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Shame Caused by the Abuse of Power Must Be Redirected to the Perpetrators

Shame Caused by the Abuse of Power Must Be Redirected to the Perpetrators

by | Mar 2, 2026 | Female Author, Recovery

Shame caused by the abuse of power. A brave conversation which does include references to child sexual abuse.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett speaks with Dr Martina Zangger about childhood abuse, the psychology of shame, and the long path to healing.

Growing up in Basel, Switzerland, Martina’s childhood appeared privileged. The reality was abuse by powerful men within her own family – men who were respected pillars of society. Men whom should know better, be better, do better.

Disclosure did not happen until she was 27.

We also hear about Martina’s extraordinary experience having spent a decade in the infamous Rajneesh cult in the United States.

Now a psychotherapist and author of Not My Shame, Martina’s life work focuses on shifting shame back to where it belongs. – to the perpetrators.

 

➡️You’ll Hear :

Why shame attaches to survivors.

The common traits of perpetrators.

Why disclosure often takes decades.

The psychology of cult power dynamics.

How women move from silence to authorship.

 

Powerful quotes from Dr Martina Zangger:

“I believe that shame must change sides.”

“It took until I was 27 to disclose the abuse.”

“We can heal and we will have relief from the damage of abuse.”

👉 Read the full transcript of this conversation here

FULL TRANSCRIPT_DR MARTINA ZANGGER

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (00:02)

So I believe that my purpose in life is to hold rage in one hand and hope in the other. And that gives me the energy to do the work I do. I walk along victims’ survivors on their journeys of healing. And I need that rage and hope to continue. Also, I believe that shame must change sides.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (00:31)

if shame was never yours to carry? And what if shame belongs unequivocally with those who cause harm, not with those who survive it? I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life.

 

Through revealing lived experience, it becomes a chorus of wisdom that makes sure women are seen not just for what we do, but for who we are. But before I begin, and as Hannah Asafiri has so rightly pointed out on this podcast in previous episodes, life doesn’t come with a trigger warning. However, this episode includes references to sexual abuse, so please

 

take care whilst listening. And let’s start with this point today as we kick off the conversation because it’s not designed to shock, provoke, or re-traumatise. It is designed to reframe, to shift shame back to where it belongs, to talk about survival without sanitizing it, and to name patterns, particularly narcissistic abuse.

 

So hopefully women can see them sooner, trust themselves more readily, and hopefully, where possible, leave earlier. And speaking out can be a key part of healing, which is exactly what today’s guest is doing. Martina Zangger, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (02:14)

Thank you so much for having me Di

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:17)

Martina, I’m going to jump around a little bit today and we had a bit of a exploratory discussion before Christmas, before we decided to record this episode. And there are some dark aspects of this conversation, but there’s also such a richness of lived experience that I’d love to understand today. But I think what we need to do is frame the very beginning and

 

⁓ and allow our listeners to understand some context. Are you comfortable with us doing that?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (02:54)

Yes very much so Di.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (02:56)

Okay, lovely. So I want to know about your childhood because from the outside, anybody looking at it, it would have looked safe, but the reality behind closed doors was a very, very different thing. Where did you grow up?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (03:14)

So I grew up in a small town in Switzerland called Basel, which is on the German and French border in the north. I grew up in a well-to-do household with a mother and father and two older brothers. Everything looked normal, yet underneath it all, were very, very… ⁓ It was a dangerous childhood.

 

and there were terrible things happening in both in our home and in the home that I was left in, my grandparents’ home, many times, probably every two, three weeks for two or three days. And that was my grandparents’ home was where I was sexually abused by my grandfather and by my uncle.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:05)

What do you most want people to understand about that time, Martina?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (04:11)

I think it’s really important to know that these were ordinary men. In fact, they were highly regarded citizens in our society, in the Swiss society. My grandfather was a high court judge and academic, and my uncle was a beloved politician and barrister. So they were well regarded men. They were men that were looked up to.

 

and yet behind closed doors they turned into something quite different.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (04:46)

and nobody would have had any idea and it would have been hard to actually be believed given their standing in the community.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (04:54)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this is why it took such a long time for me to disclose it. It took until I was 27 to disclose the abuse. And it happened, it happened between age two and age six. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (05:14)

And you’ve decided to now put pen to paper and you’ve written your memoir touching on this. Why now, Martina?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (05:27)

I was really ready now because I had, in 2010 I had finished my PhD, which was on sexual assault and the legal system. I was teaching at Newcastle University and I was an academic there. And once I finished my PhD, I thought, I never wanna write an academic paper again. It’s so stifling.

 

we are straight jacketed as academics and we can’t say what we really want to say. And so after I finished my PhD, I became ready then to start creative writing, which is what I pursued then. I was still teaching, but I was no longer writing the PhD or journal articles that were academic yet.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:23)

What year did you land in Australia? Because you grew up in Switzerland. What year did you, did you immigrate?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (06:29)

I

 

came to Australia in 1975 when I was 14 years old.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (06:34)

Okay, and we’ll come back because there’s a couple of moves there about that. But what actually triggered the immigration to Australia?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (06:47)

So in my hometown Basel were all the big pharma factories. So there was Roche, Sandoz, Seabar, Guygee and all the people in that town worked for one of the big pharma companies. My dad worked for big pharma and he was ⁓ given a promotion to ⁓ lead the company in Australia and Asia.

 

and that is how we moved to Australia.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:21)

And was that break in moving countries the break in the abuse?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (07:27)

Yes, it was, absolutely. Because at that time, I was no longer abused by my grandfather who had passed away or by my uncle who got married, but by a 17 year old who abused me for a couple of years between ages 12 and 14. And one of the big benefits of moving to Australia was that then the abuse stopped.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (07:55)

Okay, so there was a physical break point that allowed that to take place.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:05)

Yes, I it was amazing. I remember when my dad told us that we’re moving to Australia, my first thought was, my god, this is so great because I’m going to be free of the sexual abuse. Because I just did not know how to disclose it or how to be assertive and say to this guy, I don’t like it. I don’t want to see you anymore. I had no words. I was very unassertive.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:31)

Had you declared it to your parents?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:34)

No, I didn’t declare it until I was 27.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (08:40)

and from the work that you have done post PhD and in your studies, I suspect that is not uncommon.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (08:51)

It’s absolutely the most common ⁓ time frame when victims disclose it takes on average 25 years. I’ve worked with women, I recently have worked with a beautiful ⁓ older lady who is 85 and she is seeing me for counselling because her father sexually abused her. She has never told anyone until she turned 85.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:20)

Go to heavens.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (09:21)

So it takes much courage and time before victim survivors can disclose.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (09:30)

So you referenced about this 85 year old woman that you’re coaching at the moment. I suspect her non-disclosure at an earlier age was purely a generational thing.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (09:46)

Not purely, because even now there are victims who will never disclose. Even now there are young children who will never ever disclose. And that is such a tragedy because if we don’t disclose, we can’t heal. Because we can’t heal in isolation. We heal when we tell someone and the other person believes us.

 

If we don’t tell, we can’t heal.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (10:17)

So are young children more or less inclined to disclose in current day by contrast to when you grew up?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (10:27)

Yes, they are much more likely to disclose. And when I worked in sexual assault services in rural and regional New South Wales, had at least ⁓ two thirds of our caseload was children and adolescents. So there are more and more kids and adolescents disclosing much earlier because there’s more education in schools about ⁓

 

being safe about consent and about sexual abuse and what ⁓ sexual abuse actually is. So children are now more likely to disclose, however many still don’t.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:12)

So is that about awareness, not confidence? That is, the children are more aware, they’re not necessarily more confident, they’re just more aware?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (11:22)

They’re more aware and they, if they have one safe person in their life, whether that’s mum or an auntie or a teacher or a best friend, they are more likely to disclose if they have a safe person in their lives. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (11:42)

And you referenced off camera before about a particular Australian lawyer that you follow.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (11:49)

Yes, so I follow him on Instagram. He’s a Victorian lawyer and every day he posts the figures of child sexual abuse cases in court across Australia. And what he has found is that at least 25 % of all criminal cases that occur in courts across Australia are child sexual abuse cases.

 

which is just heartbreaking.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:20)

It absolutely is. And I suspect there are only the numbers that make it to court because somebody’s called it out. That doesn’t speak to the hidden abuse that is still ongoing or has taken place.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (12:35)

Yes, it’s

 

heartbreaking. But we’re doing much better education of kids, even little kids in preschools are getting information that they need so that they can disclose if anything ever happens to them.

 

which is wonderful.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (12:56)

It is, absolutely. Are we at risk that ⁓ an advanced thinking child might weaponize that or does that not happen?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:08)

I it happens. Yeah, I don’t think that happens. ⁓ Maybe one in a hundred. I know I’ve worked as a sexual assault ⁓ psychotherapist for 28 years. I would have maybe five in that time, five clients where I thought something doesn’t add up. But that’s out of hundreds.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:10)

can go on.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:35)

So yes it may happen maybe less than 1 % would fall asleep.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (13:41)

shitty lawyer using using it as their their lame defense to the perpetrator.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (13:47)

Yes.

