our connections and connections of my co-founders were like the major reason for

 

like about like 10 million fundraising that we made in like our early days from the angels but it’s actually pretty big in terms of the angels so most of them are entrepreneurs like founders who had built their own company and there are different ⁓ like process management companies, gaming companies

 

logistics companies like ⁓ other setups like this so most of them are founders not professional investors.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:41)

Yeah, interesting. So my question, my next question could be could be personal or commercial. What did growth actually cost you?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (11:55)

⁓ I personally think that’s ⁓ the reason I started to get early pyramid-aposal signs because of that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:09)

Please do. Expand on that.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (12:12)

Yeah, because it’s really hard. You know, I know that ⁓ and it’s like there have been research about this that founders are more stress resilient than most people. And that’s actually how you get into this crazy job. ⁓ But as a result,

 

you have no way out, you cannot just go to another company and ⁓ just decide that’s all for me, so you just need to stand no matter what. ⁓ I think that I have seen all my limitations and reached my limits a lot of times and of course it’s

 

You have to learn to manage this because you can adjust, you know, burnout and go to sabbatical for two months. ⁓ So you don’t have such an option. So you have to learn how to manage yourself, even if the pressure is too high. And ⁓ at the same time, you know, I think that when I was young and when I was like, if it

 

In more early days, I just decided that I should not rely on any venture funding. I should not expect any understanding from any external ⁓ community and just rely on yourself. It would save me a lot of energy.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:47)

I was going to say, is that more or less stressful not having the pressure of external funding?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (13:57)

It’s much easier to rely on yourself. It’s what right now, like for last couple of years, when my co founder left and I like the only one standing founder in the company, it was first it was like really hard. But then you realize that ⁓ it’s much easier to just rely on yourself and manage yourself without any expectations without

 

like trying to be nice and look good and etc etc and managing your own energy with respect.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:31)

Yeah. So how have you managed the pressure? What have you done?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (14:36)

You know, it’s like really ⁓ stupid personal tricks because like for everybody you just need to, ⁓ if you want to achieve something, you need to invest in your recovery and support system, like in your infrastructure. And it’s like, it should be serious. So that’s why actually I live on the islands. I see the sea every day in my window. I can meditate in a Buddhist temple.

 

⁓ I can go to Thai massage on a daily basis or weekly basis. So you invest in your recovery and your infrastructure.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:18)

Sure. So Jane, can you just share with our listeners, where do you spend six months of your year? Where are you right now?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (15:28)

I live on an island called Koh Samui. It’s near the temple that was in that Netflix series about Thailand recently. I live here. my house is even in the series. Easy, really. There you go. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:37)

White lotion.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (15:48)

And it’s very nice here. It’s very peaceful. Nothing is happening here. It’s very stable. And so I just travel to Europe, to the United States for business meetings. So I had this particular time in the year when I communicate with external worlds. And then I just go back to a safe spot and work on the intellectual heavy tasks on algorithms, on building the company and the product, etc.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:18)

So have you been monitoring your own heart rate variability during the journey of building the business?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (16:26)

Of course, for us it’s our everyday. We are not just monitoring heart rate variability, we are monitoring everything and building new algorithms all the time. But thanks God, thanks to ⁓ Valtteri, think my heart rate variability today is better than 10 years ago when I was smoking and not exercising and not monitoring everything.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:50)

There you go. weren’t, you weren’t, see, you weren’t a good pin up in those days. So it’s taken you down a wellness, conscious wellness approach as well, which, but I can understand that the stresses of founders don’t always see you follow the best habits because the pressure’s high. So Jane, for…

 

high performing women listening and what you’ve learned about this data that you have been gathering, what are the signals that we typically ignore?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (17:26)

Basically, ignore most of the signals from our body. we, like people in Western civilizations are not aware about what is going on in their bodies. And the problem when pressure started to grow and you started to experience stress, your ability to feel decreased even more. So that’s why you just get your stress reaction. ⁓ And

 

If your stress is not managed and it’s not finished, it just continues to accumulate. And here is like very important thing about the women, because we were taught that stress is a fight or fight response. ⁓ So just you can run or you can fight, but for women, there is a third way. It’s called something like ten and be friends. So

 

they just start to take care more about people around them because it’s a pattern they use to build a more safe environment. And that’s how they become obsessed with the clean and taking care of kids and taking care of their partners, et cetera. And when they do not have a great feedback on that and support, ⁓

 

and oxytocin that should be generated there, they just get more burnout and more stress. And that’s why you just like, you need to find out what type of stress and what type of emotion actually you’re experiencing ⁓ and find a way to release the stress. Like for example, if you feel anger and aggression and rage, go to MMA or something and actually beat somebody.

 

It’s like, it’s very good ⁓ to, ⁓ like, you know, just to release your stress. Or if you feel anger, but it’s cold, go to shooting and shoot something. ⁓ It also works very well. If you feel fear, you can run. And that’s when running is really helpful and walking is really helpful. And if you feel unsafe,

 

build connections, but if your relationships in your house are not good, fill it outside with some women group, with volunteering, with something that actually will give you gratitude back to support and like will make you feel more safe.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:04)

So with coming back to the app for a moment, does it show how the impact of stress or does it detect the impact of stress on our sleep, our hormones and on our cognitive clarity?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (20:24)

So basically ⁓ you can see how your brain is ready for work every day if you’re measuring the morning. So you can see your ability to focus and you can see ⁓ how much energy do you have and of course you can see how your sleep is changing if something is wrong. So yeah you can see all this stuff like except probably hormones because it’s a blood ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:49)

future.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (20:50)

⁓

 

Yeah, yeah, much much harder to measure but yes, you can see all this and like the most important thing that ⁓ why we are like calling this like the first up to measure it in real time is that you we can track your stress that is accumulated ⁓ when you’re just sitting down with a zoom call with a stressful person, for example, and you can see

 

that this person basically is generating your stress and this one and talks with this one are actually good for you. And then you can see how walking or other activities are releasing your stress and you can see how you can release the stress and that’s how to manage through the day not to come to 100 stress at the end of the day. Because you know, there is a huge myth around

 

the women or the high-performing men that if you are running in the morning, ⁓ enjoying in the morning, and then you have 10 hours of Zoom calls, and basically you’re okay because you’re exercising, that’s bullshit. Because ⁓ you spent 10 hours accumulated with the stress, you went to the sleep with 100 % of stress, your sleep was not good, and you’re just in the cycle of burnout.

 

So of course you will be more resilient, a little bit more resilient than if like in comparison with people who are not exercising at all. But managing stress is not about just this. You need to fill these things into the day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:26)

Like anything, if we don’t measure it, we don’t know what’s going on and therefore we can’t address it. So is the crux of what makes this so valuable, the fact that it is gathering the data and giving us the measurement by which to make the decisions, is that the sweet spot?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (22:49)

Yes, because it’s very personal. Nobody can provide you any recommendations and interventions that actually 100 % will work for you.

 

⁓ Everybody is unique, your environment is unique, your body is unique, you need to find out things that are working for yourself in your personal conditions. So that’s why you just need to see what is going on when you try these things, how your body reacts, when you try these things, how your body reacts. Sometimes you just find out something cool like, for example, I know a of people who are just laying down with a laptop on the Zoom calls.

 

and their stress stops accumulating because they’re laying down. And for other people it doesn’t work like that. So you just need to like explore yourself like you’re a scientist of yourself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:44)

Yeah, got it. Well look, you’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to unpack how HRV operates in practical language, what it tells us about our energy and recovery and we’ll also touch on perimenopause and menopause.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. I’m talking with the founder of WellTourie, Jane Smarovna Kovar, and it’s a 16 million user platform turning heart rate variability into a daily decision-making tool for stress, energy and recovery.

 

Jane, can you tell us in layman’s terms how this app actually works?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (24:41)

So basically the best way to use our app is just to wear some wearable like Samsung Watch or FitBait or Apple Watch, like anything and connect it to the app. And by getting data from these wearables, we build some visualizations that in the background are really

 

personalized and scientific and based on like tons of millions of data of people like you. ⁓ And it shows how your body reacts and what is going on with your body. ⁓ Talking about your sleep, your exercises, your recovery process, your stress, your energy, like, and basically even your general health, like your

 

ability of your body to cope with what is going on. And if this metric is going down, you actually need to go to the hospital if you see the red lights ⁓ out there. So we are not able to diagnose anything. We are not able to give medical recommendations, of course. But ⁓

 

We have seen tons of stories when we have got a one-star review with a mention that, you know, why you’re telling me that I’m not okay, I feel okay. And usually it means that people just used to feel like that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:12)

Mmm, they’ve got no benchmark.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (26:15)

Yeah, I think that it’s normal. ⁓ But then we tracked this ⁓ reviews ⁓ after like several months. It’s improved on the five star review. And they write to us that, you know, I came to the doctor, I made some tests, we have found this and it can be something different. And so thank you guys, because actually you’re right. ⁓ So that’s ⁓

 

That’s the most lovely review for our team. Every time we just make a check that we help somebody and it feels pretty good.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:55)

rate variability tells us what in essence. ⁓

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (27:00)

To explain heart rate variability, think it’s the very important thing is to understand the difference with the pulse ⁓ which is like your average ⁓ heart rate ⁓ during a minute. imagine a grandma in a room with a temperature of zero, but she has a warm coat, a hat, boots and all the things. And you know that she’s…

 

like being there for an hour with an average temperature of zero, do you think she’s okay? And you think like probably if the cold is warm, she’s fine. But if you know that every 10 minutes the temperature goes from plus 30 to minus 30 for the whole hour, you will not think that she’s okay after this hour. But the median, average

 

temperature is still zero. So that’s the difference. So heart rate variability is milliseconds between each heartbeat. And it’s a time series that shows much more information about what is going on. It shows how your heart tries to adapt to everything what is going on with you. And the nervous system is signaling to your heart, should they be faster or slower or things like that.

 

Your ability of your body to adapt to what is going on is your health. You can imagine some, I don’t know, the tree that you can flex and it’s not breaking, it’s just flexible and that’s your health. But if you will push too much,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:48)

It’ll break.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (28:50)

And that’s your disease basically. So if every disease occurs in your body when the ⁓ pressure is too much and you’re not able to handle, that’s why variability is adaptability. That’s why the more variable you are in general is the better. But just in general, because there are conditions and people for whom like

 

Too much heart rate variability is also not good. It means something just stopped working out there. Yeah, so it’s very personalized. It’s very unique for each phenotype, the type of your nervous system, the type of your genes, et cetera. That’s why you should never just compare bluntly your metrics with other human beings and look more on yourself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:44)

Jane, for those unfamiliar, why is it HRV a more powerful measure than perhaps measuring our steps, our calories or in fact the hours slept?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (29:57)

Yeah, basically, you know, steps are really useless because in terms of your health or longevity, it’s really important to go to some cardio zones that are usually higher than usual walking. So of course, like walking 10,000 steps per day is better than 2,000 steps per day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:24)

But some of those need to be at greater exertion.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (30:27)

Yeah,

 

yeah, so it’s just not enough just to track steps. Yeah, you need to go to the heart rate and the cardio zones. Then talking about like, so heart rate variability is the metric that actually reflects how your body is coping with what is going on and can be measured in a passive mode without any actions and just be collected and be interpreted in like

 

closer to real time. ⁓ So that’s why wearing a wearable with a high quality signal is really something that

 

is important and can collect a lot of data for you. even if you’re like our last algorithms ⁓ and algorithms that we are actually using to detect that ⁓ this Zoom meeting is like more stressful than another one, we are actually not using the heart rate variability itself, but our new algorithms that are trained on heart rate variability, but just uses your heart rate fluctuations during your talking and your personal baselines

 

So it allows you to actually track every minute of your life.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:43)

So that’s actually tapping into our cortisol levels really if somebody’s spiking at all or not.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (31:49)

Yes, yes. And it gives you a metric that is about feedback from your body about everything you are doing and that you can use this data to explore yourself, to know yourself better and to manage yourself better.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:09)

So if I’ve got ⁓ my wearable on and I’ve hooked up to the app and I am checking my HRV on a daily level, a daily occurrence, what are the patterns I should be looking for? Are there actual patterns and changes that I should be monitoring for?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (32:33)

You know, it really depends on ⁓ the app you have. the best companies out there who are experts in heart rate variability interpretation, and it’s really not that easy process like Aura or Woop or us, ⁓

 

Each of us develop our own like metrics that actually reveals something, some signal from all this like data. And by like choosing the provider, you’re choosing a set of metrics that actually you’re reflecting on because like the raw metrics are not that useful for not professional people. And each company develops their metric in

 

in connection with the audience they want to reach. Like for example, if WUAP is positioned for people who are actively exercising, the metrics they develop, the stress and recovery metrics or readiness metrics are related to people who are exercising a lot. if like, Aura ⁓ is focused on sleep and she’s like bringing the readiness metric,

 

out of your sleep heart rate variability and shows this and it’s a great metric actually that can be used to track how your daily readiness is changing. So talking about us, are like we also were focusing mostly on like relatively healthy people

 

and we are like changing it right now, but ⁓ we show a lot of metrics, much more because we have been targeting the broader audience from the beginning and the people who are not sick yet and people who are not athletes. And so we have this like long-term metrics like

 

health, so you can monitor the basic high level state of your health. You can monitor intraday fluctuations about what is going on with your body. You can see how your sleep patterns are changing. So it’s a set of metrics and basically visualizations because, you know, people are really bad at interpreting complicated charts. ⁓ So we have found that, for example, showing heart rate variability as a liquid

 

with the color, amount, boiling effects, etc. Like a magic ball of liquid of your nervous system is the best because we incorporate different metrics inside and people intuitively feel, they just see that it’s red and boiling so it’s like not good or it’s like a jelly so they feel like a jelly at the same time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:26)

simple creatures really aren’t we?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (35:29)

Yeah, it’s a very successful visualization. People share it with their relatives all the time, etc. And actually when it’s packed with real science, it works really well. And people feel that ⁓ they learn from it and their brain actually ⁓ training using this data without using their prefrontal cortex. It’s just embodiment.

 

Of what is going on

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:59)

What about when it comes to menopause and perimenopause, which is a topic that invariably comes up for the power of women community, Is this app and is this measure useful at that time in our lives?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (36:18)

⁓ Yes, because you need to notice that something is wrong and you will notice it, that something is wrong. ⁓ I should say that we are not that good in helping perimenopausal women right now, but we are going there this year. That’s the goal of this year for us. ⁓ But what I know is that ⁓ perimenopausal women

 

are usually misdiagnosed, are usually get into depression signs, usually… Yeah, I usually, you know, get highlighted with that you’re depressed or emotional or panicking or etc. And all this is bullshit because there is this like, your ability to adapt is changing because your nervous system become so sensitive.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:53)

So true.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (37:14)

that it’s really hard to adapt to things and that’s why it’s so serious thing. It lasts so long. You need to prepare yourself in life.

 

as soon as possible. You need to build muscle, you need to take care of your bones, you need to get some resistant training when your bones get feedback from reality. You need to get much more protein, etc. So you just like you need to prepare yourself and change your support system because it’s not a joke. And you need to find a doctor who is not thinking that it’s a joke or you’re just depressed.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:53)

With the integration of this data and AI, is there anything or any cautions that you would call out in terms of the information that is coming back? It’s not to be designed as Dr. Google. That’s not what the idea is. This is about giving us real-time information to make informed decisions, yes?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (38:22)

So we are basically ⁓ not ⁓ trying to provide some AI chats right now because everybody is doing AI chat, et cetera. So we are focusing on the data that actually you can take to AI chat and talk with them about it. But talking about AI, of course, is really important because ⁓

 

There is an elephant in the room that ⁓ is positioned like a general wellness in most of these companies, ⁓ but people are talking serious medical questions with them and discussing all of their medical questions with them and tons of people trust AI.

 

more than their doctors actually because doctors just talk with them like 15 minutes or something and with AI they can upload all the data and talk about etc. So I think it’s really serious and we need to understand that it’s a fundamental shift that everybody just start to use AI as a doctor no matter what positioning in marketing you are using.

 

And everybody knows that actually, but like, you know, FDA is calm and do not like want to intervene. ⁓ it’s, and actually, AI is good. But the problem is that it’s as good as the questions that are asked and the data that is provided and the timing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:57)

Of course.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (40:03)

that actually you’re asking and people tend to ask the wrong questions in the wrong time period of time. of course, AI is great and much better than you have you just cannot afford a doctor or you can get to a doctor in six months or something. It’s much better than not having

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (40:25)

But there’s the caution because if you haven’t articulated the question in quite the right manner, the information you’re getting back is only as good as the question asked. It’s like briefing an ad agency. Crap briefing, crap ad. Good briefing, good ad.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (40:41)

Yeah,

 

engineers call it garbage in, garbage out. So ⁓ yeah, the simple tips here, ask one AI to check the answers of another AI. ⁓ After you’re asking something, ⁓ ask, you sure? Prove me, give me some sources. Even two AI, just prove this wrong. Give me some sources. ⁓ Is it really true? Think one more time. So even just this simple thing like, can you think one more time?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:11)

Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good advice. So Jane, who owns the biometric data that you’re gathering?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (41:22)

It’s like who owns is a tricky question. basically, yeah, of course, it’s managed by the companies you’re using to generate, to store and to analyze this data. And the things that ⁓ they will do with this data depends on the law.

 

And thanks God we have the law that says that data is yours and you can take it out, that you can ask them to delete it, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ But also ⁓ you can think about ⁓ the ownership of the company and ⁓ what is like is going on there. Like imagine a startup, for example.

 

is launching and they have great intentions, building great company, building great algorithms, etc. Then they fundraise and then they fundraise one more time and then they fundraise one more time and from broader

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:27)

in the insurance firm invest.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (42:29)

And at broader perspective, you just see a successful company. But you know that ⁓ usually even on the second round of financing, ⁓ founder cannot control anything and cannot stop anything. And then you have a company that is owned by investors and financial people and controlled by financial people and the basic ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:57)

Go Yeah.

 

⁓

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (43:00)

of Deliver C-Corp is to provide the profits ⁓ to the shareholders. like you have a situation when the patient interests can get into confrontation with financial interests. And that’s how we get to the worst things in healthcare that we see right now.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:18)

Absolutely,

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (43:28)

So it’s very important to understand who is behind the company.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:32)

It’s like understanding who’s actually advertising and you often see these well-being ads but you know that it’s being funded by a drug company that’s heavily invested behind the scenes. So hence the question and I know that’s a very political area to get into which we won’t but I appreciate your insights in that Jane.

 

Could I ask you a couple of rapid fire questions just to round up today’s discussion? One daily non-negotiable for your nervous system.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (44:14)

I think it’s like ⁓ moving around the day. ⁓ Small moves, go to coffee, ⁓ lay down, just ⁓ breathe, look at the sea or the sky or something. Just not get stuck into some particular one situation like your chair and Zoom. ⁓ That’s one thing that you should be most afraid of.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (44:44)

One metric, women should care about more than productivity and their weight.

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (44:50)

I would say that it’s their ability to recover and their support system. They should care about their support infrastructure and recovery infrastructure as they do care about their productivity infrastructure. That’s really important and it includes some variables and devices and apps, et cetera, but also other things like the safe space, the personal space, the space when you can be alone.

 

when you can feel engaged with some great social connections, etc. So your support system is like the most important thing. It’s not a joke. It’s a really very important investment.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:32)

Yeah so Jane if a high performing woman is listening to this today and suspects she’s functioning in chronic stress but still tells herself she’s coping what would you say to her?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (45:47)

that you are not coping. ⁓ You can check it out with the data. in denial. Yeah, because usually when we are stressed, ⁓ we try to influence our minds that we are coping, everything is okay, we will get through this, blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and all these things are not healthy.

 

It’s not true that you are more efficient if you just work 12 hours a day. It’s just not true. You are more efficient if you are recovered, if you slept well, if your prefrontal cortex is working actually. So just don’t lie to yourself. ⁓ You don’t have to be like the silly movies when people just work, then sleep for six hours and then work again.

 

There are tons of research that shows that ⁓ in a week of six hours sleep, you are just drunk in terms of intellectual productivity. all this is lie about. Yeah, so ⁓ just get into reality, face your reality, face the reality of your limits of your body. It’s okay. It can be managed in a proper way and everything will be okay.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:58)

Your cognitive impairment.

 

Yeah. So Jane, is the WorldTour app work with all forms of smartphones?

 

JANE SMORODNIKOVA [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah, it works with the iPhone and Android, but not with all wearables. We have the best integration possible, but we try to increase this amount all the time.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:36)

So

 

I can connect my Fitbit to the app and start tracking real time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there we go. So for the listeners today, I think this focus on health and wellbeing, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, has become a little bit of a hefty focus over the last few months. I had a personal experience starting the new year with

 

symptoms of a heart attack turned out that it wasn’t ⁓ and I’m now monitoring just about everything that moves in my world to make sure that I do know what’s going on and in actual fact I do a echo stress test tomorrow so that will tell me even more about my heart rate variability and what’s going on. But to Jane’s point,

 

Don’t ignore what’s going on and there are so many times when we are so run down and so burnt out exactly to the point that was raised our cognitive impairment is the equivalent of being drunk. So if you are getting poor sleep, poor rest, no mindfulness practices, you are probably running on empty and doing yourselves no favors and if you listen to what I talked about on the podcast with Maddy Dyckvold

 

It is not going to be about aging well and your longevity is going to be compromised. And we all know now that protein and our muscle strength and muscle and bone density is a key part to aging well. And this wrapped around it is a great way to track it to know where you’re at. So Jane, thank you so much for your time today and sharing it with our listeners on the Power of Women podcast.

 

and I look forward to sharing more of this information with the community going forward. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

02:24 The Journey of Welltory: From Idea to Global Impact

03:57 Identifying Opportunities in Healthcare Data

08:42 Scaling a Global Business: Key Milestones

11:55 The Personal Cost of Growth

14:36 Managing Pressure: Personal Strategies

17:14 Understanding Heart Rate Variability (HRV)

20:04 The Importance of Listening to Our Bodies

22:26 Measuring Stress and Recovery

26:55 The Science Behind Heart Rate Variability

32:33 Patterns to Monitor in HRV

36:18 Navigating Menopause and Perimenopause

38:22 Cautions with AI in Health Data

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Jane Smorodnikova at:

Website https://welltory.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/smorodnikova/?skipRedirect=true

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/welltory/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

How to Reset, Rebuild & Rise Stronger After a Major Setback

How to Reset, Rebuild & Rise Stronger After a Major Setback

by | Apr 20, 2026 | Burnout, Female Power, Health & Wellbeing

Insights into how to rebuild & rise stronger.

What happens when the very qualities that built your success almost break you? When you whole identity is wrapped up in your career – your title.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett sits down with Tess Brouwer, former Virgin Australia executive, now Chief Energy Officer and Co-Founder of Awake Academy to explore what it truly takes to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger after life changes in an instant.

At 32, Tess was a high-performing corporate leader living in Switzerland when a skiing accident left her with a spinal cord injury, Guillain-Barré diagnosis, multiple surgeries and months in rehabilitation. Her identity had been built on performance, drive and achievement. Suddenly, none of that worked.

This is a raw and honest conversation about identity grief, burnout, nervous system overload, emotional resilience and rebuilding self-worth from the ground up.

 

➡️ You’ll Hear :

The life-changing accident that forced Tess to confront her identity

Why high performers ignore red flags – until they can’t

The difference between grit and true resilience

How mental fitness differs from “pushing through”

Why burnout is often a wake-up call, not a weakness

Practical daily resets to regulate your nervous system

The simple question every ambitious woman must ask herself: Am I enjoying my life?

 

❇ Key Takeaways:

The warning signs high performers need to listen to

The hidden cost of tying self-worth to work

How to train your nervous system under pressure

The power of daily micro-resets.

 

Tess said:

“Power is a silent self-trust.”

“If I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something … who am I?”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (00:02)

Tess, when you hear the words power of women and reflecting on your own experiences, what comes to mind?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:09)

⁓

 

Di, I love that you asked this question and I just turned 40 on the weekend and I you very much. I’ve been thinking about my word and what will it be for the next decade and I anchored on power, believe it or not, and I anchored on that because for me it’s not power I can rule the world, it’s a deep embodiment of who I am.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (00:16)

Happy birthday!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:38)

And knowing that I’ve done the work, that I’ve found my soul, my dark spots, my triggers, I mean, they’re always unfolding. But the power in that when you know yourself, when you start to love yourself again, when you trust in yourself, which I’ve never had that before, and it’s been a long process for me to get there. So I would say it’s like a power for me is a silent self-trust.

 

and a belief in myself that can ride the waves, can ride the storms, and is a really grounded, beautiful force, which is the divine feminine. And so that to me is the true embodiment of power now for me. So bring on power, hey?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (01:26)

Yay. Brilliant. So what happens when the very qualities that built your success, your drive, your identity, your refusal to stop are actually the same qualities that almost break you? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And if you’re joining us for the first time, what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements

 

of women from all walks of life. And this conversation is about pushing through and ignoring some of the signs. And that is a deeply personal conversation for me because I started the beginning of this year, in fact, New Year’s Day, with having a sign, not quite so sure, deciding to listen to it and spent three days.

 

in a hospital in Melbourne in Australia with a suspected heart attack. Now I am absolutely thrilled to say that it didn’t end up being the case, but what it was was the fact that I had pushed too hard and literally run myself into the ground. So to put some more context to this, I am joined today by Tess Brouwer, mental and emotional fitness expert, co-founder of Awake Academy with Lane Beachley.

 

And Tess is the former head of brand partnerships at Virgin Australia. And she’s a woman who rebuilt her life after a life-changing spinal and brain injury. Tess was a high performer in the corporate world. There were big deals, big responsibilities, big identity. Then a skiing accident at 32 changed everything. A spinal injury, Guillain-Barre diagnosis, multiple hospital. ⁓

 

visits, a body that wouldn’t cooperate, and a nervous system in overload. So in a conversation today, we’re going to explore how to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger when your identity fractures. Because the reality is for any of us, life can change in a blink of an eye. Tess Brouwer, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (03:51)

Thank you, Di. When you hear those words being read about you, I’m instantly emotional. I’m instantly back there. Someone said to me the other day, it was actually one of my friends, are you okay? You’re talking about it a lot. And I feel like that’s the true sense of power is, is knowing that it, that trauma and that pain still sits within and you can work through it and you’re comfortable sitting in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:21)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (04:22)

I spent so long ignoring myself, my feelings and my emotions and passing them off as, know, well, there’s a war going on. Who am I to experience pain? but yeah, thank you for a beautiful intro, but yeah, know that it’s still hard hearing that because I still am in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:40)

So all of that emotion is going to come through in our conversation today, Tess. And if there is at any point where you want to call a break, you call a break. Thank Because I get it. Yeah. So could we go back, take us back to the skiing accident? What happened? And more importantly, what happened in the days and the weeks after you realized this wasn’t something you could just ignore and push through?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (05:09)

The truth is, is I knew instantly. So I just moved over to Switzerland and I was like first week, new job, skiing day and went up a black run with the team because that’s what you do when you’re a high performance woman who’s out to impress everyone. And a skier went past me. It was a very, very foggy, like white out up there. And I went straight into the side of a ⁓

 

Ice wall because he had to come down the mountain through And Yeah, I lost both my skis slammed headfirst into the ice wall lost the lost both the skis and just I remember going blank and I remember pins and needles shot through my body and then I just the adrenaline just searched and I just got up laughing trying to kind of overcome what was happening in my in myself and

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (05:40)

because you had no perspective you couldn’t read the ground

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:06)

Deep down I knew, I remember thinking, you’ve done something here. But I had to carry on. I had to do what I’ve always done. I don’t want to be the person that’s in shame or the person that’s the troubled one. I just wanted to click back in and keep going. And I did. And I got off the mountain pretty quickly. I just needed to get away cracking headache and all I wanted to do was go to sleep. And it’s not like me to miss a party day.

