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Unlocking the Power of Emotional Intelligence

Unlocking the Power of Emotional Intelligence

by | Oct 6, 2025 | Female Empowerment, Leadership, Podcast For Women

What really separates the leaders who inspire from those who fail? According to Amy Jacobson, it isn’t IQ. It’s EQ.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett is joined by emotional intelligence and human behaviour specialist Amy Jacobson to explore how EQ changes the way we lead, connect, and build culture.

Amy draws on her expertise as a keynote speaker, program facilitator, and twice Wiley-published author (Emotional Intelligence and The Emotional Intelligence Advantage) to break down misconceptions about EQ and show how it can be strengthened.

 

In this episode, we explore:

➜ The difference between EQ and IQ — and why the how and why matter more than the what.

➜ How empathy is both a strength and a risk — and how to avoid being a pushover.

➜ Why toxic positivity erodes trust and damages workplace culture.

➜ Real-life stories of leaders who improved their EQ and transformed their careers.

➜How balancing IQ and EQ shapes better hiring, teamwork, and leadership.

 

This episode is a reminder that success is not about perfection or constant positivity — it’s about being real, empathetic, and willing to grow.

 

Amy said:

“Success is happiness.”

“Success is happiness.”

“Empathy is one of the greatest skills you can build — but it’s exhausting if you try to use it in every situation.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

AMY (00:00)

So I believe success is happiness. And when I say that, I mean, you need to dance like you’re in Jimmy Fallon in a lipsink battle. You want to eat the chicken wings in public and lick your fingers and not be embarrassed at all. You’re going to laugh at yourself because it keeps you grounded, but it also keeps you light. You want to eat the cookies. No one wants, no one has to have the cookies. We eat it because we want to, and they’re delicious.

 

and give out hugs and compliments like happiness depends on it.

 

DI (00:31)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table for you to follow and subscribe and be part of every fearless, game-changing story that we tell here at the Power of Women. So after more than 40 years in corporate life and

 

30 of those as an executive search specialist, I have spent countless hours assessing executives’ experience, their cultural fit, their behavioural traits and their emotional intelligence. Some of them have it, some of them don’t. And the real differentiator isn’t just IQ or the technical skill because it is EQ, how the person influences, how they adapt, how they connect, that really makes the difference.

 

So joining me today is Amy Jacobson, emotional intelligence and human behavior specialist, keynote speaker. She’s also a sought after media commentator, a program facilitator and two time Wiley author. And together Amy and I are going to explore what emotional intelligence really means, how it shapes leadership and culture and tease out a few workplace scenarios, the good and the bad.

 

And we’re also going to explore how you can approve your own EQ if in fact it’s at the lower end of the scale. Amy Jacobson, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

AMY (02:06)

Thank you so much for having me, Di.

 

DI (02:09)

Amy, congrats on your latest book. I can see the placard in the back. Just give us a bit of a sense of what it’s about.

 

AMY (02:16)

So this one is focusing on two of the toughest areas that we tend to avoid as human beings. So it’s really around that managing the change, which we know is happening every day, right? So how do we get in and really manage or master that change area in line with the way that the mind works? So I like to say rather than change management, bringing in that change intelligence that aligns to the wiring of our mind and also the other areas of difficult conversations.

 

I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone die who loves having a difficult conversation so we tend to avoid them and this book really dives into the reasons why we avoid them but also the impact that we have when we’re having them because a lot of the times it’s actually us that make the conversation difficult not so much the other person.

 

DI (03:07)

Mind you, I think sometimes, I’m not sure that I’ve met anybody who likes having a difficult conversation, but I’ve certainly met plenty of people who make a conversation difficult.

 

AMY (03:17)

Yes,

 

that’s very true, very true.

 

DI (03:20)

Yeah. So Amy, for the listener grappling with emotional intelligence and not to conflate it with IQ, what exactly do you mean when you say EQ, the abridged version of emotional intelligence?

 

AMY (03:40)

So think the biggest differentiator when we look at IQ and EQ is that your IQ is what you know and what you can do. So it is really like the skills that are in it’s that technical part. It’s a real logical part coming into play where your EQ or your emotional intelligence is the how and why you do it. So these are the real reasons, the reasons why you choose to say that or you do that or how you actually deliver it to the people around you. ⁓

 

We’re talking about that space of understanding what makes us tick. What is the wirings? What is the values beliefs that have made up who we are today that is really driving us to take those steps and not just understanding what makes us tick, but also understanding what we can control in this world, right? Because there’s only one real thing we can control and that is ourselves and how we choose to respond.

 

And it’s not until we understand ourselves in that detailed way that we can then get out of our own head and start to understand that everyone’s different and it is okay for people to be different. So that emotional intelligence allows us to be able to get out of our head and think, okay, this person is why you’re different to me. That’s okay. What is the impact I’m having on them? And what is the best way that we can work together to get the end result that we desire?

 

DI (05:03)

So are you actually born with it or I’m sure we feel some people are born without it? How does it play out?

 

AMY (05:12)

So it’s a bit of a mixed hour. There are definitely people that are naturally born with higher levels of emotional intelligence and I think we tend to see emotional intelligence a lot more in young children where we encourage them to face their emotions, to deal with their emotions, to talk them through, to care about the people around them and really be a decent human being as they’re growing up.

 

As we get older though, we tend to decrease that focus on emotional intelligence and we start to bring those areas of, you know, that materialistic success into our lives and you know, how are we, are we good enough? Are we contributing enough? And this is where the emotional intelligence starts to get blurred. people are definitely born with it and some people higher levels than others. And you tend to find people who

 

do have those naturally higher levels of emotional intelligence, can’t quite understand why other people don’t get it, because they don’t quite realize what they’ve got. They’re kind of like, isn’t this what everyone does? Like, why would you do anything different? But we have shown as well that emotional intelligence is a skill. So it is something you can learn, like any other it’s learnable. Absolutely it is. Is it easy?

 

No, it’s not easy because when you’re learning emotional intelligence, you’re challenging the wiring that’s already embedded in your mind. So all of those values of belief.

 

DI (06:40)

You’re

 

probably getting some pretty tough feedback too.

 

AMY (06:42)

Right, so it’s definitely not easy, but absolutely it is teachable. You’ve just got to be really committed to making a difference.

 

DI (06:50)

So we’ve all had leaders that we think, well they think they’re self-aware and we’ve got a different view. How do you break through that denial? How do you actually even suggest to somebody that their EQ’s at the lower end of the scale?

 

AMY (07:09)

You’ve got to bring it to their to make them aware of it right but if you if you are bringing it to them and showing them examples and having that chat around them and they are not accepting that and they’re not aware of it and they stay in that denial there’s very little you can do because you cannot force someone to be emotionally intelligent that’s just not possible. All you can do is influence them so when you

 

when you especially when you’re working with somebody who is an emotionally intelligent, especially in a leadership role, it doesn’t mean that you should in turn not be emotionally intelligent back. And I think that’s probably one of the biggest mistakes we make. it’s, it’s that conversation. ⁓ I have it with people all the time, right? Cause they’re like, this person did this or this person has doesn’t have the decency to say hello or, know, to connect. And my first question back is always,

 

DI (08:07)

It’s like, you know, the person, yeah, the person that you go past and you say, how are you? the person who actually goes past you and says, how are you? And before you’ve even had a chance to respond, they’re gone. I reckon their EQ is way down the Richter scale.

 

AMY (08:23)

I mean they’re ticking a box right? They’re going through it’s kind of like that automatic they say it they don’t mean it they they’re really they’re not even waiting for an answer and I think it’s it it also comes down to in that workplace we are functioning a lot on our conscious mind because we are just go go go we’re in an environment where it doesn’t seem anything

 

but acceptable to be busy and to be in a fast pace and to be rushed. So unfortunately we’re just, we’re not tapping into that subconscious mind as much as we could be and as much as we should be. And therefore that conscious mind, like the subconscious mind is where the emotional intelligence lives. So if we’re not tapping into that area of our mind, we’re just ticking boxes.

 

DI (09:11)

So what’s the correlation between being emotionally intelligent and being empathetic? Because I’d be interested to understand if the correlation is really close, ⁓ can you be at risk of being a soft touch or a pushover if you’re highly emotionally intelligent and too empathetic?

 

AMY (09:32)

So empathy is a part of emotional intelligence. I believe empathy is one of the greatest skills you can build. I really do. But empathy is exhausting. And I think to be empathetic in every single situation, it’s not realistic and it is exhausting. And like you said, Di, you can become a bit of a pushover. It’s that fine line between being liked and being respected.

 

So with that empathy, and I guess this comes to having a really good understanding of the difference between empathy and sympathy, because sympathy has that, even that level of pity or that bit of care where you’re going, wow, this is terrible. I really wish this wasn’t happening to this person and I feel for this person, where empathy is simply recognizing the emotion that the person is feeling and thinking.

 

When was the last time I felt that emotion? What is the best thing that somebody could possibly say to me rather than what is the worst thing? So I think some people that get caught in that empathy loop are actually in an empathy and sympathy loop where they are bringing a lot of that sympathy in because having fantastic empathy gives you the ability to be able to move forward and help to find solutions. Like how do we fix this? How do we move forward?

 

You’re not in your own head, you’re there to support them, but you’re actually there to support them to progress, not just to loop and loop and loop in that current state of mind.

 

DI (11:07)

So then on the flip side, and we’ve seen it happen where people with low EQ are in fact still the best person for the job, for whatever reason, or might be the last man standing in a selection process sometimes, which can be the case. yeah, so we see people with poor EQ get promoted anyway. What’s the impact on a culture when that happens?

 

AMY (11:24)

Peace!

 

It depends what role they’re in. I always like to say that if I was going in for brain surgery, I would want my surgeon to have lower levels of emotional intelligence.

 

Because when I’m in that situation and they are operating on my brain, I don’t want them to be thinking about Amy is the mother of two kids and she’s the wife of Mark. And I want them to be thinking about me as a vessel that they’re just going through that same motion that they do every day and really keeping focused on what they can do. But anytime you’re interacting with human beings when they’re awake, that emotional intelligence is going to create the relationships, right?

 

If you put aside those few really specific roles that ⁓ I guess look to the ability to be able to shut down your emotions, to be able to do it really well and look at the majority of other roles out there. When we get leaders and specifically CEOs in roles that lack emotional intelligence, we’re getting to the point now where people are just not willing to put up with it. People are walking because the culture is turning toxic.

 

DI (12:44)

More so now than generations before us, I think.

 

AMY (12:48)

definitely die and what I’m seeing more than anything now is that people have the genuine interest for emotional intelligence is continuing to rise and it will continue to rise especially with AI coming in but what I’m starting to notice now is that the more organizations that are providing emotional intelligence training for their teams it doesn’t just help them build their emotional intelligence but it also makes it really obvious then to them the people that

 

aren’t being emotionally intelligent. And I know there’s been a couple of times now where I’ve had, you know, CEOs or C-Sweeps that have said, no, no, we’re not going to do the training. We’ll just let everybody else do it because you know, we think they really. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the people walking out of these training and going, well, hang on a second. Like our CEO and our C-Sweep, they’re the ones that are lacking emotionally intelligence. They’re doing exactly what Amy said not to do.

 

DI (13:32)

They feel exposed.

 

AMY (13:46)

And it’s just through that lack of awareness, right? So I think that we are becoming that place that is less tolerant to people lacking emotional intelligence because we know that success is, it is that balance between EQ and IQ. You can’t have one without the other. You need that balance.

 

DI (14:07)

Yeah, but that example you just gave is interesting because they’ve chosen the C-suite, in this instance that you’ve just cited, has chosen not to turn up. So can you use EQ as a leverage in

 

managing an environment. So if you’re holding back and not giving and that’s your style, does that mean you have low EQ or can you in certain circumstances or certain settings choose simply not to display it?

 

AMY (14:49)

It comes down to being real, right? Exactly what you’re saying in that is what is true to your style. So if you have somebody who is quite, you know, quite an introverted person or, you know, talks only when they feel there’s something to say and, you know, they’re really respected for that, then I wouldn’t call that low emotional intelligence. I would say they know who they are and they know their comfort area and they add to the conversation when it’s relevant.

 

where if you’ve got somebody who is quite an extrovert and they’re sitting there and they’re choosing not to say anything and in their mind is just hundreds and hundreds of thoughts and disagreement and challenges in their mind and they’re choosing not to say anything, then that’s not emotionally intelligent. You’ve got to be real to who you are and you’ve got to make sure that what is coming out of your mouth, the actions that you’re doing is aligned to your mind. So people can see straight through that.

 

that kind of that false exterior, right? And this is why I’m having so many conversations at the moment around that toxic positivity and that being emotionally intelligent isn’t being positive every second of every day because that’s not what life is. It’s being real, being authentic. And that is how you build trust and build respect. So I think there are some incredible CEOs out there that choose to

 

sit back and choose to let people take the lead and, you know, choose to be more of that quiet background and they’re very emotionally intelligent people. But there’s also some other ones that choose to sit back and let them do the work that it’s not emotionally intelligent at all because it’s going against everything that they’re thinking, that they’re saying, that they’re supporting. So it’s going to impact the relationship. There’s no template, I guess, to aligning to being an emotionally intelligent.

 

DI (16:44)

So tell us about toxic positivity. How’s that playing out in the workplace? What are you seeing?

 

AMY (16:52)

we’re seeing is people that are coming in and just and not being real like they’re coming in and saying you know we need to pretend like every day is amazing like everything’s great you know something happens and you know we use the example in one of the situations where you’ve got a company who’s laying off 200 staff and going but everything’s fine like everything’s okay like let’s just get on let’s just be happy let’s like go no so it’s at that point where we’ve got to understand that

 

There’s no such thing as a good or bad emotion. There is an appropriateness of an emotion and a severity level. So in some instances, upset, anger, fear, that is the right emotion. you just got to… Appropriate. That’s right. Like you’ve just got to get the intensity or the severity level right. But what we’ve got some organizations coming in that don’t have fantastic cultures,

 

that are avoiding the difficult conversations that are avoiding the honesty and just sugarcoating it all with everything is amazing let’s just pretend everything’s happy and when these people are coming in and being this this fake positive what it’s turning into is a lack of trust a lack of respect it’s it’s people looking going well you’re not real that’s not realistic and i can’t relate to that so therefore i’m

 

I’m just not relating to you at all. And yeah, once you’ve lost trust in a work environment or in any relationship, it’s never going to end. Yeah.

 

DI (18:19)

It’s all over.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s be honest, can you shift the dial on somebody’s EQ if it’s really at the bottom end of the spectrum?

 

AMY (18:32)

seen it happen on a few occasions. Again is it easy? No it really isn’t because it really needs a full makeover in your mind. Like we are talking you know habits and beliefs that you’ve had for so long that your mind is naturally going to defer to in situations. It’s about being able to change those.

 

This is a long-term commitment, right? And usually we see it happen when people hit a really ⁓ big moment in their life that’s had a big impact that really wakes them up to them realizing just how much of a, let’s say, poor or like it’s a person who is seriously lacking that ability to be able to connect to that the human being. So you hear stories about when people lose everything that they have built or

 

when people have got really sick or when something really devastating has happened in their life that has kind of jolted people out and they’ve realized that that deep embedded wiring in their mind is actually not the best way for them to be. So they put in the work to actually rewire. But when you’re looking at a workplace, I’ll go into sessions and we’ll run a session and at the end I’ll always provide feedback to say, this is my thoughts on the people that were at the session.

 

These people here have great emotional intelligence these people here really quite lack it But they’re aware of it and if they’re aware of it, then you can definitely help them to work on it But if they’re not aware of it You’re gonna need you’ve got a choice. Yeah, you’ve got to either accept them as they are knowing They are not going to improve and things are not going to change or you need to move them on It’s it’s a tough decision, but it’s it’s one or the other

 

DI (20:21)

So you and I have been talking for about 15 or 20 minutes. Can you tell from that whether I actually have whatever level of EQ?

 

AMY (20:35)

Yes, I can gauge. mean, I think that most of us can. I think even in those first couple of minutes when you start to speak to someone, I think you can straight away start to see the mindset that they’re in and their ability to be not in their own head. And I think that’s the biggest giveaway, right? When you can see that somebody is…

 

DI (20:40)

I’m stealing myself.

 

AMY (21:01)

listening to what you’re saying, they’re curious, you can tell by this conversation die that it’s not rattled off questions, it’s you listening to the answers and then taking the conversation in the direction that the answers are actually leading us. That’s the kind of display of emotional intelligence but I truly do believe that I don’t think there is such a thing as an emotionally intelligent person. I think that

 

in every situation we have a choice to make. either choose to respond in an emotionally intelligent way or we choose not to. And while this conversation I would say absolutely, I know that there are times when I enter into a conversation and my emotional brain takes over my logical brain and I could step back at the end and think, wow, I wasn’t very emotionally intelligent there. So I think it is that it’s that ability to be able to apply it in this situation.

 

But what is our biggest measure is that those times when we don’t get it right, it’s what we choose to do then. So in those moments when we step back and we say, okay, my emotional brain took over then, I wasn’t very logical, I didn’t respond in a great way, and I wasn’t emotionally intelligent, it’s having that ability to be able to go back to that person or go back to that conversation and say, you know what?

 

that didn’t go well, like I didn’t do well myself in that situation, can we try again? Or can we talk about this a little bit further? And just simply having the ability to apologize when we don’t get it right, that’s our true measure of emotional intelligence.

 

DI (22:40)

And sometimes going back and apologising may not be the right thing to do. The delivery that you intended that was hard-hitting and impactful and possibly negative was where you wanted to leave it. That’s not necessarily not being emotionally intelligent. That’s knowing when to apply it in what measure and when it’s appropriate.

 

AMY (22:55)

Absolutely.

 

DI (23:06)

I know and there will be people who will remember being on the receiving end of me doing just that.