 

Or someone that’s extremely unwell or someone who perhaps has a mother that is coaching them to say that. But I need to stress that is less than 1%. Disclosures. People often say, I mean, they’re called, ⁓ you’re a liar. that’s liars are only less than 1%. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:02)

Also. Yeah, okay.

 

extraordinary lot. I think we’ve put that one to bed. So looking at shame and we talked about shame in the introduction and I’d like to go there in some detail if we could. It’s one of the most persistent burdens that a survivor carries even though logically it should belong to the abuser not to the victim. Why

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (14:18)

Yeah.

 

Yes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (14:46)

does it attach itself so strongly to the person who’s been abused rather than the perpetrator?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (14:55)

Yeah, that’s such a tragedy because it keeps victim survivors silent. But it’s basically because the perpetrator uses power and control. The perpetrator always has more power. And therefore, they make the child or the young person or their wife or partner feel you are nothing, you are nobody, no one will believe you.

 

You are crazy and they themselves elevate themselves a bit like my grandfather and uncle. I am a pillar of society and no one will believe you. And that’s what I believed for 27 years. And it’s true, like some people did not believe me. Many people go, no, that can’t be true.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:48)

Were your perpetrators still alive when you called them out?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (15:54)

My uncle was, my grandfather had died.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (15:58)

How does that sit?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (16:00)

I will, I mean they have both passed away now and I feel freer for it and I feel happy that they can’t abuse any other kids. That’s the main thing I think. ⁓ I did confront my uncle, of course he denied it and perpetrators always deny it because the very thing that allows them to perpetrate abuse also allows them to lie.

 

and continue to try and use power over a victim survivor.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (16:33)

hence why it’s so difficult to shift that blame back to them from yourself. It really takes an intervention from somebody else to call it out and shift the blame.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (16:47)

Yeah, I remember when I was 20, I was probably 28 or 29, I decided I had this brainwave. I’d been in therapy for a couple of years and I said to my therapist, I’ve got a really great idea. I’m going to write to my uncle and confront him and then he’s going to say, sorry. And I believed that he would because I was still very naive and not as well informed as I am now. And she said,

 

let’s slow it down, I think we need to plan for this and think about it. But it was one of the times when I would not listen to her. I loved her, she was amazing, but I was like, no, I’m gonna do it. And I went home and I wrote that letter. We didn’t have email yet. I wrote the letter and I copied, made like, I think five copies for my parents, my aunt and my two brothers.

 

And I sent those to ⁓ those people and my uncle, I waited and waited for him to write back to me hoping he would say, I’m really sorry, I shouldn’t have done that. But of course he wrote back in his lawyerly ⁓ version of events saying, you have always been unstable. We know that you are crazy. You belong in a psychiatric hospital.

 

and I never touched a hair on your head. And if you continue to say this, I will prosecute you. And it sent me spiralling down for probably about six months. I was gutted. And I thought, you know, I went back to my therapist and I said, I should have listened to you. It was the worst idea for me to do that.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:41)

But did it then galvanise you after you hit rock bottom to go, I’m coming after you?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (18:49)

It did, absolutely. Yeah, I got strong again, but it took a while.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (18:51)

yet.

 

I can imagine. And there’s no guarantee that you can bounce back from that. That is an awful, awful thing to experience. I’m so sorry. Yeah.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:06)

Thank you. I’m fine now.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:10)

Your strength in talking about this suggests that you’ve got the upper hand in this story now. So, but if at any time this feels uncomfortable, you let me know. So, yeah. So women listening who are carrying trauma, Martina, without going into the clinical depths, because I appreciate you are now well,

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:25)

I

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (19:39)

educated in this. Could you talk us through what healing tends to involve?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (19:47)

Yeah, healing. ⁓ Healing involves, first of all, finding a safe person that will believe you and support you through the healing journey, who will walk alongside you, whether that’s a sister, a therapist, a mum, or an auntie, someone who is believing and supportive.

 

can be difficult for some people to find. Sometimes they have grown up in families where there is no safe person.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:25)

Is it a coincidence that you’ve called out only female profiles or is that how it always plays out in terms of finding that safe person? Could that-

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (20:37)

Yeah, of course it could. Of course it could. I should have said that. It may be a male therapist. It may be a brother. Yeah, absolutely. A best friend. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (20:47)

Okay, yeah. I think it’s probably important that we share that that be the case. We’re not pointing the finger at all men. ⁓

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (21:03)

Many men are very, very supportive and for example my husband who I’ve been with for 35 years, he has been my greatest support and has always believed me and believed in me.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (21:19)

Yeah, there we go. That’s a powerful thing to point out.

 

So I’d like to talk in a little bit more depth about perpetrators and there’s growing awareness that many abusers share common traits, particularly narcissistic behaviors. And there’ll be a crossover in DV in this as well. When you look at the work that you’ve done, are there similarities

 

in how perpetrators operate.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (21:58)

there are definitely similarities and there, I’ve talked about this a little bit earlier, they enjoy using power and control. They do not have empathy for their victims and that allows them to continue to perpetrate abuse, whether that’s domestic violence or sexual abuse or homicide. know, women,

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:08)

They have.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (22:27)

I think last year 75 women were killed in Australia by partners or ex-partners. they have this in common that they, yes, they have not, they do not have empathy for their victims or for their victims loved ones who are also damaged of course.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (22:38)

Thanks.

 

And we’ve already seen those numbers start to rise for 2026 already. haven’t got our processes in place to keep everybody safe yet.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (22:54)

Absolutely.

 

No, no,

 

and we keep, you know, I’m on my soapbox a bit, we put, ⁓ for example, people who have addictions, who have stolen a car and ⁓ been speeding, we put them in jail for five years. We put perpetrators of sexual abuse in jail for 18 months, if that, for six months.

 

or we give them good behaviour bonds or we let them out early for good behaviour. So the consequences are not the same as they are for other crimes that are far less harmful to the population.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (23:46)

They’re

 

certainly not aligned to the gravity of what they have perpetrated against somebody else. It wouldn’t be uncommon for survivors to say, know, what drew them to me? Why me? Was this my fault? I suspect self-blame is a big part of what a victim faces.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (24:16)

Yes, self-blame is something I always challenge. And I know for me, I felt a lot of self-blame. I’m crazy, I’m unhinged. I was crazy because I was sexually abused. And once I dealt with it, I was not, I realized I’m not crazy. was just deeply, deeply traumatized. You know, there’s the victim blaming typical, what was she wearing? Why were you out?

 

Yes. I was wearing pink pyjamas. I was wearing nappies. People of any age can get sexually abused. They might be wearing ⁓ a hospital gown.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:06)

Do we victim blame? What is behind that?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (25:08)

Because

 

we don’t want to know the truth about what happens behind closed doors. don’t want to, know, men still have the power. Men, we’re still living under a patriarchy where men have the power and we don’t, we’re scared to give women power. You know, it’s the, even the, the old story of Eve was made from Adam’s rib. No.

 

Adam was made from Eve’s womb. But we want to believe that it’s men that are the creators of everything, that are the powerful and smart ones.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (25:52)

That being said, are women ever the abusers?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (25:58)

Yes, are. can ⁓ be.

 

Yes, a small percentage of abusers are women and I think it’s really important to say that and to be aware of that. I have worked with ⁓ hundreds of sexually abused children and adults and probably perhaps 3 % have been ⁓ girls and women that have abused those people. So 3 to 5 %

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:31)

than I thought. Yeah. It’s higher than I thought. Yeah. And is that also about power?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (26:37)

Yes, it’s about power and control, same thing. Yeah. And it’s just as damaging ⁓ as if it was a boy or man.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:47)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (26:50)

I know we’ve seen that in the news this week haven’t you? We have. female teacher.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (26:56)

Yes,

 

that’s what prompted my question. Yeah. You’re listening to the Power of Women podcast and I’m talking with Dr. Martina Zenger who is a victim of child sexual abuse. And coming up, we’re going to hear about how she ends up at the infamous Rajneesh cult in the US.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Martina, many of my contemporaries will remember the Raj Nish movement and I do. was working in retail as a recent fashion graduate and I can remember this group of individuals.

 

constantly coming into my store, buying up everything that ever hit the racks that was in orange. And that was my first exposure. And it just seemed like this strange anomaly. But I remember the orange robes, I remember the Rolls Royces, and there was that infamous 60 minutes episode where one of the spokespeople for the cult said,

 

when challenged in an interview, they said tough titties and that was spoken by a woman. And that resonated and sticks in my mind from the time. And it was framed as a provocative counter-cultural, even a glamorous cult at that stage. I right in?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (28:23)

Yes

 

Yes, was a bit like a rock star. He was a very infamous, charismatic rock star guru.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (28:47)

Mmm.

 

There’s going to be an intersection here in what we’ve talked about previously about narcissistic behavior. I would suspect, yeah. So you encountered the Raj Nish at 19. Could you talk us through that and what you were looking for that led to that encounter?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (29:02)

Yes, very.

 

Yes.

 

Yes, so I had been very lost. I’d been to uni and dropped out in my first semester because I believed I was stupid, I can’t cope, I couldn’t handle adult life. I had no skills to handle adult life. So I was kind of drifting, working any job that I could get.