 

⁓ And I didn’t want to go to the after party. I just needed to go home and go to sleep now when your identity is wrapped up in your work and For context I had just sold out everything and moved to overseas so

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (06:51)

So this was a permanent move to Europe?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:57)

I’d signed over my residency to Australia. I was now residing in Switzerland. So the mere thought that something was wrong with me and that I would need any sort of form of medical treatment just wasn’t even a concept to me. So I did what I have always done is I carried on. And that looked like for me is pins and needles up and down my hand, loss of feeling in my shoes.

 

I got in my feet, so I got my mum to send over shoes that I loved in Australia because I felt like I had more feeling in my feet in them.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (07:33)

So you’re already looking for band-aids

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (07:38)

And

 

there was a pivotal moment where I was swimming in Lake Geneva and I was diving through the water and I totally lost feeling in my legs. I remember swimming and I remember thinking, I am going to drown because it’s quite, there’s quite a rapid that goes down there. I’m like, everything in me was get to the edge of this jetty.

 

And I got there and I was holding onto the jetty and I remember thinking, like, if you don’t get up, you’re gonna drown. And like with every ounce of my body, I just pushed myself up and I laid there almost like, you know, when you see a seal flop themselves up onto a jetty and they’re like…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:21)

Yeah, legs working

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:23)

legs weren’t working and I was just thinking.

 

And so I do what most normal people do is you get out your phone and you Google your symptoms.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:34)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:36)

And it suggested that I had multiple sclerosis, which I thought, well, I can deal with that. Now, if you’re someone who has that, I’m terribly sorry for downplaying that. But in my head, it was the easier thing to capture in my brain because it was something that I could, it was a long term issue that I could deal with when I got back to Australia, you know, when I went back there another time, because I just, didn’t know how to deal with that medical system either.

 

second link like obviously I didn’t even speak French and it was so there was a series of these moments die that were just like I look back on myself and I’m like what were you ignoring I was wetting my pants at work and just going to the shops and buying new ones

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:20)

And that was the spinal injury pressing on nerves.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:24)

messing on my nerves and what was happening was because my spinal cord was bruised, compressed and swelling, I was going into spinal shock and I didn’t realize it. And people can do incredible things with spinal cord injury and not know about it. And they can still, you can still experiencing loss of feeling in hands and all of that. They’re quite like in quote unquote normal experiences as you know, with your back.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:49)

I do.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:50)

that was spinal shock and then your body’s starting to shut down and and that’s when I went to hospital because I just thought I can’t deal with this any longer and I said to them I hit my head they ignored that and they sent me home with an anxiety tablet. Fortunately I was sent straight back to hospital and the next morning for an MRI and at that point they just said look you’re have to be an inpatient because we’ve got to work out what’s wrong with you there’s something going on so.

 

lumbar punctures, being electrocuted, like actually multiple lumbar punctures which is like possibly

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:25)

Very

 

painful. haven’t had one but I’ve witnessed a family member having it and it was unforgettable.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (10:35)

Yeah, it’s a pain that you can’t explain. And I say this with grace to myself at this moment, but I still didn’t call home. I still didn’t call my mom or my family. Shame. Total shame. How could I have ignored my body? How have I gotten to this point? And I was getting really bad. Like I remember my speech

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:02)

How long is it now since the accident? of Okay. Yes.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:04)

Come on.

 

aggressively getting worse. And

 

then I was an hour away, they decided that I had Guillain-Barré disease, which is sort of like a category that they put me in and thought that’s what you’ve got and you’re an hour away from getting a blood transfusion, it’s time you call home. But we want to do one more MRI to completely make sure that you’re all right. And I went down into the MRI machine and I think it was like my third one because they put dye through me and all of those sorts of potes and prods.

 

And the radiologist in broken English said to me, you hit your head, you hit your head. And I said, yes, like that’s what I’ve been saying. Like I know that that’s when my body changed. You know, that moment, right? It wasn’t dramatic at the time, but I knew that that was the

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:51)

aggressive from there. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:54)

And because I was fit and like I just did not have anything like that before that moment. And I said, yeah, I hit my head and he said, you have a spinal cord injury. And I just went bang. And yet the penny dropped and they gave my mom 24 hours to get over to Switzerland. I had to call her and say, mom, I’m okay. But yeah, I’m and

 

Yeah, she got over there and it was one of the most heartbreaking moments ever is seeing my mum walk into the hospital and her daughter is there broken and quite frightened really.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:35)

As was she.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:37)

But I didn’t grasp the high percentage of people who have this surgery. Well, not high, but it’s low risk, but it’s still a high number.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:45)

Anything

 

to do with your spine is scary. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:49)

I

 

didn’t realise the risk that you could actually, like it’s millimetres and my spinal surgeon said to me, you know, you’re lucky, you’re very lucky, I’ve seen scans like this and people are totally paralysed. And so yeah, I went into surgery and what I thought was going to be an eight week surgery turned out to be, I went back, I had the surgery, stayed in hospital for two weeks, went back to Australia to recover, which I thought would be eight weeks.

 

I thought that’s okay, I can get back to work. Because again, that’s all I thought about was just getting back, getting back. And I was back at the hospital, I was an outpatient at Royal North Shore Hospital in Northern Sydney, which has got one of the best spinal wards in Australia there. And they, I went in for just a routine.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:37)

and

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (13:43)

meeting I guess with my spinal surgeon and the physiotherapist and like my whole dream team and they just said you need to sit down and we’ve given you, I had another MRI and they said your spine is swelling and the surgery hasn’t worked and you’re have to go have another surgery again. And again that’s when the world shuts down on you and you fall apart because I mean for someone who has

 

wanted to be a high flyer and climb the corporate ladder and have all of this identity, I knew that that would be it. There would be no job, no home, no clothes, no money, nothing. It was all gone.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (14:21)

You couldn’t see beyond it at that point. was, it was, it was like, we’re done here.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (14:27)

Yeah, that was it. it was like, I truly like there were so many moments where I didn’t realize how serious it was. So even after the surgery, like the second surgery, and just before I went in, it was like 10, maybe 8, 8pm at night, something like that. And my surgeon got called in and he said, Look, I’ve been operating all day, my team are really tired, I’m not going to operate with there’s only one surgery.

 

ward open and I’m not going to do this at night if you don’t absolutely need it.” He said, do you understand? And I said, yeah, I understand. He goes, it’s going to be uncomfortable for you, but we have, like, I have to make sure that your health is number one. And so I went down for the MRI and I came back out and like your worst fears in that moment are realized when you said we’re opening up the surgery, you’re going in tonight.

 

So it was sort

 

of a bit like that, like a snowball that just got worse and worse and worse as time went on. And even more dramatically, like I was getting prepped for surgery and a heart attack came in. So I hope that person survives so badly, but it meant I was then left told that they couldn’t wait, rushed in for surgery only to be pulled out. And then I had to wait for the next slot.

 

which was another 24 hours later because there was another surgery planned. So it was just insane die. then I went very

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (15:54)

frightening. mean very, very frightening because you don’t know what the prognosis is at the end.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (16:01)

And you can retrospectively look back on these things. And I remember waking up in the spinal ward and them saying, it’s not two weeks here. You’re going to go, like we’ve got to get you recovered. And then you’re going to ride. And I said, what’s ride? Like it’s a, it’s one of Australia’s best rehab hospitals and you’ll be there for three months. And I just thought, am I living life?

 

Is this me? Is this what I’ve worked so hard to be?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (16:34)

And I had nowhere near the result, albeit it was a ski accident, but it was in my childhood that came back to haunt me in 2021, which put me in hospital during COVID and put me in hospital for two weeks. And I came out and I couldn’t walk without holding on to my husband’s arm and I’d gone in super fit.

 

and was at a point in my life where I was gonna be fabulous as I approached 60. And I couldn’t walk and I can remember it was late September and I said, I’m gonna be back to walking 10 Ks by the December. And I was nowhere near it and that’s when I was like, I need to take some drastic steps. But I have a some understanding of what happens when

 

everything suddenly is turned on its head and the simple things in life that we take for granted that are wrapped up in our health and wellbeing suddenly are thrown out and we’re staring down the barrel of an alternative universe that doesn’t look so great. Frightening isn’t it?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (17:53)

Frightening, totally frightening.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (17:57)

So do you know how much of your identity was wrapped up in Tess Brouwer, the corporate executive?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:06)

Well, at that point it was Tess Maroney and it was all of it. Every single part of my identity was made up of my work and we laugh about it, but Lane Beachley’s husband is Kurt Pangeli from InXS and he’s, I mean his phone is Tess from Virgin. In fact, sometimes I’ll still have, I’ll email someone and I’ll say, Hey, it’s Tess from Virgin. you remember? Like, cause I still build this like absolute identity that’s wrapped around

 

what you do not who you are and I never went like my mum was a very and is still a very grounded spiritual person but you don’t really want to hear it from mum and I didn’t like

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (18:37)

Mmm.

 

No,

 

anything that close to home doesn’t land unfortunately.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:53)

Yeah, but I realised like I had done like high performance leadership courses and all of those sorts of stuff, but that’s just training you to be a better performer and not a better human. so I was just, I was lost that if I wasn’t performing, who was I?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (19:11)

Yeah, if I wasn’t Tess from Virgin, who was I?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (19:14)

If

 

I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something or being invited somewhere, who am I? And a lot of my friends were getting married, engaged, pregnant, second baby, like creating these truly beautiful lives. And that was the gaping hole in mine, was I had no one to hug at night. I had no one.

 

to hold me up out of the shower when I couldn’t walk. Like had my mom and my family of course, but it even accentuated that whole fact that, wow, I’ve given everything to work and now I don’t need that.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:00)

Yeah, so can you share with us, and I appreciate this is an emotional question, but can you share with us how that changed or impacted your sense of self? Can you take yourself back and describe what that actually felt like?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:17)

Yeah, I mean like it felt like I was alone in life. No one will ever understand the pain that I’m going through. Now in a ward of 24 beds I was the only walker in a spinal ward. So I was alone there too. I had so much guilt. Survivors guilt.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:40)

because the person in the bed next door couldn’t walk.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:44)

Sorry, I tried to check myself out two or three times and give my bed to someone else. And that is true test across my whole life. will give the shirt off my back to anyone apart from myself.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (20:58)

So you felt like an imposter being in the room? I relate to that. I felt like an imposter when I was in the heart ward at Christmas time because I was sitting up feeling great and the girl in the bed next door had had a pacemaker and the woman across from me wasn’t in a great way. So I get that feeling, but we’re mad. We need to listen.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (21:00)

Totally.

 

We’re mad. And it was the surgeon that said, if you don’t listen to yourself, if you don’t listen to us, and if you don’t put the work in when you’re here, it will be 10 times worse when you get out. And you are here because you need to be here. You’re showing some really strong signs of ⁓ permanent damage. And so this is the time.

 

So then that was a bit easier because I thought, okay, well I’m going to lock in, I know how to perform, I know how to drive myself. So I sort of had like this mental switch. Plus I had two guys that I was in hospital with called Alex and Harrison, who I became like their big sister to, and I devoted every hour, spare hour I had to looking after them. So rehab,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (22:06)

So can I just stop you there for a moment? How much of that was about compassionate tests or was that test trying to find a role to fulfill because you had challenged your own identity as it was previously?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:26)

wonderful question die and the truth is it’s both. That’s the wonderful thing about identity right? It can be two things at the same time. It came from compassion, it came from my heart and I still like love and care for those boys now.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (22:36)

Yep.

 

that came from need as well.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:52)

Yeah, it came from purpose. It came from feeling useful again. Because if I just was sitting in woe is me, my life is, am I allowed to swear?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:02)

Yeah,

 

of course you can. Fucked!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (23:04)

Then I realized that there was tiny things that I could do. could semi use my hands at this point. I could help them Alex clean his teeth. So it just became it just became these little micro moments where I was stacking myself onto these like I could be helpful. I wasn’t like it’s like when they say whenever you think your worst day is is on there’s something even worse that you could be dealing with. So make the most of it. So I just applied that grit.

 

and that resilience to where I was. So I ended up going from just doing one, like helping Alex eat an apple, to then I started running cooking classes for everyone and I’d find out different ways that you could tie a mixer to someone’s hand who had a paralysed hand so that they could cook muffins. So it started becoming part of my therapy and my joy and my light that like I was useful.

 

even in my most useless form.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:06)

Yeah.

 

So when, at what point did you hit that, if I can’t perform, who am I? To then saying, okay, I can now turn this into purpose to help each other. How long into your stay were you before that started?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:27)

It was pretty early on and I remember it. I was lying in bed and the clock on my wall was ticking and driving me insane. I mean hospital bed is pretty dire. Those curtains do not make you feel any better about your

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:47)

self. No they don’t.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:49)

And I popped next door to Alex and I said, is that clock annoying you? He said, I just can’t, I just don’t know what to do about it. So I took it down and I took the batteries out.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (25:02)

Okay, so that prompts my next question because how different does surrendering to your circumstances to be able to move forward differ to actually giving up? What’s the difference there? Because you certainly didn’t give up. You were still being true to yourself even in

 

in saying, I can solve that issue with the and clock.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (25:35)

Yeah, I feel like it just comes from everything I’ve been through and the journey that I’ve been on and that, like to me that is the best thing you can ever do is help someone and to be there for others and to be of service. I knew that to be true throughout my whole life but I didn’t feel that I was worthy of that.

 

or that I had enough to give in terms like I always sort of equated that to be a monetary value. When I was in hospital, it really turned into being my true meaning and purpose at that time was to be there to help everyone around me and to help those boys. And that, and we know this now by all the science, is when you help someone else, really what you’re doing is you’re helping yourself.

 

I didn’t understand the importance of that for my healing journey until I was out and learning about the science of positive psychology and wellbeing. I didn’t realise that it was actually rewiring my brain to feel like to have a mission and vision and purpose is one of the greatest. You need that, you need meaning in your life no matter what it is. And yeah, it was just those micro moments where you put your hand up and say, I can do that. I can help.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:00)

Yep.

 

Yep. And it’s the same in starting power of women. I’m 62. I could retire or I could do something meaningful. Yeah. I’m going to do something meaningful.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (27:15)

Yeah.

 

And thank God you did. Thank God you did. And like it was, there was so many incredible moments in that hospital where like everyone has to leave by 11 o’clock PM. It was actually 9 PM, but it got stretched. And so there’s all of these scary hours of people being alone. But then you wake up at 5 AM in the morning and it’s the same noise, the same sound and the same breakfast for brought to you every day. And the boys hated it.

 

It was the same bacon, eggs, wheat bix and that smell was the triggering thing. Groundhog Day. So I would get up at five o’clock and take the breakfast out of their room. They didn’t have that and that would get me up. So it was like, when I say this just stacked, I was like, okay, I’m going to use this. So that became my superpower. But when I got out die and I lost that, that is when I hit.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:46)

Groundhog Day

 

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (28:10)

the most absolute rock bottom I’ve

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:12)

ever felt. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to move from breakdown to rebuild. you’re loving the Power of Women podcast be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

I’m talking with Tess Brouwer, who for years lived by the mantra, push through, power on, and prove yourself. However, Tess faced into a defining moment when her nervous system was burnt out, her mind was in overdrive, and quite frankly, the wheels simply began to fall off. So in this part of our conversation, we move from breakdown to rebuild, what Tess calls mental fitness.

 

So Tess, the defining moment and the tipping point where you stop fighting and what was, you recognized you needed to reset, that’s where we’re gonna get into this part about mental fitness. But when did you have that moment of going, okay, I’ve got to acknowledge what’s happened and I now need to.

 

take a different approach to what my life looks like. What was the first steps in that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (29:38)

Well, I had a wonderful friend called Lane Beachley. We had met when I was a virgin and like I met a lot of people of all different shape, sizes, importance, all the rest of it. But Lane and I just clicked when we met each other and she came to visit me in hospital and she brought a book in called My Dream Life. And I thought this lady is absolutely out of her fucking mind. I’m in a spinal ward.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (30:06)

This is not my dream life.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (30:08)

Yeah,

 

yeah, but there wasn’t part of me, and I do feel like this was the resilience in me, was I remember looking at a white wall for so long just staring at a ceiling in a neck brace thinking, well, I guess I get to redraw my life. Like I get to, it’s a white canvas. So it put a seed in me. And then when I got out of hospital, like when I say it really hit the fan, like shit really hit the fan for me, it was more like the floor opened up.

 

In hospital, in rehab, you have a schedule every day, which is hour by hour mapped out and you’re working to use your body again. Not so much mentally. I was put on a lot of medication to help me. So anti-anxiety, anti-depression. I was getting like my, had complex PTSD, so I was getting really big flashes and terrors at night. So I was

 

a little bit sedated as well. And so when I got out of hospital, I was 33 living in my bedroom with my parents and I just found myself on the floor just like crying because I’d lost my job, my home, my money. I didn’t even have any clothes at that point. I had a couple of bond sets from and came up because that was just

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (31:26)

because everything was still back overseas.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (31:28)

everything

 

was still back overseas and I really didn’t care. Like I just was like, I don’t care. I’ve got clothes on my back and that’ll do. I couldn’t even imagine wearing normal clothes at that point. And I was just, I wrote one thing in that book and that was start a business. But I thought, how the hell are you going to do that when you, you’d like, you’ve been a corporate girl your whole life, which is safe. And

 

Like could never work a normal job again because I can’t, I now am packaged up as damaged goods in my head. And I remember coming home from a pretty traumatic appointment and it was all to do with my hands to help them work again. And the lady had grabbed me and I just remember looking at her thinking like, you don’t understand what’s wrong with me. Don’t touch me. And that friction was like, is this who I want to be?

 

Do I really want to be that woman? And I got home and I was bawling my eyes out thinking my life is totally fucked. And that was rock bottom. And then I started imagining ways that I could quietly sleep off this beautiful earth. And yeah, that really broke me. And I was, I remember looking out at the headland one day watching the sunrise, just thinking, who do I want to be? You’ve got the choice.

 

I saw a beautiful whale pop up and I just thought you’ve got to do this and I had realized that the story I’ve been telling myself was I’m broken and I’m unlovable and if I keep on telling myself that I will be broken and I will be unlovable So I quick I did a life audit and I saw that what what was that? What was the story? I was just subscribing to was I’m broken. I’m unlovable

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:11)

Yeah.

 

How did you actually do the audit? Was that just in your mind or was that pen to paper?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:24)

Yeah,

 

yeah had no framework. I was doing it on my own and

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:31)

And what were the key things you wrote down in that audit? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:34)

am

 

broken, I’m unlovable, like who is who am I working with, who’s supporting this? Now at the same time I was back at Lane Beechley’s house and I was there with Holly Ransom who you’ll know she’s a power woman herself and at Lane’s house with Kirk Bengeli walking around and their house is like a huge trophy room to be honest and I had my discharge papers of everything that was wrong with me I even published it in our book and Lane

 

I gave it to Holly and Holly read it and gave me a big hug and she’d been in hospital with me and then I gave it to Lane and she read it and she goes, poof! She said, well if you believe all of this bullshit then your life will be fucked. I just want, and if I could rip it up I would.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:16)

There’s the blunt reality check you needed.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:20)

That’s right, love and compassion. But the truth is, when, you call someone out, and this is what I’ve learned about myself in that moment, have the courage and the care to hold them up after. So not,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:34)

You need to know how much they can hear and how much you can be.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:37)

⁓

 

Her lifeline to me was, I have a course that I’m doing by myself in two weeks, which is like her own workshop. I haven’t sold any tickets, like it’s not online yet and I need help designing the course and you’re going to help me do it. And there’s that moment of yes, right? Like take the clock down, take out the batteries. This was saying yes to myself or helping myself. So I just said yes.

 

But I said I can’t work over than an hour, I don’t have any, like I had nothing and she said just go for it. So that was a turning point. I looked at my life and I’m like, what is serving me and what is sabotaging me? And what was serving me was the story of unbroken and ununlovable because I got support, people were behind me, but was it really serving me? No.

 

It would keep me stuck. So I changed my story and in that I went, okay, well what do I need? So I went from 15 therapists down to two and I got one new one and I stayed with an old one and she was really pushing me to go into my pain. You have been running from pain your whole life through drinking, through partying, through clothes, through food, like through busyness, through performance. Like these were all my band aids. And when you’ve lost them all, it becomes

 

very discomf, like the discomfort in that is life changing.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:04)

Do you ever think this accident needed to happen?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:07)

Yes,

 

yes, yes of course it did and if it wasn’t that it would be something else and I think that’s the beautiful thing about the universe is it gives us exactly what we need to wake up and that’s why we call it the awake academy because it was my awakening and if I look back my life I was getting lots of these stones thrown at me I just wasn’t willing to listen yeah I feel like life just then it gets louder

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:19)

Yeah.

 

Yep, and the stones get a little bit more… Bigger? A little bit bigger, I guess.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:40)

Was your face like that? Do you see yours?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (36:42)

I do and I guess just by the virtue of being older and I, but I mean I’ve had some oh shit moments. mean in 1999 I developed alopecia totalis. I lost all of my hair. I was completely bald. I was the height of my corporate powers and I’m wearing a bandana and a corporate suit and it’s like who the fuck am I now?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:10)

Yeah

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (37:11)

But I managed to get headhunted into a GM role in that state. I validated to myself that I could still function, I still had worth. I recognized that I could talk about my plight and talk to children in the schoolyard because children with alopecia in the schoolyard is a pretty tough place to be because you get bullied and teased and taunted. And a bit like you, Tess, of…

 

Okay, if I put some purpose behind what I’m experiencing and use that to help others, then that is going to help me through. it’s exactly the same. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:55)

exactly same pain to purpose.

 

I think the learning point for me was the fight of the cost of fighting the reality I was in like as in trying to downplay it or ignore it or just trying to like I was like a duck trying to swim with it. ⁓ That was more painful than dealing with it. I just couldn’t see it at the time and learning that neuroscience behind how my brain

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (38:14)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:24)

was I could rewire my brain at any time and I started doing Dr Joe Dispenser meditations morning, noon and night and I was just obsessed with trying to rewire my brain and trying to calm it down because it was just in everything was a threat.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (38:43)

Yeah heightened anxiety. So let’s delve into ⁓ this mental fitness bit. What’s the difference between pure grit and toughness that drove you to push through? mean is grit and toughness the same thing?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:46)

Literally.

 

I would say so. mean, they’re pretty loaded words, grit and toughness. I think we overplay resilience to be pushed through, get up, keep going. I think resilience has a fragility to it where you can sit with it and you learn to process it and you rewire your story and you get help and that is resilience.

 

If we turn that into, you’re so tough, you just get up and go, that’s when it becomes almost like a badge of honor. We’ve overdone it.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (39:39)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And, and we use that line as a badge of honor. That’s the madness of it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (39:46)

Yeah, and I think that’s where mental fitness gets a bit clouded or positive psychology and well-being or is that you have to, you know, push through, develop grit, become resilient. That’s not what it is. It’s understanding the truth of what’s going on within the root cause because as you know, emotional pain is one of the biggest causes of stress, injury.

 

disease, like dis-ease in your body, because the body would rather feel physical pain than emotional pain. And we’re very good at going to the gym, working on our bodies, looking great. But where have we put in mental fitness where we can start to use grit as just getting up and going for a walk instead of going for a run? that, you know, there, there’s that stuff. That is the type of language

 

that I love challenging people on. Not in combat, but just what are you associating grit with?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (40:52)

Yeah, that’s interesting. So I know personally resilience, and you’ve touched on it, but resilience can tip into denial. can become your enemy. How do you now define not taking no for an answer in a healthy way without losing that strength of character that is you?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:16)

Yeah, it’s funny, my husband said in his speech that Tess doesn’t take no for an answer, she sees it as a roundabout.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (41:28)

It’s got a softer landing than just not techno for an hour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:32)

Yeah, and I think like the person that I needed to say no to, to be perfectly honest, was myself. And it wasn’t, and maybe that’s the roundabout theory in real life is like pushing through grit, like force. Like I started to apply that mindset. So the mindset that I knew of high performance woman getting shit done, ticking all the right boxes to healing.

 

because your brain can just brings you back to what you’ve always known. So I was trying to do it all, trying to go to every appointment. So was burning myself out in healing. So when I learned what true self love was and what mental fitness and emotional fitness was, was actually saying, no, not now to myself. Like you don’t need to do it all. You need to learn to sit in your pain and discomfort. And then I became aware of that.

 

So that’s when the roundabout came in and it’s like, well, you can’t do all of it, but what’s the something? Like, what would be different about today if you just actually took care of your soul? And that to me was having gentler mornings, not rushing it. And that day is how I rebuilt my life.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (42:52)

Nah, there we go, because it’s going to ask you because I’ve visited Burnout on the podcast on a number of conversations over the last two years and had a terrific conversation, which if anybody listening hasn’t already listened to it with Shanna Kennedy, who was a high performance coach and then burnt out. The difference in this conversation.

 

⁓ is you more than burnt out, you actually broke you, what you, you physically broke. And that’s the, that’s the different bit. So could we get practical at this point in the conversation and for the, for the power of women community for, for a woman navigating a health set back, a career disruption, an identity shift that comes from something.

 

not going to plan and the wheels falling off. What are the non-negotiables in rebuilding that toolkit?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (43:55)

Okay, Di. So first of all, I realised that everything comes from your intentions. So not your expectations, your intentions of who you are and how you want to show up in the world. Now, I knew I wasn’t going to be healthy, strong. All of those words didn’t exist for me. It was, I just want to be sunshine. So I woke up every day and I just made sure I watched the sunrise every day.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (43:58)

I realized.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (44:23)

What would sunshine do? Sunshine can weather all storms, it radiates from within and it just feels good to be around. So I wanted to feel good from within. So if I started there, my day actually became, what can I do to keep my sunshine? Well, I needed to rest, I needed to look after myself. So I would say to everyone, start your day with an intention and your energy will flow from that.