 

AMY (23:11)

And that’s exactly right that’s coming back to that fake positivity right like that emotional intelligence at times is going to make people feel uncomfortable It is gonna make them squirm a little bit. It’s gonna be something they don’t want to hear But you know that they need to hear it You know that in that moment they’re gonna struggle and they’re gonna struggle a lot But you know an hour two hours a day a week later

 

they’re going to get what they needed out of that and that’s going to help them for the right reasons. We can only hope, ⁓

 

DI (23:43)

We hope.

 

Absolutely. So Amy, let’s come back in a moment and do a little mini masterclass on EQ if we could.

 

AMY (23:56)

Sounds great.

 

DI (23:59)

If

 

you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So time for a bit of a ⁓ EQ master class. So grab a pen because Amy’s going to take us through some ideas here. So let’s say an individual’s been told that they lack EQ and you you might be resisting the urge to push back in whatever way about that. What’s the first step we could take to start building it up?

 

AMY (24:39)

The first thing we can do is just observe and start to be aware of the impact we’re having on the people around us. So really being able to look at those situations and take the moment to pause and just be observant, be present and see the reactions that you’re getting from other people is going to be really key to understand what it is that’s actually coming out, maybe not in the way that you intended it to.

 

or also to understand what is actually driving it. So where is it coming from? So it’s always going to be that pause moment and then kind of like, I guess it’s that reflection on yourself, right? Okay, what role did I just play in that situation? How did that person feel at the end of it? How did they respond? What is it that I triggered there? So it’s really, it’s starting to own who you are and the impact that you’re having on the people around you.

 

DI (25:34)

So I’ve observed that I wasn’t well received or I’ve observed that I’ve caused discomfort or upset or anger in the other person. So I’ve taken the pause. I’ve started to think it through. How do I then apply that in a more emotionally intelligent way? Is that the next step?

 

AMY (25:59)

Yep, absolutely. So it’s at this point that you get out of your own head, right? So once we understand, okay, what impact are we having? What is driving that? What are the values and beliefs that are driving it? Why am I reacting that way? Then it’s about getting out of your own head and realizing that this situation is not about me. So what is the best way that I can communicate with this person to help them get the best outcome or the outcome that they desire?

 

So this is at this point where, you know, if I use a difficult conversation, for example, when we head into a difficult conversation and we lack emotional intelligence, we are very much in that fear in our mind of the fear of conflict, the fear of unknown, how are they going to respond to me? And we kind of go into that conversation with that defense mechanism on ourself to make sure that we’re okay in the situation.

 

When we start to apply emotional intelligence and we go into a difficult conversation, we realize that the conversation is not about us at all. It’s about the person in front of us. So how can we speak? How can we communicate to the person in front of us based on their emotional feelings right now to get the right outcome? And what is the outcome that we desire?

 

Because when we lack emotional intelligence, a lot of the times when we enter into these interactions or conversations, the outcome that we tend to desire is to win and to be right. So in our head, if you’re in a conversation and you’re looking to win or you’re looking to be right, then you are not applying emotional intelligence. It’s at that point having the ability to be able to go, okay, this is not about

 

DI (27:27)

Hmm

 

AMY (27:41)

someone being right and wrong. This is not about a winner and a loser. This is about having a conversation so that we understand how we got here and what the future looks like. How do we move past this? What do we want this to look like in the future? So it’s really that communication is having the ability to be able to start recognizing other people’s emotions and think,

 

What is the best thing that I could possibly do interacting with this person to get them through this and get to the right outcome?

 

DI (28:14)

So am I seeking feedback as to how I’m going on my master class journey? Am I asking people what they think?

 

AMY (28:21)

Thinking feedback is an interesting one, right? Like I’m a huge advocate. You should always be looking for feedback. But I think my tip for everyone is be very careful in the way that you ask for feedback because these days I see a lot of people ask for feedback but don’t give people permission to truly give them feedback. It would be kind of like, you know, at the end of this session me saying to you, oh, that was great. I went well, didn’t I? How did you think I went? Did I do good?

 

You know what mean? giving permission for feedback. So yes, feedback.

 

DI (28:51)

That’s not taking feedback.

 

That’s words in your own mouth.

 

AMY (28:58)

And that’s me just saying, just want you to confirm my ego right now. That’s what I want you to do. So when you’re asking for feedback and the best thing you can possibly do to be vulnerable and to grow your emotional intelligence is to get that feedback. But you want to do it in a way that you give permission. So you want to really come in with that vulnerability to say,

 

know, die. I’m doing a lot of podcasts at the moment and I know that I’m not quite nailing them and I’m really working on improving them. Can you give me two tips on how you think I could do better for my next podcast? So that’s the difference between that compared to the first one. That is truly asking for feedback and seeking feedback as opposed to ticking a box and please stroke my ego so I can continue to do what I want to

 

DI (29:48)

Yeah, we see plenty of that. So have you seen ⁓ examples in the workplace without names? Could you give us some examples of where somebody who’s been out to shift the dial on their EQ for the better actually positively impact their career in some substantive way?

 

AMY (30:11)

Yeah, yeah, there is one person particularly that I’m thinking of. The first time I met him in a session, his ego was really, really quite evident. And you could see that he constantly needed to say something. It was kind of for that, for that very much that stroke of the ego, right? And I could even see the people around him that lacked respect for him because he really, he wasn’t welcoming any respect in a way.

 

I could see that he was quite a big personality. He was in a role that ⁓ traditionally kind of demands that level, but he’d taken it way too far. He’d been stuck in this role for quite a while and wasn’t quite understanding why. He wasn’t progressing as well. And it would have been watching him develop over, it would have been a good two to three years, but the first time that I…

 

The first time that I started to see the difference, it wasn’t in our first session, it was after he attended one of my sessions, I could see towards the end a little bit of a breakthrough, but it was at the second session and the part that hit home for him, even though we were focused on the workplace, he actually came up to me on one of the breaks and said, ⁓ my goodness, Amy, I have just realized how bad I am to my wife.

 

from an emotional intelligence. Crazy, right? That is what hit him. He straight away, he said it was like this and even the look on his face was just pure awareness and shock. He said, I have just realized what I’m doing to my wife and to my kids at home and the energy that I’m taking and the way that I’m speaking to them. And once he started to get that realization,

 

You could see the shift in the workplace as well. You could see the shift with everybody he worked with. it was like it still gives me goosebumps because it was incredible to see this person that had such a thick armor and a protection on and ego driven to just slowly unravel this. And he was he was so comfortable to be vulnerable in unwrapping it as well. Like he was quite vocal. I would get phone calls from him saying,

 

know, Amy, I just had to share this with you. I can’t believe it’s happened. And I’ve watched his career since just climb and climb and climb. And the respect level that his peers have for him now is incredible. He is a completely different man to who I met. But it’s always fascinating when it hits home first outside of work where we’re probably a little bit more raw and honest with the people that we love. And that’s where it became obvious for him.

 

DI (33:01)

And I know that, you know, the line of you can, we can teach you skill but we can’t employ somebody who’s outside of the fit for an organisation. Are you more inclined to put an emphasis on EQ or IQ in a talent acquisition setting?

 

AMY (33:24)

If I was in that talent acquisition setting, I would put a little bit more of a sway towards your EQ, but it would only be a slight sway. And I say that because I really do believe it’s the balance between IQ and EQ that we need in this world. I think that your EQ will only take you so far before you need some IQ to back it up. Your IQ also will take you so far before you need some EQ to back it up.

 

I am a big believer in there is a cultural fit for an organization and a cultural fit for a team. And that doesn’t mean a team of clones. It doesn’t mean bringing the same type of people together. It means getting the right balance and getting the different skill sets and getting the different belief, but it’s getting the right levels of emotional intelligence so that they can actively challenge each other.

 

effectively challenge each other that they can be honest that they can be vulnerable. So it’s getting that balance right and and for me that is it’s that ability to to apply your emotional intelligence in a situation and if you’ve got somebody coming into a team who does not have that ability it doesn’t matter how similar they are or how different they are it’s it’s not going to work.

 

Because human beings, number one way that we work is based on connection. And if you cannot create that connection with somebody, it’s not going to work.

 

DI (34:52)

So if we look out into the public arena today, I think we’ve got some pretty good examples of good and bad. Who would you call out as being exemplars of demonstrating great emotional intelligence?

 

AMY (35:07)

This one’s always a tough one, right? This one’s always a tough one.

 

DI (35:11)

I know the negative is easier to do because there’s plenty of that.

 

AMY (35:14)

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Look, I think there’s some people out there doing some incredible things and really showing great levels of emotional intelligence. If I don’t call out some specifics, I think if we look at industries in general, when we look at our politicians, we can tell the difference between those politicians that do show high levels of emotional intelligence versus those that don’t simply by the way that they speak.

 

DI (35:41)

Go

 

on, name me, I dare you.

 

AMY (35:44)

I’ve done it a long time ago. did it in an article and it created absolute chaos. didn’t play out well. But I think also if we start to look at even those people in public figures like those like celebrities and things like that as well. A celebrity that shows really high emotional intelligence and this is probably going to throw it out there a little bit for people as well.

 

If I look at someone who like Taylor Swift, right, who’s very much in the media at the moment, people either love her or hate her, but her ability to keep on doing what she’s doing and be able to kind of to take the emotions, to take the impact of other people and continue to go through and continue to have that care factor and never lose that level where, you know, she still introduces herself as high on Taylor just in case she didn’t know kind of thing.

 

That is showing that grounding, right? Where we find other celebrities out there that are, you know, those people that are like, you know, don’t you know who I am type thing. Like this is me, I should never need to introduce myself because everybody knows who I am. That totally lacks emotional intelligence.

 

DI (36:59)

Yeah and we see it in sportsmen, the people who you know walk off a tennis court and are happy to sign a signature and those who walk off and it’s like, no that’s beyond me.

 

AMY (37:09)

Yep, that’s and you see videos I was watching video there the day of you you’re saying about you say bolt and how he takes the time there’s one of the one of the tennis players to I don’t follow a lot of tennis but I know here at the moment

 

DI (37:24)

David

 

only recently smashed up a tennis racket but then we don’t necessarily know what the provocation’s been either.

 

AMY (37:32)

right? No, I’m more talking about it was a video of a really high level of emotional intelligence where you he was sharing the umbrella with the ball boy and is sitting down and having a conversation with the ball boy and you know that kind of thing that shows your high levels of emotional intelligence when you have the ability to do that. So in the sporting industry it’s very interesting because I think and this comes back to that area where

 

I really do believe that there’s no such thing as an emotionally intelligent person because you see in some sports people and in people in high profiles in one interview they can do really, really well. And then there could be a snippet that they caught off guard or another situation where we don’t understand the context, but it looks like they haven’t handled the situation that.

 

DI (38:21)

All in the post-production Amy, we can turn anything into something else with a little bit of a tweak.

 

AMY (38:27)

But that’s emotions right? when you don’t know what’s going on. It’s true. Emotions can be read so many different ways and when we don’t understand like you were saying, what is driving that? What’s building to that area? ⁓ We make some really big assumptions and it good.

 

DI (38:47)

Yeah, I mean we have a famous example here in Australia, I mean remember the Lindy Chamberlain case. She was judged in the court of public opinion as being guilty because her emotional display didn’t match what everybody wanted it to be.

 

AMY (39:02)

Exactly right. this is, ⁓ you know, I love this part of AI when people start to understand and realize that situations and people can’t make us feel a certain way. Like it is, you know, we react the way that we react based on the wiring in our mind. And that’s why, you know, you can grab 10 people from around the world, put them in a room and have the same thing happen to all of them. But you can have 10 different reactions. And that’s exactly right with Lindy Chamberlain, right?

 

because she didn’t have the default reaction that people were expecting straight away they said, well, she’s guilty, clearly she’s guilty. But we all respond different to situations based on our upbringing, experiences, our values and our beliefs and just how we process emotions. So those emotions can be taken and as you said, that’s where video editing works so well in the media and with reality TV shows, right? That’s why they get the rating.

 

DI (39:58)

Sure does. Yeah sure does. Hey can I just clarify you just said EI so we use the term EI and EQ. Yeah. Are they one in the same? Are they exactly the same?

 

AMY (40:12)

They’re not exactly the same. the difference between the two of them is emotional EQ is your emotional quotient. So it is your portion. Yeah, it’s the measure of your emotional intelligence where EI is the abbreviation for emotional intelligence. the two

 

DI (40:27)

Yeah

 

AMY (40:27)

Yeah,

 

the two are interchangeable. We understand what both of them mean. We know what both of them refer to. So I tend to use AI unless I’m talking about the actual measure of your emotional intelligence. But EQ, it’s well known. It aligns perfectly to IQ as well. So they’re both acceptable.

 

DI (40:47)

Got it. So let’s just as we come to a close today, if I can just pull this back a little closer to the power of women. We’re told women are naturally more empathetic and you know that’s biology and stereotype or is that really just a convenient excuse for men not to develop decent levels of EQ?

 

AMY (41:13)

it’s all of the above. I really do. think that the genetics in us, right, when you’re coming from emotional intelligence, sometimes you’ve got to do that.

 

DI (41:18)

That’s politically correct, Amy.

 

AMY (41:26)

I think it is a mixture for some people. think that there is definitely that genetics and that the world upbringing, right? And the acceptance that it’s always been that women can show more emotion and that they are the caregiver and you know, the role that we play and that it’s more acceptable for us to show emotions and less acceptable for men. I do believe that some men out there are absolutely using us as an excuse. ⁓ but I also think that there are some men out there that are

 

trapped behind that, they’re trapped behind that upbringing and the way they’ve been told or taught to react in situations. I’m seeing now though, I think we’re really breaking through this and even in the last five years, we are starting to see such a shift and it’s a positive shift. It’s a positive shift that people are talking more about emotions.

 

We’re being more honest, we’re being more upfront, we’re being more vulnerable. And I think that the men that are still sticking behind that masculinity and, you know, they don’t need to show emotions, they are starting to be called out and left behind. So I think we are going to continue.

 

DI (42:37)

I think that’s right.

 

In your opinion, what’s the most significant challenge women are facing and how can they use emotional intelligence to shift the dial?

 

AMY (42:50)

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge that we are facing and we’ve been facing it for a while now is to be confident and comfortable in who we are, to be real. And when I look at the workplace, I think for so long women have, they’ve put success down to bringing in that masculinity, to be one of the boys, to act a certain way, to have a conversation a certain way, to go up against those that.

 

that gender ⁓ inequality that we’ve had. And I think our biggest challenge now is knowing that success in a workplace, it does not come in a blueprint. You do not have to look a certain way. You do not have to speak a certain way. You do not have to need to act a certain way. It is getting women to be truly comfortable and confident in who they are, to understand their wiring, to understand what makes them different, but also

 

know that that difference, it’s a superpower as long as you apply it the right way. So have that ability to just still be, still be connected with your emotions. It’s not a bad thing to show emotions in a workplace, but just make sure you’ve got control of them. So feel the emotions, face the emotions, but know how to move on and have that confidence that every emotion that is coming out, you are feeling it for a reason and be okay with that.

 

but just know how to control it and how to move forward and just be your amazing self. There’s so many incredible women out there that I see when they get promoted or go into a new role that feel like they have to change. And it’s like, no, you were promoted for a reason. That’s right. Don’t change who you are. They promote you because they want that person in there and you don’t need to look the same and act the same as everybody else around the table. Be yourself.

 

DI (44:35)

for a reason.

 

Yeah, love it. Amy, how does somebody find you if they want to connect and work on their EQ?

 

AMY (44:55)

onto my website that’s the best place to find me that’s amyjaggibson.com.au on there you’ll find an insights page that has so many articles videos podcasts radio TV all of that kind of stuff that will help you to start build it you’ll also find my two books on there as well or links to be able to purchase the books and find me on social media too I this may come as a shock to you but I love meeting people so

 

You know, the more people that reach out, the better. I do love a good chin wag.

 

DI (45:26)

Beautiful. Well, we’ll put all of those links into the show notes and in particular your website so that they can find you. ⁓ EQ showing emotional intelligence is probably sharing this episode with somebody who you think might just need a little poke in the ribs. That it could be ⁓ a subtle way of being emotionally intelligent and giving somebody a bit of a rev up. But thanks for joining us. Thanks for…

 

listening through to the end of this particular episode. We’re sort of changing the topics around a bit and curating the mix. So I’d love you to let us know is there something you want to hear more of and only the other week we had our first male guest on which was an emotionally intelligent decision on our behalf to say we’re not going to be just one-sided in talking to the women and in fact it all jokes aside it was

 

one of the most insightful ⁓ discussions I’ve had with a truly emotionally intelligent male who fully understands the impact of how women and men can work better together. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

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Find Amy Jacobson at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-jacobson-emotional-intelligence/

Website https://amyjacobson.com.au/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/amyjacobson_ei/?hl=en\

 

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5 Everyday Biohacks to Live Well Longer

5 Everyday Biohacks to Live Well Longer

by | Sep 29, 2025 | Female Podcast, Health & Wellbeing, Healthy Aging

On Episode 84 of the Power Of Women Podcast, I sit down with Azra Alagic, biohacker, Behaviour Change Specialist, and founder of BiohackHer. Together, we explore how women can move beyond the obsession with living longer and instead focus on living well longer.

Azra’s story is one of transformation. From chronic fatigue, gut dysbiosis, and migraines to a thriving health span built on science-backed biohacking practices. She believes there’s no such thing as “can’t” and that women must empower themselves to make conscious lifestyle choices that support vitality, clarity, and resilience.

This conversation dives into the practical, everyday actions that make a difference: from morning sunlight to mindful breathwork, and reframes aging not as decline, but as power.

 

In this episode, we explore:

➜ Why health span matters more than lifespan

➜ Retirement as a mindset trap and how to avoid it

➜ The science behind biohacking and women’s health

➜ 5 Everyday Biohacks: Morning sunlight, cold exposure, sleep optimisation, intermittent fasting, mindfulness & breathwork

➜ Why biohacking must be adapted to women’s hormonal cycles.

 

Azra said:

“Women’s health needs to be valued as much as men’s health. We should not accept disease as inevitable.”

“Biohacking is backed by science. There are countless studies and trials — it’s not a gimmick.”