 

being a cleaner in a factory, working at Piermont fish markets, working as an assistant to a sports photographer, ⁓ working in a nursing home as an assistant in nursing, a sandwich hand. One job after another, ⁓ absolutely lost young woman between 17 and 19.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:04)

after another.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (30:13)

I then went and lived on a commune in the bush and I attended in Australia, yes. And at that commune, I attended a rebirthing workshop, which I wouldn’t really recommend people do. at that rebirthing workshop,

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (30:22)

Yeah.

 

even at saying that. mean we’ve seen more recent TV shows with Nine Perfect Strangers I think is the one that resonates in my mind now of how wrong that can go.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (30:50)

It

 

can go very wrong. I attended that workshop and I met a couple there who were Rajneeshis. They were wearing pink and red and purple and orange. They were wearing their necklaces, their beaded necklaces with the locket of his photo around their necks. And they gave me one of his books and that particular book was called My Way.

 

The Way of the White Clouds. And I read that book. They were going to, two days later they were travelling to America to live on his ashram, which was a 64,000 acre ashram in Oregon. Massive.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (31:38)

65,000 acre. I come from the country. I understand land math. That is enormous.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (31:43)

enormous, enormous. And so they looked so blissful. They were amazing. I just looked up to them, admired them, and I wanted what they had. I wanted that confidence, that smiling piece that detached happiness because I had none of that. So I devoured the book and

 

I devoured it in 24 hours and then decided I’m going to become a Rajneji too. And I moved back to Sydney to live near the ashram. They had an ashram in Darlinghurst. Yes, yeah, there was an ashram on the street.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:25)

is that right?

 

The

 

disenfranchised is such a successful strategy. There it is, laid bare.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (32:37)

Yes,

 

yes. I was so naive and I was such a needy young woman looking for, ⁓ looking to be saved by someone or something because I could not help myself.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (32:53)

Wow. And you then went to the US yourself?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (32:58)

I did, yes, so I had to save up madly because you had to have, it was an expensive cult to be part of.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:07)

You had to sustain this huge acreage.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (33:10)

Exactly. So we had to pay $8,000 to be there for a year. And that year we’re in 1981. So that was a lot of money in 1981. There was no way I could save that up doing making sandwiches.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:22)

That’s all.

 

You’ve been doing all of these odd jobs

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (33:33)

Yes, so I met another Rajneeshi. She lived across the road from me in Darlinghurst and she said, yes, I said to her, I need to make money because I want to go and live over there, which all of us wanted to do. That was the Holy Grail to live with him. And she said, ⁓ I’ve got a really great idea for you. I work in a brothel.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (33:41)

I they even existed.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:02)

and they’re always looking for people. It’s the easiest job in the world. Why don’t you try it? And I thought, yep, I’m going to do it. She said, you can make $500 a night. And that was in 1981.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:18)

The price of sex, it’s an expensive pursuit.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:22)

Yes. I went the next day for an interview and I was a real hippie. I didn’t wear makeup. had, I remember the ⁓ guy who interviewed me, he was a lovely gay guy and he said, just take off your clothes. Let me have a look at you. Cause I was wearing like baggy. ⁓ And I took my clothes off and I remember I was wearing like really sad, baggy cotton undies.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (34:43)

Big deal.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (34:52)

And he just shook his head. He goes, you’ve got to go and go next door and buy some really nice lingerie from, what was it called? ⁓ It’ll come to me. It was a really fancy, ⁓ the house of Maryvale. It was a few doors down in Pitt Street, yeah, in the city of Sydney.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:08)

Good heavens. Yes. It was next door to the house.

 

Angel Bar, House of Maryvale, right in the centre of town. Those who aren’t necessarily from Australia or Sydney-siders, the positioning of that is like centre of town anywhere in the world.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (35:22)

Right in the center. ⁓

 

center

 

of town exactly. And so he said go and get yourself some lingerie and this will be your uniform and you can start tomorrow.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (35:46)

Mind you, that is bloody expensive lingerie for somebody with no money who’s had odd jobs and is trying to look good for a stranger. mean… ⁓

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (35:57)

Absolutely, it killed my bank account. Yeah

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:01)

I have no doubt.

 

There’s so many things wrong with that story, Martina. It’s like… So many things wrong with it.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (36:08)

you

 

Yes, so I started working there the following day. I was scared but so desperate to get to America, to the Guru that that overrode everything. It overrode my sense of this is dangerous, I’m scared.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (36:35)

So how long did you work at the brothel before you made that money?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (36:41)

Yeah, so I worked there for 18 months. I could have saved it up much quicker, but I then went on spending sprees because having all that money was so, it was so infectious and addictive that I would, you know, I would see a purple satin maxi dress halter neck and go, I want that. And I would buy it at the house of Maryvale.

 

⁓ I was having expensive hairdos and I was all of that stuff because I was young and silly. I wanted those things. So that’s why it took much longer than it should have. I was sending 10 to 20 percent of my income to the ashram, ⁓ which was what we were, it was tithing. It was tithing a bit like in churches where you tithe 10 percent of your income.

 

So that also drained the funds significantly. And I did workshops, I did these stupid Rajneesh workshops that were supposed to heal us. And they were expensive too. So yes, took a bit longer than I…

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:02)

So what year did you land at the ashram?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (38:07)

I

 

think it was 1982. 1982, yes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:10)

Yeah, right

 

What a very different contrast in what I was doing to the journey you were going through. But so many people be able to put a line in the sand and say, what did my life look like at that point in time? And it’s such a contrast. So you got there in 1982. How long before the penny dropped that this whole thing was a ruse?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (38:38)

Yeah, look, unfortunately it took eight whole years and it’s a bit like a bad marriage. I stayed in it hoping that things would get better. I stayed because I was committed to this path, this spiritual path that I believed would heal me. I believed that if I was on this path, I never had to

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (38:50)

in beta.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:07)

deal with my past with the sexual abuse, I would just be magically healed by the Guru and by the

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:14)

Did it ever come up in any of your workshops? it ever?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:17)

It did actually, but then I would just push it down. I would push it down very quickly. I did. You did. I did, yeah. And they, I mean, they would have too, but I would come up and I would just say, no, don’t talk about it.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:23)

You did all they did.

 

Yeah. Do you know why?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:39)

Shame. Again, was the shame. I’m dirty. I’m damaged goods. I’m a mess. I’m fucked up.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:47)

Yeah.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (39:49)

Yeah,

 

I wanted to be this spiritual shiny girl.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (39:54)

Yeah. So how did you, what was the tipping point to say this is not right and how did you extract yourself from that incredibly powerful hold that they had over you? Yeah.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (40:11)

So when I first got there I was so excited but very quickly I realized things are not ⁓ gonna be as I imagined them to be. So I was driven by a lovely Rajneesh man to my new home which was a little cute, the cutest little A-frame.

 

wooden A-frame and I just thought my god I’m going to be so happy here. But when I went into the A-frame I realised I had to share it with two other people. It was a tiny room, a tiny room with three mattresses on the floor with hardly any room to between the mattresses to walk and that was my home for 18 months and we had to work seven days a week

 

12 hours a day, there was no day of rest, no day for fun. ⁓ And I worked as a member of the pipe crew, was called the pipe crew, was, we were digging ditches in the desert, the Oregonian desert. And the ditches were like quite thin ditches and we laid irrigation pipes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:29)

I was going to say you were doing the work to sustain the property.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (41:34)

Absolutely. We growing all the vegetables, all the fruit, all the trees. And I was shocked that I was so shocked. It was a hard job. Like digging with a pickaxe is really hard. A pickaxe and a shovel. So yes, it was a…

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (41:55)

He

 

was on to a good thing while it lasted. Bloody hell! Yeah!

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (42:01)

And the reason I finally left there, I just want to add one thing before that. He was at that time in silence, so he didn’t speak. He used to give sermons, but he had stopped speaking publicly because he said, I’ve said everything I need to say and I’m tired of talking, so I’m not talking. instead of talking.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (42:25)

Before

 

I’m gonna get myself into more litigious shit if I keep going

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (42:31)

Yes, absolutely. So at that time, we only saw him at what was called drive-by, which was he would drive past us in one of his 84 Rolls Royces every day after lunch. And we would line up on the side of the road. 2,000 followers would line up with our hands in namaste and wait for him to drive by and

 

look at us and wave at us and we would jump up and down, we would play musical instruments and be so excited to see him.

 

Yes.

 

Adoring. Thank God it ended. eventually he went back to India because he was deported from America. He went back to India to his original ashram and I went there three times in the time that I was part of the Rajneesh movement. The third time I went

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (43:39)

Is that what happened?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (43:58)

there was a really tragic event which actually allowed me to leave him and break up with the cult. And that was that his girlfriend, he had had this girlfriend called Vivek, a beautiful, beautiful English woman who had been his girlfriend since she was 18. She was the person I most aspired to be.

 

I thought she was the luckiest woman alive because she lived with him. She was always in the Rolls Royce with him in the front seat, the passenger seat. And yet there was a deep unhappiness in her and she actually died by suicide while I was there in India. The poor, poor woman. And he ⁓ told us we were not allowed to go to the funeral. She had done the most…

 

the most ⁓ gutless thing anyone could do and we would not speak about her again. is how he framed it. And that woke me up. just went, I am so angry that no one has compassion for this poor, beautiful woman, Vivek.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:14)

Was

 

there age power play in this? How old was

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:16)

Oh god yeah.