 

energetic beings and we need to be our brains need to tell our bodies what mindset we need that day. It’s not woo woo, it’s neuroscience now. So that would be my number one tip. The side note on that, I met my husband a year later from leaving hospital and the first words he said to me was I am sunshine. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (45:12)

And because you had become somebody people wanted to be around.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:16)

Right. And normally I would have just put my head down and walked away. And yeah, a year later from that day, we were engaged. We got married. We had a baby and having that intent really changed my life. Then I would, and this is something I’ve incorporated because I am entering into perimenopause and I do need to be really conscious of how I feel my body and your brain and your body will fuel on what you feed it. And that includes negative self-talk is as important.

 

to become aware of and to close down as it is for my morning coffee.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (45:49)

Yeah, it’s true. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:51)

So I have a big glass of water with some cracked sea salt to rehydrate my body. And when I do that, I’m drinking it saying, today’s gonna be a great day, show me how good it’s gonna get. And I just have this quiet solitude in my moment. Now, if you’re already doing that, I highly recommend scraping your tongue first thing and cleaning your teeth before you have a drink of water, because then you’re not drinking back down the toxins. That was a game changer.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (46:19)

Yeah, there you go. Not everybody has a tongue scraper in their bathroom, but they should.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:26)

Yeah.

 

We just had Dr. Stacey Sims on our podcast, A Wake Up Call, and she introduced me to a protein coffee. I fasted a lot to help my body heal. And now I’m entering into a season in my life. really need it’s about sustained energy and sustained wellbeing. me. Protein coffee. So you want to have, we don’t want to be in survival mode from the moment we wake up. So fasting works against our hormones.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (46:44)

about a protein coffee that’s

 

Yeah,

 

because that’s fight or flight. Fight or flight? Yeah, cortisol.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:59)

can’t wake up with an egg. ⁓ I like to eat

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (47:04)

I meet my egg at about 11 a.m.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:08)

I just make a coffee and put two scoops of protein in, mix it up and it is delicious and I have really noticed a difference in my energy throughout the day because of

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (47:18)

Yeah, because you’ve kept yourself at a better level. Yeah. But it’s protein start.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah,

 

scheduling breaks. So I look at a lot. I used to look at my diary and say, OK, what needs my attention today? And now I look at it. Where can I build in breaks today? Where am I resting and recovering? Because burnout is a classic. You’re climbing a mountain. You don’t come down again. You just climb the other ones. You’re constantly on peak state. And we we think of that as like maybe a project or a moment in time. But really, if we start looking at that in our day.

 

you start to think, okay, well, how can I build in five minutes here, 90 seconds there, a sunshine break over lunch with no tech, closing my eyes, and start to become aware of what your body and your mind are saying to you. And in those moments of rest, you’re really giving your body time to just close down, decompress, and then you come back with more energy, more clarity, more focus, and at the end of the day,

 

You’re not absolutely late.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:22)

Fucked up. So true. None of these are hard to do. They’re all free. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:31)

They are all free. just need the reminder that this stuff works. I feel like it’s like, it’s so easy to say someone take this pill and it will work. then you.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:43)

But all that’s doing, none of that’s addressing the reason you needed the pill. That’s why I hate that approach.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:49)

Yeah, but ⁓ we did create a Peel Lane and I actually because all of us are experiencing brain fog.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (48:57)

Both

 

of you might be, yeah, in the M word.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:01)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we worked with a chemist actually, and it’s called wake up. So it’s for those days where you really need to be on focus. That aside, what is so important for me now is I know that emotions last in your body for 90 seconds. Anything other than that. it’s energy in motion is emotion. Anything other than that 90 seconds is the story you wrap around it. So for example,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (49:09)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:29)

email or a phone call comes through and you feel that rage you don’t deal with it you pick up your phone and or you talk to a colleague or someone else and you start raging about it how dare this person you start blaming shaming you start the self-doubt and the chatter comes in

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (49:46)

The

 

second starts getting bigger and bigger. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:50)

Now it’s stored now it’s part of your memory now whenever that person sends or messages you your body instantly goes into fight-or-flight Now in the previous days we could just get up and run because it’s a saber-toothed tiger But you can’t do that when you’re making dinner. It’s ask you for the 18th time what’s for dinner and not offer to help Whatever that looks like whatever that rage moment looks like for you So this is a non-negotiable for me is when I feel triggered

 

and it could be sadness, could be anger, could be even happiness is an emotional trigger, is to sit in it and breathe through it. And there’s a breath called the physiological sigh, which is two breaths in through your nose, like short and long, and then a really slow exhale through the nose. And that puts your body from out of fight or flight into your parasympathetic nervous system and calms you down instantly. And it is my absolute superpower and that is emotional.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (50:48)

Same. I learned that some time ago and I can completely change. And I’ll give you a real life example of that when I had my heart episode at New Year’s Day and I had to go in for an MRI and they said, your heart rate’s too high, we’re gonna have to give you a drug to bring it down. I said, don’t, I’ll do it through breath. And they said, no, we’ll need to give you a drug. I said, give me two minutes.

 

just give me two minutes and I had to really push back and in two minutes it was down below 50. They said, how did you do that? I said, breathing. Don’t give me the drug. So it absolutely worked.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:31)

Isn’t that amazing, Di, that you have the awareness to do that, but then you burnt yourself out and ended up…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (51:38)

⁓ I know, know, yeah, deeply intelligent and deeply flawed, both things can be right.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:45)

I think that’s what I’ve learned in this is having logical awareness of things is not the same as being in practice.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (51:53)

No it’s not. And I hear I listen to your story and I listen to other people’s story and then I go and work my ass off seven days a week and repeat it all over again. Why would

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:02)

Why?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:06)

That’s probably what I haven’t answered yet. think it’s ambition, but it might be more than that. No.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:08)

Yeah.

 

Mine was my self-worth. It should be love.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:15)

Yeah, well

 

those two things, ambition and self-worth, are wrapped together in my world and I’m sure they are in many of our listeners’ worlds too. So, we’re pulling that apart.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:31)

So that, just having the awareness of that dies like the biggest part. It’s like asking myself every day, I doing this because I need to feel loved? Because I’m not getting it from within and having the awareness is, then you say no to jobs that don’t light you up, that you’re doing it for.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (52:49)

Yeah. Why? Yeah. So Tess, can I ask you, are you stronger now than you were before the accident?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:01)

I’m softer, some would say I’m just as strong, but I’ve turned that strength into a gentle strength. And that’s been the biggest gift.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (53:18)

And that’s emotional to face into. Yeah it And you probably need to teach me that because the tough gritty facade is our armour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:30)

Yeah, and at what cost does that serve us or you? You know what? Anyone listening? And I know that sustained well-being because now I teach it and I’ve taught it to thousands of people and I watch it with Lane Beechley like she won a world title, two world titles in a state of love and freedom. It’s clear, it’s disciplined, it’s not

 

That level of strength doesn’t make you weak. But the other level of strength which is pushing you is like over questioning, pushing through, comparison, the what ifs, the I should, the could, the would.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (54:13)

I

 

need to get on the couch, seriously, I seriously need to take a dead-hunt myself.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (54:17)

And

 

they’re two totally different operating models. when you, if sustained mental fitness, sustained wellbeing is having those cracks warts and all, and just knowing that you are enough, just as you are, and that no amount of financial money will ever prove that too. So for what?

 

Because when you’re on your ass in your parents bedroom with no money, no car, no home, nothing, and you have to learn to love yourself just as you are, you just become softer.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (54:58)

Yeah, yeah, well Tess, that’s a very, very vulnerable conversation and I thank you for being prepared to share that. I’m going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions as we come to a close today.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:16)

Di, can I just close before you go into the wrap-up? The women listening and whether you’re a parent or not and I just want you to relate to this story. We had a lady who was a very high corporate achiever just like me but you know she I think she had three children and she did our course called On Your Streets and it was a one day live or we’ve got it online through the Awake Academy. Yeah. And

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (55:19)

Yeah, sure.

 

the academy.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:45)

We follow up with people a month later because we don’t want to just be a fry pan. you know when you walk, you don’t come to us and walk on hot coals and you’re liberated from life. It’s real grit, but with tool hits. And I saw her a month later and I said, how are going? She’s like, really good. And I’m working through some stuff and I’m just trying to be a more present mom. And that’s great. Like, you know, that for her, that was what she had realized she had left behind was her presence with her family and loved ones.

 

And that to me was a big wake up call. So I’m like, what is success? Like when you are too busy being busy, you miss the joy and the micro moments and the glimmers. And they’re the things that light you up that that’s what living is. It’s not just going on a holiday every few months. It really is the micro moments every day. And I was fortunate enough to see his beautiful soul another month later. So two months have passed and she gave me the biggest hug.

 

And she said to me, think I’ve found it. And I said, what is it? And she said, my kids said that I’m happier.

 

They said, what have you done, mum? You’re so much happier. You’re there with us. You’re fun, mum. And she was identified as being dictator, mum, because she was tired. And that to me, when we talk about pain to purpose, that is my why. Because I know you can still be powerful, but present and gentle and kind. Like you can still be all those things.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:16)

And I think there’s a simple question in that and look in the mirror and say, I enjoying life? I think it’s as simple as that. Okay, yeah. fire. Rapid fire, here we go. So one belief about success you no longer subscribe to.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

That money buys happiness and because of that output would equal worth so that you have to be doing more to being worthy and then then you get more money and then you’ll be happy.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:50)

A red flag high performers should never ignore.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:56)

chronic exhaustion marked as busyness.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (57:59)

Yes, and the strongest version of you looks like…

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:08)

Sunshine?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (58:09)

Nah, there we go. Sunshine.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:12)

Yeah,

 

just energetic, magnetic, calm, present. Of course I have my wobbles, I am no, by no means perfect, ask my kids. But I think it’s just I have, yeah, grounded sense of who I am and the love I have for myself now, what’s and all.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (58:30)

Yeah, beautiful. Tess, thank you again for sharing. I’m going to put the links to the Awake Academy into the show notes. And will that take them through to a toolkit page as well, if they click onto that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:47)

Yeah, please do. We’ve got a seven day self care, which you can do for free. We’ve got a soul map. If you have no idea where to begin, that’s a good place to start. It’ll tell you where you know who you are and where you need to go. Or we’ve got monthly coaching with the awake collective because people don’t want to do this stuff alone. Or if you’re really up for it, bring us into your business and let Lane and I show you how you can have sustained well-being and happy, healthy people.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (59:16)

Yeah, beautiful ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (59:18)

Can

 

I credit you for something? I just want to honour you for holding space in this emotion that has come up for me today. You too are going through your own challenges and the story resonates back and perhaps that’s why I’ve been so raw and open and honest and you’ve asked such beautiful questions that have given me the gift of reflection. And I know for all the women out there that listen to your podcast and men,

 

is that we’re all looking to find a better way through and an easier way. And thank you for that gift, for allowing me to explore that alongside you as you explore your trauma and pain as well, because there is a better way.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (1:00:02)

Now you’ve made me emotional. Thank you, Tess. That’s beautiful. I’ve spent 30 years in the executive search space interviewing people and learning their stories. I’ve spent two years interviewing on the power of women, and I have learned more about myself in those two years than I learned in the previous 30. So you are spot on.

 

So to Tessa’s point, there are going to be people within your network who would really benefit from listening to a conversation like this. And it might bring up the uncomfortable and it might bring up the emotion, but you know what? It takes that to actually have that inflection point and really face into what’s not working. that simple question that I said, you

 

Are you enjoying life? And if the answer is, if you hesitate, then you’ve got to ask yourself why.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (1:01:06)

Yeah, we’re all just humans walking each other home.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (1:01:10)

That’s exactly right. Thank you Tess. Until next time.

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:02)

Tess, when you hear the words power of women and reflecting on your own experiences, what comes to mind?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:09)

⁓

 

Di, I love that you asked this question and I just turned 40 on the weekend and I you very much. I’ve been thinking about my word and what will it be for the next decade and I anchored on power, believe it or not, and I anchored on that because for me it’s not power I can rule the world, it’s a deep embodiment of who I am.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:16)

Happy birthday!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (00:38)

And knowing that I’ve done the work, that I’ve found my soul, my dark spots, my triggers, I mean, they’re always unfolding. But the power in that when you know yourself, when you start to love yourself again, when you trust in yourself, which I’ve never had that before, and it’s been a long process for me to get there. So I would say it’s like a power for me is a silent self-trust.

 

and a belief in myself that can ride the waves, can ride the storms, and is a really grounded, beautiful force, which is the divine feminine. And so that to me is the true embodiment of power now for me. So bring on power, hey?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:26)

Yay. Brilliant. So what happens when the very qualities that built your success, your drive, your identity, your refusal to stop are actually the same qualities that almost break you? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And if you’re joining us for the first time, what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements

 

of women from all walks of life. And this conversation is about pushing through and ignoring some of the signs. And that is a deeply personal conversation for me because I started the beginning of this year, in fact, New Year’s Day, with having a sign, not quite so sure, deciding to listen to it and spent three days.

 

in a hospital in Melbourne in Australia with a suspected heart attack. Now I am absolutely thrilled to say that it didn’t end up being the case, but what it was was the fact that I had pushed too hard and literally run myself into the ground. So to put some more context to this, I am joined today by Tess Brower, mental and emotional fitness expert, co-founder of Awake Academy with Lane Beachley.

 

And Tess is the former head of brand partnerships at Virgin Australia. And she’s a woman who rebuilt her life after a life-changing spinal and brain injury. Tess was a high performer in the corporate world. There were big deals, big responsibilities, big identity. Then a skiing accident at 32 changed everything. A spinal injury, Guillain-Barre diagnosis, multiple hospital. ⁓

 

visits, a body that wouldn’t cooperate, and a nervous system in overload. So in a conversation today, we’re going to explore how to reset, rebuild, and rise stronger when your identity fractures. Because the reality is for any of us, life can change in a blink of an eye. Tess Brower, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (03:51)

Thank you, Di. When you hear those words being read about you, I’m instantly emotional. I’m instantly back there. Someone said to me the other day, it was actually one of my friends, are you okay? You’re talking about it a lot. And I feel like that’s the true sense of power is, is knowing that it, that trauma and that pain still sits within and you can work through it and you’re comfortable sitting in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:21)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (04:22)

I spent so long ignoring myself, my feelings and my emotions and passing them off as, you know, well, there’s a war going on. Who am I to experience pain? but yeah, thank you for a beautiful intro, but yeah, know that it’s still hard hearing that because I still am in it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:40)

So all of that emotion is going to come through in our conversation today, Tess. And if there is at any point where you want to call a break, you call a break. Thank Because I get it. Yeah. So could we go back, take us back to the skiing accident? What happened? And more importantly, what happened in the days and the weeks after you realized this wasn’t something you could just ignore and push through?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (05:09)

The truth is, is I knew instantly. So I just moved over to Switzerland and I was like first week, new job, skiing day and went up a black run with the team because that’s what you do when you’re a high performance woman who’s out to impress everyone. And a skier went past me. It was a very, very foggy, like white out up there. And I went straight into the side of a ⁓

 

Ice wall because he had to come down the mountain through And Yeah, I lost both my skis slammed headfirst into the ice wall lost the lost both the skis and just I remember going blank and I remember pins and needles shot through my body and then I just the adrenaline just searched and I just got up laughing trying to kind of overcome what was happening in my in myself and

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:40)

because you had no perspective you couldn’t read the ground

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:06)

Deep down I knew, I remember thinking, you’ve done something here. But I had to carry on. I had to do what I’ve always done. I don’t want to be the person that’s in shame or the person that’s the troubled one. I just wanted to click back in and keep going. And I did. And I got off the mountain pretty quickly. I just needed to get away cracking headache and all I wanted to do was go to sleep. And it’s not like me to miss a party day.

 

⁓ And I didn’t want to go to the after party. I just needed to go home and go to sleep now when your identity is wrapped up in your work and For context I had just sold out everything and moved to overseas so

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:51)

So this was a permanent move to Europe?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (06:57)

I’d signed over my residency to Australia. I was now residing in Switzerland. So the mere thought that something was wrong with me and that I would need any sort of form of medical treatment just wasn’t even a concept to me. So I did what I have always done is I carried on. And that looked like for me is pins and needles up and down my hand, loss of feeling in my shoes.

 

I got in my feet, so I got my mum to send over shoes that I loved in Australia because I felt like I had more feeling in my feet in them.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:33)

So you’re already looking for band-aids

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (07:38)

And

 

there was a pivotal moment where I was swimming in Lake Geneva and I was diving through the water and I totally lost feeling in my legs. I remember swimming and I remember thinking, I am going to drown because it’s quite, there’s quite a rapid that goes down there. I’m like, everything in me was get to the edge of this jetty.

 

And I got there and I was holding onto the jetty and I remember thinking, like, if you don’t get up, you’re gonna drown. And like with every ounce of my body, I just pushed myself up and I laid there almost like, you know, when you see a seal flop themselves up onto a jetty and they’re like…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:21)

Yeah, legs working

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:23)

legs weren’t working and I was just thinking.

 

And so I do what most normal people do is you get out your phone and you Google your symptoms.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:34)

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (08:36)

And it suggested that I had multiple sclerosis, which I thought, well, I can deal with that. Now, if you’re someone who has that, I’m terribly sorry for downplaying that. But in my head, it was the easier thing to capture in my brain because it was something that I could, it was a long term issue that I could deal with when I got back to Australia, you know, when I went back there another time, because I just, didn’t know how to deal with that medical system either.

 

second link like obviously I didn’t even speak French and it was so there was a series of these moments die that were just like I look back on myself and I’m like what were you ignoring I was wetting my pants at work and just going to the shops and buying new ones

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:20)

And that was the spinal injury pressing on nerves.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:24)

messing on my nerves and what was happening was because my spinal cord was bruised, compressed and swelling, I was going into spinal shock and I didn’t realize it. And people can do incredible things with spinal cord injury and not know about it. And they can still, you can still experiencing loss of feeling in hands and all of that. They’re quite like in quote unquote normal experiences as you know, with your back.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:49)

I do.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (09:50)

that was spinal shock and then your body’s starting to shut down and and that’s when I went to hospital because I just thought I can’t deal with this any longer and I said to them I hit my head they ignored that and they sent me home with an anxiety tablet. Fortunately I was sent straight back to hospital and the next morning for an MRI and at that point they just said look you’re have to be an inpatient because we’ve got to work out what’s wrong with you there’s something going on so.

 

lumbar punctures, being electrocuted, like actually multiple lumbar punctures which is like possibly

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:25)

Very

 

painful. haven’t had one but I’ve witnessed a family member having it and it was unforgettable.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (10:35)

Yeah, it’s a pain that you can’t explain. And I say this with grace to myself at this moment, but I still didn’t call home. I still didn’t call my mom or my family. Shame. Total shame. How could I have ignored my body? How have I gotten to this point? And I was getting really bad. Like I remember my speech

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:02)

How long is it now since the accident? of Okay. Yes. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:04)

Come on.

 

aggressively getting worse. And

 

then I was an hour away, they decided that I had Guillain-Barré disease, which is sort of like a category that they put me in and thought that’s what you’ve got and you’re an hour away from getting a blood transfusion, it’s time you call home. But we want to do one more MRI to completely make sure that you’re all right. And I went down into the MRI machine and I think it was like my third one because they put dye through me and all of those sorts of potes and prods.

 

And the radiologist in broken English said to me, you hit your head, you hit your head. And I said, yes, like that’s what I’ve been saying. Like I know that that’s when my body changed. You know, that moment, right? It wasn’t dramatic at the time, but I knew that that was the

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:51)

aggressive from there. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (11:54)

And because I was fit and like I just did not have anything like that before that moment. And I said, yeah, I hit my head and he said, you have a spinal cord injury. And I just went bang. And yet the penny dropped and they gave my mom 24 hours to get over to Switzerland. I had to call her and say, mom, I’m okay. But yeah, I’m and

 

Yeah, she got over there and it was one of the most heartbreaking moments ever is seeing my mum walk into the hospital and her daughter is there broken and quite frightened really.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:35)

As was she.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:37)

But I didn’t grasp the high percentage of people who have this surgery. Well, not high, but it’s low risk, but it’s still a high number.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:45)

Anything

 

to do with your spine is scary. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (12:49)

I

 

didn’t realise the risk that you could actually, like it’s millimetres and my spinal surgeon said to me, you know, you’re lucky, you’re very lucky, I’ve seen scans like this and people are totally paralysed. And so yeah, I went into surgery and what I thought was going to be an eight week surgery turned out to be, I went back, I had the surgery, stayed in hospital for two weeks, went back to Australia to recover, which I thought would be eight weeks.

 

I thought that’s okay, I can get back to work. Because again, that’s all I thought about was just getting back, getting back. And I was back at the hospital, I was an outpatient at Royal North Shore Hospital in Northern Sydney, which has got one of the best spinal wards in Australia there. And they, I went in for just a routine.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:37)

and

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (13:43)

meeting I guess with my spinal surgeon and the physiotherapist and like my whole dream team and they just said you need to sit down and we’ve given you, I had another MRI and they said your spine is swelling and the surgery hasn’t worked and you’re have to go have another surgery again. And again that’s when the world shuts down on you and you fall apart because I mean for someone who has

 

wanted to be a high flyer and climb the corporate ladder and have all of this identity, I knew that that would be it. There would be no job, no home, no clothes, no money, nothing. It was all gone.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:21)

You couldn’t see beyond it at that point. was, it was, it was like, we’re done here.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (14:27)

Yeah, that was it. it was like, I truly like there were so many moments where I didn’t realize how serious it was. So even after the surgery, like the second surgery, and just before I went in, it was like 10, maybe 8, 8pm at night, something like that. And my surgeon got called in and he said, Look, I’ve been operating all day, my team are really tired, I’m not going to operate with there’s only one surgery.

 

ward open and I’m not going to do this at night if you don’t absolutely need it.” He said, do you understand? And I said, yeah, I understand. He goes, it’s going to be uncomfortable for you, but we have, like, I have to make sure that your health is number one. And so I went down for the MRI and I came back out and like your worst fears in that moment are realized when you said we’re opening up the surgery, you’re going in tonight.

 

So it was sort

 

of a bit like that, like a snowball that just got worse and worse and worse as time went on. And even more dramatically, like I was getting prepped for surgery and a heart attack came in. So I hope that person survives so badly, but it meant I was then left told that they couldn’t wait, rushed in for surgery only to be pulled out. And then I had to wait for the next slot.

 

which was another 24 hours later because there was another surgery planned. So it was just insane die. then I went very

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:54)

frightening. mean very, very frightening because you don’t know what the prognosis is at the end.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (16:01)

And you can retrospectively look back on these things. And I remember waking up in the spinal ward and them saying, it’s not two weeks here. You’re going to go, you’re like, we’ve got to get you recovered. And then you’re going to ride. And I said, what’s ride? Like it’s a, it’s one of Australia’s best rehab hospitals and you’ll be there for three months. And I just thought, am I living life?

 

Is this me? Is this what I’ve worked so hard to be?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:34)

And I had nowhere near the result, albeit it was a ski accident, but it was in my childhood that came back to haunt me in 2021, which put me in hospital during COVID and put me in hospital for two weeks. And I came out and I couldn’t walk without holding on to my husband’s arm and I’d gone in super fit.

 

And I was at a point in my life where I was going to be fabulous as I approached 60. And I couldn’t walk and I can remember it was late September and I said, I’m going to be back to walking 10 Ks by the December. And I was nowhere near it. And that’s when I was like, I need to take some drastic steps. But I have a, some understanding of what happens when

 

everything suddenly is turned on its head and the simple things in life that we take for granted that are wrapped up in our health and wellbeing suddenly are thrown out and we’re staring down the barrel of an alternative universe that doesn’t look so great. Frightening isn’t it?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (17:53)

Frightening, totally frightening.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:57)

So do you know how much of your identity was wrapped up in Tess Brower, the corporate executive?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:06)

Well, at that point it was Tess Maroney and it was all of it. Every single part of my identity was made up of my work and we laugh about it, but Lane Beachley’s husband is Kurt Pangeli from InXS and he’s, I mean his phone is Tess from Virgin. In fact, sometimes I’ll still have, I’ll email someone and I’ll say, Hey, it’s Tess from Virgin. you remember? Like, cause I still build this like absolute identity that’s wrapped around

 

what you do not who you are and I never went like my mum was a very and is still a very grounded spiritual person but you don’t really want to hear it from mum and I didn’t like

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:37)

Mmm.

 

No,

 

anything that close to home doesn’t land unfortunately.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (18:53)

Yeah, but I realized like I had done like high performance leadership courses and all of those sorts of stuff, but that’s just training you to be a better performer and not a better human. And so I was just, I was lost that if I wasn’t performing, who was I?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:11)

Yeah, if I wasn’t Tess from Virgin, who was I?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (19:14)

If

 

I wasn’t doing a deal or succeeding in something or being invited somewhere, who am I? And a lot of my friends were getting married, engaged, pregnant, second baby, like creating these truly beautiful lives. And that was the gaping hole in mine, was I had no one to hug at night. I had no one.

 

to hold me up out of the shower when I couldn’t walk. Like had my mom and my family of course, but it even accentuated that whole fact that, wow, I’ve given everything to work and now I don’t need that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:00)

Yeah, so can you share with us, and I appreciate this is an emotional question, but can you share with us how that changed or impacted your sense of self? Can you take yourself back and describe what that actually felt like?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:17)

Yeah, I mean like it felt like I was alone in life. No one will ever understand the pain that I’m going through. Now in a ward of 24 beds I was the only walker in a spinal ward. So I was alone there too. I had so much guilt. Survivors guilt.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:40)

because the person in the bed next door couldn’t walk.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (20:44)

Sorry, I tried to check myself out two or three times and give my bed to someone else. And that is true test across my whole life. will give the shirt off my back to anyone apart from myself.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:58)

So you felt like an imposter being in the room? I relate to that. I felt like an imposter when I was in the heart ward at Christmas time because I was sitting up feeling great and the girl in the bed next door had had a pacemaker and the woman across from me wasn’t in a great way. So I get that feeling, but we’re mad. We need to listen.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (21:00)

Totally.

 

We’re mad. And it was the surgeon that said, if you don’t listen to yourself, if you don’t listen to us, and if you don’t put the work in when you’re here, it will be 10 times worse when you get out. And you are here because you need to be here. You’re showing some really strong signs of ⁓ permanent damage. And so this is the time.

 

So then that was a bit easier because I thought, okay, well I’m going to lock in, I know how to perform, I know how to drive myself. So I sort of had like this mental switch. Plus I had two guys that I was in hospital with called Alex and Harrison, who I became like their big sister to, and I devoted every hour, spare hour I had to looking after them. So rehab,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:06)

So can I just stop you there for a moment? How much of that was about compassionate tests or was that test trying to find a role to fulfill because you had challenged your own identity as it was previously?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:26)

wonderful question die and the truth is it’s both. That’s the wonderful thing about identity right? It can be two things at the same time. It came from compassion, it came from my heart and I still like love and care for those boys now.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:36)

Yep.