“Ageing well is about taking control of your own biology so you can live well longer.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

AZRA (00:00)

I believe women’s health needs to be valued as much as men’s health. That we should not accept disease as inevitable and that women should empower themselves to make better lifestyle choices so that they can live well longer.

 

DI (00:16)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is your invitation to join the conversation. So please be sure to follow or subscribe to the podcast and make sure you’re part of every fearless, unfiltered, inspiring story we’re here to tell at the Power of Women.

 

Today I want to muse on something we’re all wrestling with, aging. And it’s inevitable, but it’s not an excuse because too often we put ourselves last, we’re juggling far too much, and we tell ourselves we can’t. My guest today is Azra Elagic. And Azra says there’s no such thing as can’t. And that plays into my mantra because I’m on the same page. I often say I can’t do something.

 

yet. Azra is a biohacker, a behavior change specialist and founder of Biohack Her. And she believes that small daily hacks can transform how we age and how we live. So together, we’re going to explore five everyday biohacks that are going to feel like superpowers. Azra Olarjic, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

AZRA (01:44)

Thanks, Tigray, to be here.

 

DI (01:46)

Azra, you talk about healthspan versus lifespan and I’m absolutely there with you. But the distinction between those two things plays into your own story. Tell us about that.

 

AZRA (02:03)

certainly does. I remember it getting to my mid-40s and starting to feel age kick in. wasn’t as fit

 

DI (02:14)

It’s

 

home memory, Ezra.

 

AZRA (02:19)

But then I got to that milestone birthday die when I turned 50 and it became even worse. I was suddenly confronted with my mortality and I thought hang on a minute, I have lived maybe more than half of my life and that was really confronting to me and it wasn’t that I was afraid of getting older, it was that I was concerned about

 

ensuring that I could continue to do the things that I love to do and to be able to do those things with my loved ones. And I had watched family that are close to me deteriorate around me, other women in my life, like my grandmother. And these ladies had died, you know, at a relatively young age and I didn’t want to be like that. And so…

 

it occurred to me that I needed to do something about it, to be more proactive about it. And So when we look at lifespan versus healthspan, healthspan is very much about ensuring that we can be as healthy for as long as we possibly can. And that’s what I’m all about. It’s about making sure that I’m proactive in my lifestyle choices so that I can really nurture myself, put myself first. As you mentioned, lots of women don’t tend to do that.

 

And we need to give ourselves permission to be able to do that. So we can be there for our loved ones as we get older.

 

DI (03:40)

You also talk about the impacts of focusing on retirement versus living powerfully now. And I’m of the view that retirement is a slippery slope if we retire out of society, retire out of what we’re doing. And whilst there’s a bit of a desire to slow down and live differently,

 

Is retirement in the truest sense of the word detrimental to our health?

 

AZRA (04:19)

I think it is in the truer sense and I think it comes down to mindset. When we think about retirement, we often think that that’s the time for us to slow down, that’s the time to stop being creative, that’s the time to stop critically thinking and it’s almost like in my mind I see people giving up on life and I don’t want to give up on life.

 

Yes, it’s nice to be able to slow down and have a little bit more space, a little bit more time to be able to do things that you’re more passionate about. But I think we need to be careful about our mindset when we do go into retirement. We need to adopt what I call a longevity mindset. So it’s not about slowing down, it’s actually going into a full kilt and really ramping it up even more and living life with passion.

 

and energy and vitality and that’s why it’s so important to ensure that we continue to live longer and that we look after our health so we can do that because I don’t know about you but I don’t want to end up with a chronic disease and I don’t want to have to walk around with a Zimmer frame in my 80s and 90s. I want to as I always say continue to dance on the tables as long as I possibly can because we want to be able to live life as fully as we possibly can.

 

DI (05:34)

And you’re living up in Queensland and you’ve got lots of vitamin D and I think that plays into to well-being and mental health as well. I think ⁓ getting a dose of sunshine as you dance on that tabletop might be a good thing to do.

 

AZRA (05:50)

Sure does. Well just came back from overseas in Europe where I did bit of dancing on the tables in the Italian fries. there you go. Got lots of vitamin D over there.

 

DI (05:58)

Fabulous.

 

So as we’re talking about, ⁓ and you say, lifespans are increasing, but not our health spans. And I think we’ve only got to look out in society to see that. mean, we can see evidence of so many people not aging well, whether that’s through choice of diet, whether that’s attitude, whether that’s inherited diseases or other.

 

circumstances, but I think a glance, you know, day to day in community would tell us about that. We’re going to get into biohacking, which is your point of specialisation. However, some people listening might be sceptical about that and think it’s a bit of a trend or perhaps even a gimmick or, you know, health advice off Instagram. What would you say to those who

 

doubt the value of biohacking. before we define just what that might be.

 

AZRA (07:02)

Sure. I understand that it’s a new and potentially novel concept and that some people might think that it’s a gimmick. But when we think about history, we’ve often seen that those that are the early adopters, that are the disruptors in many different industries. are The ones that have paved the way for others. And I would suggest that before people close their minds to what biohacking can do for you,

 

and how powerful it can be, but they look into the science and the research and the fact that a lot of the biohacks that we embrace as biohackers are backed by science and it is backed by evidence. So there are lots and lots of studies and research papers and clinical trials that have been done for many of the biohacks that a lot of biohackers do such as myself and I think it’s important to have an open mind. Remember about we need to embrace that longevity mindset.

 

And this is where we need to push ourselves outside the comfort zone. And while people often say that we don’t like change, women in particular, I think, are absolute powerhouses at change because we deal with change every single day from our families to our work environment to our homes. We’re constantly having to evolve and change and shift. And so really having that open mindset and looking at the science and do your own research. If you don’t believe me, if you don’t believe other biohackers,

 

Go away, check it out yourself and look into it and see what the studies show.

 

DI (08:35)

And how do we find those out there in communities? So you’re talking about yours is backed by science, but how do we know we’ve landed on the right practitioner?

 

AZRA (08:47)

I think it comes down to personal choice when we’re referring to a particular practitioner. Because for me personally, I found that at times Western medicine let me down and certainly Western medicine has a place. Absolutely do not disagree with that. But for me, I had leaky gut syndrome, I had inflammation in my body, I had severe migraines, I ended up with an autoimmune condition. I was diagnosed years later in celiac which was missed earlier on.

 

So there are a lot of things that weren’t picked up and I only discovered those as a result of going down the biohacking arm and working with functional medical practitioners and alternative therapists. And so I think it comes down to the individual and you need to listen to your body and really do what’s right for you because what works for me is not necessarily going to work for you and it comes down to that individuality and it’s really important to ensure that you’re comfortable.

 

with who you are engaging with to guide you with your health because your health is so critically important. You only get one body, so you need to look after it as they say. And so it’s really important that you get this right.

 

DI (09:57)

How long in your own situation, Azra, did you try and find solutions to what was your ill health at that point in time?

 

AZRA (10:08)

years Di I suffered from migraines since my 20s and it just continually got worse to the point that when I got to my 50s I was getting migraines every three days debilitating migraines that were causing severe nausea I was bedridden it’s a bit

 

DI (10:27)

This is 30 years without a solution.

 

AZRA (10:30)

Yeah, yeah and when I’d go to the doctor they would just keep prescribing stronger medication and for me that was not something that aligned with my values and it also ended up destroying my gut health as well as a result of being on medication that was prescribed to me and so you know we know that we have the gut-brain axis and the importance of how the gut health

 

⁓ works with the rest of our body and why it’s so critically important to maintain good gut health so that we can have good health overall because it’s so closely connected with everything else. And so once I understood that through working with alternative medical practitioners, I was then able to identify a pathway that was right for me, that worked for me, that helped heal my gut.

 

I ended up doing a complete six month detox where I cut out refined sugars, gluten, dairy, alcohol for six months and a whole heap of other foods as well to be able to detox my body, to reduce my inflammation, to be able to heal my gut. And following on from that, I have not had a migraine since. And so if that’s not a testament to how alternative treatments can help, then I don’t know what.

 

DI (11:44)

Yeah, so of those four key things that you took out of your diet, what have you brought back in?

 

AZRA (11:52)

alcohol.

 

DI (11:56)

You don’t have to apologize for that, Azra. That’s okay. It’s just the amount.

 

AZRA (12:00)

Hey, I have a European heritage and it’s very difficult. It is my vice and I do like, you know, a nice glass of red on a cold evening in front of the fireplace. ⁓ But I must say have cut back on alcohol significantly and I have to be aware of that and I’m conscious of the decisions that I make when I do choose to drink alcohol. So I cut it right back to only drinking socially. I don’t drink when I’m at home. Unfortunately, my husband doesn’t drink alcohol so it makes it really easy for me.

 

DI (12:27)

My world’s very similar. My husband’s not a drinker and the same thing. I’ve taken out all drinking at home and only drink socially and it makes a massive difference.

 

AZRA (12:41)

It does, it does, doesn’t it? I think my, as an example, my skin has…

 

DI (12:46)

And you’ve got to designate a driver and your husband and that’s a good thing. ⁓

 

AZRA (12:51)

Oh

 

for sure, 100 % is so great having my husband as a designated driver. But it is about making those conscious choices and then also putting in hacks that help to counteract some of the damage that might be being done as a result of having that occasional social drink. So for me because I’ve had gut dysbiosis, I know as an integrative nutrition health coach that alcohol is not great for my gut lining wall. I know that.

 

But you’ve also got to live life as well. So it’s not about being perfect, it’s about implementing small hacks that are workable, that can be sustainable, and being real about it, as I am, and then understanding how those choices may impact you. So then you can implement other hacks to try to counteract that. So I have certain supplements that I take to help ensure that I protect my gut health lining more.

 

⁓ gut lining or other so it’s it’s really about being cognizant of that and making those those choices to help

 

DI (13:52)

to prevent some that. And tell me about taking out sugar because, and you know, that’s one of my, one of my bugbears. I had to get to 59 years of age before I had the strength and resilience to say, okay, I am done with processed sugar, but it has been the most life-changing, transformative decision I have ever made in my life. The flow on effects, the positive.

 

flow on effects from that of no inflammation in the body. ⁓ Weight loss is, it’s not a breeze, it’s a discipline, but it’s certainly made a massive difference and taking up processed sugar means you clean up your act in general because you review how you eat, what you eat, and all that processed food just falls away as part of it. I’d love to hear

 

How that played out for you taking up processed sugar.

 

AZRA (14:54)

It was difficult. I won’t deny that. Absolutely. do have a sweet

 

DI (14:57)

Yes, so do I. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.

 

AZRA (15:02)

No. And so for me it was about education and I think that’s where I come back to what I mentioned earlier about empowering ourselves. So once we can educate ourselves around a why we should cut out refined sugar and why it’s bad for us then also looking at well what can we replace it with what are the swaps that we can then implement so we feel don’t feel like we’re missing out.

 

And from a behavioral change perspective, it’s really important that we set ourselves up for success. So I often talk to clients about controlling your environment so you can set yourself up for success. So go through your pantry, go through your fridge, clean everything out, get rid of anything that’s got the refined sugars, get rid of high processed foods, and aim to have whole foods. But then also bring in other items, other ingredients that you can swap in. For instance, example organic maple syrup is a great alternative.

 

know instead of having refined sugar or you could use stevia. I’m not a huge advocate of stevia so I feel it’s a little bit processed.

 

DI (16:03)

Yeah, me too, because to your point it comes back to processed again.

 

AZRA (16:09)

That’s right. And so there are natural alternatives honey is another example as well and that you can Implement into your diet that are healthy for you that don’t make you feel like you’re missing out but for me it was critical that I cut out the refined sugars because That was also contributing to my poor gut health. And so when we look at dysbiosis, it’s about having a ⁓ Imbalance between the good bacteria and the bad bacteria in our gut

 

And so refined sugar can contribute to that by feeding the bad bacteria and creating candida as well within the gut. And so that then creates further inflammation within the body. And so we need to look at, what can we do to cut those refined sugars out so that we can start to reduce that inflammation and get the balance back again and feed the good bacteria so that you’re not craving the sugar either, because it’s the bad bacteria that’s actually making you

 

DI (17:06)

you ever get a craving for sugar? Is there a weak moment that that hankering comes back?

 

AZRA (17:13)

sure my weak moment is always after dinner at night. Yeah right. something sweet and again that’s because for years and years and years my body was in tune to having dessert after a meal. You that’s how I was brought up and so my bacteria. switch. It does. It gets. Yep it does. It gets less. The craving is significantly less.

 

DI (17:32)

Over time though.

 

It’s Liz.

 

AZRA (17:41)

but it’s still there and it’s something that I’m very conscious of and it’s something that I have to work on on a constant basis to be able to resist that and so I look at other ways of trying to minimize that craving so it might be having a piece of fruit you know after dinner so that that mitigates that craving and it’s a healthier option but you’re getting a little bit of a sweet.

 

DI (18:07)

Yeah. I smiled when you said about controlling your environment. I think it’s my A-type personality approach to life is I work on controlling me and less so about working on controlling the environment. So, because that’s the one thing I can control. I can’t control my environment, you know, in a broader sense. tapping into that A-type, I can control me.

 

And it takes discipline. It’s not easily done, is it? mean, nothing comes easily. We’d be lying if we tried to promote that some of these changes don’t require some serious commitment to make that change.

 

AZRA (18:58)

for sure and it’s even more difficult when you have a family at home, you have a partner at home and they’re not in alignment with what you’re trying to do. So that makes it much more difficult because the temptation is there.

 

DI (19:10)

Yeah, we can’t quite control them. And nor should we. And nor should we.

 

AZRA (19:12)

No, you can’t.

 

No, no, but when my children were living at home and I was trying to implement more healthy choices, there was a lot of resistance from my boys in particular because they were, no, we want to be able to eat McDonald’s and we want to be able to eat as much meat as we want and I was trying to incorporate more plant food, but you know, they have to learn that themselves.

 

DI (19:38)

So coming up, Five bio hacks to improve your energy and your focus.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So Azra, let’s run through five everyday biohacks that one, don’t cost a fortune to do. They’re not about adopting any extreme lifestyle ⁓ changes. And there’s something that’s within reach of all of us. So I’ll just run through the list and then if we could do a deep dive into each of those, if we could. So on that list of five, we’ve got morning sunlight.

 

We’ve got cold exposure. We’ve got sleep optimization, intermittent fasting, and then the fifth one being mindfulness breath work. Let’s start with morning sunshine as a biohack.

 

AZRA (20:44)

It’s one of my favorite bio hacks and as you said these are cost free buy hacks which are so easy to implement and this goes back to ancestral days and this is something that our ancestors have been doing intuitively for you know many many years but we’ve lost the art of exposing ourselves to morning light because of the fact that we live indoors so much now.

 

and morning light benefits our health significantly because it helps to improve our circadian rhythms and so we are often exposed to significant amounts of blue light like we are today we’re sitting in front of computers and blue light we know is really bad for our circadian rhythms which is why we need to expose ourselves to that morning light so we’re getting

 

the right light in the morning to help reset our circadian rhythms. And so I’ve recently been traveling a bit and been in different time zones. And One of the first things that I do when I hit the ground in a new country is that I try to go outside as early as possible and as soon as possible so I can get that early morning sunlight into my eyes. to be able to signify to my body, okay, this is the time zone that I am in and this is what’s going to reset that real master clock in within my brain to be able to say,

 

this time of the day my cortisol levels should be up so that I can be functioning and alert and vibrant and my melatonin levels should be going down at this time in the morning where then in the evenings we want to limit our exposure to the blue light and dim lights or have red light ⁓ on in our homes or candle light even so that we’re signaling to our

 

to our circadian rhythm that hey it’s time to wind down so then the melatonin levels will come up and our body will start to realise okay it’s rest time it’s rest and recovery time and then we can get into that regular sleep routine. So this the morning light is really important for helping to reset that circadian clock.

 

DI (22:47)

So is that a reset for ⁓ jet lag as well once you get into? so re going out, getting that morning light in your eyes in the new time zone is a reset to assist with jet lag.

 

AZRA (23:04)

Yep, absolutely. And you only need about 10 to 15 minutes of light exposure in the morning. Yeah. And take your glasses off, so we don’t want to be wearing sunglasses or our eye glasses. We have to have the light going straight into our eyes to be able to get the benefit of it. And also doing the grounding as well. So if you can, get your shoes off and get onto the grass, walk on the grass, walk on the beach on the sand so that you can actually then…

 

recharge in that time zone and that really helps to ground and really significantly improve how our nervous system is operating as well because that gets impacted as well when we travel and when we experience jet

 

DI (23:42)

Yeah, brilliant. Cold exposure. And I’m playing around with this at the moment. so I’ll be really interested in what you have to say.

 

AZRA (23:52)

So how are you going with it? Are you enjoying it or is it a challenge?

 

DI (23:56)

So,

 

what I am doing every morning now, and I’ve spent my life jumping into the shower, running around the outside, avoiding the flow of water until it’s warmed up. That’s been my… and I would think most people would do that. However, now, and where I live, I’m in the middle of winter, and I think I said to you before we started recording, some of the mornings have been one and two degrees, and… ⁓

 

when you turn on that cold water, the water that comes out is cold, But in actual fact, if you walk into the flow, it gets colder again before it gets warmer. So I have trained myself through again, power of control of me, not the environment for the last two months to walk straight into that cold blast flow of water in the shower. And it’s a deal breaker.

 

wakes you up, I don’t feel I need the rest of the shower to run as hot as I used to because the contrast now between hot and cold has changed. And instead of having that groggy feeling, if you haven’t had a, you know, perhaps the optimal sleep, it sparks you into action.

 

as hard as it is to do on some mornings, because some mornings it feels like the last thing you want to do. And it’s only a matter of seconds, so it’s probably only 15 to 20 seconds. But I wouldn’t not do it now, any day, jumping into the shower, because it gets me going, it wakes me up, and it brings me to a point of consciousness that I can’t get by jumping under a steaming hot shower.