 

She would have been, she would have been 25 and he would have been 50.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:25)

So it’s exactly where we started the conversation.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:29)

Yes, exactly.

 

And it was that day that I went into town, into Pune, and I bought my ticket home and I left the cult and I changed my name back to Martina. Yeah, from India. And that was it. I never looked back.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (45:49)

How will?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (45:49)

Yeah,

 

that was, I was 27. So I was a Rajneji from 19 to 27. It’s a long time.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:00)

No wonder you had to write a memoir, Martina, because there is a lot of lived experience to put down, but it’s the same thread. It’s the same repetitive thread just in different settings. mean, it’s movie worthy. It’s extraordinary.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (46:24)

Yes, yeah if anyone wants to know more about the cult there’s a really good Netflix series called Wild Wild Country and it’s really worth watching because it’s about the ashram in Oregon the $64,000, $64,000 acre ashram. yeah it’s worth watching.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (46:43)

Yeah. Yeah, right.

 

Say that title again for us.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (46:50)

Wild, wild country. W-I-L-D, yeah, wild, wild country. It’s actually not completely, ⁓ it’s still the people that they interview ⁓ are all people that still love the Guru. So it’s skewed towards.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:13)

So is it documentary?

 

⁓

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (47:16)

It’s a documentary which has some propaganda but you can also see through it. Yeah, but the Rajneeshis, their interview are still Rajneeshis. I wish they had also interviewed… No, he passed away. He passed away. They don’t know. They said, I think they said heart failure but some people say he also… ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:22)

Okay.

 

He’s no longer with us.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (47:46)

⁓ He chose euthanasia and that his doctor gave him a lethal injection. But I don’t know.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (47:57)

So without going into detail, there’s often solidarity in ⁓ women in marginalised or high risk environments, which is what I suspect you found in the sex work. Absolutely. again, in the cult. Very much so.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (48:18)

Yes,

 

it’s a absolutely.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (48:21)

call it a cult. What

 

from your personal and professional experience matters so much about this camaraderie that you find in these most extraordinary settings?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (48:36)

Yes, I mean the women at the brothel, were beautiful to me. They were just lovely because I was younger than them and they were much more experienced at their work than I was. They took me under their wing and I loved being around them. They were very funny. They they looked out for each other. They looked out for me. I looked out for them as well.

 

And I’ve always loved women ⁓ and felt very comfortable with women. I just felt very at home with them and cared for. If I had a bad client, they would always debrief with me afterwards and care for me. ⁓ So that was really important. At the ashram, I had…

 

really good, I made really good friends on the pipe crew. We were a gang of people who had a lot of fun together.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (49:42)

It

 

just, I can’t get my head around it on a gang on the pipe crew. It’s like chain gang stuff. It’s bizarre. Just bizarre. all jokes aside, this ⁓ choice of women to support women in these extraordinary settings is incredibly powerful. And something that

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (49:52)

Yes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (50:11)

you know, I harp on about in Power of Women. It’s not always found and you found it in extraordinary settings to be plentiful.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (50:24)

Yes, absolutely. And I already had found it as a girl, as a child. found, because my own mother had a mental illness and was very suicidal and absent because she had been abused by the same two men, her father and her brother. So she was not a good mum. She was very troubled. This was generational.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (50:27)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (50:52)

⁓

 

I found very early on, I found girlfriends whose mothers took me under their wing. I would visit them, I would hang out there, I would stay weekends. I would be away from home as much as possible and those mothers and girls really loved me. I think I was a lovable kid. Thank God I was a lovable kid. And so I did always have loving women who

 

I think they sensed that things were not okay at home. And even though I hid it and would never talk about it, and they cared for me, which is very fortunate. And funny enough, I’ve done the same thing with my daughter. I’ve cared for her girlfriends ⁓ who also some of them have had difficult childhoods.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (51:47)

Yeah, there’s the positive aspect of that you have traveled. So at what point do you see women moving from surviving their past to authoring their future? Is there a profound point on the continuum that that happens?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (51:51)

Absolutely.

 

think it doesn’t happen straight away which is really hard because you want that healing so desperately once you embark on the path of healing, once you start therapy or once you disclose it to your best friend and yet it takes, I think it takes at least a couple of years to find some strength, some power and strength to ⁓ believe in yourself, to let go of the shame.

 

and to have a voice. And that is a long time to wait. I remember I used to say to my beautiful therapist, you know, how much longer until I feel better? And it took, I think it took a couple of years. Yes, yes. And I was very committed. And I think, you know, some other people, some other women can’t be committed because they don’t have the money to go to therapy. Or they have

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (52:57)

It’s a string.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:11)

four kids at home and they don’t have the time to go to therapy or they don’t have a car to get there.

 

Yeah, so it takes time and patience. And money, absolutely.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (53:23)

and money.

 

Yeah. Wow! Is your book on the shelves already?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:32)

Yes it is, it came out in September last year and it’s on the shelves and it’s also available on Amazon and on Kindle.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (53:41)

Yeah, what a read. What a read. Could you just, the title is…

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (53:46)

Not My Shame. Not My Shame. that is, I chose that title because at the time Giselle Pellicot in France was talking about, with her court case, she was talking about shame must change sides. And that’s why I chose that title, yes.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (54:11)

What a profound point in time to bring it up, because that was one of the most terrific cases anywhere in the world that any of us could ever have heard about.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (54:23)

and yet what a strong woman she is.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (54:25)

Absolutely. And I’m assuming listeners know the story we’re talking about, but it was the woman who was repeatedly abused by strangers ⁓ for years as a result of her husband drugging her and running it as an enterprise. just one of the darkest examples of a perpetrator one could ever even imagine. So yeah.

 

I’m going to close with a couple of rapid fire questions today, Martina.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:01)

Okay.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:02)

what something survivors are really told but should be.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:09)

The most important thing is for a survivor to hear is, I believe you. And also, secondly, it’s not your fault. It’s the perpetrator’s fault. They’re very powerful statements.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:24)

Very powerful, they give me goosebumps listening to you say them just now. What’s one assumption about trauma that does more harm than good?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:36)

that you can never heal, that you’ll always be damaged. And we can heal and we will have relief from the damage of abuse.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (55:49)

Yep, great affirmation. If a woman listening right now is still blaming herself, what do want her to hear?

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (55:58)

I want her to hear that it is not her fault and that there is help available and maybe we can put some things in the show notes. There is help available, there is actually free help available for those who don’t, who can’t afford therapy ⁓ and they don’t have to walk this path alone.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (56:23)

Absolutely. Martina, thank you so much for what is just the most extraordinary conversation today about your own personal experience and the incredibly informative information that you’ve shared for somebody who has been through this horrendous trauma of sexual abuse and in particular child sexual abuse and how to…

 

⁓ approach that as part of a journey of healing and shifting that shame from oneself to perpetrator. And to your point, absolutely, I will ask you to share with me some links that we can put into the show notes for our listeners. ⁓ And that then becomes something powerful that they can also pass on and share the episode with somebody that

 

they believe really does need to listen to a conversation such as the one that we’ve had today. as unfortunate as it is, there are plenty of victims out there who are yet to face into the healing journey, I suspect. And hopefully this goes some way to…

 

identifying a roadmap for somebody to pursue to start that path.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (57:54)

Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, and for the opportunity to have a chat with you.

 

DI GILLETT [HOST] (58:02)

my absolute privilege. Thank you, Martina. Until next time.

 

DR MARTINA ZANGGER [GUEST] (58:06)

Thank you, Di.

Chapters:

00:00 Rage and Hope: The Duality of Healing

01:53 Childhood Trauma: A Hidden Reality

05:57 The Journey to Disclosure

09:46 The Importance of Safe Spaces

14:02 Shame: The Silent Burden

18:13 Confronting the Past

21:58 Understanding Perpetrators

25:58 The Role of Women in Healing

30:04 The Rajneesh Cult Experience

38:02 Breaking Free from the Cult

46:00 Empowerment Through Storytelling

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Martina at:

Website https://martinazangger.com.au/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-martina-zangger-9b29874a/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/martinazangger/

 

Resources [Australia]:

Free Services for victim-survivors:

https://victimsservices.justice.nsw.gov.au (22 free counselling sessions for victims of crime NSW)

1800RESPECT: 1800 737 732 (free DV and SA counselling 24 hours)

https://www.thesurvivorhub.org.au (free monthly peer support group)

https://bravehearts.org.au (Bravehearts: Free counselling for victims of CSA)

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

 

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Disclaimer:  https://powerofwomen.com.au/podcast-disclaimer/

The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

by | Dec 8, 2025 | Female Author, Female Empowerment, Visibility

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Carlii Lyon joins Di Gillett to discuss her book Courage to Be – Small Steps for a Big Life, and to explore what it really takes to put yourself out there and the 3 thoughts that keep you invisible.

Former international publicist Carlii Lyon spent years building other people’s brands, from supermodel Miranda Kerr to global icons before realising she had become invisible herself.