 

that came from need as well.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (22:52)

Yeah, it came from purpose. It came from feeling useful again. Because if I just was sitting in woe is me, my life is, am I allowed to swear?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:02)

Yeah,

 

of course you can. Fucked!

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (23:04)

Then I realized that there was tiny things that I could do. could semi use my hands at this point. I could help them Alex clean his teeth. So it just became it just became these little micro moments where I was stacking myself onto these like I could be helpful. I wasn’t like it’s like when they say whenever you think your worst day is is on there’s something even worse that you could be dealing with. So make the most of it. So I just applied that grit.

 

and that resilience to where I was. So I ended up going from just doing one, like helping Alex eat an apple, to then I started running cooking classes for everyone and I’d find out different ways that you could tie a mixer to someone’s hand who had a paralysed hand so that they could cook muffins. So it started becoming part of my therapy and my joy and my light that like I was useful.

 

even in my most useless form.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:06)

Yeah.

 

So when, at what point did you hit that, if I can’t perform, who am I? To then saying, okay, I can now turn this into purpose to help each other. long into your stay were you before that started?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:27)

It was pretty early on and I remember it. I was lying in bed and the clock on my wall was ticking and driving me insane. I mean hospital bed is pretty dire. Those curtains do not make you feel any better about your

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:47)

self. No they don’t.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (24:49)

And I popped next door to Alex and I said, is that clock annoying you? He said, I just can’t, I just don’t know what to do about it. So I took it down and I took the batteries out.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:02)

Okay, so that prompts my next question because how different does surrendering to your circumstances to be able to move forward differ to actually giving up? What’s the difference there? Because you certainly didn’t give up. You were still being true to yourself even in

 

in saying, I can solve that issue with the and clock.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (25:35)

Yeah, I feel like it just comes from everything I’ve been through and the journey that I’ve been on and that, like to me that is the best thing you can ever do is help someone and to be there for others and to be of service. I knew that to be true throughout my whole life but I didn’t feel that I was worthy of that.

 

or that I had enough to give in terms like I always sort of equated that to be a monetary value. When I was in hospital, it really turned into being my true meaning and purpose at that time was to be there to help everyone around me and to help those boys. And that, and we know this now by all the science, is when you help someone else, really what you’re doing is you’re helping yourself.

 

I didn’t understand the importance of that for my healing journey until I was out and learning about the science of positive psychology and wellbeing. I didn’t realise that it was actually rewiring my brain to feel like to have a mission and vision and purpose is one of the greatest. You need that, you need meaning in your life no matter what it is. And yeah, it was just those micro moments where you put your hand up and say, I can do that. I can help.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:00)

Yep.

 

Yep. And it’s the same in starting power of women. I’m 62. I could retire or I could do something meaningful. Yeah. I’m going to do something meaningful.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (27:15)

Yeah.

 

And thank God you did. Thank God you did. And like it was, there was so many incredible moments in that hospital where like everyone has to leave by 11 o’clock PM. It was actually 9 PM, but it got stretched. And so there’s all of these scary hours of people being alone. But then you wake up at 5 AM in the morning and it’s the same noise, the same sound and the same breakfast for brought to you every day. And the boys hated it.

 

It was the same bacon, eggs, wheat bix and that smell was the triggering thing. Groundhog Day. So I would get up at five o’clock and take the breakfast out of their room. They didn’t have that and that would get me up. So it was like, when I say this just stacked, I was like, okay, I’m going to use this. So that became my superpower. But when I got out die and I lost that, that is when I hit.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:46)

Groundhog Day

 

Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (28:10)

the most absolute rock bottom I’ve

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:12)

ever felt. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and coming up we’re going to move from breakdown to rebuild. you’re loving the Power of Women podcast be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

I’m talking with Tess Brower, who for years lived by the mantra, push through, power on, and prove yourself. However, Tess faced into a defining moment when her nervous system was burnt out, her mind was in overdrive, and quite frankly, the wheels simply began to fall off. So in this part of our conversation, we move from breakdown to rebuild, what Tess calls mental fitness.

 

So Tess, the defining moment and the tipping point where you stop fighting and what was, you recognized you needed to reset, that’s where we’re gonna get into this part about mental fitness. But when did you have that moment of going, okay, I’ve got to acknowledge what’s happened and I now need to.

 

take a different approach to what my life looks like. What was the first steps in that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (29:38)

Well, I had a wonderful friend called Lane Beachley. We had met when I was a virgin and like I met a lot of people of all different shape, sizes, importance, all the rest of it. But Lane and I just clicked when we met each other and she came to visit me in hospital and she brought a book in called My Dream Life. And I thought this lady is absolutely out of her fucking mind. I’m in a spinal ward.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:06)

This is not my dream life.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (30:08)

Yeah,

 

yeah, but there wasn’t part of me, and I do feel like this was the resilience in me, was I remember looking at a white wall for so long just staring at a ceiling in a neck brace thinking, well, I guess I get to redraw my life. Like I get to, it’s a white canvas. So it put a seed in me. And then when I got out of hospital, like when I say it really hit the fan, like shit really hit the fan for me, it was more like the floor opened up.

 

In hospital, in rehab, you have a schedule every day, which is hour by hour mapped out and you’re working to use your body again. Not so much mentally. I was put on a lot of medication to help me. So anti-anxiety, anti-depression. I was getting like my, had complex PTSD, so I was getting really big flashes and terrors at night. So I was

 

a little bit sedated as well. And so when I got out of hospital, I was 33 living in my bedroom with my parents and I just found myself on the floor just like crying because I’d lost my job, my home, my money. I didn’t even have any clothes at that point. I had a couple of bond sets from and came up because that was just

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:26)

because everything was still back overseas.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (31:28)

everything

 

was still back overseas and I really didn’t care. Like I just was like, I don’t care. I’ve got clothes on my back and that’ll do. I couldn’t even imagine wearing normal clothes at that point. And I was just, I wrote one thing in that book and that was start a business. But I thought, how the hell are you going to do that when you, you’d like, you’ve been a corporate girl your whole life, which is safe. And

 

Like could never work a normal job again because I can’t, I now am packaged up as damaged goods in my head. And I remember coming home from a pretty traumatic appointment and it was all to do with my hands to help them work again. And the lady had grabbed me and I just remember looking at her thinking like, you don’t understand what’s wrong with me. Don’t touch me. And that friction was like, is this who I want to be?

 

Do I really want to be that woman? And I got home and I was bawling my eyes out thinking my life is totally fucked. And that was rock bottom. And then I started imagining ways that I could quietly sleep off this beautiful earth. And yeah, that really broke me. And I was, I remember looking out at the headland one day watching the sunrise, just thinking, who do I want to be? You’ve got the choice.

 

I saw a beautiful whale pop up and I just thought you’ve got to do this and I had realized that the story I’ve been telling myself was I’m broken and I’m unlovable and if I keep on telling myself that I will be broken and I will be unlovable So I quick I did a life audit and I saw that what what was that? What was the story? I was just subscribing to was I’m broken. I’m unlovable

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:11)

Yeah.

 

How did you actually do the audit? Was that just in your mind or was that pen to paper?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:24)

Yeah,

 

yeah had no framework. I was doing it on my own and

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:31)

And what were the key things you wrote down in that audit? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (33:34)

am

 

broken, I’m unlovable, like who is who am I working with, who’s supporting this? Now at the same time I was back at Lane Beechley’s house and I was there with Holly Ransom who you’ll know she’s a power woman herself and at Lane’s house with Kirk Bengeli walking around and their house is like a huge trophy room to be honest and I had my discharge papers of everything that was wrong with me I even published it in our book and Lane

 

I gave it to Holly and Holly read it and gave me a big hug and she’d been in hospital with me and then I gave it to Lane and she read it and she goes, poof! She said, well if you believe all of this bullshit then your life will be fucked. I just want, and if I could rip it up I would.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:16)

There’s the blunt reality check you needed.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:20)

That’s right, love and compassion. But the truth is, when, you call someone out, and this is what I’ve learned about myself in that moment, have the courage and the care to hold them up after. So not,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:34)

You need to know how much they can hear and how much you can be.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (34:37)

⁓

 

Her lifeline to me was, I have a course that I’m doing by myself in two weeks, which is like her own workshop. I haven’t sold any tickets, like it’s not online yet and I need help designing the course and you’re going to help me do it. And there’s that moment of yes, right? Like take the clock down, take out the batteries. This was saying yes to myself or helping myself. So I just said yes.

 

But I said I can’t work over than an hour, I don’t have any, like I had nothing and she said just go for it. So that was a turning point. I looked at my life and I’m like, what is serving me and what is sabotaging me? And what was serving me was the story of unbroken and ununlovable because I got support, people were behind me, but was it really serving me? No.

 

It would keep me stuck. So I changed my story and in that I went, okay, well what do I need? So I went from 15 therapists down to two and I got one new one and I stayed with an old one and she was really pushing me to go into my pain. You have been running from pain your whole life through drinking, through partying, through clothes, through food, like through busyness, through performance. Like these were all my band aids. And when you’ve lost them all, it becomes

 

very discomf, like the discomfort in that is life changing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:04)

Do you ever think this accident needed to happen? ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:07)

Yes,

 

yes, yes of course it did and if it wasn’t that it would be something else and I think that’s the beautiful thing about the universe is it gives us exactly what we need to wake up and that’s why we call it the awake academy because it was my awakening and if I look back my life I was getting lots of these stones thrown at me I just wasn’t willing to listen yeah I feel like life just then it gets louder

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:19)

Yeah.

 

Yep, and the stones get a little bit more… Bigger? A little bit bigger, I guess.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (36:40)

Was your face like that? Do you see yours?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:42)

I do and I guess just by the virtue of being older and I, but I mean I’ve had some oh shit moments. mean in 1999 I developed alopecia totalis. I lost all of my hair. I was completely bald. I was the height of my corporate powers and I’m wearing a bandana and a corporate suit and it’s like who the fuck am I now?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:10)

Yeah

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:11)

But I managed to get headhunted into a GM role in that state. I validated to myself that I could still function, I still had worth. I recognized that I could talk about my plight and talk to children in the schoolyard because children with alopecia in the schoolyard is a pretty tough place to be because you get bullied and teased and taunted. And a bit like you, Tess, of…

 

Okay, if I put some purpose behind what I’m experiencing and use that to help others, then that is going to help me through. it’s exactly the same. Yeah. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (37:55)

exactly same pain to purpose.

 

I think the learning point for me was the fight of the cost of fighting the reality I was in like as in trying to downplay it or ignore it or just trying to like I was like a duck trying to swim with it. ⁓ That was more painful than dealing with it. I just couldn’t see it at the time and learning that neuroscience behind how my brain

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:14)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:24)

was I could rewire my brain at any time and I started doing Dr Joe Dispenza meditations morning, noon and night and I was just obsessed with trying to rewire my brain and trying to calm it down because it was just in everything was a threat.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:43)

Yeah heightened anxiety. So let’s delve into ⁓ this mental fitness bit. What’s the difference between pure grit and toughness that drove you to push through? mean is grit and toughness the same thing?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (38:46)

Literally.

 

I would say so. mean, they’re pretty loaded words, grit and toughness. I think we overplay resilience to be pushed through, get up, keep going. I think resilience has a fragility to it where you can sit with it and you learn to process it and you rewire your story and you get help and that is resilience.

 

If we turn that into, you’re so tough, you just get up and go, that’s when it becomes almost like a badge of honor. We’ve overdone it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (39:39)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And, and we use that line as a badge of honor. That’s that’s the madness of it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (39:46)

Yeah, and I think that’s where mental fitness gets a bit clouded or positive psychology and well-being or is that you have to push through, develop grit, become resilient. That’s not what it is. It’s understanding the truth of what’s going on within, the root cause, because as you know, emotional pain is one of the biggest causes of stress, injury.

 

disease, like dis-ease in your body, because the body would rather feel physical pain than emotional pain. And we’re very good at going to the gym, working on our bodies, looking great. But where have we put in mental fitness where we can start to use grit as just getting up and going for a walk instead of going for a run? that, you know, there, there’s that stuff. That is the type of language

 

that I love challenging people on. Not in combat, but just what are you associating grit with?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (40:52)

Yeah, that’s interesting. So I know personally resilience, and you’ve touched on it, but resilience can tip into denial. can become your enemy. How do you now define not taking no for an answer in a healthy way without losing that strength of character that is you?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:16)

Yeah, it’s funny, my husband said in his speech that Tess doesn’t take no for an answer, she sees it as a roundabout.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:28)

It’s got a softer landing than just not techno for an hour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (41:32)

Yeah, and I think like the person that I needed to say no to, to be perfectly honest, was myself. And it wasn’t, and maybe that’s the roundabout theory in real life is like pushing through grit, like force. Like I started to apply that mindset. So the mindset that I knew of high performance woman getting shit done, ticking all the right boxes to healing.

 

because your brain can just brings you back to what you’ve always known. So I was trying to do it all, trying to go to every appointment. So was burning myself out in healing. So when I learned what true self love was and what mental fitness and emotional fitness was, was actually saying, no, not now to myself. Like you don’t need to do it all. You need to learn to sit in your pain and discomfort. And then I became aware of that.

 

So that’s when the roundabout came in and it’s like, well, you can’t do all of it, but what’s the something? Like, what would be different about today if you just actually took care of your soul? And that to me was having gentler mornings, not rushing it. And that day is how I rebuilt my life.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:52)

Nah, there we go, because it’s going to ask you because I’ve visited Burnout on the podcast on a number of conversations over the last two years and had a terrific conversation, which if anybody listening hasn’t already listened to it with Shanna Kennedy, who was a high performance coach and then burnt out. The difference in this conversation.

 

⁓ is you more than burnt out, you actually broke you, what you, you physically broke. And that’s the, that’s the different bit. So could we get practical at this point in the conversation and for the, for the power of women community for, for a woman navigating a health set back, a career disruption, an identity shift that comes from something.

 

not going to plan and the wheels falling off. What are the non-negotiables in rebuilding that toolkit?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (43:55)

Okay, Di. So, first of all, I realised that everything comes from your intentions. So not your expectations, your intentions of who you are and how you want to show up in the world. Now, I knew I wasn’t going to be healthy, strong, all of those words didn’t exist for me. It was, I just want to be sunshine. So I woke up every day and I just made sure I watched the sunrise, every day.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:58)

I realized.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (44:23)

What would sunshine do? Sunshine can weather all storms, it radiates from within and it just feels good to be around. So I wanted to feel good from within. So if I started there, my day actually became, what can I do to keep my sunshine? Well, I needed to rest, I needed to look after myself. So I would say to everyone, start your day with an intention and your energy will flow from that.

 

energetic beings and we need to be our brains need to tell our bodies what mindset we need that day. It’s not woo woo, it’s neuroscience now. So that would be my number one tip. The side note on that, I met my husband a year later from leaving hospital and the first words he said to me was I am sunshine. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:12)

And because you had become somebody people wanted to be around.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:16)

Right. And normally I would have just put my head down and walked away. And yeah, a year later from that day, we were engaged. We got married. We had a baby and having that intent really changed my life. Then I would, and this is something I’ve incorporated because I am entering into perimenopause and I do need to be really conscious of how I feel my body and your brain and your body will fuel on what you feed it. And that includes negative self-talk is as important.

 

to become aware of and to close down as it is for my morning coffee.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (45:49)

Yeah, it’s true. I get it.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (45:51)

So I have a big glass of water with some cracked sea salt to rehydrate my body. And when I do that, I’m drinking it saying, today’s gonna be a great day, show me how good it’s gonna get. And I just have this quiet solitude in my moment. Now, if you’re already doing that, I highly recommend scraping your tongue first thing and cleaning your teeth before you have a drink of water, because then you’re not drinking back down the toxins. That was a game changer.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:19)

Yeah, there you go. Not everybody has a tongue scraper in their bathroom, but they should.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:26)

Yeah.

 

We just had Dr. Stacey Sims on our podcast, A Wake Up Call, and she introduced me to a protein coffee. I fasted a lot to help my body heal. And now I’m entering into a season in my life. really need it’s about sustained energy and sustained wellbeing. me. Protein coffee. So you want to have, we don’t want to be in survival mode from the moment we wake up. So fasting works against our hormones.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (46:44)

about a protein coffee that’s

 

Yeah,

 

because that’s fight or flight. Fight or flight? Yeah, cortisol.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (46:59)

can’t wake up with an egg. ⁓ I like to eat

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:04)

I meet my egg at about 11 a.m.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:08)

I just make a coffee and put two scoops of protein in, mix it up and it is delicious and I have really noticed a difference in my energy throughout the day because of

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (47:18)

Yeah, because you’ve kept yourself at a better level. Yeah. But it’s protein start.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (47:23)

Yeah,

 

scheduling breaks. So I look at a lot. I used to look at my diary and say, OK, what needs my attention today? And now I look at it. Where can I build in breaks today? Where am I resting and recovering? Because burnout is a classic. You’re climbing a mountain. You don’t come down again. You just climb the other ones. You’re constantly on peak state. And we we think of that as like maybe a project or a moment in time. But really, if we start looking at that in our day.

 

you start to think, okay, well, how can I build in five minutes here, 90 seconds there, a sunshine break over lunch with no tech, closing my eyes, and start to become aware of what your body and your mind are saying to you. And in those moments of rest, you’re really giving your body time to just close down, decompress, and then you come back with more energy, more clarity, more focus, and at the end of the day,

 

You’re not absolutely late.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:22)

Fucked up. So true. None of these are hard to do. They’re all free. Yeah.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:31)

They are all free. just need the reminder that this stuff works. I feel like it’s like, it’s so easy to say someone take this pill and it will work. then you.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:43)

But all that’s doing, none of that’s addressing the reason you needed the pill. That’s why I hate that approach.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (48:49)

Yeah, but ⁓ we did create a Peel Lane and I actually because all of us are experiencing brain fog.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (48:57)

Both

 

of you might be, yeah, in the M word.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:01)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So we worked with a chemist actually, and it’s called wake up. So it’s for those days where you really need to be on focus. That aside, what is so important for me now is I know that emotions last in your body for 90 seconds. Anything other than that. it’s energy in motion is emotion. Anything other than that 90 seconds is the story you wrap around it. So for example,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:09)

Yep.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:29)

email or a phone call comes through and you feel that rage you don’t deal with it you pick up your phone and or you talk to a colleague or someone else and you start raging about it how dare this person you start blaming shaming you start the self-doubt and the chatter comes in

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (49:46)

The

 

second starts getting bigger and bigger. ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (49:50)

Now it’s stored now it’s part of your memory now whenever that person sends or messages you your body instantly goes into fight-or-flight Now in the previous days we could just get up and run because it’s a saber-toothed tiger But you can’t do that when you’re making dinner. It’s ask you for the 18th time what’s for dinner and not offer to help Whatever that looks like whatever that rage moment looks like for you So this is a non-negotiable for me is when I feel triggered

 

and it could be sadness, could be anger, could be even happiness is an emotional trigger, is to sit in it and breathe through it. And there’s a breath called the physiological sigh, which is two breaths in through your nose, like short and long, and then a really slow exhale through the nose. And that puts your body from out of fight or flight into your parasympathetic nervous system and calms you down instantly. And it is my absolute superpower and that is emotional.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (50:48)

Same. I learned that some time ago and I can completely change. And I’ll give you a real life example of that when I had my heart episode at New Year’s Day and I had to go in for an MRI and they said, your heart rate’s too high, we’re gonna have to give you a drug to bring it down. I said, don’t, I’ll do it through breath. And they said, no, we’ll need to give you a drug. I said, give me two minutes.

 

just give me two minutes and I had to really push back and in two minutes it was down below 50. They said, how did you do that? I said, breathing. Don’t give me the drug. So it absolutely worked.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:31)

Isn’t that amazing, Di, that you have the awareness to do that, but then you burnt yourself out and ended up…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (51:38)

⁓ I know, know, yeah, deeply intelligent and deeply flawed, both things can be right.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (51:45)

I think that’s what I’ve learned in this is having logical awareness of things is not the same as being in practice.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (51:53)

No it’s not. And I hear I listen to your story and I listen to other people’s story and then I go and work my ass off seven days a week and repeat it all over again. Why would

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:02)

Why?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:06)

That’s probably what I haven’t answered yet. think it’s ambition, but it might be more than that. No.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:08)

Yeah.

 

Mine was my self-worth. It should be love.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:15)

Yeah, well

 

those two things, ambition and self-worth, are wrapped together in my world and I’m sure they are in many of our listeners’ worlds too. So, we’re pulling that apart.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (52:31)

So that, just having the awareness of that dies like the biggest part. It’s like asking myself every day, I doing this because I need to feel loved? Because I’m not getting it from within and having the awareness is, then you say no to jobs that don’t light you up, that you’re doing it for.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (52:49)

Yeah. Why? Yeah. So Tess, can I ask you, are you stronger now than you were before the accident?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:01)

I’m softer, some would say I’m just as strong, but I’ve turned that strength into a gentle strength. And that’s been the biggest gift.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (53:18)

And that’s emotional to face into. Yeah it And you probably need to teach me that because the tough gritty facade is our armour.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (53:30)

Yeah, and at what cost does that serve us or you? You know what? Anyone listening? And I know that sustained well-being because now I teach it and I’ve taught it to thousands of people and I watch it with Lane Beechley like she won a world title, two world titles in a state of love and freedom. It’s clear, it’s disciplined, it’s not

 

That level of strength doesn’t make you weak. But the other level of strength which is pushing you is like over questioning, pushing through, comparison, the what ifs, the I should, the could, the would.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (54:13)

I

 

need to get on the couch, seriously, I seriously need to take a dead-hunt myself.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (54:17)

And

 

they’re two totally different operating models. when you, if sustained mental fitness, sustained wellbeing is having those cracks warts and all, and just knowing that you are enough, just as you are, and that no amount of financial money will ever prove that too. So for what?

 

Because when you’re on your ass in your parents bedroom with no money, no car, no home, nothing, and you have to learn to love yourself just as you are, you just become softer.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (54:58)

Yeah, yeah, well Tess, that’s a very, very vulnerable conversation and I thank you for being prepared to share that. I’m going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions as we come to a close today.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:16)

Di, can I just close before you go into the wrap-up? The women listening and whether you’re a parent or not and I just want you to relate to this story. We had a lady who was a very high corporate achiever just like me but you know she I think she had three children and she did our course called On Your Streets and it was a one day live or we’ve got it online through the Awake Academy. Yeah. And

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (55:19)

Yeah, sure.

 

the academy.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (55:45)

We follow up with people a month later because we don’t want to just be a fry pan. you know when you walk, you don’t come to us and walk on hot coals and you’re liberated from life. It’s real grit, but with tool hits. And I saw her a month later and I said, how are going? She’s like, really good. And I’m working through some stuff and I’m just trying to be a more present mom. And that’s great. Like, you know, that for her, that was what she had realized she had left behind was her presence with her family and loved ones.

 

And that to me was a big wake up call. So I’m like, what is success? Like when you are too busy being busy, you miss the joy and the micro moments and the glimmers. And they’re the things that light you up that that’s what living is. It’s not just going on a holiday every few months. It really is the micro moments every day. And I was fortunate enough to see his beautiful soul another month later. So two months have passed and she gave me the biggest hug.

 

And she said to me, think I’ve found it. And I said, what is it? And she said, my kids said that I’m happier.

 

They said, what have you done, mum? You’re so much happier. You’re there with us. You’re fun, mum. And she was identified as being dictator, mum, because she was tired. And that to me, when we talk about pain to purpose, that is my why. Because I know you can still be powerful, but present and gentle and kind. Like you can still be all those things.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:16)

And I think there’s a simple question in that and look in the mirror and say, I enjoying life? I think it’s as simple as that. Okay, yeah. fire. Rapid fire, here we go. So one belief about success you no longer subscribe to.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

That money buys happiness and because of that output would equal worth so that you have to be doing more to being worthy and then then you get more money and then you’ll be happy.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:50)

A red flag high performers should never ignore.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (57:56)

chronic exhaustion marked as busyness.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (57:59)

Yes, and the strongest version of you looks like…

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:08)

Sunshine?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (58:09)

Nah, there we go. Sunshine.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:12)

Yeah,

 

just energetic, magnetic, calm, present. Of course I have my wobbles, I am no, by no means perfect, ask my kids. But I think it’s just I have, yeah, grounded sense of who I am and the love I have for myself now, what’s and all.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (58:30)

Yeah, beautiful. Tess, thank you again for sharing. I’m going to put the links to the Awake Academy into the show notes. And will that take them through to a toolkit page as well, if they click onto that?

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (58:47)

Yeah, please do. We’ve got a seven day self care, which you can do for free. We’ve got a soul map. If you have no idea where to begin, that’s a good place to start. It’ll tell you where you know who you are and where you need to go. Or we’ve got monthly coaching with the awake collective because people don’t want to do this stuff alone. Or if you’re really up for it, bring us into your business and let Lane and I show you how you can have sustained well-being and happy, healthy people.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (59:16)

Yeah, beautiful ⁓

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (59:18)

Can

 

I credit you for something? I just want to honour you for holding space in this emotion that has come up for me today. You too are going through your own challenges and the story resonates back and perhaps that’s why I’ve been so raw and open and honest and you’ve asked such beautiful questions that have given me the gift of reflection. And I know for all the women out there that listen to your podcast and men,

 

is that we’re all looking to find a better way through and an easier way. And thank you for that gift, for allowing me to explore that alongside you as you explore your trauma and pain as well, because there is a better way.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (1:00:02)

Now you’ve made me emotional. Thank you, Tess. That’s beautiful. I’ve spent 30 years in the executive search space interviewing people and learning their stories. I’ve spent two years interviewing on the power of women, and I have learned more about myself in those two years than I learned in the previous 30. So you are spot on.

 

So to Tessa’s point, there are going to be people within your network who would really benefit from listening to a conversation like this. And it might bring up the uncomfortable and it might bring up the emotion, but you know what? It takes that to actually have that inflection point and really face into what’s not working. that simple question that I said, you

 

Are you enjoying life? And if the answer is, if you hesitate, then you’ve got to ask yourself why.

 

TESS BROUWER [Guest] (1:01:06)

Yeah, we’re all just humans walking each other home.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (1:01:10)

That’s exactly right. Thank you Tess. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

00:38 Tess’s Reflection on Power and Self-Trust

02:23 Personal Story: From Ski Accident to Medical Crisis

04:21 The Emotional Impact of Trauma and Recovery

05:09 The Moment of Realization and Acceptance

07:24 The Role of Identity in Healing

09:50 Medical Journey and Surprising Diagnoses

12:22 The Power of Support and Connection

16:28 Rehabilitation and Rebuilding Life

20:17 The Shift from Self-criticism to Self-love

24:27 Finding Purpose in Adversity

28:10 Moving from Breakdown to Rebuild

43:55 Practical Tools for Mental Fitness

50:48 Managing Emotions and Breathing Techniques

54:43 Redefining Strength and Success

58:47 Resources and Support for Healing

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Tess at:

Website http://awakeacademy.com.au/

Seven Day Self-Care Program  https://awakeacademy.com/self-care

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/tess-brouwer-7128aa54/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tesscbrouwer/?hl=en

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

Want more fearless, real, unfiltered stories?