 

AZRA (25:48)

Well well done because it takes a lot of mindset shift and built up resilience to be able to do something like that. And so with cold therapy or cryotherapy you know there’s different terms for it. I have a differing view on it to what I used to have in my 40s and that’s because the research has moved on. And so we’ve often seen all of these men these tech bros that have been out there and

 

know Bim Hof is is an iconic you know person that’s been advocating cold therapy and that’s all great for the boys but we are different women are different we’re cyclical beings and we have to take that into consideration when we are doing cold therapy and so cold therapy is really important

 

for us in terms of making sure that we can increase the cortisol levels, which is what you experience by going into the shower in the morning and waking you up, you get the dopamine increase and the serotonin increase, and yet, bam, we’re up and ready, we’re ready to go. But we need to factor in our hormonal fluctuations, we need to factor in what stage are we.

 

within our cycle and When should we actually been doing cold therapy and we should be we shouldn’t be doing cold therapy at the same temperature as the boys. So for the boys they’ll go down to five degrees. and I’ve done that. Absolutely I’ve done that. But I now know that’s bad for me because it can impact my adrenals. Can

 

impact my cortisol levels and send them skyrocket, which is not something that we want because we know that high cortisol levels and ongoing chronic stress is bad for us. It actually ages us faster. And so it’s really about taking into consideration about as women, what phase are we in our life and when is the appropriate time to be able to be doing the cold therapy. And so I would only recommend that we’re doing it one to two times a week.

 

and that we’re doing that in our follicular phase for those that are still menstruating. But for women that are menopause, ⁓ postmenopause, perimenopause, again we take a different approach there as well. So it really is about understanding what’s going on with our hormones and listening to our bodies again to ensure that we’re doing that type of treatment, that type of bi-hack at the right time because we don’t want to increase those.

 

those cortisol levels and to mess around with the hormones or our adrenals either because that can happen. So we just need to consider that individually.

 

DI (28:28)

Here’s the irony. So the cold therapy conversation is only relatively new. But yet again, we jump in and treat men and women from the outset when they started as the same, and the same as we’ve done with medical research and medical practices. And I’ve talked about this on this podcast with Hima Prakash from Ponte Health and with Professor Nada Hamad, who’s ⁓

 

renowned haematologist of this whole ⁓ misconception that we can approach healthcare for men and women in the same way. We’re different beings.

 

AZRA (29:11)

We so are and this is something that I’m really passionate about because historically we have seen a lot of the research that’s been done, the scientific studies that have been done, have been done on men or a small group of women at certain ages and so we need to be investing more in women’s health in terms of the research and the scientific studies that are done so we can understand what is right for women as opposed to what is right for men and so when we look at cold therapy

 

My recommendation, what I do now is to do my cold therapy at a higher temperature, more around 13 degrees rather than five degrees.

 

DI (29:47)

I wonder what my cold shower is. I know it’s just bloody freezing. don’t know what that equates to in degrees.

 

AZRA (29:56)

You’ll have to try and check that. But it’s, you know, the way that you’ve done it, you know, some people might be thinking about, how can I look at embracing cold therapy? And I would say do it exactly the way that you’ve done it through cold showers, but you don’t necessarily have to jump in and do it full on straight away. You can start off with a hotter shower and then split it over to a colder temperature for 30 seconds and then go back for 30 seconds and…

 

alternate for a little while and that helps you to build up the mindset and the resilience so that you can get to the point where you can have a cold shower completely without the hot water.

 

DI (30:31)

Well, and I have to admit, Azra, it wasn’t plunging my whole body in the first instance under that flowing water. was, you know, it started off with a little bit of a side and a leg. It took some serious, you know, working up to being able to walk into the flow of cold water. So, and that took about a month. So, it’s not for the faint-hearted.

 

AZRA (30:58)

take a while.

 

So all the mindset and breath work is really important in leading into cold therapy as well. For me I really have to get into the right mindset.

 

DI (31:10)

There’s a few curse words that come out with that breath work some mornings. depends on cold it is. So biohack number three, sleep optimization.

 

AZRA (31:23)

Sleep is so vitally important and it is absolutely critical. We need to ensure that we’re getting the right amount of deep regenerative sleep and as women we often don’t get that. And I will put my hand up as being one of those women who struggled with sleep for many, many years. And it’s probably only in the past couple of years to be honest that I’ve got on top of my sleep and really.

 

got it to where it should be. I think it’s because I’m a mum of three kids and I taught my body to be on for many, many years so that I became a very like. Yeah, exactly. You know, so that you can wake up if your child wakes up in the night. You want to be able to get up to care for your child. So there was that. I’m also was also a night owl for many years as I was studying, having my children or working full time. I had no choice but to stay up late at night.

 

DI (32:00)

Sleep up.

 

AZRA (32:19)

and study. I remember sitting up to 2am, 3am in the morning to be able to get my assignments done when I was studying my degrees and so I had to reverse all of that to be able to get my sleep patterns back to what they should be now at my age now and so we know that if we don’t get the right amount of sleep that that can age us faster.

 

DI (32:41)

So what is the right amount of sleep? Is that the same amount of sleep for everybody or do we all have different requirements?

 

AZRA (32:49)

we do all have different requirements and there are studies that show this but on average the science shows that we should be getting anywhere between six to eight hours of sleep every single night and so if you’re there are a minority few who are able to function on four to five hours. I’m not certainly not one of those people by any means. I would wake up feeling like I was drunk if I only got four

 

DI (33:14)

Yeah,

 

under six hours is where the wheels fall off in my world.

 

AZRA (33:19)

Yeah. Yeah and I turn into a really cranky person if I don’t get enough sleep. That’s one of the things that my husband knows to not interrupt as she’s sleeping because if she wakes up she’s going to be cranky as. So it’s really important. We know that this that sleep is important for regeneration as well for healing for cellular regeneration. I like to think of it as a as the garbage truck that comes through while we’re sleeping and it

 

cleans out all the toxins, it cleans out all the waste. a simplified way of explaining what how the how the body works while we’re sleeping. and So we see that glymphatic cleansing that happens and it comes in this garbage truck comes in if we’re getting the right amount of sleep and we’re getting into that deep sleep so that we can get rid of those

 

toxins and the waste out of our body and we can get that cellular regeneration that’s so important. And we know that when we don’t get that sort of regenerative sleep that it impacts our cognition we start to see that we might experience a little bit more of brain fog or we’re waking up and we’re feeling really sluggish and it takes us a little while to get cracking in the morning and that’s because we haven’t got it right yet we haven’t got

 

sleep routine right. and so when we’re looking at getting the right amount of sleep it’s really important to implement certain biohacks and that is like I mentioned before about getting ⁓ the lights down low and making sure that we’re not exposing ourselves to blue light trying to ensure that we don’t eat three hours two to three hours before we go to sleep at night so the body doesn’t think that it’s actually in digest mode

 

that we are looking at a regular sleep routine so that we’ve got those cues, those signals every single evening to be able to trigger the body to say, yep, it’s wind down time. So for me, it’s after dinner, we do the dishes, we turn the lights off, we turn all of the devices off and we’ll, you know, have some red light that we will read a book, you know, with and then you go and have a shower and

 

that hot water, that nice hot shower sends a signal to the body that it’s time for us to start to slow down and wind down and go to sleep. And going to sleep and waking at the same time as well is really important as good signals to the body too. So for me, I’ll go to bed by around 9.30 at night most of the time. So obviously if I’m out and about socializing, I’m not always going to achieve that. But the body likes routine and so if we can try to stick to a routine.

 

For me, as I said, go to sleep at 9.30 at night, wake up at 5.30 in the morning. And then you’re getting that indication there all the time in signaling the body of when you should be waking up and when you should be going to sleep. And your melatonin levels and your cortisol levels will start to play nicer for you.

 

DI (36:07)

And if we have any doubt, can remember being on a business study tour, traveling, cities quickly every couple of days a few years ago. And I remember getting to London and I think I probably landed in London with a few hours sleep on a plane and then we kept going. And that afternoon I got a message that came through from my health monitor on my wrist to tell me that my cognitive impairment

 

was similar to being drunk because I was under four hours sleep. And so if we’ve got any doubt, that’s how it impacts us.

 

AZRA (36:46)

Yeah, 100%. And it can be dangerous as well. We don’t want to be going off and driving a car if we haven’t had sufficient amount of sleep because the science shows that the effects of poor sleep are the same as being under the influence of alcohol because cognitively we’re not functioning at 100%.

 

DI (37:02)

Yeah. So, biohack number five, intermittent fasting. This is another one that I’ve implemented in my world in more recent times.

 

AZRA (37:14)

there are different theories out there around intermittent fasting. Women? Yes and what works for men and what works for women. And again it’s because we’re cyclical beings and we need to be choosing the right times to be able to be fasting. So for me I was intermittent fasting a lot back in my 30s and my 40s and it worked really effectively for me. Intermittent fasting

 

DI (37:18)

for men and for

 

AZRA (37:39)

has significant longevity benefits for the body because it triggers autophagy and that cellular cleaning process and it helps to get rid of excess fat and so on because your body goes into ketosis and there are different types of intermittent fasting that we can do. But again for women we need to be really considerate about when we are intermittent fasting.

 

When we are in our follicular phase we want to be ensuring that we’re looking after ourselves, that we’re nurturing ourselves, that we are replenishing ourselves nutritionally. And so it’s important not to be intermittent fasting during those those times because it can mess with your hormones as well and it can mess with our hormones as perimenopause and menopausal women as well. And so we need to take that into consideration.

 

Again, I always come back to saying listen to your body, your body will tell you whether it’s right for you or not. These days I am very considerate about when I intermittent fast because as an older woman I want to ensure that I’m not impacting my muscle regeneration either as well and my muscle building. And so we know from the latest studies that are out there and there are a number of prominent female doctors that are saying this as well that we shouldn’t be fasting when we’re working out in the morning.

 

So if I’m doing my strength training in the mornings, I’m not going to be fasting that day because I need to ensure that I fuel up in the morning so that I can get the most out of my workout in the morning and then I can get that muscle growth that I need to get in order to ensure that I age well, that I reduce my likelihood of osteoporosis and so on as I get older. And so it really is important for us to consider the individual person.

 

what time they are in their phase as well and looking at whether they’re in that menopausal phase or perimenopausal phase. It’s different for everybody.

 

DI (39:38)

What about the last one, mindfulness and breath work? I will predict that that is one that is more standardized across the board, whoever you are and whatever age we’re at.

 

AZRA (39:51)

Yeah, it’s so powerful, mindfulness and breath work. Again, women can be high strung, women can suffer from anxiety, women can suffer from high cortisol levels. We have rushing women syndrome, we’re always on the go. And so this is an excellent tool for us to be able to embrace, to help to bring those cortisol levels down so we’re not doing the damage from increased cortisol levels. on an extended period of time.

 

For me, I use breath work a lot before I go to sleep at night. It is a way that I signal to my body that hey, get into that parasympathetic nervous system so that we can calm down and we can really start to rest and regenerate. And so I will do either the box breathing which is four by four by four or I will do the inhaled sigh breathing where you take a deep breath in and do another short breath and then exhale through your mouth.

 

way and do that a few times and that it works so quickly. just love how quickly it works and within minutes I’m asleep. I fall into a beautiful deep sleep. ⁓ you know I think meditation, mindfulness, these are all tools that we can use on a daily basis and I know that there are a lot of people out there that think that it’s difficult to do things like meditation or mindfulness because

 

their mindset is not quite there and I’m one of those people.

 

DI (41:19)

And I think when we’re rushing and we’re busy and we’re under pressure, if we really did for a moment stop and focus on our breathing, I think we’d probably acknowledge that half of it seems to stop here and it doesn’t get down into the depths of our bodies.

 

AZRA (41:37)

Yeah, we’re shallow breathers. We breathe from here often and we don’t even realize that we do it. We do it all the time. And so even using your phone to maybe set a reminder several times during the day where it can go off and you can then stop and think, okay, I’m going to do some deep breathing now.

 

DI (41:58)

Yeah, I have calendar reminders to remind me to do exactly that.

 

AZRA (42:02)

how powerful is that in helping to reset for the day if you’ve had a stressful meeting or you’ve been really busy with the kids. It’s an opportunity to take five minutes, ten minutes out for yourself to stop, pause, breathe, reset. Your body will love you for it and the benefits will be absolutely amazing for the in the long term.

 

DI (42:27)

Fantastic. So when you look at these bio hacks together, Azra, and it’s not about chasing youth per se, it’s about building power, building our energy, improving our overall wellbeing. If we look at an overarching philosophy around that, what is your philosophy to ageing well? you could…

 

put that down into a short succinct positioning statement for somebody listening.

 

AZRA (43:01)

For me, ageing well is about taking control of your own biology, to be able to implement biohacks so that you can optimise your health to live well longer. It’s as simple as that. I know that if I was to look back at my younger self, that I would say, hey, put yourself first. Because if you’re not looking after your health, and if you’re not looking after yourself, you can’t be there for your family. I’ve had friends recently who have gone through some significant health issues.

 

and they’re all having aha moments when they’re realizing that hey when you get taken out like that you can’t be there for your family. So yes we need to prioritize ourselves and we should not be apologetic at all for doing that. We should be embracing doing that for ourselves and taking the time out and Empowering ourselves to be able to proactively manage our health.

 

so that we can continue to live well longer and so that we continue to stay healthy for as long as possible.

 

DI (44:02)

And I think one of my takeaways from what you just said there is I think in the past we’ve been conditioned to push through and be stoic and ignore what’s going on where we really need to celebrate those who stop, listen, respond, as to your point, prioritize ourself because stoicism’s probably been our worst enemy.

 

in terms of ignoring, pushing through when we’re ignoring what’s going on in terms of our health and wellbeing.

 

AZRA (44:38)

sure and I I think that also like I did in my 40s and my 50s that when you’re starting to get older there’s a resistance there in our mindset about aging and we have to pause to stop to look at that and consider why is there that resistance and it might be for a number of reasons. It might be that we are scared of losing our identity who we think we are in our mind at a particular time that

 

DI (45:05)

stoic workaholic not necessarily doing us any favors

 

AZRA (45:09)

Or it might be that we are experiencing some current health issues at the moment and getting older, oh my goodness, it’s only going to get worse. If I’m experiencing it now and I’m struggling now, I might be a diabetic or there might be some other chronic health issues that I’m currently experiencing and as I get older we think that that’s inevitable but it’s not necessarily inevitable and a lot of the chronic illnesses that we experience as a result of aging.

 

can be reversed if we make the right lifestyle choices. And the other thing as well is that I think that people sometimes are scared of getting older because of that, because of the fact that, we’re going to get chronically ill or I’m going to end up with cancer or I’m going to lose my mobility or I’m going to lose my cognition and I don’t want that to happen to me. So the answer is biohacking. The answer is taking your power back, taking control of your own health.

 

implementing simple hacks as we’ve discussed today so that you can limit those detrimental effects of aging and you can reverse some of those aging effects and to ensure that you can stay vital and healthy for as long as possible.

 

DI (46:21)

So how can somebody find you if they want to tap into what you do at Biohacker, Azra?

 

AZRA (46:26)

Well, they can find me on any of my socials, so all my website, buy hack her health. ⁓ And I’m also going to be speaking at the Wonderlust event as well in October. So they can come along to see me at that. ⁓ And Instagram, Facebook, any of those socials that can reach out to me.

 

DI (46:46)

So five everyday bio hacks that can become your superpower. Sunlight, cold therapy, more sleep, the right approach to intermittent fasting, and probably the easiest and one of the most powerful of all being breath work and mindfulness. All affordable, all transformative, and all within reach of everybody every day.

 

So Azra, thank you so much for joining me on the Power of Women podcast today. know coming in I might have had some question marks about Biohack being gimmicky, it’s not. It’s grounded alternative therapy or alternative approach that you can take an integrated approach to East West Biohack, marry it together and determine what works well for you. ⁓

 

about not necessarily living longer, but living a healthier, longevity. Let me redo that again, Daryl. It’s not necessarily about living longer, but it’s about living well for longer. And that is absolutely the key to it. Until next time.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

 

Find Azra at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/azra-alagic-77794526/

Website https://www.biohack-her.com/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/biohackher_official/

 

If you’re ready to take back control of your health, stop apologising for prioritising yourself, and embrace everyday hacks that make you stronger – this episode is for you.

 

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How To Reclaim Pleasure and Power in Midlife

How To Reclaim Pleasure and Power in Midlife

by | Sep 22, 2025 | Female Empowerment, Female Leaders, Female Podcast, Female Power

Midlife doesn’t have to mean burnout, invisibility, or decline. It can be the moment you reclaim your pleasure, power, and presence.

In this Power Of Women Podcast episode, I’m joined by Natty Frasca, Pleasure Coach, rebel rouser, and founder of The Feminine Rebellion. Together we unpack why so many high-achieving women feel unfulfilled despite “having it all,” and how the key to transformation lies in reconnecting with pleasure in all its forms.

From the neuroscience of pleasure to challenging the myths of aging, Natty shares why visibility is an act of rebellion, and how every woman can own the room she walks into. Not through performance, but through presence.

If you’ve ever felt numb, disconnected, or pressured to keep “holding it all together,” this conversation is the reminder that midlife isn’t your crisis ~ it’s your revolution.

 

We explore:

➜ What pleasure really means beyond sex

➜ Why aging is a superpower, not a decline

➜ How visibility can transform your confidence and power

 

Natty said:

“Aging is our superpower.”

“Stop apologizing for wanting more.”

“The most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

NATTY (00:00)

So I am Natty Frasca, rebel rouser, pleasure coach for midlife women. I’m obsessed with helping women live turned on lives. I’m a mom of three. I’m a total nerd, lover of science, pleasure and sisterhood, especially at this stage of our lives. I believe our age is our superpower. ⁓ And I believe that it’s time women stop playing small.

 

And I’m also the founder of the Feminine Rebellion.

 

DI (00:33)

I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table. So hit follow and the subscribe button and make sure you are sure to be part of every bold, unfiltered, game-changing story we tell here at the Power of Women podcast.