Carlii unpacks these three universal thoughts that hold people back, how Future Self Psychology helps you act for the person you’re becoming, and why intuition might just be your most underrated leadership skill.

You’ll Hear:

  • The three universal thoughts that hold people back from visibility
  • How to build a purpose-driven personal brand using the four P’s: Promise, Packaging, Position, Promotion
  • The difference between positional influence and personal influence
  • Why “we” language often keeps women small
  • How to start before you’re ready and why intuition is your edge.

Key learnings:

  • Visibility is not vanity – it’s vitality
  • Start before you’re ready – there’s magic in action
  • Intuition is your inner intelligence – create quiet to hear it
  • Think of your career as a brand partnership with the organisation you represent.

Carlii said:

“When we have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives.”

“Most people think if their work’s good enough, it will be seen. It won’t – you have to promote it.”

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (00:03)

Well, it’s a fear factor. Worry of how they’ll be judged. It’s, you know, there’s that idea of if I put my head, what’s the saying, if I put my head over the- the parapet. Yes, you know, I’m gonna be shot down.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (00:25)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs. Those moments that often don’t make the headlines but

 

absolutely should. So join the conversation and please subscribe wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts and be part of the power of women community.

 

What does it really take to be seen? Not just for what you do, but for who you are. Today’s guest knows a thing or two about visibility and what it really takes to put yourself out there. Carlii Lyon is a former international publicist who represented some of the most recognizable names in the world. From supermodel Miranda Kerr to bestselling authors,

 

and global brands like Microsoft and Volvo. Carlii has also just released her book, Courage to Be, the ultimate guide for anyone to step out from behind the scenes, embrace visibility, and live a bigger life. Carlii Lyon, welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (01:57)

Thank you so much, Di. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:02)

You’re most welcome. Carlii, you have so eloquently described yourself as a high school dropout who started her PR agency at 21, which at that point is such a brave move. How did you start your business from that base and how did you build this incredible client base?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:26)

Yeah, well from dropping out of school or being politely asked to leave at 15. At 15? At 15, yeah. it was a school. I did everything. Everything you could consider a naughty teenager to do, I ticked it off the list. Like I was a high achiever.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:40)

KARA.

 

You look like the picture of angelic behaviour.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:56)

⁓ thank you. Well, I hope my teenage boys believe that as well, but I promise I wasn’t at that point. So from 15 to 21, when you think of it, that’s a seven year gap of being out in the world. And my dad said to me when I left school, he said, well, if you’re not going back to school, you have to work. And the next day I…

 

started an apprenticeship as a hairdresser because I was determined not to go back to school. So I did go out into the world of work for quite a while as a hairdresser and I did waitressing and all of those wonderful things that you tend to do, you know, as you’re deciding what you want to do as a grownup. So that was a long time out in the world working. So it definitely wasn’t

 

You know, I see 21 year olds today that are coming straight out of uni and the idea of starting a business straight out of uni whilst there are definitely some that are brave enough to do that. I feel like because I had seven years out in the world, it made it a lot easier. It’s, it is a runway. It is a runway. And I always looked older than I was. Which made it. No, no, no.

 

Thank you. take that as a compliment. But in terms of how did I launch the business, I’ll give you a real abridged version. I had a gentleman who’s still my mentor today say to me, Kali, I think you’d be good in PR. And just based off that one comment, I did go and enroll to study PR and six months

 

into my study, I naively perhaps or bravely thought I can do better than even what my teachers sound like they’re doing because they didn’t really they weren’t very engaged or they didn’t seem that excited. And so I just went out and started building a clientele base. And before I even finished that diploma, I had my business.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (05:12)

Wow. There you go. So yeah, I gotta say some of that naughty teenager had some real spice and some kick behind it. So well done.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (05:15)

Yeah, I was determined.

 

Absolutely. I think there is definitely a place in the world for a rebellious streak and not waiting, starting before you’re ready, doing the things that people tell you you can’t do. And I will also add at that point, I did have a big motivation to get out into the world and share the message of wellness because I had gone through my own personal transformation of

 

going from being a party girl and a rebel with no cause and doing lots of destructive things to being an aspiring health and wellness guru after I spent two months at a health retreat. So I did also have this real passion and fire to get that message out there. And I think when you have that passion, fire,

 

and you’re willing to just do whatever it takes. There’s real magic in that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (06:40)

Mm-hmm. what you’re talking about and what you’re specializing in now, but you established a reputation as a PR professional for building other brands.

 

before realising that you yourself were becoming invisible, something that has been put to me of late, I’m very interested in this one. I love talking about reinvention. Tell me about yours, because how did you realise that that was not working and you were disappearing as others were coming forward?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (07:19)

I didn’t realize how invisible I was or had become until I went on extended maternity leave. So I was out in the world, as you said, building other people’s brands for well over a decade and doing so many amazing things all over the world for these amazing people. Then I went on extended maternity leave and I went from having this global PR fast paced career.

 

to being at home with two babies under two, two beautiful boys under two. And I was so happy and felt incredibly privileged that I was able to do that. And it wasn’t until the end of that where my boys started to go back to, or started daycare, excuse me, and I started contemplating, okay, so what is my next step going to be?

 

It was at that junction where I thought, my God, really, through all of those years, I didn’t necessarily really nurture my, my network. I definitely hadn’t put myself out there in any constructive way. I even reflected on moments where I had been approached by the media, being this young woman in business, representing these amazing people.

 

Asked to be interviewed myself and I remember distinctly calling one of my clients and saying, I’ve been approached by this magazine, which by the way, media doesn’t generally reach out to you. You have to be the one reaching, which I think is an important point to make. And I called my client and said, do you, do you think I should do it? Do you mind if I do it? Like I was asking permission and almost validation from my clients. So.

 

That was the moment for me, Di, that I was like, my God, what am I, what was I waiting for? What held me back? Why didn’t I do that when I was clearly doing it for everyone else? What was it that I felt it wasn’t relevant to me? And in that moment, I just, suppose I realized, if I was thinking like that,

 

then I imagine a lot of people out in the world are feeling exactly the same way.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (09:48)

So there’s a difference between visibility and currency. market, the market was saying you had currency because they, they were coming to you wanting to be interviewed, but you, you were challenging the personal visibility piece of stepping forward yourself instead of putting one of your brands out front and you do the behind the, behind the scenes work. Am I right in qualifying? Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (10:17)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I always put it in the terms of I had a lot of positional influence. So just by proximity of working with the clients that I was working with, I had positional influence. And if I’m really honest, that did go to my head and it was a false economy because I thought, well, I’m influential because

 

I was getting all of the benefits of representing influential clients and how that shows up today for a lot of my clients that I’m working with who are not necessarily high profile. They’re not in that world of talent and entertainment. They’re executives. Yeah. But how that shows up for them, they’re working for some of the biggest brands in the world. And so they also have a lot of positional influence when they walk into boardrooms.

 

They’re bolstered up by the fact that they’re representing these huge brands. They are also operating in a false economy because it only takes for you to step out of that, which I did in maternity leave to go, ⁓ that was all based on my position. It wasn’t personal influence.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (11:31)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And it’s interesting because I often have the dialogue in individuals working in the consulting world who build their own portfolio, but under the auspices of a big brand. The biggest issue for those big brands is when those individuals become a brand within themselves, their organization. And then, you know, the

 

big banner over the door has to ask who’s walking through the door, the brand that they work for or brand personal brand. And that’s brilliant for the individual, but not necessarily brilliant for the organization who employs you. So it can happen.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (12:17)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, I think that’s a really fair statement. And I have definitely heard of cases where there is that sense of confusion where there’s an individual who’s really getting out there and doing things. And whilst they are working with a big brand, they’re becoming a brand themselves. And I understand that perhaps it’s something you need to be mindful of. But in my experience, it’s

 

Usually the opposite way is that the the individual is not doing anything and there’s it’s an anomaly for it to be the other way where the individuals doing so much that it becomes a problem. So there is obviously a need for mindfulness and understanding what’s the operating model that you’re working within you know I do know there are brands that they absolutely frown upon any form of.

 

self-promotion and personal brand. And I always say to clients and individuals, if you are going into that scenario, then you’re going into that scenario with open eyes. the ideal situation and mindset that I try to promote in the clients that I work with is I want them to start thinking of themselves as being in brand partnership.

 

with the brands they work for. So rather than it being a case of the brand, yeah, and the brands up here and I’m just this little cog in the machine. When you take that step of no, I’m in brand partnership with the brand doesn’t make you automatically the spokesperson for the brand, but it’s an energetic shift. And you start to realize that

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (13:53)

out.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (14:13)

And also start to be mindful of, how can I use this positional influence to my own benefit as well? Because you’re giving so much of your time and energy to the role, to the company. I think that’s only a fair part of the equation is what can you also leverage in, in that, in building the asset that is your personal brand? Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (14:20)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, yeah, I love that framing of it. So you also write, and I think this is a direct quote, that when you have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives. So if that be the case, why does so many women and even the most accomplished amongst us struggle with being seen?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:09)

Well, it’s a fear factor. It’s a ⁓ worry of how they’ll be judged.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (15:21)

It’s… It keeps coming up.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:22)

Yeah.