 

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

Knowledge is Power When Navigating Menopause

Knowledge is Power When Navigating Menopause

by | Apr 6, 2026 | Female Empowerment, Health & Wellbeing, Managing Menopause

Power Of Women Podcast with Lisa Curry OLY.

For most of her life, Lisa trusted her body. As an elite athlete, discipline and endurance were non-negotiable. But perimenopause brought a different challenge. One she was not prepared for.

Emotional volatility. Anxiety. Irrational reactions. Sleep disruption.

Her internal question was blunt:

“What the f*ck is wrong with me?”

At the time, no one was talking about perimenopause. Doctors weren’t naming it. Women weren’t comparing symptoms. In this conversation, Lisa shares how hormonal change affected her identity, relationships, mood, and confidence, and why women do not have to wait for symptoms to escalate before becoming proactive.

 

➡️You’ll Hear :

  • The emotional impact of hormonal change
  • How perimenopause affects identity and relationships
  • Why pushing through can backfire
  • The role of inflammation, alcohol and sugar
  • The four pillars of self-care [SELF]: Sleep, Exercise, Lifestyle, Food
  • HRT, natural therapies and informed choice
  • What post-menopause feels like

Lisa now supports over 1.5 million women through hormonal education and community.

Her message is practical and clear:

Hormonal change is not a flaw.
It is biology.

Work with it.

➡️Lisa’s key learnings:

💡Track your symptoms before they escalate
💡Don’t dismiss sleep disruption
💡Understand your options: HRT, natural, integrated
💡Remove accumulated neglect
💡Every decision today impacts your future health.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT- LISA CURRY TALKING WITH DI GILLETT ON THE POWER OF WOMEN PODCAST.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:02)

Lisa, when you hear the words power of women, what’s the first lived experience that comes to mind?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (00:11)

that comes to mind is everything that I’ve done in my life feels like a stepping stone to where I am today and every stepping stone matters.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:24)

What happens when your body suddenly stops responding the way it always has? When exhaustion, weight gain, anxiety, sleep disruption and emotional volatility become everyday feelings. And you guessed it because we are going to talk about menopause. I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement

 

of women from all walks of life. And this is where we have intelligent, grounded conversations about women’s authority, health, leadership, and lived experience without minimizing sugar coating or outsourcing agency. My guest today is Lisa Curry triple Olympian, Australian sporting icon.

 

and co-founder of Happy Healthy You, one of Australia’s trusted women’s health platforms. This is Lisa’s story, her perimenopause and menopause journey, and together with Jeff Butterworth, Lisa has helped build a platform that now supports over 1.5 million women, not just with supplements, but with education, assessment, and informed choice.

 

Lisa Curry welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (01:48)

Thank you so much, Di Thanks for having me.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (01:50)

Lisa, you’ve had to trust your body for most of your life as an elite athlete and a mother and you truly understand discipline and resilience, particularly in that elite sporting framework. What were the signs that something had fundamentally shifted?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (02:12)

You’re right, I did have to trust my body a lot as an athlete. And I understood every feeling that I had because there are days when you train, you feel great. And there are days that you train and you don’t feel great. But in sport, and particularly in elite sport, you learn to push through. When your coach says you have to do 10 more, when you’ve only got one more in you, you do 10 because that’s what’s required. And you can’t go to the Olympic games, you can’t go to three Olympic games.

 

without that dedication, that motivation, that work ethic of pushing through. And yet at the same time, for my last Olympics, I was also a mother, a mother of two little girls. And there were times when I tried to recreate that feeling of pushing through like I did as an athlete in motherhood. And I realized that I couldn’t do it.

 

It was too hard. had nothing left. And so when I finally retired from my sport and then I had another baby as well. So three kids at that point, I was working, I was still training because I was trying to keep myself in good shape. My body started to change, but more than my body, my mind started to change. So my emotional stability started to crack.

 

And I kept thinking, am I allowed to swear on this?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (03:44)

You can swear on this because it’s a swearing sort of topic.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (03:49)

Because I was thinking what the fuck is wrong with me. I really thought that I was going crazy my poor husband, you know, he copped everything and Physically, I felt pretty good except you know every fifth day before a period I would just lose my shit about any single thing but more than that emotionally and intelligently I felt there was something wrong. I thought there was something wrong with me

 

I couldn’t put my finger on it. couldn’t work it out. was an absolute cow. ⁓ I was a bitch. went to my doctor to find out what was wrong with me. No one, we’re talking back in the 1990s now, no one was talking about this. Not even the doctor could say to me, it sounds like you’re perimenopausal.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:38)

I don’t think we even knew the word peri-many-pords.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (04:40)

No, no, we didn’t and you know if he had said that like they sometimes do today you you’d say what what is that what what’s all about we didn’t know the word menopause because my mum used to talk about it but menopause when you’re 30 menopause feels like it’s for old women yeah and old women i’m talking 50s and 60s and of course now that we’re over 50 and 60 that’s not old right so

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (05:02)

Yeah.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (05:10)

You just think there’s something wrong with you, but I remember going to the doctor and he wrote me out a script for a maid and a massage. Now, I think that was his way of being funny, but it almost trivialized my feeling about everything. And I came away from that thinking, I still don’t know what’s wrong with me.

 

And so I think it really affected my relationship with my husband at the time. You know, was, it was volatile. And at times, you know, I was irrational, moody, angry for seemingly no reason. The weight gain wasn’t a thing for me back then because I was training so much still. ⁓ but it was the, the reactive emotions that I had that really caused a lot of tension, ⁓ in the home. So did you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:05)

think it all though being being an elite athlete and being driven and focused did you actually recognize the mood swing change or did you just put that down to the sort of fire in the belly that you had as an elite performer?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (06:22)

No, because I was very in control of my emotions when I was training, as you have to be. ⁓ But I didn’t realize that my outbursts were happening every month. Because in those days, you didn’t track those sort of things. I I tracked everything in my sport, every single thing that I ate, my sleep, my vitamins, my training, my times, how I felt, every single thing. And my coach would write in my log book every single week, but I never tracked.

 

my feelings and thoughts and emotions. And then when I stopped training, just, I felt lost. I felt almost hopeless. I felt heavy and I felt almost invisible because there was so much going on in my life. And it’s the same with women these days. You know, my daughter’s going through it at the moment. She hates the thought that she’s probably in early menopause.

 

I keep saying to her, I’m really sorry my sweetheart, but I think you are. ⁓ But when you have three young kids and a husband and you work and you’re trying to have some sort of a life, the last person that gets any sort of hope or clarity or energy is yourself. And then therefore your symptoms become worse ⁓ because deprivation of sleep is

 

one of the main causes of a lot of things that happen in your life and being a busy working mom, it’s hard to say, just sleep more because there is, yeah, when exactly there’s this invisible load that mothers have and it’s not just about looking after the kids or the family or going to work. It’s about, I’ve got washing to do.

 

What’s on the weekend? Have I got the lunchboxes? Have I got the food for dinner tonight and for the lunches tomorrow? Who needs a washing uniform? Where are we going? How are we going to do that? I need? Constantly and even at night time you’re thinking about all the things that you need to do for the day and your husband says just go to sleep. like your wish. I wish I could just go to sleep. You know my husband now he’s like he closes his eyes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:26)

instantly on.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (08:44)

30 seconds later I’ll say babe remember we’ve got to do this tomorrow he says I was asleep I said what you just you just closed your eyes how could you possibly be asleep but you know it’s that invisible load that that busy mums have to deal with every single day while they’re going through perimenopause

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:06)

I wonder how many divorces, if you could strip it back, actually are caused as a result of menopause and a lack of understanding of everybody in the household as to what that involves. I don’t know that there’s been any stats done on that, but it would be high. It would have to be high.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (09:28)

It would have to be and I distinctly remember times where I would scream at my husband and then find myself curled up in a ball, crying, saying to him, you don’t understand, you don’t love me. And I remember the look on his face. It was like almost fear, but who are you? And then the next day I was fine.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:55)

Yep.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (09:56)

So it puts a lot of stress, I think, in a relationship. But I truly believe now that we know all of this. And I speak about this often when I’m talking to groups of women that if they feel like they’ve got these symptoms coming on, that it’s really important to sit down with the whole family and talk to them about it, talk to them about the symptoms, how you’re feeling, how you react, particularly to your husband, and what you need from them.

 

So sometimes you don’t need anything to be fixed. You just need someone to come and give you hug and say, it’s gonna be okay. We’ll get through this. Just take a deep breath. Let me rub your head for you. I don’t know, some simple things that husbands or partners can do. And when kids know that mum is being moody or irrational, not necessarily little kids, but as they’re old enough to understand, you know, they can probably help a little.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (10:52)

That’s so true and it’s such a generational shift Lisa because I do not ever remember and our household was probably not one that was open about emotions and I don’t think I hugged my parents until I married my European husband who was all about kisses on each cheek and all of a sudden my mother got on board. I do not remember her talking about

 

menopause at all. can remember her becoming tricky but we didn’t talk about periods either. mean the approach to periods was something was put on the top shelf in a cupboard from BTUs which was a bag of period pads. Nothing said, no instructions, no conversation. And by the time I was of an age where I felt that I wanted to talk to my mother about menopause she was suffering from dementia.

 

So completely missed opportunity. How do you find we’re going to approach that? I mean, you’re having that conversation, as you said, with your daughter now. Is that a quantum shift in what is happening now generationally around perimenopause and menopause?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (12:13)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think now that we know more about it, it’s so much easier to have those conversations with your daughter, with your granddaughter. And I like to call it, ⁓ there’s two things I talk about. One is the relay of life. So what, and I try and make that ⁓ analogy through my sport, but the relay of life is like the young 10 year old who gets her period.

 

what she knows about herself what she’s going through she will hand the baton to her 18 year old self and that 18 year old self will learn more about reproductive systems in the body and how to deal with school and university and relationships and work and The way that she develops in that time she will pass that baton onto her 30 year old self and then the 35 year old and it goes on and on until you reach postmenopause so I’m 63 now and

 

Then the next part of that, where I talk about the long game, the long game is like, um, well, might, go back. I’ll say, I want to go to the Olympics. So you just don’t go to the Olympics. You’ve got all these steps. So when you’re finally at the Olympics, it started way back. We started 10 or 15 years ago. And so the long game is about trying to be proactive as you grow up through the stages of life so that you can have

 

a great ⁓ third phase of your life. say for example you want to divide your life into three phases. You’ve got you know from zero to 30, 30 to 60, 60 onwards. So that 30 to 60 phase I call midlife which my daughter doesn’t like because she said mom I’m not in midlife. you kind of are.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:04)

She thinks of you as midlife and doesn’t want to reframe that. Yes.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (14:09)

So what you do in each stage affects the next stage. if we can get the information to ⁓ women, to girls, to be proactive with their prevention of the severity of the symptoms that may or may not come, then it will help everybody. And when I say that, there are some people who really struggle with their symptoms. There are people who kind of, you know,

 

up and down like I was and then there are people who just breeze through it. So everybody is different. But my biggest thing that I want people to take away from this and when I speak to women is that knowledge is power. If you can get the knowledge about being proactive about your life and the fact that hormonal change is

 

biology. That’s all it is. It’s your body doing what it’s supposed to do. So you don’t want to interfere with what it’s doing, but you want to work with your body. You can’t beat it. You can’t beat your biology, but you can work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:17)

Yeah and I talk about Lisa that that you know having the the willpower to push through can be the the characteristic or quality that makes us great but it can also be our biggest you know biggest detriment too because that ability to push through and and not listen to the signs not listen to our to our bodies is is where we can find ourselves in in trouble. How do we

 

How do we resist if we are inclined to go, I’ve just got to keep going, I’ve just got to keep going, I’ve just got to keep doing things? How do we resist that urge? How do we give ourselves the, and I know it’s an overplayed word, but how do we give ourselves permission to actually address that and listen?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (16:07)

Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things there. ⁓ Firstly, I don’t feel like we should try and override what our body is trying to do naturally. I think we need to learn to work with what’s happening in our body. And when we understand that hormones are just messengers, they’re telling us, they’re telling our bodies something. mean, when you think about perimenopause, it’s when your body starts the transition to menopause.

 

it’s giving you all these symptoms, are messages. Whether or not you listen to those messages is up to you. If you understand that they’re messages, your body’s talking to you, your body’s telling you something. So I tell people you have to listen to what your body’s saying before it starts screaming at you because you don’t want to delay thinking.

 

about what the symptoms are trying to tell you. You want to start to recognize them as they happen and say, okay, I am kicking the cat. I love my cat, but I’m kicking it every month. Why? Why am I doing that? Why am I being a bitch to my best friend when I’m not like that? Why am I getting upset because my husband leaves those funny socks on the floor? Why are these things happening?

 

And when you start to question what’s going on in your life, ⁓ you can start to understand why it’s happening. So hormonally things are changing, they’re shifting, they’re fluctuating. It’s what your body is doing. So as women go through perimenopause, if they understand that their body is fluctuating, it’s all going all over the shop, it makes it easier to be able to find solutions for that.

 

So don’t try and override it just to work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:02)

I’m talking with Lisa Curry Australian sporting icon and co-founder of Happy Healthy You and coming up proactive steps women can take before menopause symptoms escalate.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

Lisa, one of the most important messages you share is women don’t have to wait. And I think we touched on it earlier. We kind of think of menopause as this something 40, sort of 50, 50 years and beyond. But what does proactive perimenopause awareness look like, especially for women your daughter’s age and many of our children’s age in the 30s and 40s?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (18:59)

It’s recognizing that something feels a bit different and it then reflects having a think about what your hormonal patterns might be and to try and start tracking them. Once your sleep starts to be interrupted, once you start feeling anxious for no reason,

 

Once you start biting people’s heads off for no reason, that’s not you. That’s your body doing something. And I think if you can start tracking your symptoms, and once again, I’ll go back to swimming days. We used to write down every single thing we felt all our times. We were tracking everything, but no one ever taught us to track our feelings or our outbursts or our happy days or our bad days.

 

When you see that they become a pattern and they’re cyclical, ⁓ then you can understand how it’s connected to menstrual cycles and all the ups and downs that you have.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:12)

So you’re actually in the education side of what you’re doing, educating people to track that so that you can actually identify the rhythm and the pattern within that?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (20:24)

We talk to people every day. once again, ⁓ it’s out in the media at the moment. No one’s talking about perimenopause. No one’s talking about menopause. Well, we have been for 12 years, right? This is what we do. We’ve had over one and half million ladies download our online hormonal assessment. So if anyone wants to know where to start, that’s a great place to start.

 

And then we have our Facebook group page that has over 203,000 women in one page. So we’re talking to them about it every single day. yeah, last night ⁓ one of my staff members put a post up and some of the responses were, they were really sad to be honest. I thought about it a lot before I went to bed and went to bed thinking these poor women.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:58)

That’s a community.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (21:17)

but they’re not alone. They’re not the only ones going through that. And within our group, they understand that they’re not alone because sometimes when you’re going through something, grief of some sort, and it’s not just about grief of losing someone, it’s grief about losing your own identity. Who was I? Who am I now? And in response to some of these people who are feeling really down, ⁓ you know, we can talk about all the

 

solutions that we provide to people. And one of them, I mean, I’ve always said, sometimes the cheapest counseling is a $5 coffee with your friends, you know, and you go and you talk about it. ⁓ But bottling everything up does not help. Absolutely doesn’t help.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:05)

What’s your view on identifying and acknowledging menopause in the workplace? Is that a positive thing if it’s recognized as part of our health and wellness journey?

 

You know, in the day to have period pain that was debilitating, you couldn’t even talk about that because that was seen as a weakness as an employee. So what’s the view on menopause and perimenopause interrupting our ability to do our daily jobs?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (22:40)

Yeah, look, I find this a really tough question. And I find it tough because they try to implement a ⁓ period leave.

 

Now, I understand why and I understand people can’t get out of bed sometimes because their periods are so bad. But in saying that, imagine, for example, an airline or a hospital where you’ve got hundreds and hundreds of female staff, each wanting five days off per year. That equates to thousands and thousands of days.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:18)

cost a fortune.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (23:22)

I understand, and this is why it makes it tough, I understand that people have debilitating symptoms, but I understand that life still has to go on for work, all right? We need to work, we need to pay the bills. And so in the past, before we knew about the idea that we could maybe take a day off work, we just sucked it up and we just did the job. We went and did our job as well as we could.

 

and then come home and fall apart at home. ⁓ So it is a tough question and I get it, but I also see the the business side of it, which makes it terribly difficult for businesses if all their female staff just keep saying, I’ve got to have days off because I’ve got a bad period. And some people actually do have really bad periods and some people would take advantage of that and just say they have a bad period.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:17)

Yeah, and it’s also creating another subclass of pushing back on potentially promoting women too. So there could be a whole roll-on effect if that is not implemented and acknowledged appropriately in the workforce.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (24:36)

Yeah and and this is where we really like to talk about prevention before things become a crisis.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (24:44)

Yep. So what are some of those steps if we look at managing our body versus being educated? Tell us why the understanding of body is key to managing that hormonal transition. What information does that provide us?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (25:04)

And I think being managed means being managed is being told what to do without understanding why, but being educated, you know what’s happening in your body, you understand your options, and therefore you can make informed choices. And I think that’s really important because when you’re educated and when you understand, and it’s like having, it’s like people having those light bulb moments.

 

They read something or they listen to something they are right now I know now I know why I feel like I feel and that is empowering. And when you’re empowered you feel confident enough to say I know what I need now.

 

Sometimes you know what you need, but are you prepared to do what you need? Because life gets in the way, life gets busy. You know you should sleep seven, eight, nine hours a night. You know you should exercise. You know your lifestyle should be good and you know you should eat well, but are you doing it? So that’s my little acrimony is to, that’s my four pillars of health is to look after yourself. Self, S-E-L-F.

 

Sleep, exercise, lifestyle, food. So if you ask yourself those four questions each day, what’s my sleep like? Have I exercised? What is my lifestyle like? Have I eaten well today? Four questions. You can start to see that there’s a bit of a pattern. You can start to see, well, no, I’m not exercising. I only ate well for a little bit of the time. ⁓ My lifestyle, ⁓

 

hate my job, I’m in toxic relationship, I don’t do anything in my spare time, I sit on the phone, scroll all day, I’m not doing anything worthwhile. And I stay up all night watching series and sleep for five hours and then I’m a moody bitch at work the next day.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:12)

You probably just described half the population, ⁓

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (27:17)

Sorry. That’s the thing. We’re all adults. If I wanted to be blunt like my coach used to be to me sometimes, he would say, we’re all adults and we all have a choice. You can have the choice of accumulated neglect every single day or you can have the choice of repetitive good habits every single day. It’s not about being perfect. It’s about doing

 

It’s like the 80-20 rule. It’s about doing things right most of the time.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (27:49)

Yeah, I know in my own world, Lisa, I ⁓ beat myself up about this a bit because I do wonder whether I could have ⁓ made my own menopause journey a little easier. I’m not saying it was the worst of journeys. However, I have been a lifetime sugar addict and I satiated that addiction pretty…

 

generously over the years and I was fish and I was healthy and I was not obese but I had a lot of sugar. I gave up sugar two years ago, processed sugar and with that comes giving up a whole lot of other processed foods that have a follow on effect but I do feel that a lot of the symptoms that I attributed to menopause were probably the symptoms of

 

having a high intake of sugar, inflammation, blood sugar, go on and on and on. But I think, so to your point about self, whilst I ate well most of the time, I probably balled it up with all this sugar that I’d have grazing at my desk until late in the evening working and everything went out the window as a result of it.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (29:11)

Because it’s not just one thing that you have to focus on it. You’ve got to look at the holistic picture Right and there’s there’s so much more to it and you’re right. It’s the inflammation in the body is a massive driver of hormonal imbalance so if people are really honest with What they’re doing every single day Then they can start to see

 

Okay, I can improve here. I can improve here. That’s okay. I can improve here. So I liken it to, ⁓ I talk about this in my speeches too, about people having their jigsaw puzzle in front of them and it’s their life jigsaw puzzle. And if they don’t like their life, if they don’t like how they feel, throw out all the pieces, throw them all out and then only put back the pieces that makes your life the one that you desire. And

 

you leave the sugar out. All right. You leave whatever you want to leave out of it. But two years ago, I quit alcohol as well. And I just realized that I know I remember saying to myself one night, my God, Lisa, if nothing changes, nothing changes. I know that that’s what I tell people all the time, but I wasn’t applying it. Yeah. And so I thought this has got to stop. I was having probably

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:28)

to saying it.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (30:34)

You people might think that’s a lot or not a lot, but probably two or three wines a night. One, one, you know, when I was cooking dinner and then two with dinner or after dinner. But if you start to add it up, it’s a lot

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:48)

It becomes a lot. Yeah, I think we’ve come to understand there is no good amount anymore. I think that’s that’s where we’ve got to

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (30:57)

It’s amazing because now if I have a wine and I do have one every now and again, gee, can taste it. And if it’s a shit wine, you go, it tastes like meth. It also goes straight to my head. So it’s, it’s interesting. So yeah, like just, just think about your jigsaw puzzle. Think about your life. Think about what you want in your life to make the best possible outcome for you as you move through the phases of your life so that when menopause finally comes,

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:07)

Was it worth it?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (31:25)

And then you’re in post-menopause for the rest of your life, you’re an empty nester, the kids are gone, they’re looked after themselves. You can start to travel, you can start to do everything that you’ve wanted to do. You’re free. I call it the freedom years. You know, to be able to do it. You haven’t worked all this time to be exhausted by the time you’re 60. You know, you’ve got to work so that you can live, not the other way around. So by the time you’re in that third phase in your life,

 

You are free to be who you want to be, go where you want to go, do what you want to do.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:02)

And health and wellbeing is the piece that underpins all of your ability to do that along with financial stability. But if you’ve got your health as the saying goes, if you haven’t got your health, you’ve got nothing.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (32:14)

That’s right, yep. So every decision you make today, and it’s never too late to start, every decision you make today is going to benefit you in the future.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:25)

Yeah. Lisa, the debate between natural therapies and HRT or doing, taking nothing for it’s been raging for years and I know there’s been misinformation that has come out and that has been amended over time. What does an integrated evidence-informed approach look like for managing HRT or menopause?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (32:53)

depends who you talk to. So if you speak to a doctor, you will get a different answer than if you spoke to an integrative doctor. And then you might get another answer if you spoke to a natural practitioner. So my whole life, I’ve always tried to always go the natural way. It’s just the way I am. think because

 

I think mainly because I saw what my mum went through and she had a pill for this, a pill for that, a pill for that and then she had all the side effects and then they gave her more pills and I used to see them all lined up and I thought, my God, I never want to be like that. So I’ve always gone the natural route. So we have a really great protocol on our website at the moment about people who are on HRT and what their options are. So

 

I’ll try and explain it this way. So HRT is one option and it works fantastically for some people. ⁓ HRT is one option and I can call that the quick fix. And then I have a medium term fix, which is like a combination of HRT and natural supplements. So that’s, and that’s where we come in. We have a really great approach to that and a great protocol for that on our website.

 

The third approach is a longer term approach, which is the natural supplement approach. It takes longer. You’re not going to get that quick one week fix. It’s going to take three, four months for everything to kick in until you start feeling normal, calm, and balanced again. And then there’s another approach of what I call the self fix, which is you don’t take anything, but you really look after yourself. You eat well, you exercise, you do everything, and you’re very educated and you know exactly what you need to do.

 

So that’s a choice. there’s four choices. There’s four options there. Now, if I take that one step further, there’s, I think, like three different types of women. The first type of woman is the one who, at the moment, feels down, hopeless, completely desperate and struggling. She doesn’t know where she’s at. Everything’s overwhelming. She’s burnt out. She’s lost herself. She doesn’t know where she is.

 

The second type of woman is someone who’s really trying hard, you know, she’s trying to eat well, she’s trying to exercise, she’s trying a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but maybe she’s not being consistent enough to see results. And then the third type of woman is someone who’s really got their act together. So they know exactly what they need to do, they eat well, they exercise and they feel great. So when you, and I don’t know maths very well, but you’ve got four options here.

 

three different types of women but when you interact those options and those types of women there’s a lot of different options.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:54)

There is and I imagine we dip in and out of, you know, can be one option but you dip in and out of one of the others at different points and times or different days.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (36:04)

And

 

depending what’s happening in your life, you might go from that number three lady to the number one lady because you’ve got some grief in your life and then, you know, something, the HRT doesn’t work or the natural supplement doesn’t work or the combination does. There’s so many different options, but at least today we have options. At least today, we in my company, HappyLFU, we have solutions for people. We’re really proud of that. We have a lot of people who have had such great results.

 

And we know that because we have so many ladies within our groups taking our products, we know. We don’t think, we know. Having over one and half million ladies download our online assessment, great research. And it’s just over 20 % of the Australian population of women who are in perimenopause and menopause. So we know our statistics, we know what ladies need and want.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:49)

Good research base.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (37:02)

We polled our ladies in our Facebook group page and asked them what their main symptoms were and the top three were sleep, anxiety and weight gain. So we know that ⁓ those symptoms are the primary symptoms and we make products to suit those symptoms. So we pretty much have something for everyone. ⁓ We know that women are passing their products over to their

 

husbands as well. They’re getting great results. we don’t think we know.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:36)

They have mood swings too.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (37:38)

They

 

do, they do. But you know, I think the great thing for us is we don’t think we know what we’re talking about. We know what we’re talking about because we’ve been doing for 12 years. My business partner, he’s a hormonal specialist. All my staff are amazing, highly educated practitioners and people should feel safe with us.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (37:47)

It’s evidence based.

 

Yeah, yeah, that’s brilliant. How many in the organization Lisa, how many people do you employ?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (38:07)

  1. Some are contractors, some are full-time, part-time, but we are a remote business. By being remote, we can choose the best around Australia and around the world. We have people all over the world.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:23)

Having spent 30 years in executive search, used to pitch that as options rather than having to compromise based on only selecting the person who was available right in your market. I think COVID cracked that thinking wide open because all of a sudden it became possible.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (38:43)

That’s what makes us different to everyone else as well. We have a team of practitioners who are talking to and working with our ladies every single day. And for women in our Facebook group, it’s free of charge. They don’t have to pay hundreds of dollars to go and chat to a naturopath. We provide that for them.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:06)

So tell me as a 62 year old female, do the post menopause symptoms phase out and disappear over time? Where to from here for you and I? ⁓

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (39:21)

I

 

don’t know if you meant you’re 62 but I’m 63. There you go. I don’t feel it though.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:26)

Well I’m 62.