 

Today my guest is Natty Frasca and she is a fierce advocate for midlife as your revolution. Joining me from Boston, she’s here to flip the script on aging, on success and what it really means to feel alive again. So where are we going to talk about the neuroscience of pleasure, reclaiming your power at any age and how to own every damn room you walk into. Natty Frasca.

 

Welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

NATTY (01:33)

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for having me here. It’s my absolute pleasure, and I mean that.

 

DI (01:40)

Nettie, for those who are just meeting you in my part of the world, all for my international followers, tell us a little about who you are.

 

NATTY (01:50)

Yeah, sure. So I’m the founder of the Feminine Rebellion. I am a coach for midlife women who look like they have it all on the outside, but feel little numb, burned out, or like something is missing. And I help these women unbind from all of the BS conditioning about

 

how women are supposed to behave, ⁓ who we should be and help them connect with their own pleasure, with power, with presence. ⁓ Yeah, I believe when a woman comes alive, she becomes completely unstoppable. And there’s a massive ripple effect to that. ⁓ It changes families, communities and the world. So I’m here for big things.

 

DI (02:43)

Fabulous. So could we start with just a little bit about your story? Because you were in the corporate world, married, three kids, beautiful home, successful career. But as I understand it, there was a pivot point for you because it didn’t all gel.

 

NATTY (03:01)

It didn’t all gel. was, it happened over a few years where I just started feeling really numb. I remember lying in bed and thinking, you know, there’s something off. Why aren’t I happy? I feel like I have all of this, you know, why aren’t I grateful for it? And there was actually quite a bit of shame and guilt attached to that.

 

I actually asked for a divorce at that time. I thought if I just burned down my marriage, ⁓ I would be free to do what I wanted. Well, it’s a we had been in couples therapy for years and it’s a really interesting story and this is probably like the pivot point for me. ⁓ We were in a couple therapy session and I just decided I wanted out and I wanted to kind of start a fresh life and

 

DI (03:41)

How did that go?

 

NATTY (04:00)

My therapist, our therapist said, so, you know, what do you want? And I said, you know, a condo in the center of town, someone to shovel my walkway, you know, a nanny and, you know, probably like a lover or two. And he laughed and he’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what I meant. ⁓ Let me ask it a different way, Natty. ⁓ How do you, how do you want to feel? How do you want to feel? And I was like, wait.

 

I don’t understand the question. How do I want to feel? I was completely stumped. you know, grew up in the youngest of three kids, Italian American family, very, you know, Catholic, really learned how to work hard, how to hustle, how to keep up with the boys. I never thought about how I wanted to feel.

 

⁓ But I paused and what came to me was a vision and it was this vision of myself at my kitchen counter stirring like a pot of my grandmother’s ragu. Jerry Garcia is on the radio. I’ve got three little kids. They’re dancing wildly and my husband comes up behind me, rests his beard on my neck, puts a glass of Cabernet next to me and like wraps his arms around my waist.

 

And I started to cry. And I was like, that’s, I described what I saw and I said, that’s how I want to feel. I want to feel seen, adored, taken care of, revered like a queen. I want to be the center of your universe. I want to feel. And it was, as I was saying those words, I was so, I was kind of embarrassed.

 

DI (05:46)

You felt how far you were from that?

 

NATTY (05:50)

Well, no, I was embarrassed because I thought of myself as this real hustle go-getter feminist.

 

DI (05:57)

And that’s not what you’re asking for. Yeah.

 

NATTY (06:00)

Yeah. And what I, when I paused and dropped in and thought about what I really wanted and it just came to me, it was the opposite of what I thought I wanted. You know, I had a high powered career. I was a, you know, it was like a Girl Scout leader. I was, you know, cooking organic meals from scratch and batching them in my, I mean, I was like,

 

Martha Stewart meets, I don’t know, whatever, you know.

 

DI (06:32)

On steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

NATTY (06:34)

Yeah. And I like didn’t care about, you know, I was like, I can’t believe I actually, all I want is love. And all I want to do is slow down. And then that was like, cracked something open in me. And I thought I’ve been doing all of this wrong. And in that moment, my husband said to me, well, I can’t believe you’re saying this. Like, I want to give that to you, but you won’t let me.

 

DI (07:01)

way.

 

NATTY (07:03)

And I was like, what? And so that was the beginning of us kind of repairing our marriage. But really, it was the beginning of my own personal journey. That it was like, I don’t need to be so tough. I don’t need to be so fierce in that way only. I can also be like fiercely, I can be an advocate for myself.

 

And that, you know, wanting to slow down, wanting to be loved, wanting to be touched, wanting to be adored. So that was 10 years ago. Yeah. So it’s been a journey of unbecoming, unbinding from all of these narratives that I had inherited ⁓ and, you know, reclaiming pleasure for myself, for no one else, stopping people pleasing.

 

really becoming so beautifully selfish ⁓ and just coming alive. So that’s a long answer to your question.

 

DI (08:00)

Yeah.

 

And can I ask, did the marriage make it or did you?

 

NATTY (08:12)

Yes, my god, yes. Wow. Yeah, so we’re 23 years in.

 

DI (08:16)

congratulations. That’s pretty cool because you were right up against the glass of walking away by the sounds of it.

 

NATTY (08:24)

I had a lawyer. Yeah. I was, yeah, I was, I was ready to go and, you know, he said, let’s, you know, let’s, let’s try it a different way. And, you know, I don’t believe in sunshine and rainbows and unicorns and everything’s perfect. You know, it’s just, that’s bullshit as far as I’m concerned. So I’ve, ⁓ committed this marriage. We are friends. We have shit. Of course. Right.

 

DI (08:51)

Have a shit. Yeah.

 

NATTY (08:53)

I’ve coached hundreds of women and even ones who were happily married. You know, we all think about burning it down from moment to moment, to month. I mean, come on.

 

DI (09:10)

We do. I’m just about to hit 20 years and you know, right? You’d be lying if you said it was all good. That’s just not how the world works.

 

NATTY (09:20)

be lying. But this is the thing is that like people do lie and people do pretend. And that is what I’m here to help dismantle is that the more women that can actually tell the truth and show their cards and be honest.

 

about where they are in their lives, I mean, the stronger their collective becomes, right? We don’t have to do this work alone. It’s like we’ve been taught to pretend. We’ve been taught to like say, I’m fine. It’s all good. When on the inside, we’re dying. And that’s where it was 10 years ago. You know, everyone thought that I had it all.

 

DI (10:05)

So with the work you’re doing with high achieving women and them getting really honest with themselves, is there a common thread going around and the narrative of commonality or is it all unique?

 

NATTY (10:21)

It’s pretty common. It’s pretty common. It’s, it’s, I’ve checked every box, but I still feel empty. I miss feeling sexy and free and alive. I’m exhausted from holding it all together for everyone. ⁓ I want more, but I don’t even know what that looks like. They’re all carrying so much and

 

They’re terrified that wanting more makes them selfish or a bad person or ungrateful. ⁓ But they’re really craving a life where they feel fully themselves, where they feel purposeful, where they feel on fire, where they feel free. ⁓ So it’s really same, same.

 

DI (11:12)

Yeah and in terms of, mean I’m asking this almost knowing the answer but I’m often surprised. What is the common age where the wheels start to fall off?

 

NATTY (11:24)

45, 46 when they start to fall off. ⁓

 

50 when they decide something has to change. Yeah.

 

It’s like a magic moment. It’s I don’t know whether it’s like it’s just the halfway point. It’s a really clean line. But 50 just seems to be like a switch.

 

DI (11:40)

Mm-hmm.

 

Sure is, but…

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk about pleasure because I know that’s one of your ⁓ big calling cards. Yeah. Why do so many women disconnect from it? What’s the reason?

 

NATTY (12:10)

Well, we live in a patriarchal society that has completely disconnected us from pleasure because we’re taught from a very early age

 

DI (12:21)

to

 

perform.

 

NATTY (12:24)

Yeah, exactly. To perform, to slap a smile on our face, to produce, to please everyone around us but ourselves. And those narratives, you I call it the patriarchal pathway. So, you know, it’s a very well-worn pathway for how a woman should be in the world, right? So you should do well in school.

 

You should dress like a lady, cross your legs. Notice my legs up on my desk. I’m actively rebelling. ⁓ You know, do well in school. ⁓ You know, level up in your career. Find a man to marry, have children, continue, you know, please take care of, be the epicenter of this family. Take care of everyone else. Be the emotional caregiver and the physical caregiver. And

 

You know, it doesn’t stop, right? We emotionally care give our male partners. you know, we just never have, has anyone taught us to be in touch with what we want or what turns us on, right? And

 

you know, when I talk about pleasure, people’s minds immediately go to the hypersexual. Yeah. But it isn’t just about sex. That’s one part of it. That’s one end of the spectrum. But really pleasures anything that lights you up, anything that engages your senses and makes you feel alive. It’s it’s dancing to your favorite music. It’s eating.

 

your lunch, you know, outside on your stoop in the sunshine, right? It’s deep belly laughs with like your sisterhood. It’s also maybe stillness in the forest. It’s so unique, right? But pleasure is also deep presence with yourself. It’s like the moment where you drop out of your head and into your body. And

 

you learn over time as you practice pleasure and you pump more of this into your life, you know, what turns you on? What are the things that make you feel alive? And then that way, becoming present to pleasure becomes super powerful because we can begin to shift. We can use it as a compass to kind of begin to shift our lives in that direction. And, ⁓ I you can start small,

 

But then, you know, I’m 10 years in and, you know, I’m like going dancing in Ibiza next month with a group of girlfriends, you know, I’m going to see a concert in Amsterdam in three months. it’s like I’m just can’t stop won’t stop because it feels so good.

 

DI (15:18)

Yeah.

 

So when you’ve got these women in the room that you’re coaching Natty and you ask them, do they have pleasure in their lives? What’s the answer? What are they saying?

 

NATTY (15:33)

⁓ Well, it’s a mix of answers mostly like know what is pleasure. I don’t know what you mean, you yeah

 

DI (15:39)

That’s what I thought it would be. Yeah. Because there would be a word that isn’t in their vocab.

 

NATTY (15:44)

Well, usually by the time people work with me, they followed me for a while. So they know a little bit about what I’m, what I’m saying. But if someone’s brand new to my world, there’s a little bit of education that’s happening. And, you know, oftentimes I’ll ask the question, what did you love to do when you were a kid? So, you know, maybe it’s, you know, playing in the woods, maybe it’s dancing and we look for ways to.

 

bring that back into the surface of their everyday lives. Right? If you love to dance when you were a kid, you know, go take up a shuttle lesson. You know, see if you can get that feeling back in your body. We’re the same person. Yeah. The things that turned us on at seven are going to turn us on at 57.

 

DI (16:30)

So for the woman listening who hasn’t tapped into that yet, what’s one small thing she could do to turn up the dial?

 

NATTY (16:40)

I love this. ⁓ One question I love for women to ask themselves regularly, and I would encourage your listeners to do this, is to take 60 seconds, take a deep breath, close your eyes, come into your body and ask yourself the question, what would feel really good right now?

 

It’s so simple. But when I’m feeling a little bit off or I know I need a break or I’m sitting at my desk too long and I say, you know, what would feel really good right now? ⁓ Sometimes it’s just like stretching on my yoga mat next to my desk. Sometimes it’s like hitting my favorite Spotify playlist. Sometimes it’s a hot bath or like I always have a hot cup of tea.

 

So starting to tune in. Your body is brilliant and she will respond. It could be as simple as go get a glass of water.

 

DI (17:49)

Yeah.

 

NATTY (17:50)

But just that one question.

 

DI (17:52)

Yeah, interesting. So coming up, let’s talk about redefining aging and visibility.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So touching on aging, what’s the biggest misconception people have about it? How long have we got?

 

NATTY (18:19)

Yeah, this exactly. The biggest misconception is that aging is the decline, that it’s loss, that it’s, you know, irrelevance. It’s complete bullshit. Aging is our superpower. Yes. mean, aging is my wisdom, right? It’s my sharper boundaries. It’s giving fewer fucks about what other people think. It’s

 

you know, finally feeling free enough to just be yourself. mean, most of us are taught to dread aging, but I mean, I woke up, you know, at 40 and realized I’d been following these rules, all these rules that hadn’t made me happy and decided to stop being smaller, younger, quiet, you know, stop.

 

being the smaller version of myself and what I’ve realized now almost a decade later is all the fires I’ve walked through and that every single woman I’ve ever worked with has walked through. Like if you look back in your life and you look at all of the portals of transformation, like leaving people, changing jobs, know, moving house, raising children maybe, and like the hard crunchy moments, that is wisdom.

 

That is deep, deep wisdom. feel like I have never been smarter than I am or wiser than I am right now.

 

DI (19:50)

Yeah, he’s to that.

 

NATTY (19:52)

Yeah, and every woman I work with is so damn wise, so I’m just like, age, bring it on.

 

DI (20:00)

So you’ve come from the world of advertising. How much of that world hasn’t caught up? Because if I see another ad for an aged care home for saying women in their 50s look gray and finished, I mean…

 

NATTY (20:17)

I don’t know if we’re ever going to break free from that narrative, to be honest. mean, I think we’re in the middle of something right now that feels really powerful. This reclamation of the feminine, of feminine power, the reclamation of aging women, the reclamation of midlife. I mean, it’s in the water right now. And that’s fricking amazing.

 

DI (20:45)

I mean just jump on Instagram. It’s being shouted. I mean…

 

NATTY (20:49)

Yeah,

 

it is being shouted and I think it’s going to take us. Now it’s going to take more of us. that’s, you know, that’s one of the reasons why I do this work. It’s like the ripple effect of this work. The more women that I can work with, the more people I can connect with to, you know, show them, you know, the bullshit rules that we have been living under and how and to start disrupt them.

 

you know, the better off we all will be. But I mean, the beauty industry, let’s face it, it’s, I mean, how many billion dollar industry is it? You know, I haven’t looked it up recently, but it’s got to be in the hundreds of billions, right? Yeah. I think the most power that I have and anyone who has children, like I’ve got two daughters who are 21 and 20. And, you know, we just have these conversations all the time.

 

DI (21:44)

the men around you saying as they see what you’re doing and what you’re advocating? Are they on board? Are they challenged? What are they saying?

 

NATTY (21:54)

The people in my life are all about it. I mean, they are, you know, my fierce advocates. ⁓ My husband is a feminist. He is, you know, really at my back. ⁓ My dad, who is a 78 year old Italian American guy, thinks this is really fucking cool. And ⁓

 

You know, it gets a little uncomfortable when I use the word pussy. But, you know, but he’s on board. You know, I have two brothers, you know, I know they’re proud of me. ⁓ So and to be honest, I don’t have anyone in my life who isn’t on my side. I’m done with that. Yeah. Like the people in my life are

 

DI (22:44)

Yeah, they don’t need.

 

NATTY (22:53)

My kind of people.

 

DI (22:54)

Yeah, brilliant. So for women listening who might not feel that power yet and still pleasures and still feel the pressure that they have to toe the line, what’s a shift around redefining how they age appropriately? Because I mean, that’s a phrase we grew up with.

 

NATTY (23:19)

Yeah, I guess it would start by maybe asking yourself or even journaling on this question, like, what have I gained with age? Great question. Instead of counting their wrinkles, count your courage. Like, actually look back.

 

It’s a great practice because we’re survivors. Yep. We’re survivors. I mean, it’s just in our DNA.

 

DI (23:56)

And visibility is one of these huge topics that I think as the midlife woman approaches that certain age that they struggle with. I doubt that you struggle with visibility. It’s not one of my things that I struggle with, but I’m sure you’re talking to women every day who feel like they’re shrinking from view. How do you walk into a room

 

NATTY (24:21)

Yeah.

 

DI (24:25)

and really start to show up and change that narrative both literally and in your own mind.

 

NATTY (24:35)

I think when we think about visibility sometimes, or we think about owning a room, ⁓ we have a picture in our heads of a very masculine way of owning a room. owning a room in the way we’ve seen people own rooms before is this kind of power over idea, know, like, ⁓ yeah, kind of in an arrogant kind of way. And

 

Women, think, have a very special power, is that we can own a room just by our presence. We don’t need to jockey for position. It’s just being deeply present and walking into a space and feeling like I belong here, being grounded in your body, making eye contact.

 

speaking slowly, not trying to prove yourself, right? Letting your authenticity shine, your quirks, your humor, your wisdom, your truth. And there are some small shifts that women can make before walking into a room, taking a really deep breath, standing up straight.

 

rolling your shoulders back, you know, lifting your chest a little bit. And, you know, instead of thinking to yourself, I hope they like me. One question that I ask myself is, do I even like them?

 

DI (26:20)

Yeah, that’s gonna say flip the narrative. And the latter opens you up. The former shrinks you down physically.

 

NATTY (26:29)

Yeah, it does that the latter is curiosity, right? It’s like huh and thinking about like who in that room would I like to connect with? Mm-hmm instead of thinking they’re walking into a room of 30 people Who am I curious about? Yeah, and connect with that one human being

 

DI (26:46)

Yeah.

 

When did you walk into a room and really feel that sense of presence and that sense of groundedness? How old were you?

 

NATTY (27:01)

When I felt presence and groundedness, hmm. I think I rea- to be honest, I ha- I felt that way my whole life probably until I got into a boardroom.

 

And when I got into a boardroom, I thought to myself, I’m not smart enough to be here.

 

And I don’t know enough. I don’t know enough about financials. I can’t add anything to this conversation. And it’s actually regretfully ended up leaving that position ⁓ because of that. I think I mean, I told my son. Yeah. It’s man, do I regret that. But I just.

 

I do. mean, and that was probably, you know, 12 years ago. I think I was overwhelmed. had small kids. I told myself I couldn’t ⁓ handle the time commitment, but really it was me feeling like I didn’t belong.

 

You were invited there for a reason.

 

People want you there because of who you are and what you bring to the table. And we are so conditioned to believe that our worth is tied up with how many degrees we have or ⁓ what’s on your resume. But really, our power comes from how we think outside the box, how we connect with other human beings.