 

It’s it’s you know there’s that idea of if I put my head what’s the saying if I put my head over the. Yes, you know I’m going to be shot down.

 

Yeah, there, if we’re speaking specifically about women, there is this, they tend to be the ones who are more collaborative. And even I’ve seen, even just recently, what comes to mind is I was, I had the privilege of sitting in, in a boardroom session where there were a group of emerging leaders.

 

presenting to a group of senior leaders and their opportunity was presented to them to have a moment where they really, you know, were able to highlight their achievements and put the spotlight on what they’ve been doing. And it was a, there was a combination of male executive emerging leaders and also female. And I was sitting there quietly on the sidelines watching as this unfolded and the men got up.

 

and talked about their achievements and there was a lot of mention of I did this, my vision was this, et cetera. And then the women got up and it was, we did this, we did that. And there was no claiming their fame, no I. And I have to say when they left the room and then the senior leaders were reflecting and making their comments.

 

It does get noticed when you’re not confidently claiming your fame and owning your achievements. So whilst there might be a hesitation because, or, you know, I don’t want to be seen as the one who’s the tall poppy and I don’t want to be seen as big noting myself. There’s also negative connotations. If you are being so humble, you are coming across as being.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:34)

Mmm.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (17:38)

you know, more meek and that’s not impressive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:41)

Yeah, it’s so true, Carlii. I told a story only recently of an organisation several decades ago where I had to go through a assessment centre to get in and there was about 30 of us in this assessment centre and at the end of the day, we’re all sitting around this massively extended boardroom table and we were given a topic and a couple of seconds to prepare and speak.

 

Hmm. 30 of us presenting and 29 of those individuals gave their presentation whilst seated in the position that they were seated at the table. I was the only one who stood up two decades or three decades ago, went and stood at the head of the table and presented with a level of authority from the head of the table.

 

and I was the only one out of 30 who got selected to join the organisation.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (18:46)

Amazing. You know that gave me goosebumps then. ⁓ really? Yeah it actually did because you know it represents something it’s so powerful and it’s so inspiring and for all the reasons why women don’t necessarily do it on the flip side of that when you do it like I’m sure

 

the 29 others, whilst there might’ve been a few that were like, God, who does she think she is? Cause there will always be a few of those. Without question, they exist everywhere. But then there would’ve been others in there that would’ve gone, wow, like I wanna be like her. I wish I did that. And you gave them permission to do that in the next opportunity. But it’s, that’s, I love that. I love that story.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (19:16)

Without qu-

 

that all I wish.

 

We will come back to that point, Carlii, because there is a risk, as to the phrase you were referencing before, putting your head up above the parapet. But we’ll come back to that, because I think that’s an important point. But let’s talk about the three universal thoughts individuals struggle with on the line to putting themselves out there. You’ve clearly…

 

defined what those three universal thoughts. Can you talk us through that? And if they hold us back either from visibility or opportunity or both.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (20:17)

Yes. So I wrote an article about these three thoughts and this article on LinkedIn went crazy viral, like crazy, crazy viral. And I always say, I believe that article went viral to the extent that it did because everyone could see themselves in these three thoughts. And the reason I wrote the article and I wanted to put these three thoughts in black and white was I

 

started coaching individuals one-on-one. I realized they were all having these same three thoughts. But even more importantly for myself and my own sense of development, I had thought that these three thoughts were personal to me, that I was the only one thinking them. And when I realized everyone was thinking them, I thought, okay, I’ve got to get these out in the world because if we know that they’re just

 

thoughts that everyone has we don’t take them so personally and we can override. The impact that these thoughts have okay so here they are. The first one is who am I to speak and this comes from a place of us being completely unable to see ourselves truly objectively and the things that we know the things that we’ve done.

 

The person that we are, we don’t necessarily value to the same extent as what we do when we look at others or we hear about what others are doing. So this, am I to speak? Everyone feels the same. And this thought is in the minds of some of the people that you would never assume. Like that have got all the.

 

accolades and all of the not accolades, excuse me, credibility is the better word, but they still think that they shouldn’t speak. The next one is I’m not saying anything new. So why would anyone care? And this is especially relevant when people start putting themselves out there and sharing their thought leadership and their stories. There’s this sense of, well, if I’m not saying anything new,

 

And groundbreaking and never heard before then it’s irrelevant no one will care and. You know if and i’m sure a lot of your listeners are avid readers if you happen to. Especially in the non-fiction realm if you happen to follow a particular topic so in my case i love researching about influence and body language and these sorts of subjects.

 

And the honest truth is, Di, everyone’s saying the same thing, but they’re just saying it slightly differently through their own tone of voice, through their stories in, you know, in their realm of experience. But they’re all saying the same thing. So if ever you’re questioning, I’m not saying anything new, so why would anyone care? I want you to think of your favourite non-fiction book.

 

And imagine, imagine if that author had have held themselves back by thinking that. Like it would, the world would miss out on that. And then the last thought is everyone will think I have a big ego. So this worry of, you know, if I put myself out there, people are going to be thinking, or who does she think she is or who does he think he is?

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (23:50)

You

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (24:01)

And yes, like we just said, those people absolutely exist in the world. But my experience tells me that those people are just so afraid of putting themselves out there that when they see someone else do it, it makes them intimidated.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (24:19)

Those points are absolutely brilliant. So I reflect back to the 30-something year old who stood up at the head of a boardroom table and landed themselves a job by being bolshe. And I don’t know whether I did that in a considered sense or it was just an innate thing that that’s what I did. And I think it’s more the latter than the former. Only very recently,

 

coming to the realization through somebody poking the bear that I needed to be more visible as a brand to promote the Power Of Women Podcast. In so doing and putting myself out there, all three of those things enter my mind at some point in time every week.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:10)

Yep.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:11)

with all the confidence in the world, I still reflect on those points.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:17)

Yep, they are universal. And my favorite author, Steven Pressfield, who wrote an exceptional book called The War of Art. He talks about how in the universe there is a force that he calls the resistance and the resistance exists in the universe to stop us from doing the things that we’re meant to do, from being the person that we truly in our heart and soul want to be.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:28)

Yes.

 

Yep.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:47)

And so I see these three thoughts as a form of resistance now. And when you

 

almost create a bit of distance and you can hear the thought pop up and know that it’s just resistance. It’s everyone feels like this. Every single person that you see out in the world at whatever level they’re at, they are having the same thoughts.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:17)

Maybe it’s a saline-relating dose so that we don’t get too gushy. Maybe.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:23)

Maybe. Yeah, absolutely, maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:28)

Whether

 

it’s fully on or just slightly on.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:31)

Yeah, maybe it will stop us from all becoming crazy egomaniacs who think that we’re too god-like and do everything.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:42)

A few

 

people I could name globally who might not have these thoughts that we could run. It is, so maybe it is. So you encourage readers to embrace the life-changing magic of, of I, and it doesn’t escape my notice, Carlii, that you have two I’s in your spelling of Carlii. So my first question is, have, did you always, was that the name you were given?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:47)

Maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:12)

and the second it wasn’t you that

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:14)

No,

 

was not the name I was given. consulted with a… I mean, this was in my 20s. I consulted with a very well-known… I asked. Yes. I know. It’s funny, the other day I was walking with one of my closest friends, and she’s a newer friend in my life.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:31)

Do this.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:44)

She never knew that I changed my name. She was like, I never knew this. How could you know? So it’s a good pick up die. But I did, I consulted with a famous numerologist who unfortunately has passed away and he was known as a numerologist to specialize in names because in terms of the world of numerology, everything can be… ⁓

 

It can turn into a number. all of the letters. Yes. So I don’t know if you know much about numerology. When you look at your name in total. ⁓ okay. Perfect. So I had my name done and I changed. I was born with Carlii with a Y. So I did add the two, I’s and I changed my middle name and my surname.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:16)

Yeah.

 

and your surname. ⁓ There’s the rebellious kid coming back. How did that go down? How did mom and dad services, this is pre-marriage or post-marriage?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:44)

I’m

 

This is pre-marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:55)

How

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:57)

Well, Lion, so my mother’s maiden name is Lions with an S. He dropped the S because apparently that was not good for the numbers. So there was still a nod to mom and dad. My dad was upset in the beginning that I had changed, but he soon came around.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:02)

Yes. Yeah. Cause I was also good. Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:25)

Old school and he’s has an Italian background. And then what was funny is I married an Italian and even though in Italy women don’t change their names. My husband was a little bit more old school and he did want me to take his name, but I didn’t. So I know. So every time we’d go to a wedding, he’d be like, see, she took their name or blah, blah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:44)

Bye!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:52)

So it took him a while to get his head around it. you know, I am a personal, obviously a personal brand. I live and breathe personal branding and my name is my name. Like it’s my name, it’s my identity. So I couldn’t imagine changing it even for marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (30:09)

Yeah, they go. And as I say, I’m so glad I asked you that because every time I put your name down, think must remember to ask Karla. Because the point of distinction is a powerful one. And I got married at ⁓ 40 years of age also to a European whose surname was far more renowned in the public domain than mine. But I didn’t.