 

No, neither do I. Absolutely don’t.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (39:35)

I

 

think once menopause is over, which is 12 months for no period, done, the symptoms that you had leading up there don’t just stop, they linger. They continue and they linger and they finally start to peter off. Now, depending on how you looked after yourself in the previous phases will depend on how long or how severe those symptoms will continue. So for me now, ⁓

 

If I’m moody or cranky, my husband will say, have you been taking happy hormones? And I’ll say, no, you’re actually just giving me the shit. So there’s a difference, right?

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:16)

That’s not an excuse for your crabby behaviour. No, I know.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (40:20)

No, he’s gorgeous. But every now and again, I’ll get a hot flush. So I’ve just been over in Quebec and Canada. It was minus 30, minus 20. And at some point I’m like, oh my God, I’ve got to this jacket off. And just all of a sudden I had a hot flush. And usually now I know if I’d had a wine, I get hot flush. If I have too much coffee, I get a hot flush. So now I can see the absolute relevance with what I just had.

 

to what I’m just getting now. So ⁓ I think another side effect of postmenopause is your tolerance for bullshits.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (40:50)

No.

 

post-murder pause or is that just age?

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (41:05)

No, I don’t know. there’s a couple of things. I feel much calmer. Things that used to bother me just don’t anymore. I don’t care. I mean, if someone wants to do that or say that, you know what, it says more about you than me, I don’t care. And I’m able to move on. before, I’d be really reactive and I wouldn’t lie, it would sit with me for a long time. But I’m happy to know and feel

 

that all the symptoms that I’ve had for the last 20 years are finally just settling down. And that’s what happens. Everything settles down. So there is light at the end of the tunnel for all the women out there who are tearing their hair out, feeling like there’s something wrong with them, which is there’s nothing wrong with them. It’s just what your body’s doing. It’s just biology and you will get through it. Take a breath. Everything will be okay.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:00)

Beautiful. Lisa, I’m going to throw three quick questions at you if I could to bring today to a ⁓ conclusion. One thing you wish you’d known five years earlier.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (42:16)

⁓ One thing that I wished I’d known five years earlier was what was coming and I think like I’ve said it’s I mean I didn’t exercise physiology at uni and if everybody could do a course in a semester in biology they would understand. It’s all biology, it’s what your body is meant to do so don’t fight it just work with it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:43)

Yeah, it’s so true. One symptom women often dismiss, but they shouldn’t.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (42:49)

I think the big one knowing how we polled so many women is the sleep. I think if you can, once again, it’s really hard with, you know, moms that have got kids and work and sleep is the biggest thing. But if you can just try and prepare yourself for sleep at nighttime by making sure the room is cool and dark, even if you sleep in a separate room where there’s no noise or disruptions. I now wear an eye mask and I find that’s a lot better.

 

but just feeling that peace and contentment as you go to sleep. Everything’s done. I’m write my list so it’s not in my head, which I often did. I learned that from my mom. Everything for today has been done. There’s nothing more that I need to do today. So just take a breath and feel content that my day has finished.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (43:32)

Yep.

 

Yeah and to your point about the sleep I must admit even now Lisa I still find some nights I wake up and I’ve got a leg sticking out the side as my temperature control mechanism just to get some air on my foot so I don’t know whether they’ll ever go away or not.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:02)

I

 

I’ve worked out the pajama situation. I think if you wear a singlet top and just undies, like don’t have longs on your legs. And I think that I think I’ve got the combination right. So yeah, cause you can just put your arm out, but your legs aren’t hot. So ⁓ I put the air conditioning on my husband said, it’s not that hot. I go, you’re not me. So he’s like snuggled up in the blankets and, ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:12)

Yes.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:31)

But he says, come over here, know, come in for a cuddle.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:35)

last

 

thing you want to do because it makes you too hot.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:38)

Ten seconds like, okay babe, love you but you know, you’re too hot, too much body heat.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:45)

I can relate to that and I suspect there are many listening who will relate to that.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (44:50)

But I think to have a laugh about it every now and again because if you don’t laugh about it, you’re going to cry.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (44:59)

Now Lisa, do we find you? Because you mentioned there is ⁓ some online tools that people can jump on, on your website I presume, and access those.

 

LISA CURRY OLY [GUEST] (45:11)

Yeah, so the website is happyhealthyew.com.au and on there you’ll find a huge range of resources. But the main one is to download the online assessment. So that’ll give you a really good snapshot of where you are at this point in time. If you follow some of the things that we talk about, you can do that assessment again in six to 12 months time and see if symptoms have changed a little bit. Obviously we do have support, we have products that have been

 

proven to be really great for a lot of women. And then we ask people to join our community. there’s 203,000 women in one group. We have about six or seven different groups. So we’ve got a group for PCOS and endometriosis. We’ve got a teenage group. We’ve got a happy reset group, happy weight group. So there’s different groups of different subsets of people. But the main one is our happy, healthy new community. And I’m in there.

 

All our staff are in there. talk every single day. you know, we just want to, that’s, you know, I think if I had to summarize what I stand for now, going back to what we spoke up, spoke about first up was my whole life has been like a stepping stone to where I am now. And now I’m that woman who has, who has turned my lived experience into

 

light for other women. I’ve walked the path and now I walk beside women and help them along their way. I wanna see people I wanna see women stand on their own dais. I wanna see ladies stand up and go I did it. I feel I made I did it. You know I achieved this or I did that or I changed this or I went there or changed my life. Standing on your own dais

 

And it doesn’t have to be a huge achievement, but just even small achievements add up to make you feeling that life is worthwhile and life matters.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:15)

Yeah and that’s exactly what Power of Women is about because it’s through the lived experience and sharing of that through storytelling that we can offer resourcing to others be it mentoring formally or informally and that’s not to say that you don’t have to go through something to truly understand it but there’s loads of lived experience out there to be gleaned from others and I think we’re far more inclined

 

to share that now rather than to have all of these no-go zones of things that we don’t talk about. And that’s the benefit of hindsight and how lucky are we? We can actually access that. Thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa. I’m gonna add your website details onto the show notes. Be sure to follow the podcast and if you think this is an episode that somebody in your network can benefit from,

 

Pass it on, share it to them, bring it to their attention. And in terms of subscribing and following so that you know what fabulous next episodes are coming because there is a string of extraordinary guests in the lineup for 2026 and I look forward to sharing them with you. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 The Power of Women: Introduction to Menopause

03:09 Lisa’s Journey: From Elite Athlete to Menopause Advocate

06:05 Understanding Perimenopause: Signs and Symptoms

09:06 The Emotional Toll: Relationships and Mental Health

11:52 Generational Shifts: Talking About Menopause

15:02 Proactive Awareness: Tracking Hormonal Changes

17:58 The Importance of Community Support

20:58 Menopause in the Workplace: Challenges and Solutions

23:51 Managing Symptoms: Education vs. Management

26:55 Lifestyle Choices: The Jigsaw Puzzle of Health

30:06 Navigating HRT and Natural Therapies

32:53 The Future: Post-Menopause Life

36:04 Final Thoughts: Empowerment Through Knowledge

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Lisa at:

Website https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/

👉Women begin by completing a free online hormonal health assessment at: https://happyhealthyyou.com.au/pages/assessment

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lisacurry/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/licurry/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

Want more fearless,, informative and unfiltered stories?

 

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

Playing Professional Cricket with MS

Playing Professional Cricket with MS

by | Mar 23, 2026 | Champion, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders, Health & Wellbeing

Power Of Women Podcast with Jemma Barsby explores what it takes to compete at elite level while living with multiple sclerosis.

Diagnosed at 19, Jemma has built a professional cricket career without missing a game. In this episode, she speaks openly about managing fatigue, adapting preparation, navigating anti-doping protocols, and advocating for MS awareness.

This is a conversation about leadership in women’s sport, the realities of pay disparity, and the discipline required to build a career that works with your body rather than against it.

 

➡️You’ll Hear :

➺ The moment Jemma realised cricket was her life

➺ The pay gap realities in professional women’s cricket

➺ What MS changed – and what it didn’t

➺ Heat management, recovery and pre-cooling strategies

➺ Drug testing and navigating athlete medical protocols

➺ Why vulnerability builds respect, not weakness.

 

Jemma is raising $6 million to fund Australian MS clinical trials though her Whack MS for 6 campaign.

You can donate to Jemma’s cause here:
👉https://www.mycause.com.au/page/385730/whack-ms-for-6

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:00)

doing stats. how are you thinking of launching? You’ve just got three or four points you want to make.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (00:09)

Well yeah, I pretty much just went off your examples. So the three, yep, the three examples,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (00:13)

Yeah, perfect. Perfect, Yep.

 

And then what I’ll do is come in and introduce the podcast. And then when I come, when I actually throw and say, you know, welcome to the welcome to the podcast, Jemma, then then we’ll start the the Q &A. One question that I didn’t have in the run sheet that I’d love to ask you and probably should have put in is ⁓ professional athletes are held to

 

know, high standard on what you’re allowed to consume and those sorts of things. Can I ask you about that in relation to managing MS and is that a juggling act? Is that something I can touch on?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (00:57)

Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah. That’s the end. wish you all.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:01)

Because I mean, if we think about, God, it was 1986 that we only turned around and said PRP is blood doping and hey, it’s got major advantages. So I’m sure it’s a general interest question just in terms of how you manage that. beautiful, beautiful. Well, I’m in your hands. You can fire away whenever you’re ready and I’ll…

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (01:21)

Yeah, yeah, no, easy done.

 

You

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:31)

I’ll follow in after you.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (01:33)

Yep, sounds good.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:35)

Okay.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (01:36)

I ⁓ women when I feel heard and respected. I believe that everyone has a voice. ⁓ My purpose in life is to help people in the sporting arena and people living with MS.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (01:57)

Thanks, Jemma. Now you’ve got a puppy dog in the background.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (02:01)

Yeah, of course she just went off then,

 

so… Do you need me to redo them?

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (02:05)

That’s all right.

 

No, no, no, no, we’ve got we’ve got enough of a gap and I’ll do mine. What does ambition really demand over the long term? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

 

And through revealing lived experience, it becomes a chorus of wisdom that makes sure women are seen just not for what we do, but for who we are. And today’s conversation is one of those conversations that sits right at the intersection of performance, ambition, and endurance. My guest is a leader in Australian, let me do that piece again, Daryl. My guest is a leader in Australian women’s cricket.

 

performing at an elite level in a sport that continues to fight for parity while asking its athletes to deliver excellence. Her name is Jemma Barsby. Jemma’s career is a study in endurance, physical, mental, and professional, and it’s shaped further by the realities of living and competing with MS, multiple sclerosis. This is a conversation about what it takes to show up.

 

week after week at the highest level. And she’s already a winner in my book, Jemma Barsby, Welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (03:40)

Thank you, thanks for having me. What an intro.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (03:43)

Jemma, what was the inspiration behind the decision to play cricket and why cricket?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (03:53)

Yeah, it’s a good question. I asked this quite a lot. I was very fortunate to grow up in a cricketing family. my dad, Trevor Barsby, played cricket for Queensland for quite a number of years. And he was a part of the first shield win for Queensland, which was now 30 years ago, which is pretty incredible. So I think it was just from being around his games and just from a young age, was a picture of me picking up a

 

instead of getting a photo with dad for his last game, it me going for the cricket ball and just had the eyes for it. So was pretty much since I could walk that I kind of had… ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:29)

There’s

 

the competitive streak right out the gate.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (04:34)

Yeah, going for

 

the ball, not wanting a photo or whatnot, just going straight for that ball to get it into my hands. yeah, it was kind of like pretty, yeah, pretty, like I said, pretty much since I could walk, there was definitely no pressure from mom or dad to go down that path of cricket. And they wanted me just to fall in love for it for my own reasons. And yeah, I just naturally did that from going from backyard cricket to starting at the local club in Brisbane.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (04:37)

Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (05:02)

playing under sevens with the boys and then following that through to under 17s and then heading over to the women’s side of things from there. So yeah, I was pretty much from the get-go, got straight into cricket.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:10)

If.

 

Wow, so how old were you literally when you picked up that ball?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (05:20)

or I was this white haired little girl, I probably maybe like three maybe? Yeah, so I was just like, yeah it was pretty much, yeah, probably I could pretty much walk.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:28)

Yeah, wow.

 

And are you an

 

only child or have you got siblings?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (05:36)

I’ve got an older brother and a younger sister. So my brother played a couple of games for Queensland as well. And ⁓ my sister, I think, one season, but says she never played cricket. So she’s the real girly girl in the family. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (05:52)

There you have it. So who was the inspiration? Was it dad or was it more than that?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (05:59)

⁓ yeah, when I always get asked this question, I always like, I always try and I guess think of someone, but I probably necessarily didn’t really have anyone, but obviously, yeah, it was great to see. Yeah. Yes. I probably, yeah, I probably should say it was dad and just, guess what he was able to achieve during his career and even how he went about his, ⁓ style of batting is very aggressive. ⁓ everyone that I spoke speak to.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:08)

You know he’s listening. You know he’s hanging out for you to say it’s him.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (06:24)

about the way when he played his cootie, was like, he wasn’t there to muck around, he’s got on with his business. So yeah, I loved that about the way dad went about it. And I think that’s where I probably enjoyed watching the likes of Matthew Hayden, Adam Gilchrist go about the way they batted because they were very aggressive and took the game on too. So they were probably the people growing up that I liked to watch playing.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (06:49)

Yeah, and were they your heroes?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (06:52)

⁓ I wouldn’t necessarily say heroes, but I did enjoy watching the way they went about it. I ⁓ probably didn’t really have any heroes growing up. I kind of just liked to watch the game for what it was and just kind of went about it my own way, ⁓ the way of playing. So yeah, wouldn’t say I necessarily had any heroes growing up.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:15)

Outside of cricket, were there others that you looked to on the sporting arena though?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (07:22)

⁓ outside of cricket, ⁓ not necessarily. did enjoy just, think, ⁓ probably just like our backyard career with my brother. And we had a few of his mates, ⁓ stay with us over the years growing up because I was from the country. So when they were playing state cricket, ⁓ they’d come down for competitions and stay with us. So it kind of then, guess that competition of playing with guys three years older than me and my brother that it kind of, ⁓ built that resilience into me of, ⁓

 

not being able to get them out or they’d get me out first ball and then go and crying so to mom and dad so it taught me a lot of lessons growing up too so yeah was good fun.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (07:52)

Yeah.

 

I too grew up with Brothers One in particular who was highly competitive and achieved on the sporting stage and all of my resilience with a capital R came from that childhood and the experiences of really survival. So I can get it.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (08:16)

You

 

Yes, yes. Yeah, I can, yeah, it

 

helped me. Yeah, it helped me in my underage with the boys as well, because obviously myself and then I was very fortunate to have another girl playing my side from pretty much all the underage from up to 17s where we play with the guys. you kind of obviously once you got to the under 17s with them, they obviously grew and started having their growth spurts and becoming into a man. So they started to grow and I stayed the same height. So it was definitely.

 

good learning curve and built that resilience up as well playing against them and the under 17s where I was just getting bounced the whole time while was batting but yeah it was cool.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (08:54)

Yeah.

 

So was

 

there a female league at that stage under 17 or was playing with the boys your only option?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (09:09)

Um, yeah, probably back with, yeah, when I was in and around there, was mainly just playing with the boys. Like that was obviously women’s cricket, but I was still, um, quite young to be playing women’s cricket. So they didn’t really have any actual women’s sides or girls sides growing up. So yeah, it was just myself and another girl playing yet all underage. So it’s only been probably the last, or maybe 10 years that there has started to be an all girls teams coming through. So yeah, that’s exciting that they are then.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:21)

Mm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (09:39)

having full girls teams and actually playing against the guys still as well.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (09:39)

Mmm.

 

So were there mentors for you as you made that transition ⁓ from a 17 year old into starting to pursue this endeavour?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (09:57)

Yeah, definitely. think the one that stands out for me is, it was obviously a really crucial time for me. I used to bowl medium pace, but I obviously stopped growing and quite short. a gentleman called Paul Pink, which unfortunately he’s not with us anymore, but he, I remember he was a selector for the Queensland Fire, which is the state women’s side. And he pulled me aside and was like, if you want to get any further with your cricket, I think you should.

 

go to ⁓ spin and he took me down to the nets for a few sessions and taught me how to spin bowling and yeah, have massive credit to him to be able to, I guess, have that effort to take me down to the nets to teach me a whole new skill and ⁓ then to, I guess, do that for probably six months and then get picked in the Queensland side. Yeah, forever thankful for him for his time and effort to, I guess, pursue that opportunity for me.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (10:54)

And for you, do you see the role of mentor being an important role that you’re gonna play for the generation coming in behind you?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (11:04)

Yeah, absolutely. And I would be the first to say that I forget about doing that sometimes too, or I forget that I am a role model to the younger ones coming up. And it’s not until they say a couple of things or when we do our culture sessions at the start of the year. And I remember one of them goes, yeah, I look up to you and I was like, kind of just, I guess, stopped me in my tracks. I was like, yeah, right. Like I forget that, yes, they’re my teammates, but they also look up to me and ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:20)

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (11:33)

watch everything that I do, how I train, how I go about it, even in and around games. So yeah, it’s pretty surreal still and getting used to that, but ⁓ I find I’m very fortunate that I’ve seen it from being non-professional to guess for me being a hobby to now being somewhat professional. ⁓ It’s been pretty cool and I definitely would not change that at all.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (11:42)

Mmm.

 

Yeah. And you just mentioned somewhat professional. I mean, what’s that step between somewhat professional and your pure focus?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (12:11)

Yeah, so I do do cricket full time. Well, ⁓ sorry, not necessarily full time, but it is my job. But we’re classified as point eight. So we’re not officially full time. Yeah, it’s really silly. Very silly. But ⁓ yeah, so that classifies us as not. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (12:15)

Yeah.

 

Point eight, where are you in life? Point eight, that’s, I mean, that’s

 

a little bit grating. How does that land?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (12:35)

Yeah, it’s annoying. Like, and that’s probably the thing that we’ve, I guess, fought for, for number of years. Like, yes, it’s very good that the women’s pay has gone up over the years and that we are like, that I am able to do this now solely. But then when you compare it to the men and where they’re at, we still have that massive gap, even at the, the way up to the Aussie level. Like say, for instance, I don’t know, like, but the Aussie captain is on millions of dollars where the Aussie captain at the women’s sides.

 

on maybe a couple hundred thousand, like that difference is still huge and that goes, flows all the way down. So it’s, I guess it’s respecting, yes, our position has gone up and it’s got better, but we still also have a long way to go as well. And we need to continue to push those barriers down to make it as equal as we can.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (13:24)

Can I ask, is it ⁓ realistic and is it possible to survive as a ⁓ professional cricketer with, in the absence of significant sponsorship deals in place or is it only through the marriage of that and the remuneration that you can truly make a fist of it?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (13:47)

I think it depends on this with crickets, obviously cricket in general is very confusing as a sport, but then you add contracts on that as well. And there’s two different contracts. So there’s obviously the state based one, which is all year round. And then you got the WVBL one, which is you play that for two months. So there’s two contracts. So yeah. So if you have two contracts, would say, yes, you’re able to live on that. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:07)

You got a couple of jobs. Yeah. Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (14:17)

depending obviously how good you are because the contracting ⁓ scale is quite high. But then some people in our state side only have the state contract so they’re then quite well below other players. So it’s them trying to, guess, manage and negotiate but that’s mainly a lot of the younger girls. So they’re probably still fortunate that they’re living at home and have that access. So I think we’ve only got one girl who’s a rookie which is then even lower but she’s, well she had just completed school so.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:22)

Mmm.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (14:47)

⁓ Yeah, the variance is still quite high even within the state system.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (14:53)

Yeah. So did seeing women play at a high level spur you on or was it regardless of seeing that and being able to follow that yourself?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (15:06)

Yeah, was probably regardless of that, to be honest, didn’t really growing up, I didn’t really know, or we didn’t have the access to what we do now of watching women’s cricket. I didn’t really know the pathways or where like, yeah, that there was really an Australian side. Like it was kind of, wasn’t until I got older ⁓ that then I started to realize that there is a slight little pathway into negotiate down that path. So yeah, obviously growing up, I didn’t really know that women played.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:09)

Mmm.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (15:36)

create for Australia or for the state. yeah, I was kind of just doing it for the love of it to begin with. then that’s probably, yeah, once I got older, realized that it is a path that you could could go down.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (15:43)

Mm.

 

So what was that tipping point Jemma? What was the tipping point of playing it out of love versus realising this could seriously become your full-time focus?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (16:00)

Yeah, well, I was very fortunate. I debuted for Queensland at the age of 15, so I was still in school at that time. So I was juggling. remember I was, it was, we used to play T20 on the Friday afternoon and then play a one day, a Saturday and then play T20 on Sunday morning. So I’d go to school for up until lunchtime on the Friday and then go play cricket ⁓ pretty much Friday afternoon, Saturday, Sunday morning, have the pretty much Sunday morning off.

 

I mean, sorry, Sunday afternoon off and then go back to school Monday. So it probably wasn’t until ⁓ maybe even a few years down the track out of school when it actually started to, the pay started to increase and whatnot that I could actually do that as a full-time job. Cause I used to, ⁓ I love my coffee. I used to work in a cafe. So I’d go in between the two of cricket training and working at a cafe. And it’s probably only been maybe the last.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (16:32)

Mm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (16:56)

Probably four years that I have like actually not worked in a cafe and just done this so it’s probably I’ve been within the last four years to be honest

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:00)

you

 

Yeah, wow. So from school picking up the hospitality gig to sustain that and bridge that gap. Yeah. Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (17:15)

Yeah,

 

yeah. was, yeah, obviously still living at home and everything then too. um, yeah, the, the little, I guess, pocket money of the games that we used to play. think my first contract was maybe like $500 and that was for the season. I was, yeah. So, yeah, not many women were living off that back when I first started.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (17:29)

Yeah ⁓

 

No, no, that’s quite the thing. Well, you’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and I’m joined by Australian women’s cricketer Jemma Barsby. And coming up in the conversation, we’re gonna talk about what really fuels Jemma’s ambition and how she prepares, competes and thrives whilst managing MS. That’s just a break in recording, Jemma. So that will do. Excellent.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (18:03)

So good.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:06)

So early on, were you driven by more the love of the game or was it the competitiveness that you learnt in the backyard that fuelled you?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (18:18)

⁓ I’ve actually recently done my strength profiling, obviously being a leader within the side, SACO have been very good at letting me expand in my leadership side of things and my number one ⁓ strength came out was competitiveness. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:21)

Mmm.

 

What was next?

 

What were the top three? Competitiveness?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (18:45)

⁓

 

Then I used humor and then so that also humor is good but it also gets me in trouble sometimes when I take it too far. You know me too well already. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (18:54)

can also be deflection, could also be deflection. yeah. Okay, so yeah. Number three,

 

what was the third one?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (19:07)

Oh that is a very good question, I’ve gone blank. what was… Yeah, I’ll have to… Yeah, that is a very good question. Yeah, I’ll have to…

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:10)

That’s alright.

 

Let’s circle

 

back. Tell me about when humor’s got you into trouble.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (19:21)

⁓ so many times when I don’t process what my mind’s thinking for then it to come out of my mouth. It’s the bit where it like comes out and then it’s like that part where you just want to like put it back in your mouth because I’ve used it.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:27)

you

 

I do

 

that all the time. I say it’s an Aries trait. I’m not sure what star sign you are, Jemma.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (19:38)

I’m a Libra. Yeah, it’s yeah, it me dirty. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (19:41)

Okay, okay.

 

Yeah, I mean, my standard line is, you know, I’ll speak now and apologize afterwards. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. So, yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (19:59)

I know and you think yeah

 

the older you get the more like you have time to filter it but now that I’m 30 I’m still making the same mistake so it’s like the girls just look at me and go you’re still making I’m like yeah I apologize and then yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:07)

you

 

not going to stop. I’m over 60, Jemma, and I’m still doing it. So you’ve got years to go. So good luck with that. So could we get on to ⁓ your journey with MS? I know you’ve spoken openly about living with that.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (20:14)

Yeah ⁓

 

It’s good to know that then.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (20:36)

What’s the impact having multiple sclerosis has on your training and how you prepare every week?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (20:44)

Yeah, yeah. So I’ve had it for about 10 years now. So I’ve been able to deal with it quite well. But I guess with MS, it’s the big unknown. Each day is different. I could wake up completely fine, go through training like there’s nothing wrong with me. there’s ⁓ days where I get really bad fatigue and have to, guess, chill out a bit. Or I get pins and needles and whatnot. know recently in the WBBL just gone, we had a hectic travel schedule. ⁓

 

and went through, yeah, it was pretty much really the play, we’d get on a flight. We went down to Hobart, so then it was obviously the Melbourne, well Adelaide, Melbourne, Melbourne to Tassie. And of course, like our flight got delayed, so I was like waiting around, and then that was a Sunday, and then the Monday I woke up and I had just had like, I was so fatigued, I was like, I was meant to go to training and stuff, and I was like, no, like I can’t get out of bed, so I was just laying ⁓ in bed all morning. ⁓

 

But it’s, guess like when I do have those bad days, it’s like that fighting of obviously I’m a very active person as well. So it’s like, okay, getting that rest in, also vitamin D is important to keep moving as well. So try and get out and get some fresh air and get some sun onto you. Just to, I guess, try and lye them back up.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:00)

That’s one of ⁓ the key supplements, isn’t it, for MS is vitamin D.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (22:06)

Yeah, it definitely is. that’s where I guess very thankful playing cricket. In the summer, I get a lot of vitamin D.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:12)

I was going to say,

 

yeah, so in actual fact, there’s a fantastic marriage of being outdoors and in the daylight and a natural way of addressing some of the symptoms.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (22:26)

Yeah, definitely. That’s where, yeah, very thankful that I’m able to still play cricket and it helps me get out and, ⁓ yeah, get some sunshine, but also food plays an important part too. So it’s just making sure that I’m, making sure that I’m fueling myself properly. And yeah, I guess I noticed that when I’m having, ⁓ if I have a couple of binge days or unleash a few days, like you can just know, feel a bit off. So it’s just, yeah, making sure that I fuel myself well in and around games, but also in life as well.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (22:37)

Mmm.

 

You mentioned that your diagnosis was about 10 years ago. Was there a period of time in the lead up to that that you had symptoms that you didn’t know what they were before MS was actually diagnosed?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (23:16)

No, I had none whatsoever. ⁓ yeah. No, not that I even noticed. So it wasn’t until like, yeah, the tips of my fingers went all numb for about three weeks post. I get, yeah, post like the weekend that I was invited into the Aussie camp, bowl. That’s when I had, yeah, sore shoulder and all the tips of my fingers were numb and numb for weeks. And then that’s when I decided to say something. like, this is, this is a bit weird that my tips of the fingers are numb and have been for weeks. So, ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:19)

⁓

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (23:45)

I voice up and say something. I guess within the sporting realm and also cricket, we’re very fortunate to have such quick access to MRI scans. So yeah, we were straight into getting an MRI scan from there and yeah, that’s pretty much how I found out.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (23:57)

Mmm.