 

And in retrospect, I’m really great at those two things. And that’s probably why I was invited into the room.

 

DI (28:47)

Yeah, you missed the cue. Yeah. So I’m going to, I typically do a one bold question and answer to close, but Natty, I’m going to change it up a little bit with you because I think this is kind of your jam. So if we could do a couple of rapid fire responses, I would love your thoughts on three questions.

 

NATTY (28:50)

I miss the cube.

 

Okay, okay, let’s do it.

 

DI (29:17)

So what one rule midlife women should break immediately?

 

NATTY (29:22)

Stop apologizing for wanting more.

 

DI (29:26)

Love it. What brings you pleasure right now?

 

NATTY (29:31)

Dancing in my kitchen with my husband.

 

DI (29:35)

And if you could finish this sentence, the most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is…

 

NATTY (29:43)

Trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.

 

DI (29:56)

And there you have it. Natty, fantastic and you’re absolutely right, this village of women out there promoting midlife women, there’s plenty on my side of the globe and there’s plenty on your side of the globe. And we’ve got to get out there and shout from the rooftops because

 

We’ve got to change that narrative of the misconception of what midlife looks like. It’s a starting point, it’s not a finishing point.

 

NATTY (30:27)

Mmm, it is. It’s a launch pad. It’s a launch pad.

 

DI (30:32)

Absolutely. And I mean, you would have seen it where you are. I mean, it’s why there are so many 50 plus year old female entrepreneurs just burgeoning because we’re sick of following the rules. We finally understand what we’ve got to offer and we’ve got the confidence, the wisdom and the lived experience to get out there and do it.

 

NATTY (30:55)

We do, we do. Amen.

 

DI (30:59)

Amen. Brilliant. Nadi, an absolute delight to have you on the Power of Women podcast. It’s taken us a couple of goes to get there, but we finally have.

 

NATTY (31:11)

Thank

 

you for your patience.

 

DI (31:15)

⁓ you’re welcome. And I put it to anybody listening to today’s episode of ask yourself what is bringing you pleasure. Until next time.

 

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Baring All: My Alopecia Story — Losing My Hair But Not My Identity

Baring All: My Alopecia Story — Losing My Hair But Not My Identity

by | Sep 16, 2025 | Female Empowerment, Health & Wellbeing, Recovery, Transformational Change, Women's Health

What happens when the very thing you’ve always been known for, your appearance, suddenly changes?

In this solo episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, I share my raw and deeply personal journey with Alopecia totalis. When all my hair fell out, leaving me bald as a badger, as the saying goes.

What began as an identity-shattering experience of losing all my hair became one of the most defining lessons in resilience I’ve ever lived through. From brutal medical treatments and moments of despair, to unexpected acts of kindness and the courage to speak out, this chapter of my life reshaped not only who I am but also how I show up in the world.

This story starts in 1999, when out of the blue, I developed Alopecia totalis. For someone who had always been known for her long blonde hair, the slow, torturous process of watching it fall out strand by strand was devastating.

Western medicine offered little compassion and even fewer solutions. I endured thousands of cortisone injections, harsh treatments, and blunt words from specialists who saw me as a case rather than a person. None of this was done with any level of compassion or support. It was the most clinical, gut-wrenching experience.

Eventually, alternative therapies, Chinese herbal medicine, and a long journey of healing led to my hair regrowth.

However, this story isn’t just about alopecia. It’s about reclaiming power, resilience, and the courage to speak out. Lessons I now carry into every episode of the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

In this episode, we explore:

➜ The emotional impact of Alopecia totalis and the identity shift it forced.

➜ Why Western medicine wasn’t the answer for me, and the path toward alternative therapies.

➜ The lowest moment of my journey — and how I pulled myself back.

➜ Building a wig business to create solutions for myself and others.

➜ The random act of kindness that still stays with me.

➜ Lessons in resilience, self-worth, and speaking out to support others.

 

This is some of what I said:

“I am far more than how I look. I have the resilience to pull myself back from the darkest moment of my life.”

“If you have the courage to speak out about adversity to help others, that is something I cannot stress enough as being a fabulous thing to do.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the FULL TRANSCRIPT of this conversation here: 👉

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Di Gillett (00:08)

Hey, I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and experience of women from all walks of life. And today, since I launched the podcast some 18 months ago, I have put all my energy into sharing the stories of some truly incredible and amazing women.

 

But what I’ve realised is that I actually have a few powerful stories and lessons of my own to share that hopefully will inspire and support others. And I also want to give a shout out to Tori Archbold and thank her for the time we’ve spent together which has afforded me a bigger picture view of what’s next for Power of Women.

 

So the story I want to open up with today is one that I actually shared on all of my social platforms over the last couple of weeks. And that is when in 1999, out of the blue, I developed Alopecia totalis. Now I was defined by my looks. Sadly, I…

 

openly admit that. I had long blonde hair, lots of people would comment on it and give me positive feedback. It was my one crowning aspect of my character that I prided myself on. So what happened in 1999 and it was horrendous and it was this slow torturous experience that started

 

six months earlier where one day at the hairdressers they commented that I had a little bit of hair missing above my ears on both sides of my head. And that slowly became this increasing pattern of baldness that went from my ears to the top of my head over a period of six months. And it was identical

 

in the way it fell out on both sides of my head. So it was following this very distinct pattern. Getting in the shower each morning and looking down on the shower floor and seeing loads and loads of my prized blonde hair on the shower floor was absolutely gutting. And I can remember going to a particular

 

dermatologist in the CBD where I was living at the time, my first question was, am I going to lose all my hair? And he very bluntly, without any sugar coating, said, probably. And then proceeded in that particular visit to his clinic to inject up to 2,000 cortisone needles into my rapidly balding head.

 

was agonizing and I can remember saying to him I can hear the needles actually piercing the skin. You could hear that pop where that syringe was actually breaking through the surface of the skin and I pointed that out to this practitioner and he said I’m sorry the needles probably got blunt where we’ve hit the scalp.

 

None of this was done with any level of compassion or support. It was the most clinical gut-wrenching experience. And I had walked out of my office to come to this appointment. And I remember jumping on a tram to take the ride back to the office and my head was spinning. I’d just been told all of my hair was going to fall out. I’d just had this agonizing treatment that was delivered in the most brutal manner.

 

And the messaging from this specialist was beyond words. So then various journeys, I started to think, what am I going to do? And I kept down the Western medicine path, which saw me land at the clinic, another clinic in my hometown of probably one of Australia’s preeminent dermatologists. And that was a really short-lived relationship. And it was

 

One that ended in a manner which is not uncommon with me if I find something doesn’t fit with my beliefs or my ideas or my values, I speak out and I speak out in a direct and blunt manner. So I started to visit this second specialist who was also a dermatologist and in the world of hair loss there’s a whole lot of other sub-specialists that branch off, trichologists and all sorts of things.

 

and that had been an unsuccessful journey. So I’m at the rooms of this second dermatologist and his process was similar to the first. Inject you with cortisone and then he would apply this acidic tincture to my nail balding scalp and put you under this heat lamp for an intense period in what was for all intents and purposes a celerium.

 

And after the third session with this preeminent dermatologist, I said to him, I think your whole process is deeply flawed. And here’s my reasons why. You’re injecting me with cortisone, and cortisone is going to cause pits in my bones and irreparable damage. You’re putting this acidic tincture on my head and then putting me under a heat lamp, which there is no doubt over time is going to give me skin cancer.

 

So I’m beginning to get suspicious about, know, this is a lifelong engagement until I have no life left with these specialists because one cure causes something else. And his delivery of that was, well, if you don’t believe what I’m doing, don’t bother coming back. I won’t say on this podcast quite what my direct response with it because it is packed full of expletives, but suffice to say you could not have

 

me to walk back through his doors for another appointment ever again. So then I thought I don’t know what I’m going to do. By this stage I am nearly bald. Nearly bald. I’m starting to wear bandanas. I’m starting to explore what to do with wigs. And at the same time I thought I need to start to look beyond Australia for a cure because I couldn’t find anything here.

 

And I started to do some research and look at international marketplaces. It seemed at the time that Princess Caroline of Monaco was tackling a similar issue that she wasn’t overly public about, but I’d found a few threads. And keep in mind in 1999, the internet certainly wasn’t the resource tool that it is today and chat GPT did not exist.

 

So I kept looking at alternative medicine. My biggest problem with Western medicine was that the whole approach to treating this hair loss, which had been termed alopecia totalis, because I was now losing my eyelashes, my eyebrows, all of the hair on my body, which in some respects was a great thing, in other respects was just a nightmare, was that the Western medicine approach to this was to treat

 

the condition on the surface to treat the after the event where clearly something in my system or in my life or in my surroundings had actually caused this and Western medicine had no interest in that. So the journey went on and I went to naturopaths and all sorts of things and I had some horrendous experiences along the way.

 

And some of those were I was now close to bald with just a small amount of hair at the top of my head, which if I wore a bandana, allowed me to have sort of some thinning strands down the side of my bandana, which kind of didn’t necessarily announce to the world that I was completely bald. So with my corporate suits going into a CBD office every day,

 

I integrated a bandana into part of my look. The problem with doing that though was in going and pitching for business and I was in the recruitment and search space was that when you’re trying to pitch for business with clients that might be a particular campaign that was going to last for months and months and months, you could see it all over the client’s face that they had some reticence around engaging you.

 

because they actually didn’t know whether you were going to be around for that many months because the assumption of hair loss was immediately cancer. So I realised there and then that I had to actually share what I was going through openly, otherwise the commercial fallout of that was going to impact my financial future. And whilst I was in a relationship at the time,

 

There was no financial support from that relationship and long story short, that relationship which was loaded with coercive control was probably one of the many causal factors that actually kicked off this alopecia totalis which falls into the autoimmune family. I had to show up my financial future and I can remember some

 

really awful experiences. went to a client meeting one side of town on a particular windy day with my bandana on and I decided to walk back to the office which was probably, I don’t know, about five city blocks across town. Windy day, roaring north wind and halfway back heading back for another meeting at my office, my bandana flew off.

 

And here I am stuck in the middle of the city in a bright red suit which in its own right stood out. My bandana had blown off and I am standing there with a few bloody strands of hair blowing in the wind and I was absolutely gutted. And I remember walking past a particular shop in the city which was the tie rack which specialised in men’s ties and

 

and all sorts of scarves. And the woman, when I was walking past the front of the store, saw me and beckoned me to come in. And she had realized what was happening. And she offered me a bandana. And she tied it on my head, wouldn’t let me pay for it, and set me on my way back to my office. And that

 

a bit like an episode that I’m also releasing this week with Hannah Asafiri was my own personal experience of a random act of kindness that has stuck with me for years. So my balding journey is continuing and I am now down to literally a 20 cent piece circle of hair left on the top of my head.

 

which at this stage is still long. hadn’t brought myself to be able to do anything with it other than to hang on to it for dear life. And I can remember making the decision to shave that bit off with my then partner’s home shaver because he had a number one blade. And whilst it was one single sweep of the shaver to take it off, it was the…

 

most challenging thing to do and probably took me 20 minutes to actually take that one sweep and shave it off. Another thing that had happened before I had done that, the company that I was with required us all to go to Sydney for a promotional tour where my business was partnering with the global brand Monster.

 

as a promotional campaign and I remember it required us to walk around Sydney CBD literally wearing sandwich boards promoting the launch of Monster. It was September and it was blowing a gale in Sydney and I now have it embedded in my brain that September is the windiest month of the year in Australia and it was similar to that experience of losing my bandana.

 

between meetings previously where walking around the city literally with people looking at you because you’re walking around with this sandwich board on as a walking billboard, wearing a bandana, looking like I was on my last legs, it was probably one of the most horrendous tasks at that point in time to be asked to do.

 

And we also had a black tie event with the company on the final evening of our billboard walking. And I backed out of that because I just couldn’t work out how to front up to this black tie event and make a bandana work and make it work in terms of presenting me as a perfectionist as I wanted to present. So we come back to Melbourne after that Sydney visit and two days after

 

I’m on my way to the office. My then partner was driving me to work that morning. And I said to him, I can’t go in. I’m going to ring them and tell them I just can’t go in. And so I made a phone call into the office and spoke to my then line manager who said to me, why aren’t you coping? The bluntness of his reaction of aren’t I coping with losing my hair, going bald, can’t find a cure.

 

just gutted me. And I went back home. My then partner went off to work and I was home alone and I had to say I hit probably the darkest moment of my life. And I actually seriously contemplated not staying around. I seriously contemplated my own demise. And I sat with that for a few hours.

 

And in sitting with that for a few hours and writing down on it, not in a journal at that point in time, but on a piece of paper, I did two columns. What I couldn’t cope with and another column, what could I change? I couldn’t cope with how I looked. I couldn’t cope with how I felt. And I couldn’t cope with the fact that I couldn’t find a cure. And I also couldn’t cope

 

with the fact that I couldn’t find any wigs that fitted me and that was a big part of not being able to control how I looked. On the right hand side of what I could control, I could control speaking out about what I was feeling rather than hiding it. I could, if I put my skills and my network to the test,

 

solve or start to work on a solution for wigs, if I actually started to develop my own wigs that would fit my particularly small head, which was the issue with wigs in the marketplace at that time. And as such, I could then control how I face the world. So the right-hand column won out and

 

I set about starting a small wig business, not really from a commercial venture, more from my own personal use. Albeit I sold and gave away a few to other people that I started to come into contact with through what was an alopecia network within my home state. I also started to advocate for people, particularly children struggling with alopecia because I found that I had a voice

 

that I could speak out about it and talk publicly rather than hiding behind what was happening to me. And I found strength in that and I could share that strength with kids because kids going through an alopecia journey, be it partial or total baldness, in the schoolyard found themselves in a very difficult place. And the schoolyard, as we know, is somewhere where bullying is rife.

 

And for somebody with any points of difference or something that made them look strange or look odd, made them a target for bullying. So I started to do some work there. The other thing I started to do was I thought I could do more than just talk about this. I could put pen to paper and start to write a book. And my working title for the book was Bulled as a Badger. And I

 

did garner the interest of two publishing houses. And I started that book, but I have to say regrettably, I never finished it. And maybe that’s something in my unfinished journey again. So I’m still exploring cures. I’m now completely bald. I can’t find a cure. And a friend, in fact, the wife of a friend of mine,

 

coercive controlling partner suggested that rather than look internationally and do all of this exploring that I was doing, she recommended a very alternative therapist who she put a lot of trust in that was in my hometown in Melbourne. So I made an appointment and drove down to this particular clinic.

 

And I can never forget walking in the door. was this very rudimentary clinic, in almost a semi-industrial part of Melbourne. And it had a pale blue facade. And the place was called Inerchi and the practitioner was Doug Davies. And in those days, my attire, my work attire was corporate suits and stiletto heels.

 

And I remember walking into the doors to this very alternative clinic where on the right was a counter and behind that counter was just jars and jars and jars of Chinese medicinal herbs. And on the left was the waiting room and everybody in the waiting room was sitting with their shoes off that they had put on this rack just inside the door. And those shoes were primarily Birkenstocks and all varieties of flat shoes. And the only pair of Louboutin

 

high heels on that rack were mine. And I hadn’t met Doug at this stage and he walked out to his next appointment, which was me, and he looked at the shoe rack and he looked around and saw me sitting there in a corporate suit and said, Diane, I said yes. And that started the beginning of an incredible relationship with Doug and a two to two and a half year journey of twists and turns that

 

resulted in me opening my eyes, embracing very alternative therapies and meditation and yoga and a journey with Chinese herbs and custom-made tinctures that over the course of two and a half years got the most amazing result of getting my hair back. Now it wasn’t a linear journey. There were fits and starts. It would start to grow back. It would fall out.

 

Heartbreaking. Get back on track again, start to grow, we change the medicines. And if anybody’s done Chinese herbal medicine, when somebody asks you to boil these Chinese herbs up into a tea, you know it makes the residents that you might be sharing with anybody else absolutely unlivable because the pungent smell of the tea is unforgettable. And it also takes time. So I’d said to Doug, look,

 

This whole process is adding more stress into my world when stress is part of my problem. And I need a different solution. I need you to grind these herbs down and turn them into capsules that I can swallow instead of boiling the teas. And he said to me, that’ll take more time. I said, I appreciate that. That I am prepared to acknowledge, but it is the only way I can integrate this ⁓

 

Process that I’m going through with you into my life without it becoming another part of the problem Which big ticket was probably stress from relationships stress from work stress from being a perfectionist Poor blood flow from having broken my back in a skiing accident many years prior All of these things were an amalgam of things that had my body stiffen up that the net result was Blood flow was compromised to my head

 

that ultimately led to the hair loss. Now whether in fact my hair loss was an autoimmune disorder, which I actually really question, and whether it was more these causal effects that had caused stress in my body to stiffen and in fact compromise blood flow, which I actually think was more to the point. Through that time, I referred many other

 

Women in particular who had suffered hair loss, some who had been bald for over 20 years, I referred them to Doug and they started their own amazing journeys of recovery. And one of the proudest moments was leading into Doug Davies finally retiring some, I think probably 10 years ago now, was when they reached out and asked me to write a testimonial for a book that was being written as part of his… ⁓

 

retirement exit and sitting down and putting a small testimonial to paper that was reflective of this journey was probably one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to put to paper because it had all of those emotions flooding back up and that was probably the first time that I had revisited that story for about 10 years. But I do want to say what this particular journey which

 

covered the period of 1999 to 2004 where I was just coming into, for the first time, having a full head of short hair when I met my husband George Danekian at a best friend’s wedding. And I remember going on a walk along the beach with George as one of our first dates. And it was the first time I had walked along the waterfront not afraid

 

of the wind either blowing off my bandana or my wig for the first time in four years. And I can’t tell you how impactful, it’s making me emotional talking about it, how impactful that was to actually take that walk along the beach without fear of being exposed literally. So that four year journey taught me that I am in fact

 

more than how I look because over that four-year journey I was headhunted twice for significant roles in the recruitment and search space. I also learned that I had the resilience to pull myself back from the darkest moment of my life and identify what I had to live for. And I also identified that I had the courage to speak out publicly

 

about what I was experiencing as a means of helping others and that was probably one of the most important learnings of all. One of my failures though out of this was I did say at the time when I’d started to get my hair back that I would never be defined by my hair ever again. Well for those who know what I look like today and it’s now 2025

 

You would have to say I probably never been more defined by my hair in any other point in time in my life than I am today because it is the first statement that probably people notice about me when I walk through the door. So that’s a failure. However, what I am never fazed by is the fact that at any day when my hairdo doesn’t work, I don’t call that a bad hair day because when you have had a hair day,

 

bad hair day that is actually losing your hair, that changes the benchmark for what a bad hair day is. So I don’t have any bad hair days. So if I can leave you with those three lessons about what I really felt were the most impactful, I am more than I look. I am far more than what I look like. That I have the resilience to pull myself back from my darkest moments.