 

Yeah. ⁓ Sorry.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (31:01)

Okay, perfect.

 

You can lean on it then. can use it. That’s even better. You’ve got two options now.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (31:09)

Yeah,

 

so there you go. So I’m talking with former international publicist, turned speaker and executive coach Carlii Lyon, Carlii with a double I. And coming up, we’re going to talk about putting yourself out there and trusting your intuition. If you’re loving the Power Of Women Podcast, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel.

 

and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Carlii, you talk about future self-psychology as a powerful concept based around imagining who we want to become. Could you tell us a little bit about what future self-psychology is and how we use or can use this framework to shape our personal brand?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (32:03)

I didn’t even know that future self-psychology was actually an area of psychology and there are a few key pioneers in this space and when I first came across the research and the thinking, quite frankly, I was just blown away and it made so much intuitive sense which

 

You know, which is why you barely even really need to explain it. But in a snapshot, what future self psychology is, is using the power of perspective and even in some ways, your imagination of thinking about your future self and using that to your advantage. So I’ll give you an example. There is a gentleman by the name of

 

Hal Hirschfield, who is a professor at UCLA and he did a TED talk on this and a lot of his work centers around this idea of future self-psychology. And in his case, he’s talking about how it impacts decision-making and behavior. And what he did in one of his research studies was he got a group of students together. They were all given a digital avatar and invited to go into a virtual reality.

 

And one half of the students was given a digital avatar that looks like who they were today. And the other half of the students were given a digital avatar that was digitally enhanced to look like who they would be in 40 years time. so you see in his Ted talk, he actually shows clips of these students going into this digital realm and looking at themselves in the mirror.

 

And at the end of their journey, they had to come back, sit down and answer some questions. In this case, it was around financial decision-making. And what they found was that the individuals who went in and saw themselves effectively in 40 years time, they committed to saving, I believe it was 20 or 30 % more.

 

Then the individuals who went in and just saw themselves as who they were today and in the moment. So it’s this idea of when you truly embody the concept that your future self will be an entirely different person and that the consequences of everything you do and you don’t do in the now are going to ⁓ impact that.

 

other person, then your decision making is potentially going to be different. I certainly think better because you do realize that, okay, I’m creating that future for that person who I’m not at the moment, but that person’s going to live the results of every decision that I make. And when it comes to personal branding and making the decision of

 

putting yourself out there, building your profile. In the now, you know, it can be a hard ask because people are busy. They’re already thinking about just doing what they have to do. And then when you put it to them that, okay, on top of that, you have to go and network. You have to share your thought leadership.

 

You you

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (36:06)

I know!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (36:14)

You know i want you to imagine you’ve been offered this amazing opportunity it’s going to give you massive visibility it’s something you’ve never done before and you’re questioning whether you should do it and in the now you’re thinking am i ready should i do this can i do this. I want you to imagine what would your future self say to you at that point when you’re making the decision and every single time it gives the audience.

 

Goosebumps because every single time it will be something so simple, but yet so profound. It’s just like, go for it. Just do it. You’ve got this. And to me, it just shows that we have this mentor in us that we can use and tap into anytime.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (37:04)

Yeah, thank you. That’s brilliant. I love that. And do you know, I’m sitting here listening to you talking about this and envisaging future self. And sometimes I have to wonder whether I’ve done a lap of the planet before because I find myself doing things innately and then I learn about what it is that I’m doing after I’ve already done it.

 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:01)

Mmm, I love that. Yeah. Well, that’s a good thing. It’s like confirmation.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:07)

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s something that leaves me feeling very positive. thank you for clarifying future self psychology. And this probably leads very much into that as a next step and intuition and I call it my inner intelligence and and and something I tap into very regularly. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:16)

rhyme.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:35)

And I think some people, as we might suggest from the prelude to this question, ⁓ are more naturally attuned to the subtle cues. how does somebody who’s not learn to listen to their intuition and then channel it into what really matters?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:55)

Hmm.

 

Intuition has been, so my goal for this year and, you know, through the process of launching my book and doing all of these effectively new things, my biggest goal was listen to my intuition, really trust my intuition and take action on my intuition. And in doing that and consciously doing that this year,

 

I can say with a sense of authority that it really comes down to practice. And in terms of how, for me, it’s sitting still, being quiet, creating those moments of calm. So even I’ve started, instead of getting in the car and automatically turning on music,

 

I don’t turn on anything. And I, for me, that’s creating a moment, almost like setting a stage for my intuition to come in. That’s been my experience that the quieter you are, the easier it is to hear that little voice. And for different people, they’re going to experience their intuition differently.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:09)

I like that.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:27)

And I would say for the people who perhaps they’re new to the idea, and I am thinking that a lot of the people that are listening are probably not so new to it because I, and this may be a grand overstatement and stereotype, but I feel like women are at being intuitive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:48)

really good

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:52)

And we hear our intuition, we’re in touch with our intuition, but whether we act on our intuition, that’s another thing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:00)

sufficiently yeah yeah

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:02)

Yes.

 

And perhaps it’s just in that case, the practice is not necessarily learning to hear it or learning to listen. It’s learning to just take action. So I’ve got to the point now this year because it was my goal. It was a front and center goal for me. If my intuition tells me to send an email to someone, follow up someone, go to a particular event, I’m just going.

 

Like I’m not even questioning and I have to say I’ve had some really remarkable things come through as a result of doing that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:41)

Was it unnerving to start with? Did you have to step out of comfort zone or was it simply taking action?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:52)

I wouldn’t say it was unnerving because it’s always been something that I’ve appreciated. I would say it was more come really actually comes back to what you just said in terms of confirmation. Like you’re doing certain things or not doing certain things. And by making it front and center, I confirmed to myself not only how important it is.

 

to listen and take action, even when it doesn’t make sense. But I also confirmed to myself how sometimes I really wasn’t listening and I was not trusting it.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (42:35)

Yeah, great. So are you going to say something else then, Carlii?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (42:41)

No, I was just going to say how this and why I put this in the book was when it comes to personal branding. I think having that close connection with your intuition is so important because what I find is a lot of the time when someone first starts to put themselves out there and perhaps this this even mirrors how we develop as beings as humans.

 

In the beginning, we’re really looking around us to see what is everyone else doing and what can I mimic and how can I imitate and, and, and maybe that’s natural because then we go through our teenage years and we go, okay, I take this, I take this and I’ll change this. But when it comes to personal branding and putting ourselves out there in the beginning, it’s really tempting to just go, ⁓ but that’s how they’re doing it. So I’m going to do it like that. Or, you know, I want to do this, but maybe that’s wrong.

 

because no one else is doing it. And that’s where I think intuition plays such a dramatic role in just trusting that experiment with that, you know, maybe put something out there.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (43:55)

situation tells me where that white space is is where you should go. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:00)

Exactly. That might be your edge. by doing when, you know, when everyone’s zigging and your intuition is saying you should zag, it’s probably great advice.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (44:12)

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, Carlii, finally for the woman today thinking about stepping forward and they’ve got some hesitation around that. What does putting yourself out there with purpose really look like in everyday life? Is there an example that you could play out for us?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:35)

Yes, absolutely. Whenever you start to contemplate what you want your personal brand to be and how you want to shape your personal brand, a lot of clues in how to do that can actually be borrowed by some of the biggest brands in the world. And you can really lean on some traditional frameworks of brand marketing in

 

My case or what I speak about often is the four P’s. So the four P’s, are definitely for anyone in marketing, they’ll be familiar with the four P’s or this version of them is promise, packaging, position and promotion. So even if you sat down with a blank piece of paper and you put four circles on the page and you have promise, packaging, position, promotion.

 

promise is, what do you stand for? What do you want to be known for? How do you want to be remembered? And the really simple way of getting to that is, what are perhaps three words, ideas or phrases that you want people to automatically associate with you? That’s your promise. That’s the thing that you want people to automatically think of when they think of you. Once you’ve got that promise,

 

You can then shape and color the other parts of the puzzle. So you’ve got your packaging. Your packaging is not only how do you package yourself in person, so your styling, you know, your styling decisions, but also how you’re packaging yourself online. That’s your social media. So it’s really looking at every touch point, how am I packaging myself and what am I signaling?

 

in doing so, how am I dressing? What colors am I using? What words, phrases? So that’s your packaging. Your positioning, when you think of positioning in the world of brand marketing, we know that brands make sure that their products are on the right shelf in the right place because it will have a huge impact on how a customer receives and relates to that product. The same thing is for an individual.

 

Your positioning is not only potentially where you work or what industry you play in. Your positioning is what events are you going to? ⁓ If you are a thought leader, well, what platforms are you using? This is all shaping how people see you and what they associate with you. And then the last piece of the puzzle, which I think is the most important, is promotion.

 

Most people fall into the trap of thinking, if my work’s good enough, people will see it and that will be the end of the story. But we know in brand marketing, the biggest brands in the world are the biggest promoters in the world. They’re the biggest advertisers. Why? Because they know they have to stay top of mind. They have to stay relevant. They know that people’s attention spans are short. They know that they have to constantly

 

be reminding them of the brand. The same thing applies to our personal brands and not making the assumption that everyone’s thinking about you. Everyone sees you. Everyone knows what you’re doing because they don’t and psychology supports that statement. So I would start with that blank piece of paper. What are your four P’s and just look at, look at that as a starting point.