 

And how did that land at the time? For you.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (24:09)

Yeah, it was very overwhelming. I didn’t know what MS was. It was, I was kind of like, okay, like cool. When she told me, ⁓ but then it wasn’t until she was like, started telling me to still have my career, like my goals and aspirations. That’s when I knew it was something serious. And I did the silly thing of, ⁓ Dr. Google straight after. Yeah. Recommend. Yeah. I don’t recommend because like the first things I saw was.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (24:30)

Dr. Google. Of course you do. We all do. Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (24:38)

in a wheelchair, life’s not great. And I was like, oh, like that’s probably when it hit me. And I was like, okay, this is something pretty serious. And I remember, yeah, like walking out of the doctor’s, just absolutely balling my eyes out. Cause I was just like, I’ve just pretty much started my career career. I’m 19. I’m about to like live, go live my adult life. And to be told this, it’s like, what’s next? And I remember it was the Thursday afternoon and then,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:02)

Mm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (25:05)

not seeing the neurologist till the Monday. So being in that limbo of those days of being told you have an amnesia, but you’re just like, that was it. And you’re like, okay. And it wasn’t until saw the neurologist on the Monday to, I guess, go through it all and ask all the questions that I could. So yeah, was definitely, definitely overwhelming. And yeah, it was just taking it day by day from those next couple of months after that.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:31)

So what have you had to adapt in terms of your physical and mental prep to ensure that you can perform at your best despite this being in the background?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (25:45)

Yeah, I find I’ve been very fortunate even though I have got MS that I’ve been able to play every game. I have not missed a game, Touchwood with Kruget. Yeah, with it. So yeah, I’ve been very fortunate. Obviously I have days where I wake up or I’ve got, have, I guess like little relapses throughout the game because of the heat brings symptoms on. it’s, it’s been smart. used to obviously being that young kid, just try and fight through it and be like,

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (25:53)

That’s amazing. Wow.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (26:13)

I’ll be fine. ⁓ Just head down. Yeah, that’s probably been the big learning over the years is actually to listen to my body and trying to tell me something when it’s, ⁓ I guess, yeah, having a bad day. So to rest and and to be open with the coaching staff, because I remember those definitely days throughout ⁓ pre-seasons or even trainings where I’m just like, I’m nowhere like the body’s starting to react.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:15)

Yeah, you’ve learnt a lesson.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (26:41)

And I try and push through where now I’m like, no, I’ve like I’ve got to say something or else will go on for days. So Yeah, I’ve definitely got better

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (26:49)

And

 

that’s a big deal, Jemma. Let’s just talk about that because I mean, you’re in a competitive space, you’re competitive by nature. We’ve already established that. How have you come to accept this degree and this level of openness without it feeling like it’s a bit of a leg rope that’s holding you back? Because that’s not easily done.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (27:19)

Yeah, yeah, don’t get me wrong. definitely still have, I fought that big time where I’m just like no power on, but yeah, but ⁓ I think it’s also, it just shows that if you’re open in you and you’re honest and you have that trust and that relationship with the coaching staff, then ⁓ they’re more willing to listen and being brave. think that’s as soon as you’re willing to be open and be vulnerable and be like, no, I need to have a

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:25)

I bet you do. Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (27:47)

quiet a day because I’m not feeling great ⁓ or can I reduce this and make up for it another day when I’m feeling better? ⁓ I think it just then gains that respect from them too of being like, right, like she actually must be feeling it. So we’ll just, yeah, so we’ll trust her and get on with it. And I think, yeah, obviously now being around for a long time in the cricketing circles, they know what I need to be able to prep for each game. So ⁓ they have that trust within me to

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (27:55)

Mm.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (28:16)

to be right still to go when games come along.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (28:20)

Yeah, and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of trust that goes both ways and that comes over time, but that is built through building rapport and it sounds like you have a fantastic network around you to sustain what you need to share and how you’re feeling.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (28:43)

Yeah, 100%. And even prior to like the season, I caught up with our dietitian and went through what I need or required because we’ve got a new coaching staff. So we got a new physio and ⁓ S and C. just so they were aware of what’s required during a game when it is hot. So what my pre-cooling strategies are. So if that’s slushies before a game to make sure my my in yeah, my body temperatures.

 

as cool as possible before going out there to play. it’s just that communication. we have a word document now that they’re aware of what I like in and around games. And then it’s just on me to be open of when I feel like I need that. then, yeah, more than happy to help out, which I’m forever thankful for.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:30)

What about the competitive space, Jemma? Do you feel supported by your competitors or do you think they look at that as perhaps ⁓ a point to actually gain momentum and one-upmanship?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (29:44)

No, I don’t think so. think, yeah, they’re very good. think it’s, I think the more I’ve been able to speak about it be open about it, the more people are, guess, willing to more accepting of it. think at the start, people didn’t really know what MS was and was just kind of like, ⁓ like, go hurry up. But like, say if I’m wanting to drink, ⁓ more frequently, if I’m batting, ⁓ they’ll be like, ⁓ teams used to be like, come on. They were time wasting. Like we’re on a time limit.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (29:55)

Mmm.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (30:11)

But now

 

I think the more that I’ve been able to be open about, I guess, the symptoms and how I feel within a game, the ⁓ more respect and the more courtesy they have for me. And yeah, I can’t fault anyone, like any team or whatnot for that, where I just tell them I just need a couple extra drinks and they’re like, yeah, no worries, like take your time. yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (30:32)

Yeah, that’s great.

 

Because I know even we’ve got the Australian Open on in Melbourne at the moment and I know as viewers and members ⁓ of the crowd, we make judgment calls when somebody’s taking longer between ends and the like, but we must never assume to know what’s actually going on ⁓ in the bigger scheme of things.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (30:57)

Yeah, 100%. I you nailed that on the head and even just in life in general as well. Just not with, I guess, the hate and that. just, yeah, in life you can’t judge people because you don’t know what they’re actually going through.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:02)

Mm-hmm.

 

Yeah. So I know with high performing athletes and we’ve had plenty of examples over the years where, and even in cricket, think Shane Warren took something and had to blame his mum. So we’ve got examples of that. But how do you manage the protocols of what you do to manage your condition and still fit?

 

within the confines of what the doping and regulations are as a professional athlete.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (31:46)

Yeah, definitely. know it was a bit uncertain when getting on medication for MS, obviously that’s you have to get going through those loopholes of what you can and can’t take as an athlete because yeah, we do get drug tested. So we had to triple check everything about the drug that I’m on, if it was accepted within the sporting avenue. even now I have to, I declare ⁓ when I do get drug tested that I am taking this so that they are

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (31:57)

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (32:15)

aware of it. But yeah, it’s just now like triple checking everything with the dietitian. If there’s something out there, I send it to her or there’s an app that you can check to see if you’re allowed to take that within your sport. ⁓ it has got better over the years, but yeah, you have to be super careful, even just little things when you’re out buying. ⁓ For instance, if you’re at a juice store, I don’t know if I can name the store, but say a juice store and they have ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:16)

Mm.

 

Absolutely,

 

yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (32:44)

Yeah, so if you’re for instance, you’re at a booth and you go and you see a protein ball, like we’re not allowed to have them because we’re not sure what protein they’re being is used. So it’s just like, I guess, things that I guess normal everyday people don’t even realize, but we have to make sure that we can’t have any of that anything that

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (32:53)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, so that

 

falls way outside your outside MS. That’s just everyday life. Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (33:09)

Yep, yeah, everyday life.

 

But yeah, within the MS stuff, I don’t really have anything. It’s just the medication that I had to get checked off and cleared to be sure that I can take that and still be able to play cricket and not get done.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:23)

you

 

Yeah, and look, and I’m sure that’s a moving minefield. I mean, it wasn’t until nine, even as recent as 1986 that we called PRP and blood doping and it was found to be performance enhancing because it sped up the way in which one recovers. And as a mere mortal, I know I can do it, but I’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to do it, I would guess.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (33:55)

Absolutely not. But yeah, we have people come around to us every season and tell us our do’s and don’ts of ⁓ what’s changed for the year. ⁓ For instance, we weren’t allowed up and goes the protein energizers for a while, but now we’re allowed. So it’s just forever changing and just making sure ⁓ we’re on top of if anything’s changed.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (33:58)

Yeah.

 

Is caffeine

 

an issue for you as an athlete? I mean, if you drank a Red Bull, is that problematic?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (34:24)

Depends red the red balls are fine V’s when all I had to have so it’s even just live. Yeah Yep, so it’s even just little things like that where like one company might be fine But the other one is banned so you just yeah have to triple check everything to to make sure even Panadol there’s some Panadols that we’re not allowed to take even on game day out of competition like it just honestly you could go down a loophole with all like the

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:29)

wow, it’s very specific, yeah.

 

Mmm.

 

Wow.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (34:52)

the do’s and don’ts and within competition without the competition. It’s crazy.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (34:58)

So was opening up about having MS an easy decision or was it a strategic one to make your management of it easier?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (35:12)

I think ⁓ I’ve been very fortunate over the years ⁓ that I’ve been on a lot of panels with MS and just hearing other people’s, ⁓ the way they obviously found out they got diagnosed and just the way they live their life with MS. yeah, it was quite ⁓ a real eye-opener for me where obviously, like I said prior, we get MRIs very quickly where people, ⁓ it takes them six months to a year to get an MRI. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:40)

Yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (35:42)

And it was just a real eye-opener for me and to even then hear people get discriminated at work because they look completely fine, but they might be having a really bad day, but their boss tells them to push on because, ⁓ I can’t see anything wrong with you. So I think it was the more that I sat on those panels and spoke to other people living with MS that I was like, wow, like some people have gone through hell with this, let alone being diagnosed and found out all that process to then.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (35:58)

you

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (36:11)

⁓ have that going on as well. That’s when I kind of realized I was like, right, with the little platform and profile that I have, I’m going to try and create that awareness. And even just talking about it now with people, ⁓ day to day, they go, ⁓ I know someone with MS and I know someone with MS and it’s actually incredible how many people do actually know people living with MS. I guess with anything, the more we speak about it, the more we can normalize it and ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:12)

Mmm.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (36:40)

and help those people living with MS.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (36:43)

Yeah, I think that’s fantastic. Are there other professional athletes ⁓ in the current day that have come out and shared their story with the same condition?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (36:56)

I know this lady I met her through when I was working with MS Queensland. ⁓ name’s like Janine Watson. ⁓ She does taekwondo at the Paralympics and she’s a great example of, ⁓ she’s in and out of a wheelchair. So some days she’s having a really bad day, so she’s in a wheelchair. Other days she’s walking around ⁓ completely fine. So yeah, I just remember her so clearly and even just

 

how competitive she is where she’s like, she’ll even sometimes at competitions. Yeah. So sometimes you’ll rock up in a wheelchair and then get out and just go to town on her competitor and then get back in the wheelchair. it’s kind of.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:28)

in such a physical sport.

 

There could be an advantage in that. Yeah, they might not see

 

you coming as a real threat.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (37:45)

Yeah, so yeah, she’s been

 

incredible to get to know and learn her story over the years as well.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (37:52)

Yeah, fantastic. So has living with MS changed your definition of strength as an athlete?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (38:03)

Yeah, obviously cricket in general is a tough sport and then to add on trying to play with that with MS, I guess it gave me ⁓ real resilience and ⁓ but also gratitude that I’m able to still play the sport and cricket is about 90 % bad times or annoying times and that 10 % gets me back ⁓ playing with the fun times. So, ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:25)

you

 

Sounds like a golf game.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (38:30)

Yeah, there’s days where you question why you play and it’s that 10 % that gets you

 

over the line of that competitiveness of winning a game. Yeah, but yeah, I think it’s just that competitive side of me that always kicks through and ⁓ shines through, especially when times do get tough.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (38:48)

Yeah, well done. Well done you. So finally, as a message to the power of women community Jemma, for women watching athletes or not managing health alongside ambition, what does sustainable ambition look like when you’ve got to factor in your body as part of the equation?

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (39:15)

Yeah, think we touched on it earlier. I think it’s that openness to tell people around you how you’re feeling, to lean on the support networks that you build throughout, even if that’s family, friends, work colleagues, yeah, earning that trust within them and them giving it back. I think that’s a massive way of being able to live with MS within everyday life, work life, sporting life.

 

Yeah, to know that yes, you are going to have your ups and downs, but to be able to lean on those ones around you to get you through those ⁓ tougher days is really crucial and to be willing to accept help along the way too. think that’s massive and something I continue to tell myself and is a good learning for me too is to, yeah, that it’s okay to ask for help and lean on the ones around you.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (40:09)

Mm.

 

And I think Jemma and I think the audience would agree, all of what you’ve just said and those traits and that vulnerability relates to life, whether you’re carrying a condition such as the one that you’ve got to cope with or not. think being vulnerable, knowing when to ask to help, all of those things can belong to the journey of life.

 

I think you’ve probably named really the recipe of that journey of how you face into the good days and the bad. But your job has probably a higher level of satisfaction. The bar’s higher than the average. think most people probably don’t have only the 10%. I think they’ve probably got a slightly better balance. So you live in very high performance.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (40:58)

Yeah.

 

Hahaha

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:12)

space with all of you’ve got going on. think you just do the most incredible job. And as I opened up this podcast, I said, I think you’re a winner already and there is no doubt about it. I imagine you have made those around you very, very proud.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (41:31)

Nah, thank you. Thank you for the kind words. And yeah, hopefully I can continue to help people along the way and ⁓ hopefully, yeah, one day be able to find a cure or be able to help people living with MS and people just in general. think, yeah, I think that’s it’d be pretty cool achievement.

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (41:42)

Mmm.

 

So how many years of cricket still in front of you Jemma? What’s the average age of retirement age for a cricketer? You’re coming up on 30, yeah.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (41:53)

⁓

 

Yeah, I am 30. So turn 30 and yeah, hit my thirties. I thought that day would never come, but here it is. But yeah, people, people actually play well into their mid thirties. Yeah. Some are even hit that the 37 mark. So I still have a few years left in me, hopefully. And I guess that main thing obviously in sport, goes down to your performance and, the love and drive for it as well. So if the love and drives there and I’m still playing

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:01)

You’ve hit 30.

 

Mmm.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (42:29)

Good cricket then yeah, hopefully continue playing for many more years to come. That’d be nice

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (42:34)

Yeah, brilliant. Well, you’re a fantastic role model in terms of the sport, in terms of life. I know the MS community value the ⁓ work that you’re doing and being a voice for it. It’s a powerful way to your life, Jemma. And you’ve got to cope with…

 

more hurdles than the average and you do it brilliantly. So thank you for your honesty and thank you for the inspirational messages that you’ve shared with us today. It’s been an absolute pleasure talking with you.

 

JEMMA BARSBY [Guest] (43:10)

No, I’m dying. Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s yeah, I’m very appreciative. So thank you

 

DI GILLETT [Host] (43:15)

Brilliant. Wonderful. So if I think I’d put it to anybody to share what Jemma’s had to say to us today, because the fact of the fact of life of being able to show up every day, despite the hurdles that you may face and do it in a competitive environment, this becomes such an inspirational message for somebody that you feel you could give just at that little bit of a boost and a little bit of a nudge over the line.

 

Please share. Until next time.

 

 

Chapters:

00:00 Empowerment Through Voice and Purpose

01:38 The Journey into Cricket: Family and Inspiration

07:41 Transitioning to Professional Cricket: Mentorship and Growth

10:09 The Reality of Women’s Cricket: Pay Disparities and Professionalism

13:04 The Love of the Game: From Passion to Profession

18:27 Living with MS: Challenges and Adaptations

25:53 Building Trust: Openness in a Competitive Environment

33:03 Raising Awareness: The Importance of Sharing Stories

36:08 Redefining Strength: Resilience in the Face of Adversity

37:49 Sustainable Ambition: Balancing Health and Performance

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Jemma Barsby at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jemma-barsby-210116103/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jemmaabb/?hl=en

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

 

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share insights and thought leadership in the weekly Power Of Women Podcast Brief.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

Let’s Talk About Women’s Longevity: Why We Should Rethink Ageing & Healthspan

Let’s Talk About Women’s Longevity: Why We Should Rethink Ageing & Healthspan

by | Jan 26, 2026 | Ageism, Female Empowerment, Health & Wellbeing, Women's Health

In this powerful and deeply relevant conversation, Di Gillett is joined by Maddy Dychtwald, globally recognised futurist, author, and co-founder of Age Wave – to talk about longevity and challenge outdated narratives around ageing, retirement, women’s health and relevance.

Women are living longer than ever before – yet spending more years in declining health. Maddy unpacks why lifespan is the least useful measure of ageing, why healthspan and brainspan matter far more, and how up to 90% of our long-term health outcomes are within our control.

This conversation goes well beyond theory. From inflammation, menopause, and Alzheimer’s risk, to workforce ageism, outdated retirement models, and the power of lifestyle choice, this episode is a call to reclaim agency – personally, professionally, and biologically.

This is not about anti-ageing.
It’s about ageing with authority, vitality, and intention.

 

We explore:

  • Why women are winning the longevity lottery, but paying a hidden price
  • The critical difference between lifespan, healthspan and brainspan
  • How inflammation accelerates ageing – and what actually reduces it
  • Why women are twice as likely to develop Alzheimer’s
  • The outdated retirement model that no longer serves women or economies
  • Ageism as the last socially acceptable bias
  • Why older women are an untapped workforce advantage
  • How purpose, attitude, and social connection directly impact longevity
  • The lifestyle levers that matter most – beyond diet and exercise.

 

Key takeaways:

  • Up to 90% of health and wellbeing is influenced by lifestyle, environment, and access to science
  • Ageing well is not about genetics – it’s about epigenetics and choice
  • Health systems treat illness; longevity requires prevention
  • Muscle mass, inflammation reduction and social connection are non-negotiables
  • Retirement as we know it was designed for a world that no longer exists
  • Older women bring resilience, wisdom, and leadership – not obsolescence
  • Attitude toward ageing can extend life expectancy by up to 7.5 years.

 

Maddy said:

“We truly are becoming the CEOs of our own health and wellbeing.”

“Up to 90% of our health and wellbeing has to do with our lifestyle choices, our environment and the science that we have access to.”

“People associate the 70s and the 80s as being a time for falling apart. And I refuse to be that.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (00:02)

On the very first day of the 20th century, average life expectancy was only 47. So inflammation is a huge deal. ⁓ It’s one of the what’s called hallmarks of aging. So in other words, it’s one of the factors that really create negative health spans. They tell us that up to 90%, 90 %?

 

of our health and wellbeing has to do with our lifestyle choices, our environment, and the science that we have access to. We have fewer young people entering the workforce ⁓ than we ever did before. So in many corporate environments, in many entrepreneurial environments, we need the older workers ⁓ just because we need those bodies. You know, get rid of the gluten, get rid of the dairy.

 

get rid of as much sugar as you can. So, you know, I did that. And by the way, that was the secret sauce.

 

Okay, so ⁓ I’ve been digging deep into aging, longevity, the new retirement for close to 40 years. 40 years, and that’s probably longer than some of your listeners have even been alive. And what I’ve really come to understand is that a couple things. First, we women, we are very different than men. And the way we age and we

 

behave in the second half of life very different than men. ⁓ The other thing that I came to really understand is that longevity, it’s been kind of like a bro thing up until now. Part of the reason I got so obsessed with really understanding aging and longevity is because when I looked at what books and information was out there,

 

It was mostly dominated by men. And I’m like, whoa, this is really wrong. We need to change this drama. We need to bring women into the fold and have us better understand how we can live better longer. And that’s really what I’m all about.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (02:27)

What if everything you’ve been told about aging is wrong? And what if the only thing standing in your way is the outdated narrative we’ve inherited? I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

 

And today’s conversation is absolutely one of those that we all need to hear because we’re living through a longevity revolution, especially for women. And as today’s guest points out, we’re living longer than ever before. Women are outliving men by five years and 50 year old women today can expect another 35 years in life. But there is an uncomfortable truth because we’re living longer.

 

but we’re not living well. And the average woman spends the last 14 years of life in declining health despite science saying that 70 to 90 % of our longevity is within our control. My guest today is a global visionary who is rewriting the narrative of what it means to age as a woman. Maddy Dychtwald is a celebrated author, researcher,

 

and co-founder of Age Wave, the world’s leading consultancy on aging, retirement, and the future of longevity. And for more than 40 years, she’s studied how longer lives are reshaping identity, health, work, money, and purpose. And her book, Ageless Aging, is a blueprint for women not just to live longer, but to live better, stronger, sharper, and more empowered.

 

Maddy Dychtwald welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (04:22)

Thanks Di it’s a pleasure to be here.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (04:25)

Fab. Maddy, I feel so privileged and I know you’ve mentioned that you’re going through a cleanse at the moment, which I think is terribly fitting with the lifestyle that you lead and are promoting. And you’re a subject matter expert on the topics of aging, longevity, brain span, lifespan, and you’ve been recognised by Forbes as one of the top 50 futurists globally.

 

What actually drew you to this work in the first place?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (05:00)

Believe it or not, it was just kind of by accident, which so many things in our lives happened by accident. I was working in Los Angeles as an actress, and I was an actress at the time, not an actor. I was lucky enough to be… I know, right? Very big distinction. And at the time, I was lucky enough to be employed all the time, doing a lot of television commercials, working on a soap opera.

 

And when I started to realize is I would go to auditions and they would talk to women who were like 30 plus as if they were over the hill. And I’m like, what, what, what’s going on here? What kind of reality is that, that women, once they hit a certain age, whether it be 30, 50, or even 70, that they no longer count, that they’re no longer relevant to their social.

 

lifestyle, workplace. ⁓ It just seemed so insane to me that I became really interested in it. And then coincidentally, I met my husband who had written a book about the demographic shifts, which he called age wave. So about the fact that we used to be a world where all the action was with younger people because that’s where the growth in the marketplace was.

 

but that it has really, we’ve seen a flip-flop. We’ve seen suddenly that while people in the younger age groups, ⁓ they used to be fast growing, ⁓ that’s where we’re seeing shrinking populations. And in the 50 plus population, we see them as the fastest growing populations. So the whole idea of what is old and what is young,

 

is beginning to shift as a result.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (07:00)

How long ago was that that they were talking to 30 year olds with or purporting 30 year olds were were aging Maddy just to put a line a line

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (07:11)

Sure,

 

that’s a good question. So I’m 75.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (07:16)

And look at you!

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (07:18)

Well, thank you, I think. You know what, this is such a really difficult thing to talk about because you can look great at any age, at 60, at 90, at 42, and you can look horrible also at those ages, depending on the way you live your life and the science that you are able to have access to. So, you know, most of it is up to you, but not all of it.

 

So yeah, at the time, 50 was considered over the hill. In fact, Ken and I, my husband, when we started Age Wave, we would go into corporations that we were working with as keynote speakers to talk about the future of aging and longevity. And at that time, 50 was considered over the hill for women and men.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (08:11)

Yeah. And that’s been a big part of what I’m reporting on the podcast. I’m early 60s and you’ve now become my pinup for 70s. I think I’ve become look pretty amazing. But similarly to you, it’s been lifestyle choices behind that. that

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (08:26)

yourself.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (08:35)

That is part of what I would love to explore in detail with you today, Maddy. Because you describe this as a point in time that it’s a longevity revolution. For the female listening, what exactly do you mean by that?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (08:54)

Okay, so throughout most of history, people really didn’t have the opportunity to age. They died. ⁓ In fact, you would see that it wasn’t until the 20th century that we saw average life expectancy begin to skyrocket. as an example, on the first day, well, actually, let’s try that again. On the very first day,

 

Of the 20th century, average life expectancy was only 47. 47. And by the last day of the 20th century, it had gone all the way up on average for women and men, the average went all the way up to 78. So think about, yeah, it’s like year longevity. What I think of as a longevity bonus.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (09:43)

Goosebumps, yeah. Literally got goosebumps.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (09:51)

30 extra years of life.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (09:54)

So how much of that do we contribute to medicine versus how we actually choose to live?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (10:01)

That is a great question. So a lot of the breakthroughs that happened in the 20th century had to do with science and medicine breakthroughs, had to do with antibiotics were suddenly very popular and accepted. ⁓ Sanitation, simple things like sanitation and refrigeration really helped us to live better longer. But today, the kinds of breakthroughs we see and the kind of breakthroughs we need

 

are very, very different than what they were then. Now, today, more lifestyle and environmental kinds of breakthroughs are needed. And I would say that the science is still evolving, so it puts a lot of pressure on the lifestyle choices we make. We truly are becoming the CEOs of our own health and wellbeing.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (10:55)

I love that framing. So the stats are really concerning, Maddy, because we’re living, as you’ve just pointed out, we’re definitely living longer than ever. Yet we’re spending more years in poor health. Where’s the disconnect happening?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (11:14)

Okay, so this is a very simple thing to understand. So just to put it into context, we used to think that genetics were our destiny, that it had nothing to do with the choices we made in our lives, that most of our 75 % of our health and wellbeing had to do with our genes. yeah, so that, okay, no problem. We don’t have to care about what we eat or if we exercise or.

 

what our sleep looks like and yada, yada, yada. But the most recent breakthroughs in science tell us a very different story. They tell us that up to 90%, 90 % of our health and wellbeing has to do with our lifestyle choices, our environment and the science that we have access to. Now that’s literally a breakthrough kind of

 

concept that we are in charge of our own health and well-being and that the choices we make make a difference in not only how long we live but in how well we live and that is huge. That has to do with our health span and our brain span as well as the number of years or our lifespan.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (12:33)

Why are so many people ignorant to this? know you’re out there, you’re going and doing presentations. What is the reason? And I’m going to focus on women being the power of women, Maddy, but why is there such a large cohort that just don’t know this?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (12:53)

That is the million dollar question. Actually, it’s the trillion dollar question because that’s how much it’s costing us in terms of our health and well-being on a personal level, on a societal level. It’s a huge number.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (13:07)

So that was my question, what is the cost of not knowing and it’s trillion.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (13:11)

The cost is enormous and part of the problem, part of the challenge, I should say challenge, is that we’ve created a health system in our country that is really a sick care system rather than a healthcare system. So we’re not so great about preventing disease. We are fantastic at treating disease once it happens.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (13:39)

we’re the same. Yeah. It’s that band-aid approach to everything of let’s let’s approach the the cure-all after the event rather than preventing the event. That is such a ridiculous mindset for intelligent people to come to.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (13:55)

Yeah, but you know what? A lot of people just don’t know, don’t understand. Also, some people just don’t care and they don’t necessarily like trust the science.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (14:06)

Can I be not to be a conspiracy theorist, but is it commercially advantageous to keep the system running as healthcare?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (14:16)

I think there’s a lot of frustration with the healthcare system by not just patients, but people who work in the healthcare system. Now, I want to be really clear that most of the people who work in healthcare are very well-meaning and they want to do a good job, but they’ve been taught to do things in a way that no longer is effective.