 

and I believe you do too, and that if you have the courage to speak out about adversity and things that you’ve experienced in your life to help others, to really help others get back on their journey to recovery, whatever that journey might be, that is something I cannot stress enough as being a fabulous thing to do. So.

 

I am going to do more episodes at the Power of Women that are solo episodes because I think I do have some stories to share, not all out of adversity, but stories to share that hopefully might inspire others in the same way as some of the incredible stories that I am privileged to share with you through the podcast interviews with the amazing women that I’m bringing to the table and giving a platform through the Power of Women podcast.

 

I’m going to do the same with just a few more stories like this where I speak to you one on one. I hope it resonated. I hope it’s helpful. Until next time.

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She’s a Champion of Women and a True Visionary For Societal Change

She’s a Champion of Women and a True Visionary For Societal Change

by | Sep 15, 2025 | Champion, Change Makers, Exemplar, Female Empowerment, Female Power

She is Hana Assafiri.

What does it mean to turn adversity into purpose? In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, I sit down with Hana Assafiri OAM — activist, entrepreneur, and founder of the Moroccan Soup Bar. She is a relentless champion of women and a true visionary advocating for societal change. And her life story is a testament to resilience, defiance, and the audacity to seek freedom.

Born to Lebanese and Moroccan parents, Hana’s upbringing stretched between Australia and Lebanon. At just 15, she was forced into an arranged marriage, confronting both personal violence and systemic failures. Her story is not one of victimhood but of refusing to be defined by it.

Hana reveals how the small kindnesses of strangers, a shop assistant who treated her with dignity, a teacher who cared, shaped her path forward. Those acts of humanity became the seeds of her own mission: to create spaces of safety, dignity, and empowerment for women.

The Moroccan Soup Bar, founded in 1998, is one of those spaces. What began as a kitchen staffed by women seeking refuge has evolved into a model of community, employment, and healing.

Her recently published memoir, The Audacity to Be Free, expands on these themes, challenging us to rethink freedom, gender roles, and the role men must play as allies in addressing violence. Hana is unflinching: “The solution must be driven by women, supported by men.”

 

In this episode, we explore:

➜ The meaning of life and freedom beyond survival

➜ Cultural expectations, arranged marriage, and systemic failures

➜ Acts of kindness that can change the course of a life

 

As Hana explains:

“Life doesn’t come with a trigger warning.”

“Women don’t need pity and charity. What they need is pathways and opportunities.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

HANA (00:00)

Hi, Hannah Asafiri. What am I defining in the three or four rapid fire points? The meaning for life, I think, maybe I’ll start there, for me is whatever setting in whatever capacity that you leave those circumstances in a somewhat better predicament than when you found them. And that is, I guess, my foundational value for life, whether I find myself

 

⁓ one-on-one with individuals in social settings, advocating and or speaking to politicians, parliamentarians or the king or queen. That ultimately what drives me and what gives my life meaning is that. And sadly, we’re living in a world where ⁓ those tensions are much more real and require in us to take greater risks and responsibilities in preserving the very values.

 

that can ensure a better kind of fairer world. ⁓ And as women, think, which is the other layer, ⁓ being mindful of the profound inequality and the spaces that women have to navigate, also with it comes the opportunity for us to rethink how ⁓ better outcomes are possible through women’s contribution. So in a sense, the hope

 

for me ⁓ is what defines me and that is that the world can be better, kinder, fairer, more humane.

 

DI (01:37)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, the resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. But today we’re going to ask somewhat a deeper question. What does it mean to be free? And that is something that so many of us literally take for granted. Or is it something more

 

that we need to explore around that? Is it the power to build a sanctuary for others, even if you had to burn your own world down to escape? This is a story of a woman who was told to be silent, to make herself small and to fit into a world that had no room for her spirit. It’s the story of Hannah Asafiri. In Melbourne, Australia, that name is spoken with a reverence usually

 

save for community heroes and culinary legends. But before she was a celebrated activist and a radical entrepreneur, she was a girl trapped in a cage not of her own making. Today’s guest knows exactly what it takes to find freedom, not just for herself but for countless others. Hannah Asafiri, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

HANA (02:59)

Dear Lord, thank you, Di, and thank you for that amazing introduction. Gosh, I think I can leave now and that kind of sums it up. I’ll just not disappoint going further, but yes.

 

DI (03:11)

Well, I think the introduction deserves a bit of a deep dive because there’s one hell of a story behind that. So, but before we begin, could I just want to say when we spoke off air and I said to you, do we need to do a trigger warning about anything that we are going to talk about today? I’m going to pause there because your response, I think, says it all. Because You said to me,

 

life doesn’t come with a trigger warning.

 

HANA (03:44)

And it doesn’t. And sadly, for many in the main, women and girls and children, and this is commonplace, that these conversations, ⁓ it is really sad. They don’t come with trigger warnings. and yet they are so pervasive. They’re a common experience for many of us. That said, it is important, I think, for people to know that there’s support, there’s help, that these are conversations that

 

⁓ don’t and are not afforded the appropriate spaces to talk about them, that we keep them hidden and we keep the responsibility and the onus on those who endure violence and abuse and trauma and leave them to their own devices or therapy or whatever it is. But as a society, we don’t talk about them effectively. And if and when we do, we

 

cotton wool them with trigger warnings and if you want to leave, leave the room. Well, life isn’t like that sadly. And that way of discussing these issues I don’t think is making inroads into changing attitudes and the very drivers of these attitudes. We need to be able to talk about them matter of fact. We need to be able to talk about them honestly and shift the shame, isolation, humiliation,

 

that those who endure ⁓ feel and place it where it belongs and it is with those who perpetrate these acts. ⁓ so, yes, I come back to, of course, life doesn’t give you trigger warnings, but also let’s ⁓ reimagine how we as those of us who’ve lived life ⁓ can respond and have this conversation and define how we talk about it.

 

DI (05:19)

mmm

 

Yeah, thank you. Could we start with your story and delve into some of that today, Hannah? What was it like growing up where tradition and culture often overshadowed your spirit?

 

HANA (05:54)

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s tradition and culture. think often times spirited children find themselves restricted by the conventions and the environments that they find themselves in.

 

DI (06:12)

she’s got nothing to do with that. That could be any of us.

 

HANA (06:14)

That’s right. ⁓ I think, you know, importantly, especially if you’re a young girl and then growing up to be a woman in a society that’s got clearly defined roles and, you know, you’ve got your predictable pathway to how, what you should aspire to and ⁓ marriage and children and all of that sort of stuff. And I think anything that exists outside of that is quickly tamed.

 

and dissuaded, we’re often dissuaded from, you know, the hair being camped, just having an honest expression of who you are. ⁓ And yes, with that, obviously different cultures have their own traditions and rituals that further contain, absolutely. So for me, growing up in a culture,

 

DI (06:50)

I’m out of here Hannah.

 

HANA (07:09)

initially in Australia, but then we moved, my mother’s Lebanese, my father’s Moroccan, we then moved to Lebanon for a time and it was during wars and ⁓ really high-stakes settings, but the contrast between Australia and Lebanon in the gendered roles and the expectations of women and girls was for me really confronting. ⁓

 

necessarily restricting ⁓ more the hypocrisy of the expectations. it? ⁓ Probably neither. think I was curious about who makes the rules about these. It was absurd. I think more than, there was an absurdity about men and boys moving in public spaces only.

 

DI (07:43)

confusing.

 

or confronting.

 

HANA (08:03)

and women being relegated to the domesticity of kitchens and houses and salons and whatever. And whilst in and of itself maybe to a child that would have been okay, but where it wasn’t okay is I was then expected to move in men and boys spaces to go and bring the food from the grocery store, get the bread and yet denied everything that came with it and all the freedoms that came with it. And I think that

 

then became my training ground for really pushing back a little bit and really formulating my identity around questioning why things the way they are, who makes these rules, because they were absurd. just were nonsensical. So it was more that.

 

DI (08:52)

Yet you found yourself, as I understand it, in an arranged marriage despite the fact that you had this strong sense of what was fair for the guys and not fair for the girls.

 

HANA (09:06)

So yes, arranged marriages and I think this is where I guess when, so we moved from Lebanon back to Australia and ⁓ in that space ⁓ my mother did not integrate and certainly back then, I’m talking 40 years ago, 50 years ago even, the integration of communities and cultures was not as sophisticated as it is now and still now it’s quite inadequate.

 

But back then, it was worse. So mum lived inside the four walls of the home and became more and more depressed and more and more isolated, more and more, and her sense of marginalization and understanding of the world was limited to the four walls. And from that space, I go back to she did her best in her care.

 

⁓ Sadly, part of ⁓ her way of extending care ⁓ was to go back to what she knew, and that is to organise and arrange a marriage for her children. But again, later we can talk about that if or if not. ⁓ The conditions around which I was married were ⁓ very difficult. They were a consequence of sexual abuse.

 

And the only way in her isolation, my mother knew how to deal with the reputational damage, what that would mean for my other siblings in young girls being marriageable or otherwise. So like many cultures and traditions, sweeping under the carpet, getting rid of the problem, marry her off. And I think whilst

 

Now I understand and certainly forgive. It wasn’t okay for the little girl that was me and nor is it okay for many others. I also think where these circumstances were allowed to happen, I was married at 15 in Australia.

 

And Australia allowed it at the time, again, because we find ourselves wanting to be culturally sensitive, wanting to ⁓ embrace different cultures. But when that approach lacks a gendered understanding, we then default to going to the men, hey, what are your issues? How do you, what is it that you need to feel that you belong in Australia? And all these…

 

DI (11:38)

Hmm

 

become complicit as a country.

 

HANA (11:53)

And the people that are defining those cultures, of course they’re going to define them from their perspective and from their privileges. So as men who have been the ones that are consulted over the years, they have said, well, you know, our culture requires that we are allowed to marry our children young, provided there’s guardian consent, et cetera, et cetera.

 

Governments, whilst well-meaning, and societies, whilst their endeavor is to ⁓ be inclusive, I think those issues, unless they’re informed by the intersectional experience of women, and unless women contribute to what defines those cultures, then in the end they land on the bodies, sadly, of women and children who

 

deal with the impact and consequences of the layered, for lack of a better word, misogyny, the layered ⁓ societal issues that we have to navigate. And I think for me, I try to understand many years later my arranged marriage within that context, instead of just blaming my mother or the government for allowing it, or the Imam for marrying us, or whatever it is. ⁓

 

And I think it’s actually freeing when we can understand our place in the world and begin to agitate for change so that others don’t have to endure.

 

DI (13:31)

What happened between the relationship between you and your mother early on? it, was that a point of friction?

 

HANA (13:39)

Absolutely not. And you know, sadly, I loved my mother dearly and dearly. We’d never had a fight our entire life. And the level of empathy was probably too close even. ⁓ And we as children, probably like many children of migrants, we become the adults. We become the doctors, the interpreters, the translators.

 

DI (14:04)

All the things that care

 

HANA (14:05)

That’s

 

right. And because especially that they can’t move freely in society, we then take on that role. And in that role, you’re not allowed to be a kid. In fact, you can’t be a kid. with mum, interestingly, she now passed. But I’ve always had this thing that, you know, she did her best, she loved us, she, in her own understanding of the world.

 

and simultaneously holding the experience that it wasn’t good enough, that ⁓ as a young girl who was hurt and harmed by some of those decisions, and then how do we, if we arrive at that place, how do we forgive?

 

DI (14:52)

You’d built a strength of character though as a young girl in Lebanon being frustrated for want of any other word of seeing what was the gender difference of what the boys could do versus what you could do. How did you then bring that strength of character and perhaps view of injustice into an arranged marriage and actually

 

Were you again diminished or did you find your voice in the marriage early?

 

HANA (15:27)

Well, sadly, the marriage was profoundly violent from the very outset, in fact, from the wedding night. And I did write about it and was mindful in writing about it also not to associate arranged marriages with violent marriages. I think there is a distinct difference. Some arranged marriages can be good.

 

And some, obviously, marriages that aren’t arranged are also violent. So I don’t think the issue is arranged marriages per se. And yet this guy, I mean, there was absolutely nothing in common. We had no compatibility. was somebody who, you know, we started by saying, I ask why, why is the world the way it is? Why isn’t it better?

 

and his mode of, know, was about it’s my way or the highway. And I was never, for many reasons, I was never going to be the person that just thought, well, that’s okay, it’s your way. And I was young and I was 15, he was years older than me. So communication was just not at all. ⁓ And his mode of…

 

communicating and relating was extraordinarily violent at every turn.

 

DI (16:58)

And you would have had any life skills to deal with that at that age?

 

HANA (17:01)

None. And on top of it, you know, we’re Muslim, raised Muslim, and I think I was one of the first Muslim young women in Australia who was really pushing back and seeking a divorce. In fact, I called my mum the night of my wedding after the initial act of slap across the face and said, get me out of here. What is this? no, no, no, no, we can’t. And what will people say in that hole?

 

And you know, you then become exposed to culture again, this culture that’s defined by somebody obscure that says, you must remain, you must endure, you must persevere, you must not provoke, and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, I left him four or five times and …

 

In that and during that time and I think what’s been really good for me and What’s given me endurance, defiance, resistance, resilience, whatever it is, is the kind act of strangers, people you never expected. Like the woman at Sussan who I would come in every day once he would leave and go to work and

 

I would jump out the window, literally, I was young and agile, could jump out the window and headlock the doors and I’d go, yeah right, ⁓ and go up to the local Sussan store and every day would imagine a world and a possibility that wasn’t the horror that I was living. ⁓ And like most people I think who live through violence and trauma, we dissociate.

 

For me, dissociation was also a positive thing because it allowed me to imagine a world ⁓ that was possible. and in that world I kind of really cultivated an alternative to the horror. ⁓ And the random strangers who existed in that world, the woman at Sussan who every day knew I would come in, jump out the window, come in. ⁓

 

And she would know I would never buy something. I never had the money, never had the means. He never gave me any and didn’t work and, you know, I children. And she would say, hello, can I help you? Every day as though I was someone new. I didn’t annoy her, even though I said, can I try this on, can I try that on? And began to wear jeans that I wasn’t allowed to wear and tried all this stuff on every day. And she, you know, did not tire from.

 

going, hello, can I help you? And I think to women like that and individuals like that, you have no idea about the impact you will have on the trajectory of somebody’s life. Act of kindness, not from people that are expected to be kind, but from random, whether it’s your teacher who goes over and above, whether it’s a stranger who says, you okay?

 

DI (19:58)

Through an act of kindness.

 

HANA (20:12)

whether it’s, And they’re the ones that I think are profoundly important in and through the experience of those of us that have at times been isolated and been violent. Absolutely, an important one.

 

DI (20:24)

It’s a memory that you hold. Yeah.

 

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Well, coming up, we’re going to talk about more about how Hannah became a beacon of empowerment and social change.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So Hannah, leaving the marriage wasn’t easy, but what it did expose for you was that the system was really failing women. What did you find?

 

HANA (21:03)

Look, absolutely, and I think, I mean, I wish there were other alternatives for me at the time, and I look back at some of those experiences, and they are heartbreaking, that there aren’t any real and meaningful options for women to be safe and free of violence and trauma. ⁓

 

in leaving whilst it was very difficult and multi-layered, you know, from the control of violence within the home to then the societal control that says you can’t leave, you are defined by being a divorcee or in our culture you can’t, or in our faith it is not a possible option and all those things. And then the legal system who deems you fit or unfit.

 

to care for your children without recognising the life that you are enduring and experiencing through and with a violent partner without understanding the consequences of that. You are deemed based on having left a certain way or then you are defined and judged by those events. So I think the…

 

At every level, individually, at a societal level, at a cultural level, at a legal institutional level, women have failed repeatedly. And I think it’s understandable why women stay and why the revolving door scenario women return. With that said, it’s then no surprise. I then went on to work in women’s services and for 13 years my life was

 

and continues to be, but in that iteration committed to law reform, to changing some of the interventions, at least at a social level, to shifting and challenging some of the attitudes that enabled and allowed violence to endure. So I did everything from working in direct service, picking up the phone, speaking to a woman in crisis, to then

 

looking at effective models and responses to women who are escaping violence and abuse, to even sitting on government, national, state level on advisory boards talking about this issue. And thankfully, and still inadequately, but certainly thankfully, law reform and the recognition that this isn’t just a domestic.

 

At least those conversations have changed. We’ve still got a very long way to go. But we’re certainly not where we once were.

 

DI (23:54)

Did your mother get to live to see you do this work? ⁓

 

HANA (23:58)

Yes,

 

yes, yes, yes. My mother got to live not only to see me do this work and often, you know, working with other younger Muslim women in similar predicaments at times and really challenging and rewriting traditions and customs ⁓ and slowly also watching the transition and change of some of my mother’s attitudes over the years. And my father.

 

And then obviously opening the Moroccan soup bar and ⁓

 

DI (24:34)

come to that because I want to talk about that.