 

because that might shift your

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:26)

Masterclass. Yep. Thank you. And I, I personally have learned a lot, crossed a few things off and validated a few things that I’m doing just through the course of reflecting on exactly, exactly what you’ve said. they’re absolutely powerful points, Carlii. So, so thank you so much. Carlii, what a brilliant

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (48:44)

Amazing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:52)

episode today and it will be one of our closing episodes of the year. So I think what I would ask anybody listening to this is to play this over a couple of times. Take down the point. This is a bit of a masterclass over your Christmas break if you’re going to give yourself one to stop and reflect about how you are managing

 

yourself as a brand, whether it be that you want to step forward into your own business, you want to elevate yourself within the organisation with which you are, or you might be pursuing some purpose-led perspective that you’re embracing as a next stage in your career or your life. So Carlii, thank you so very much for that. And your book Courage To Be is out on the shelves now.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (49:52)

It is, thank you. Very exciting. And I just want to say, Di, thank you so much for having me and thank you for putting yourself out there in what you’re doing. And as you mentioned, how much work goes into even this podcast and each podcast episode. I know that you’re doing it for a very big purpose and that every woman who listens to it.

 

is benefiting from that. So thank you for allowing me to play a small part.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (50:24)

Thank you, Carlii. That endorsement means a lot and it makes me feel a little bit emotional. So thank you. Thank you so much. Please be sure to jump on to the show notes and there you’ll find where to find Carlii if you’d like to pursue a direct conversation. And I know you show up as I do quite regularly on LinkedIn where we’re LinkedIn fiends. That’s a really good spot.

 

to find either of us. Carlii, just for ⁓ edification, your website is…

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:04)

CarliiLyon.com

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (51:06)

Carlii, thank you again. It’s been an absolute privilege to go through all this. Thank you. So enlightening personally. So I know how enlightening it will be for our listeners. Until next time.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:12)

Thank you.

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Find Carlii Lyon at:

Website www.carliilyon.com

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/carliilyon/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/carlii_lyon/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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Judy King | Reclaiming Her Life After Childhood Trauma

Judy King | Reclaiming Her Life After Childhood Trauma

by | May 12, 2025 | Blog, Conqueror, Female Author, Female Entrepreneur, Female Podcast, Podcast For Women

Judy King is the first octogenarian guest on the Power Of Women Podcast — and she is nothing short of extraordinary. Now living her best life in Mallorca, Judy’s story is a powerful journey of success and healing, after unearthing repressed childhood memories.

Our conversation is a true emotional rollercoaster. We celebrate Judy’s remarkable achievements, including her domination of the Paddington real estate market in the 1960s — a feat few women could dream of at the time. But behind the success, Judy battled hidden demons: repressed childhood memories that left her overwhelmed by a persistent, haunting sense of failure. In recent years, therapy helped Judy unlock deeply buried truths — a harrowing history of undiagnosed trauma, sexual abuse, abandonment, emotional deprivation, and lifelong impacts on her mental health.

Judy shares her raw and courageous story with us, offering hope and wisdom for anyone who has faced darkness and fought their way back to the light.

Her full journey is captured in her powerful new book, AGNES – A Childhood Betrayed and Reclaimed.

Content Warning: This episode discusses topics related to child sexual abuse, trauma, and mental health.

In this episode:

  • Judy King is on a mission to help adult survivors of child abuse.
  • Her childhood experiences shaped her problem-solving skills.
  • Judy’s entrepreneurial spirit was driven by a desire to survive.
  • Judy became a recluse to focus on her personal issues.
  • Buddhism provided her with kindness and a new perspective.
  • Confronting her childhood trauma was a pivotal moment in her healing.

New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

 

Judy’s book is available:

Amazon https://www.amazon.com.au/Agnes-childhood-reclaimed-Judy-King/dp/1761096974 and at major bookstores.

10% of author royalties will be donated to the Blue Knot Foundation: https://blueknot.org.au/

Debbie Lee | So You Want to Write a Book? Here’s How.

Debbie Lee | So You Want to Write a Book? Here’s How.

by | May 5, 2025 | Blog, Female Author, Female Entrepreneur, Female Podcast

So, you want to write a book? Debbie Lee on how to get published.

If you’ve ever dreamed of becoming an author, this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast is a must-listen!

The world of publishing is evolving, and today’s authors must do more than just write—they need to promote themselves through podcasts, social media, literary festivals, and every opportunity that comes their way. As publishing veteran and owner of Ginninderra Press, Debbie Lee understands this shift firsthand. Bequeathed the company by its founder, Stephen Matthews, she carries the deep responsibility of honouring his legacy while navigating the industry’s modern challenges.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Debbie and Di dive into the multifaceted world of publishing. From the crucial role of professional editing to the expanding formats of books, they explore the key elements every writer must consider. They also discuss common pitfalls in manuscript submissions, the realities of book-to-screen adaptations, and the growing impact of censorship on literature.

Plus, with more women than ever finding their voices in publishing, self-promotion has never been more important. Authors can no longer hide behind their pages—it’s time to step into the spotlight.

New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

Debbie Lee | So You Want to Write a Book? Here’s How.

In his episode, we explore:

  • How print on demand technology has revolutionized the publishing industry, allowing for more flexibility and accessibility for indie authors.
  • The indie publishing landscape is changing, with authors needing to adapt to new realities.
  • Authors must invest in the editing and design process to ensure their book is of high quality.
  • Engaging a qualified editor is crucial for authors.
  • Women authors are increasingly finding their voice in the industry.

 

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Find Debbie Lee at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/deborah-e-lee/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/ginninderra_press/

Website https://ginninderrapress.com.au/

 

Alison Cork MBE | How to Be Fit & Fabulous At ANY Age … Because You Can

Alison Cork MBE | How to Be Fit & Fabulous At ANY Age … Because You Can

by | Apr 28, 2025 | Conqueror, Female Author, Female Empowerment, Female Entrepreneur, Health & Wellbeing, Podcast For Women, Transformational Change

Want to be fit & fabulous at ANY age? This episode of the Power Of Women Podcast with Alison Cork MBE clearly highlights it is irrefutable – you can be. Full of powerful insights on how women—especially those in mid-life—can transform their approach to life, health, and well-being. If you’re struggling with weight, looking for a fitness and nutrition overhaul, or simply ready to redefine your next chapter, this episode is for you!

Alison is a London-based entrepreneur, author, broadcaster, and passionate advocate for women in business. She’s the founder of Make It Your Business and National Women’s Enterprise Week, and an investor in female-led startups. Now, Alison is rewriting the script on aging with her latest book Fit & Fabulous Over 50, a blueprint for taking control of your health and vitality.

Another fabulous mid-life woman who despite already racking up innumerable accomplishments, is turbo-charging her second act. Alison shares her personal health journey, how she’s embraced nutrition and weight training, and the myths around quick fixes and refined sugar. Alongside Di, she discusses sustainable weight loss, brain health, and why women over 50 should make strength training a priority for longevity. Plus, Alison offers practical tips on your grocery spend, and the vital role of macronutrients in a balanced lifestyle.

Tune in for actionable advice and a dose of empowerment!

In this episode:

💡There is no silver bullet; it requires commitment.

💡Mindset is crucial; it’s never too late to change your life.

💡Age should not define one’s capabilities or potential.

💡Weight training is crucial for women.

💡You cannot out train a bad diet.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Find Guest Name at:

Website www.alisoncork.com

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/alisoncorkmbe/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/alisoncork_home/

Michelle Huntington | Soaring Beyond Limits @ 30,000 ft

Michelle Huntington | Soaring Beyond Limits @ 30,000 ft

by | Apr 7, 2025 | Female Author, Female Empowerment, Trailblazers

Soaring beyond limits. Michelle Huntington is a force to be reckoned with. On this episode of the Power Of Women podcast, Michelle shares her amazing journey from a childhood dream of flying to becoming an Airline Captain in a male-dominated industry, where there are only 500 female airline captains globally. She shares her remarkable determination in turning her dream of flying into reality, the importance of representation for women in aviation, and how her experiences shaped her identity. Listen to how she flew a 4-seater, single engine plane, solo from the USA to Australia in five days!

Michelle emphasises the need for resilience and a mindset of perseverance, encouraging others to keep pushing their boundaries. She has a fabulous mantra which she has taken from the cockpit to everyday life: Keep going until you can’t. Fasten your seatbelt.

Connect with Di:

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Contact Di

 

In this episode:

00:00 The Journey to Becoming a Pilot

04:09 Representation of Women in Aviation

05:20 Breaking into a Male-Dominated Industry

08:47 Childhood Dreams and Early Inspirations

12:22 Defining Personal Narratives

17:28 Overcoming Challenges and Identity

24:19 The Impact of Career on Identity

28:31 Developing a Resilient Mindset

30:17 Translating Aviation Skills to Leadership

32:40 Looking Ahead: Future Aspirations

 

Find Michelle Huntington at:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-huntington/

Website: https://www.michellehuntington.com/