 

And I think that that’s the rub. mean, the average doctor spends 15 minutes at most with a patient. I mean, how can you get anything accomplished in those 15 minutes? ⁓ It’s just not conceivable. yeah, it’s integrated into the system. So, which means even more so that each and every one of us needs to understand that there is a solution.

 

And the solution is, by the way, this kind of holistic recipe. It’s not just about one thing, but it’s about things like sleep and exercise and nutrition and social connections. ⁓ Your work life really matters. mean, all these things work together. They don’t exist in silos. Now, I know this is really hard to kind of keep in your mind without a visual, but

 

When I set out to write Ageless Aging, I reached out to my network of experts, which are top experts, researchers, scientists, physicians. And I was surprised that, first I was surprised that almost everyone got back to me. So there was like 90 people that got back to me. But besides that, I was surprised to see there was a lot of agreement about what works, what doesn’t work. So, yeah.

 

I think that ultimately it is. We know what works and it’s not about your genes, it’s about turning the good genes on and turning the bad genes off. That’s called epigenetics.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (16:10)

Good starting point.

 

Yeah. Now you mentioned ⁓ social connection. Yes. And there must be an interface between social connection and the fact that we are still wedded to a 1980s, an 1880s version of retirement. Because retirement is one of these things that does absolutely lead to social

 

disconnection because it’s the point where so many people come together. Why are we so outdated in how we’re hanging on to this whole view of what is the retirement age and when we call time on our careers?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (17:08)

That’s a very complicated question. Let me try to pull some of the threads on that. You’re right. 1880s Otto von Bismarck was the one who created the first pension program for Europe. And at the time, average life expectancy was only 47. And he chose the number 65 as retirement age. So think about that for a minute. He was a very

 

DI GILLETT: Host (17:34)

Until

 

you died.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (17:36)

Yeah, exactly. It was not meant to be for anyone, for very few people. ⁓ Let’s fast forward to today where average life expectancy has skyrocketed all the way up to in the US, 78. It’s even higher in Australia, in Great Britain, and a lot of other countries. And what we see is that because we’ve been wedded to a system that was put into place

 

such a long time ago, it is creating incredible stress on our government and our governments. mean, it’s global issue, not just in the United States and then on us individually, because as you pointed out so beautifully, Dee, ⁓ the workplace happens to be a great place for socialization. Just to put it into a context.

 

My company Age Wave, we do a lot of research. And one of the questions we’ve asked in a very recent study that we put out there was we asked retirees and we asked pre-retirees, what are you going to miss most about the workplace? So we asked pre-retirees, people who are still working, and they said, we’re going to miss the money. And when you think about it, that makes a lot of sense. I mean,

 

Living on a fixed income seems overwhelming and seems like, know, wow, if I could delay that for a little while, that would be a smart move. So that makes sense. However, when we asked retirees, they had a very different answer. They said it was the social connections. The money still mattered, but the social connections soared.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (19:27)

And those in the workplace just hadn’t imagined it because they hadn’t experienced it and they didn’t. That was yeah.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (19:32)

Exactly.

 

Because of COVID, we saw a lot of people stay home to work and we’re beginning to see that change. People are going back into the workplace. Why? Because they’re finding that they missed the social connection, the brainstorming, the ideas that you can come up with as a group rather than being single-minded.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (19:57)

Yeah, I can understand that. We’re having the same experience here in Australia, Maddy. what happens to a woman cognitively, psychologically, physically, when she gives up work and it’s before time, it might have been imposed upon her or they pulled the pin or they’ve simply lost their job?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (20:20)

Interestingly, while we know that women have won the longevity lottery, mean, we live longer than men, as you pointed out, in every country, ⁓ actually in every species. So it’s not just in humans.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (20:35)

That’s so yeah. Yeah. There you go

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (20:38)

Yeah, but we spend more years in retirement than men. And the impact that that has is pretty dramatic. ⁓ First, we’re taking off time along the way to care give our children.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (20:53)

So we’ve got broken income in retirement savings.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (20:57)

That’s That’s exactly right. Yeah. You know the answer. Yeah. We’re not getting the pensions that we should. We’re not getting the social security that we should. Then we retire early, oftentimes because we could be married if we are married or partnered to someone who’s a little bit older than us who might be getting sick and need us to care for them. ⁓ Add to that.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (21:23)

This

 

lottery is looking pretty shabby at the moment.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (21:26)

Oh, I can make it even worse. I won’t try to make it worse because women are incredibly having the information that you can be in charge of your own health and well-being and that you can find mechanisms to stay socially active and full of a sense of purpose and take the right steps to live better longer. Not only does that feel empowering, it can increase our vitality.

 

our mental energy and our sense of purpose and wellbeing. So yeah, I would tell every single woman out there and I talk about it in Ageless Aging, ⁓ there’s some hacks, there’s some steps that each and every one of us ought to take to live better longer, especially women.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (22:18)

And you’re a pin up for that, Maddy, because you’re, I mean, but you are, you’re professionally engaged, you’re out there in the community, you’re following, and we’ll get to that in some more detail if we could, some lifestyle protocols that are improving your longevity and wellbeing, the importance being the two things together.

 

Could I ask if you had the opportunity, and I’m sure you do to an extent in the work that you’re doing, but if you could sit down in front of CEOs and hiring managers in organizations across the marketplace, what would you be telling them about retirement and the older workforce?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (23:11)

Mm.

 

See, that’s a simple but complicated question. For one thing, we have fewer young people entering the workforce ⁓ than we ever did before. So in many corporate environments, in many entrepreneurial environments, we need the older workers ⁓ just because we need those bodies. Second, exactly. Older workers.

 

There’s some stereotypes that they’re not tech savvy. That is not true at all. ⁓ There’s some stereotypes that don’t really take into account the fact that they have wisdom and accumulated experience that can be of value to not just themselves and their company, but to their coworkers, especially to younger workers. And what we’ve seen is there’s this great opportunity

 

for older workers to mentor young ones and younger ones to mentor older ones because they can share skills. And it’s very empowering for everyone. So I think that there’s these misconceptions and concepts that older workers do not have wisdom, which is totally false, that they are not resilient. And in fact, studies have shown that

 

The older we get, the more resilience we get. So we’re able to handle stress far better than younger people. And we know that, you we’ve been through a lot. We’ve been through COVID, we’ve been through up turns and down turns in the marketplace. We’ve been sick, we’ve cared for older adults, younger children. We’ve seen it all. So we know that we can not only get through it, but that we can…

 

actually prevail and do well. And I think that having that kind of a mindset is an incredibly valuable tool for any worker and that corporate leaders who don’t take advantage of it are going to be losing out come the next decade.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (25:27)

And I think on that aging piece, Maddy, too, with wisdom, we’ve only got to look at indigenous cultures around the world who actually value elders as distinct to how we seem to do in first world cultures. We’ve got a lot to learn.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (25:44)

That’s right. That’s right. And we have not learned the lesson well. mean, this one ism that is still very acceptable is ageism, especially aimed at women, especially something that I call lookism, the idea that, well, if you don’t look a certain way, we don’t want you around.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (26:05)

Well, we all know gray for men is applauded, gray for women is criticized. Proud to palm. Yeah, yeah, so we know that. Well, coming up, how inflammation actually accelerates aging and why women are twice as likely to develop Alzheimer’s.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. I’m talking with Maddy Dychtwald, globally renowned futurist and subject matter expert about extending our health span, our brain span and our lifespan. Maddy, you write that lifespan is the least meaningful.

 

measure of aging and that health span and brain span are actually what matters. Why are we still focusing then on the wrong matrix?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (27:05)

I think the idea, okay, let me try this another way. Here we are in the 21st century and there are a lot of what I call tech bros who are at the leading edge of longevity and they’re great. I mean, they’re really, they wanna see how long they can live and they haven’t necessarily connected it with the idea of how well they can live.

 

So they’re investing a lot of dollars and a lot of time and a lot of energy into extending lifespan or life expectancy, which we’ve done a pretty good job of. Let’s be honest about it. However, there is a total disconnect between lifespan and health span and as well brain span. And let me tell you what I mean by that. How span it’s really simple. The number of healthy years that you live. So in

 

The US also in Australia, by the way The average person spends the last 12 years of their lives in a cascade of poor health things simple as aches and pains ⁓ heart disease ⁓ All kinds of chronic degenerative diseases of strokes people are frightened of strokes worst of all

 

Alzheimer’s disease and I’ve seen it firsthand. My mom, yes. I mean, when you see someone suffering from Alzheimer’s disease, it not only breaks your heart, it scares you to death.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (28:33)

have on.

 

That’s

 

right. Yeah, that’s right. How much has, and that’s an interesting point, Maddy, how much has watching your parents in the generation before you sparked you and motivated the actions that you’re taking?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (29:01)

No, it’s a great deal. I would just say that, you know, watching my mom, my husband, Ken, his mom also suffered from Alzheimer’s disease and it manifested very differently in each of our parents. But watching both of them was, it was heartbreaking. And we became, Ken and I both became advocates for, let’s not see how many great caregivers we can get, which is important, but there are a lot of people

 

doing that work. Instead, we wanted to help fund the research to find a cure for Alzheimer’s disease. And you know what? We still haven’t found a cure.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (29:44)

So let’s get into a conversation we could then about inflammation because I think that’s, there’s a direct correlation here. What are we doing in living our lives that is the trigger to this inflammation in our body that’s leading to our aches and pains, that’s leading to the cognitive decline? Is there one or two significant areas you could highlight?

 

for us.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (30:16)

Okay, me, so inflammation is a huge deal. ⁓ It’s one of the, what’s called hallmarks of aging. So in other words, it’s one of the factors that really create negative health spans and brain spans in your life, no matter who you are. And what’s so beautiful about inflammation is a lot of it is within our control. So I’ll use myself as an example. ⁓

 

seven years ago, was experiencing excruciating hip pain. And I’m a huge exerciser, which by the way is probably the best thing that I do for myself. But I was like limping around to the point where my son turned around and said to me, mom, what’s with you? You look like you’re 90 years old, get yourself to the doctor. So I did and I tried everything. I tried ⁓ just, know, cortisone treatments and.

 

I tried going to physical therapy. I tried stem cells. I tried PRP. I did it all. And all of it worked for a very short time. And finally got an MRI and I learned that I was bone on bone in both my hips. I had been born with hip dysplasia and I didn’t know that, you know. Today they do something about it with an infant, but for me, like nobody knew.

 

even what hip dysplasia was 75 years ago. So, you know, I became hysterical. My doctor said to me, you need to get hip replacements. So I did my research, found a doctor to do a double hip replacement, both hips at once, but he couldn’t take me for three months. And so I said to him, what should I do in the meantime? And he says, well, get a cane. And I’m like,

 

Okay, that’s a great idea as a last resort, but it’s not the way I that’s not the visual I have of myself. So I reached out to my network of people, people like Mark Hyman and Andy Weil, and I said, what should I do? And they told me, you’ve got to fight inflammation. It’s that simple. And they told me number one, get out an anti inflammatory diet. So it’s not that hard.

 

I was already eating pretty healthy, it’s, you know, get rid of the gluten, get rid of the dairy, get rid of as much sugar as you can. So, you know, I did that. And by the way, that was the secret sauce. I also did a few other things, but that was the secret sauce. I started meditating, started visualization. All of these things worked, but within six weeks, I think mostly through the diet and I continued exercising, but through the diet.

 

I no longer had any pain at all in my hips. It all went away. I looked at my biomarkers through blood tests, no inflammation in my body whatsoever. So it is something that is within our control. So I would advise anyone who has those aches and pains or dealing with diabetes or heart disease, try an anti-inflammatory diet. It may sound really hard. It’s not.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (33:39)

And if you don’t believe Maddy, I came to the same realization only three years after you, Maddy, with the same thing. I was having six monthly PRP on my hip. I was booked in for hip replacement on one hip, but kept it at bay with PRP. Then during COVID, I don’t have hip dysplasia, but I have a lifetime of skiing and horse riding accidents that have caught up with me. ⁓

 

and bone on bone. had bunion pain. I ended up in hospital during COVID. And the blessing was with nerve pain, they couldn’t operate because of COVID restrictions. But then six months later, I too came to the realization that inflammation was my kryptonite, fueled by my love of sugar. And I

 

And I went cold turkey on sugar, which as you know, means you go cold turkey on nearly all processed food. Yep. And I’ve, I’ve not had PRP since I have not had, I have, I have ⁓ nerve atrophy on, on, on a numb leg because clearly my, my nerve was, was trapped, but I don’t have the bunion pain. I don’t have the aches. I don’t have the pain. I don’t have the sugar bloating that I used to have.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (34:39)

almost everything.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (35:03)

visually because it was causing this build up of bloating in your system. it’s a no-brainer and it’s just a commitment to doing it.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (35:17)

It is, it’s a big commitment. know, there were two people that I respect greatly. I’m always asked, where do I begin? And there’s two different points of view. ⁓ One of the physicians at Mayo Clinic told me, well, pick one way to get started with it’s, you know, exercise or what you eat or your sleep, whatever seems easy, start there. And then you’re going to have some success.

 

and you can start incrementally adding other ingredients from that holistic recipe. On the other hand, ⁓ I’m friends with Dr. Dean Ornish and Dean said to me, no, I would not do that at all. I would say do it all at once. And then within three weeks, you’re gonna feel so different, so much better that you’ll be highly committed. you know, there’s two different ways to skin a cat.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (36:16)

So women are twice as likely to develop Alzheimer’s. Why is that?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (36:26)

Okay, so I don’t think that we know the answer to that, but we do know that it is in fact true. I think that you can blame menopause a little bit. I think that when women go through menopause and they’re not doing hormone replacement therapy, there’s some radical things that go on in your body. There’s been this assumption in the past

 

that the symptoms of menopause were just uncomfortable and suffer through it. But in fact, that is not true. They are not just symptoms. There are things that change in your body that have detrimental effect on your health, including the shrinking of gray matter in your brain. And you do not want that happening. And so I. The new.

 

black box prescription for menopause really does include hormone replacement unless, unless there’s a big unless unless you have reproductive cancers running in your family.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (37:41)

Yeah, I what what is the acceptance of HRT like in the US I know Australia’s Australia’s still mixed. I mean, I’ve I’m I’m 61 and I’ve been on HRT for the better part of of 20 years and even with my health care providers, it’s still controversial because I I don’t follow mainstream medicine I follow

 

compounding medicine for my HRT and I get wrapped over the knuckles for it regularly but I’ll take that as my choice. How are women accepting the fact that HRT is important in the US?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (38:29)

Okay, well, this is a very complicated question, but the simple answer is things are getting better. ⁓ As you know, there was this huge study, the Women’s Health Initiative that was done. And it’s important to keep in mind that in the study, they were looking at women all over the age of 60. and they were using, ⁓ they weren’t using bioidentical hormones, they were using synthetic

 

hormones. In fact, they were using hormones ⁓ that were derived from a horse’s urine. So if that’s what you want to put in your body, don’t expect great results. And they didn’t get great results. What they found, they stopped the study because a lot of women who were in the study were getting heart disease rather than being protected from it. So that was what many gynecologists and regular doctors have

 

based their knowledge on. So they’re well-meaning. So it’s not like they mean to mess us up, but in fact they are messing us up. So the more recent science tells a very different story. Number one, you need to start hormone replacement early like you did. ⁓ You want it to start early. You can’t go into it at age 60. That is a no-no. ⁓ Second, you don’t want to use synthetic hormones. You want to use bioidentical hormones.

 

And yeah, those are two really important pieces of the puzzle. knowing that that is the science that is being talked about now. However, in the United States, it’s still not, it’s just beginning to open the door to the conversation. So women who are on the cutting edge of knowledge and information, they know it, they’re doing it, they’re great.

 

The average woman in the United States feels a tremendous amount of confusion and ⁓ fear, a lot of fear around it.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (40:38)

With good reason.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (40:40)

Absolutely, and I don’t blame them. But I have spoken to some of the top menopause specialists in our country, ⁓ and they have a different story. They say, yes, yes, you do want to have hormone replacement. And some of them even suggest that it’s just progesterone that is the problem for women who have reproductive cancer running in their families.

 

So you don’t take the progesterone and there are things you can do instead of taking the progesterone.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (41:18)

Yeah. Maddy, you’ve said it’s not just ⁓ sleep and diet and exercise. And I think we’ve touched on all of those, albeit we haven’t really delved into sleep today. But what are the less obvious levers that women aren’t paying attention to that we should be?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (41:39)

Well, we talked a little bit about social connection, and I think that we need to just underline the fact that loneliness is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (41:51)

Can repeat that? Loneliness? That is extraordinary.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (41:56)

Yeah, it’s the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Yeah, so you need to take it seriously. And this whole idea of sense of purpose, ⁓ we talk about it as a nice to have, but what we’re beginning to recognize is that it’s a biological imperative, that there actually are deep connections between your brain health

 

DI GILLETT: Host (42:01)

Wow.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (42:24)

and having a sense of purpose. again, you don’t have to be starting a podcast or a nonprofit to be having a sense of purpose. You may not even have to go back into the workplace. Maybe it’s just walking your dog in the morning or taking care of your grandchildren. I mean, you don’t want to dictate to people how they get a sense of purpose. It’s different for everyone. So that’s something. But the one that I love the most is this idea of our attitude because

 

Attitude doesn’t cost a penny and it doesn’t take a lot of time, but there have been studies that have done Dr. Becca Levy from Yale was the famous longitudinal study in the US in the Midwest. She learned that having a positive attitude about your own aging and the aging of those around you can add up to seven and a half years to your lifespan and can improve your cardiovascular health.

 

by 40%. I mean, imagine that.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (43:26)

That’s extraordinary. But there has to be a correlation between that and having a sense of purpose. Attitude and sense of purpose are intertwined.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (43:37)

See, I think all of these things are intertwined. if you, by the way, money has something to do with it as well, finances, you if you don’t, using money as an example, if you don’t have your financial house in order, ⁓ your cortisol levels are going to go through the roof. You’re not going to be able to sleep at night. You’re probably going to eat a lot of processed foods instead of the healthy ones.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (43:56)

Okay.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (44:06)

I mean, there’s just…

 

DI GILLETT: Host (44:07)

So

 

cool.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (44:10)

It is, it’s a virtuous circle.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (44:14)

So with all of that in mind, is there a specific insight from these experts that you’ve been working with that’s actually changed how you’ve lived your life?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (44:25)

Yeah, first of all, I’m very happy that I’ve always been big into exercise. But one of the things that I didn’t really realize was the importance of building muscle mass. ⁓ It’s critical as one gets older. think that recognizing the fact that sarcopenia or loss of muscle mass begins as early as in your 30s.

 

So you need that strengthening exercises. You need to build it into your life. In fact, ⁓ one of the physicians that I interviewed for ageless aging told me that he believed that muscle strength should be a new vital sign, similar to our heart rate and our blood pressure. That’s how important it is. So that was a big aha. What else? think as you get older, that’s

 

you need more protein and I think that message I mean if you go on social media it’s all over the place yeah it is and

 

DI GILLETT: Host (45:29)

There’s good protein and there’s bad protein.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (45:32)

That’s

 

exactly right. And getting into a precursor to an amino acid that ⁓ builds protein, I think is a little bit more of an efficient way of building protein than eating gobs of protein.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (45:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (45:50)

You could never meet all your protein needs if you just like gobble down a lot of protein.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (45:56)

Yeah, and of course there’s different forms of protein being vegetable and animal.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (46:03)

That’s right. There’s one other thing that I need to underline for you that really I did change now that I’m really thinking it through. ⁓ I used to love having a glass of wine with dinner every night. And the most recent science tells us that even small amounts of alcohol can be toxic for your health, especially your brain health.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (46:27)

I was at a function earlier in the week and there were 20 people in this room and it was the first time I saw the majority of people go for non-alcoholic options. Now that’s probably got a high sugar component so there’s, you know, choose your…

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (46:48)

I know,

 

there’s a trade-off, if I’m gonna have sugar, I might as well have alcohol.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (46:51)

Yeah, but it was very interesting. And I know in talking to people in the hospitality industry across the country, that the consumption of alcohol, particularly with the younger generation coming through, has gone down. So the message is getting through somewhere. It’s a slow, slow burn. Maddy.

 

Thank you so much. I’ve got a couple of rapid fire questions if I could throw them at you. One word you want women to associate with aging.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (47:30)

⁓ Empowerment.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (47:33)

A daily non-negotiable for your own lifespan.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (47:38)

Exercise.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (47:39)

Yeah. The most surprising thing longevity research has taught you.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (47:47)

that I’m the CEO of My Own Health.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (47:51)

and a belief about aging you once held that you no longer do.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (47:57)

You know, I guess the one thing that kind of surprises me and that I wasn’t expecting was that ageism is real and it’s out there and everyone experiences it. And so when people say to me, my God, you look so young. You know, I don’t take that as a necessarily.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (48:20)

How does that land with you? Does that feel positive and a compliment or does that feel annoying and some other negative thought?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (48:33)

I feel like it’s a social moray from another century. I think that, you know, this is one version of 75 and part of that and a big part of that has to do with the way I live my life. And it’s reflected in the way I look. mean, exercise and diet and sleep and all of these things together contribute to

 

not just the way you feel, but the way you look. yeah, I feel like, yes, I look youthful, but I don’t look necessarily young.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (49:13)

Yeah, and I think that is such an important distinction. So if somebody said, I applaud you for the way in which you live your life, that would probably land better than somebody saying, you defy your age.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (49:29)

Makes me a little uncomfortable. just, um, I just did a LinkedIn post about it because we need to find ways to recognize that as we get older, we, there’s different forms of beauty and it’s, know, I mean, we’re not going to look like we looked when we were 20. I mean, there’s just no way. mean, we see you.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (49:52)

and you look vital and I think that’s probably what we don’t say when we’re we’re applauding somebody who who looks all of those things at at an age that we have traditionally didn’t associate with those traits.

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (50:08)

You hit it right on the nose. I think that that is 100 % true. ⁓ People associate the 70s and the 80s as being a time for falling apart. And I refuse to be that, or I don’t want to be that. And I’m sure that I’m going to have to deal with some things that are going to be setbacks. But I do see a lot of people around me falling apart. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT: Host (50:37)

And that’s where the attitude comes in. That’s where you’re on the front foot in how you approach it. Maddy, this is such a valuable conversation and it’s one I could get lost in infinitum and I can see what has drawn you and your husband into it as a point of specialization and I absolutely applaud you for what you are doing and if you haven’t

 

found Maddy on LinkedIn, I suggest you do because her thought leadership pieces are so insightful and I’ve become ⁓ an avid reader of the insights that you’re putting out there. How else does somebody find you Maddy and the work that you’re doing?

 

MADDY DYCHTWALD: Guest (51:29)

Well, I’m not sure about Australia, but I do know that Ageless Aging became a national bestseller in the US and it’s available. Bookstores everywhere, Amazon of course, and they can also go to my website, agewave.com or maddydykewald.com.

 

DI GILLETT: Host (51:50)

Fantastic, fabulous. Well, if you haven’t got on to the health span longevity ⁓ area in terms of your pursuits of learning, I really suggest you do. And I suggest that you share this particular episode of podcast with somebody that you value, because that could just be the trigger to put it on your radar. Until next time.

 

Chapters:

00:00 The Longevity Revolution: Understanding Ageing

02:52 Women and Ageing: A Unique Perspective

06:00 The Shift in Retirement: Rethinking Age and Work

08:54 Lifestyle Choices: The Key to Health and Longevity

12:11 The Disconnect: Living Longer but Not Better

15:11 Social Connections and the Impact of Retirement

18:06 The Value of Older Workers in Today’s Workforce

20:57 Challenging Ageism: Embracing Wisdom and Experience

24:10 Health Span vs. Lifespan: What Really Matters

27:31 Lifespan vs. Healthspan: Understanding the Disconnect

29:44 The Impact of Inflammation on Health

36:16 Menopause and Its Effects on Women’s Health

41:39 The Importance of Social Connection and Purpose

44:25 Insights from Experts on Ageing and Health

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Maddy Dychtwald at:

Website https://maddydychtwald.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/maddydychtwald/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/maddydychtwald/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

 

💫 If this conversation shifted your thinking, share it with a woman you respect.

 

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts — and join the conversation redefining what it means to age, lead and live well.

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

Women’s Healthcare Reimagined: A Revolutionary Approach

Women’s Healthcare Reimagined: A Revolutionary Approach

by | Dec 21, 2025 | Change Makers, Female Entrepreneur, Health & Wellbeing

This was such an import episode from earlier in the year, we were compelled to replay it for you.

Women’s healthcare is broken and Hema Prakash is rebuilding it from the ground up.

Hema is the co-founder of Ponti Health, Australia’s first integrated women’s health clinic built on the principles of slow medicine, agency, and whole-woman care. With more than 25 years across technology, private equity and innovation, she brings systems thinking, cultural awareness, and lived experience to redefining menopause and midlife healthcare.

In this powerful conversation, Hema shares how decades in tech and private equity, a global upbringing, and her own perimenopause journey shaped the creation of Ponti Health – an integrated clinic reimagining women’s health through slow medicine, time-rich consultations, and a fiercely woman-centred model of care.

Hema challenges the medicalisation of menopause, exposes gaps in the Australian healthcare system, and lays out the truth: women have been underserved for too long. The revolution begins with giving women back their intelligence, agency, and time.

 

You’ll hear:

  • Menopause should be viewed as a transition, not a medical condition
  • How Ponti Health blends East, West, tech and time into a groundbreaking new model
  • Women need to prioritise their health and well-being
  • Financial independence is crucial for women in midlife
  • Self-care is essential for maintaining health and happiness and long-term wellbeing
  • The dangerously underfunded state of women’s health research
  • The leadership philosophy Hema lives by: humility, empathy and excellence
  • Intergenerational friendships can provide valuable wisdom.

 

Hema said:

“Ponti Health is the first of its kind in Australia.”

“Women need to be financially independent.”

“We need to support our researchers.”

Chapters:

00:00 The Journey of Hema Prakash: From Curiosity to Leadership

02:55 Founding Ponti Health: A New Era in Women’s Health

14:22 Navigating Male-Dominated Industries: Lessons in Humility and Learning

19:23 The Personal Journey: Understanding Menopause and Women’s Health

27:14 Challenging the Medicalisation of Menopause

38:33 The Importance of Self-Care and Prioritising Health

50:56 Legacy and the Future: Empowering Women in Midlife

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Hema at:

Website https://www.pontihealth.com.au

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/hema-prakash-503260/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/pontihealth/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. Episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

Want more fearless, unfiltered stories?

💫 Subscribe to the Power Of Women Podcast on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts

Your ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify keeps these stories alive.

 

📩 Sign up for our newsletter where I share raw reflections and thought leadership on the Power Of Reinvention.

 

Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/