 

HANA (24:37)

In

 

the domestic violence sector and responses, guess for me, the lens and the experience has always been about those on the margins and those ⁓ who the system fails and continues to let down. And I think not through ⁓ ill intent at all, yet the system continued to let down. ⁓

 

because it’s established in a way that is a band aid to the problem. is not.

 

DI (25:08)

It’s not addressing the cause. ⁓

 

HANA (25:11)

And I think after 13 years, there was one incident where a woman phoned in with two children and we’d exhausted every option. And back then there’s only transitional housing and crisis housing and hotels and there was nothing available. And she said, I’m out on the street. I have two children. I need somewhere to go. And I couldn’t find anywhere. And we had nothing available to her. And I was told that I’m supposed to say.

 

there’s nothing available. Now for me that was personal. It was a profoundly personal, relatable story. ⁓ And that was the defining moment for where and how the Moroccan Super was established.

 

DI (25:54)

Ah. Well, we had on the podcast a few weeks ago the CEO of the Why Do We CA Australia, Michelle Phillips. Yes. And talking specifically about homelessness for women and that the cohort now that super surpassed the over 50s is now the 25 to 38 year olds through largely domestic violence.

 

And whilst we’re yet to know if anything will come of it, ⁓ from that podcast I had somebody reach out through the website only the other day asking could we connect them with the YWCA because they want to invest in women’s housing. hopefully that becomes a call to action and something that

 

HANA (26:47)

And I mean, just some basic re-imaginings. ⁓ Because at the moment, for all the measurable indicators, the indicators is that gender-based violence is going the wrong way.

 

DI (27:05)

Yeah, well we can see it in the statistics every day in the news. It’s tragic.

 

HANA (27:10)

And a lot of people say, yeah, it’s because women report more. No, that’s not true because the measurable indicators are sadly the brutal end to domestic violence, which is murder. Those numbers are going up and they’re not a perception. So if these are the indicators, then there’s something amiss in the way we are responding to the issue.

 

DI (27:38)

and to your point, band-aiding it rather than addressing it at the root cause.

 

HANA (27:42)

And I simply say some basic things and when we talk about the Moroccan Soup Bar, for 25 years we have unwittingly and organically evolved the model that women don’t return at all. Not one woman has gone back to a violent partner in 25 years at the Moroccan Soup Bar. Not because there’s something magic about us, not because we’re amazing, but because I think our response is needs driven.

 

DI (28:12)

Yep.

 

HANA (28:12)

⁓ It organically evolved around the enduring needs of women, not just the crisis itself, but the ongoing needs like housing, upskilling women.

 

DI (28:24)

So tell us, where did the soup bar start, the Moroccan soup bar? It is your baby.

 

HANA (28:27)

So,

 

that day that I had this woman who said, you know, I need somewhere to go and there was nowhere for her to go and to me I found that extraordinarily difficult to accept. There’s always an option and there should be. If there isn’t, there should be. ⁓ I would have taken her home, you know.

 

But obviously worker safety and wellbeing and you’re not allowed to and you have boundary issues if you did and whatever. There’s always a solution. has to be a solution. Anyway, so driving home in that state, there was a sign on the side of the road saying, Felice of a shopfront on St. George’s Road. I pulled over and phoned the agent and he happened to be in the area and showed me through this

 

space. ⁓ It was carpeted. It was absolutely nothing and it was a derelict kind of strip. There was no other retail. So it was a thoroughfare St. George’s Road. And there and then I found myself haggling and brokering a lease deal, not knowing what it would be other than it would be a space that is safe, run by women for women. ⁓

 

DI (29:50)

because there had to be a solution.

 

HANA (29:52)

Absolutely. And this is, I guess, probably an important aspect of who I am and how I’ve navigated my life. I think women’s intuition is undervalued, in fact, often judged. And our intuition, ⁓

 

DI (30:09)

could not agree more.

 

HANA (30:17)

you know, is being made to, ⁓ put that aside. It is about reason, it’s about a plan, it’s about ⁓ everything with an end game. so we prioritise reason and everything that is quantifiable over intuition. And for me, what’s held my entire life in good stead and what’s never harmed me.

 

DI (30:29)

not always

 

HANA (30:43)

society harms me, and individuals and cultures, ⁓ but your own intuition, if you allow it and get in touch with it as a barometer, will never put you in harm’s way. And I think women’s intuition, reinvesting in it and re-trusting it as women is probably one of the best things we can do for ourselves. ⁓ Now, the difference is, sadly, intuition doesn’t have a plan. It just says,

 

take that step. We don’t know what will happen, but trust and take that step. And from that step, wherever you are, intuitively, you will know where the next step is. And your life will organically and authentically unfold. The issue is you can’t then take that to a bank and say, fund this intuition, because I want to open up a place and I know it’ll work. And I did, in fact, go to the bank and they went, yeah, no.

 

DI (31:44)

Talked to nearly any trailblazer or entrepreneur, intuition will have been what drove them.

 

HANA (31:51)

Yes. ⁓ And I think intuition should be part of the story. I’m not saying it’s the only story, but certainly for me, in every major life-changing and defining moment, it has been intuitive. ⁓ You know, I believe in theories, energies, vibes, ⁓ as much as everything else that is tangible. ⁓

 

DI (32:18)

But you know how to tap into it. Not everybody does.

 

HANA (32:21)

I’ve had to. It is that space that’s kept me safe. ⁓

 

DI (32:27)

It’s been your imagination that would have emotionally kept you safe years ago.

 

HANA (32:33)

And I’ve learned, and in that sense, I’ve been really, really lucky that, you know, that the circumstances didn’t define me, but that I’ve found a way to navigate through, kind of just being in yourself and looking inward.

 

DI (32:49)

So how is the Moroccan Soup Kitchen supporting women and fulfilling the dream that you identified through intuition that day?

 

HANA (32:58)

Yes, so what I thought is it would be a place for women to be safe. And then the next layer of that is society often and certainly in our cultures, women are conditioned in kitchens often. ⁓ And they are rarely rewarded, remunerated or supported or valued for that work. It’s often work that’s exploited, that’s part of the expectation of what we do. ⁓

 

And then you look for a real job. And then I thought, what if we flip that on its head a little bit and we started where women are at, what they know how to do. And they know how to be in kitchens. Bring them in. Here’s a kitchen. And we know how to do hospitality and certainly in our culture. mean, we’re… So we thought women…

 

DI (33:43)

Morning kitchens.

 

HANA (33:49)

in a kitchen and we would offer up the, and I’m vegetarian, so we would make it the best possible vegetarian food ⁓ served up to Melbourne, cooked by these women. And for me it was also really important not to make the story about women, that women’s dignity was important, that the story is about this is a food place of Moroccan vegetarian food. Back of house it had a different story.

 

DI (34:15)

Yeah.

 

HANA (34:15)

because it’s not a charity. Women don’t need pity and charity. What they need is pathways and opportunities. ⁓ so at least I knew enough to separate the two. And front of house, this was for all intents and purposes, something that was grounded in our culture, that was being offered up to Melbourne as an alternative to vegetarianism, which at the time, you know,

 

DI (34:41)

Yeah.

 

There wasn’t much there.

 

HANA (34:46)

sauce and I valued

 

the integrity of flavors and had experimented over the years because I’m vegetarian, turfing the meat and chicken and putting potato and chickpeas. So I’d experimented for myself because I was familiar with a palate that is rich in flavor. And then, you know, the women came and ⁓

 

gave him a few recipes and said, is what we’re cooking and it’s vegetarian and it’ll be like this and we opened the Moroccan soup bar genuinely in good faith. 1998, pre-internet, pre-…

 

DI (35:21)

What year? wow.

 

Pre social media. Pre any of it. Yeah, wow.

 

HANA (35:31)

In the hope that, you know, and everybody at the time, absolutely every single living human being said to me, what are you doing? This is insane. What do you know about hospitality? And you’ve got a good job. You’re a coordinator of an organization. What? And I thought, no, something in me intuitively ⁓ thought not that

 

it would be and become what it has, but that I needed to do something that was different to the system that was a revolving door bandaid. How and what that looked like I didn’t know and trusted that it would be okay. Whatever it is, it’ll be okay.

 

DI (36:16)

What’s happening back at house?

 

HANA (36:18)

So Back of House, ⁓ women and to this day, I can tell you, we’ve never advertised for staff. And Back of House, is a space for women ⁓ to disrupt the cycle of violence initially, but then to look at and walk alongside them on whatever their journey is, whether it’s from basic language to up-skilling to developing.

 

you want to be a chef, want to whatever it is, you want to be a childcare worker, to walk alongside their journey, housing, childcare, and all those tangible things along the way became evident and we organically together reimagined solutions. So housing, coming back to your housing in the YWCA, women would say, okay,

 

DI (36:54)

This is

 

HANA (37:14)

I could never ring up an estate agent. I don’t have the references, don’t have the means to live alone and compete in private rental. Public and social housing needed five years to get into. So we would come together and I would say, listen, I’ll call and over the years we’ve got to know many real estate agents. Some of them are amazing. And what I would say is, I don’t want you to give her the house, but what I want you to do is I will guarantee

 

this application at least get a look in. And in their application often women will say, how about we live together? To other women. And how about I’ll look after your kids when you’re working, you look after my kids when I’m working. And that way they deal with the prohibitive childcare costs, ⁓ housing.

 

DI (37:46)

Yeah.

 

HANA (38:09)

They share the cost of housing and on top of it, the other layers of support, they validate one another’s experience. So they don’t end up going back. And I think they’ve been part of the success story of the Moroccan Super. And then on top of it, we identified. So that was the immediate need. And then we identified, okay, so what do you want to do if you want to springboard out of here to wherever else? And some would say, I want to do childcare. I want to do, ⁓

 

DI (38:23)

tested.

 

HANA (38:39)

advocacy, whatever it is, I want to be a patisserie chef. So we then formulated arrangements with Box Hill Institute and others to upskill these women. And the biggest problem sadly again is when people are not in touch with the lived experience.

 

They’ll say, there’s an option to upskill, get them to apply, here’s a course funded by government, la, la, la. Okay, but it competes with putting food on the table. If any woman is to take up that option, she has to take six weeks out of her income earning capacity to do that course to then be upskilled. And often, it’s not that women don’t want to. So I paid for their training as part of their time at the Moroccan Soup Bar.

 

DI (39:23)

prohibitive

 

HANA (39:30)

And often we would bring the training in and the hours are paid and there’s a ⁓ synergy between, I think, women, the courses that they are learning. And then they can see a vision and an outcome, an endpoint. It’s not just, here’s your accommodation to disrupt the crisis, now go fend for yourself, which is how sadly the system is made. And I think that’s been the successful

 

⁓ part of transitioning women and challenging quietly at times and at times more overtly some of the assumptions that are the very drivers of violence and gender-based violence, assumptions around female genital mutilation, for example, or assumptions around should women endure and stay and persevere in some circumstances or ⁓

 

you will have to defy your parents because, you know, we’re supposed to afford them respect, all those kind of things. When challenged from a place of knowledge ⁓ and when we can put aside superstition and culture and tradition, but come back to the very premise of what it is to be a decent human being, even a person of faith, then I think we can rewrite.

 

some of those outcomes and the Moroccan soup bar has been there for women back of house and the other thing that at the Moroccan soup bar not one woman has walked in the door knocked on the door and said I want a job and I’ve said no to and often we don’t need staff.

 

DI (41:13)

So have you been self-sustaining? Can I ask that? have. whole time.

 

HANA (41:16)

⁓

 

whole time. And I love that because it gives you the freedom to

 

DI (41:23)

You’re not beholden to anybody else’s.

 

HANA (41:25)

Nobody’s agenda, nobody’s criteria. It is simply the criteria of making the circumstances a little better for those we stumble across. And then obviously front of house, it grew into many over 26 years, many social causes became evident ⁓ and required us to take a stand like ⁓

 

DI (41:37)

It’s even more fantastic.

 

HANA (41:53)

our relationship to First Nations communities, how we can be allies, how we can take the responsibility beyond just acknowledgments, ⁓ to being effective allies in those conversations, the climate emergency, how we can reimagine plastic, polystyrene, all that sort of stuff.

 

DI (42:14)

So cultural limitations are irrelevant in any of this? Absolutely. You’ve diversified.

 

HANA (42:19)

Well, because I go back to, for me, kindness, compassion, justice, fairness, all those things, they’re a perspective. They’re not cause specific. And they can’t be just when it’s convenient, I’m only talking about this group. No. That no matter where they are and what you come across and you’re confronted by, that perspective is my responsibility to enact. So…

 

You know, same-sex marriage, all of those issues as they ⁓ became apparent over time and became social conversations, we took a stand on and our community, ⁓ and I often say I feel like a surrogate aunt.

 

DI (43:03)

I bet you do.

 

HANA (43:05)

community. And it’s not just North Victoria, we became a destination place, everybody came, it’s so humbling. ⁓ But with it, people, and I think it reaffirmed this idea that if you build it, they will come. Quirky as it may be, unconventional as it is, that it resonated with ⁓ the betterment of who we are. And a community was not only forgiving,

 

of, you know, at times some of the girls spilt tea on people. We’re not from hospitality. The food was great, always. ⁓ We never compromised on the standard. And yet people found themselves drawn to a place that was refuge to those values, I think. And no matter who you were, the richest

 

⁓ and or the most marginalised or homeless, you were afforded the same dignity and the place was yours. and I think that affirmation back from community, that kept us buoyed and it certainly allowed us to endure through COVID and… ⁓

 

DI (44:04)

Meh.

 

You’re

 

busier today with the activities that I will call back of house than front of house by contrast.

 

HANA (44:30)

So obviously I’ve written a book, in the book it’s also a deliberate contribution, I think, to bearing witness to our times in what I find that we are hostile to and repealing some of the gains that women have made over the years. ⁓

 

DI (44:32)

Yeah.

 

HANA (44:57)

That to me feels like it’s got a lot of momentum and pushback from the highest office of the land to some social media influencers or whoever it is. that conversation around putting women back in their place ⁓ should have remained in the history books. And yet, ⁓ we’re talking about abortion rights again, we’re revisiting ⁓ attitudes that I just find extraordinary.

 

And that gave me the impetus to write about, I mean, we call it a memoir. It is called The Audacity to be Free, but to reimagine freedom. And, you know, if I had to write my life story, I think it’ll be a thousand page and that’ll only be the beginning. But I did pick snippets of my life that spoke to these issues.

 

in the hope that they can resonate with and contribute to a conversation that we are having at the moment as a country on gender-based violence and how to engage all of society. Because this to me isn’t a women’s problem, nor is it a men’s problem. It’s our problem. And sad to say we all contribute.

 

to upholding attitudes through our silence and through what we say ⁓ that form part of the drivers. And the other thing I think is also important and ⁓ doesn’t really have a lot of space is that not all men are wholesale to blame for violence against women. And we unwittingly do this because we’ve left the field, we’ve gone

 

No, violence against women is a gendered problem. Yes, it is, but not all men are perpetrators of violence. all perpetrators are perpetrators and we need to really have better systems of accountability for that, absolutely. And at times even, dare I say, remove the man. Keep an eye on him, remove him, don’t disrupt her life and children anyway. Absolutely, and simple. And the other thing,

 

DI (47:15)

Wouldn’t that be novel?

 

HANA (47:21)

The men who are not perpetrators, they are our allies. Engage them in a way. Don’t, I mean, we’ve backed, sad to say, from what I’ve seen, men into a corner of not knowing how to be and what to do. And at times, equally, not all women are wholesale victims of violence, because even unwittingly, and at times overtly, but unwittingly, ⁓

 

DI (47:24)

Absolutely.

 

Yes, I couldn’t get him on

 

HANA (47:49)

You know, men like Trump were once boys in the home. Given legitimacy, What we ask our sons and daughters are different things. What we expect and allow for sons and daughters are different things. We are complicit also in

 

…the very attitudes that enable, because when boys grow up in households, and they’re not just the domain of women, both men and women, in what they witness, ⁓ and then it’s reinforced at a social setting, in schools, our boys will be boys, they play like… …and then it’s reinforced in politics, even in our political settings, that whole adversarial have-a-go toxic culture…

 

DI (48:25)

See it on the school bus.

 

I’m

 

that at the moment and it’s a reminder that it’s been going on for a long time.

 

HANA (48:47)

So let’s invite and engage ⁓ decent men in ⁓ being part of the solution, as well as, I think, women in all our roles and responsibilities, also reimagining and questioning some of the attitudes that we uphold. ⁓ which

 

you know, I think, are contributors, our attitudes towards men and women and boys and girls and non-binary people and prejudice and all of it. ⁓ These are the drivers. Yes, governments have a role and a responsibility and must address better institutions and systems and legal responses, ⁓ but it would be remiss of us not to look at the attitudinal drivers. ⁓

 

and engage men because I think we’ve left the void and that void has been filled by the Andrew Tates and others. The solution, the one thing I would say is at the moment we’re trying to second guess ourselves a little bit and kind of go, yeah, men need to be part of the solution, let them do the men’s shed and no. The solution has to be driven by women, supported by men.

 

DI (49:49)

That’s right.

 

HANA (50:09)

That is the only way those solutions are going to be effective. They need to be defined and driven by those who endure and experience the issue as allies with taking responsibility for the privileges they hold in society as our allies. So I think the solution to me is not impossible. In fact, it’s probable if we allow and make space for

 

⁓ a reimagining and that flagpole of a vision where society is freer for everybody to live with dignity and respect.

 

DI (50:49)

Thank you, Hannah. And if I wrap that up in a bow, The most salient point out of that, I think, to share and reinforce is the solution is created by women but supported by men. Absolutely. I think that’s it in an absolute nutshell. What an absolute pleasure and a privilege to speak with you today.

 

I will ensure that we add the details to the Moroccan Soup Kitchen in the show notes and a link to your book, The Audacity, to be free. And be sure to share this episode because this is a really important episode on so many levels. It touches on so many of societal challenges today and there won’t be anybody in your orbit that this isn’t relevant for, so please be sure to share it.

 

You can catch it on all of the ⁓ audio platforms and on YouTube. Until next time.

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