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The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

The 3 Thoughts That Keep You Invisible

by | Dec 8, 2025 | Female Author, Female Empowerment, Visibility

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Carlii Lyon joins Di Gillett to discuss her book Courage to Be – Small Steps for a Big Life, and to explore what it really takes to put yourself out there and the 3 thoughts that keep you invisible.

Former international publicist Carlii Lyon spent years building other people’s brands, from supermodel Miranda Kerr to global icons before realising she had become invisible herself.

Carlii unpacks these three universal thoughts that hold people back, how Future Self Psychology helps you act for the person you’re becoming, and why intuition might just be your most underrated leadership skill.

 

➡️You’ll Hear:

  • The three universal thoughts that hold people back from visibility
  • How to build a purpose-driven personal brand using the four P’s: Promise, Packaging, Position, Promotion
  • The difference between positional influence and personal influence
  • Why “we” language often keeps women small
  • How to start before you’re ready and why intuition is your edge.

 

➡️Carlli’s key learnings:

💡 Visibility is not vanity – it’s vitality

💡 Start before you’re ready – there’s magic in action

💡 Intuition is your inner intelligence – create quiet to hear it

💡 Think of your career as a brand partnership with the organisation you represent.

 

Carlii said:

“When we have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives.”

 

“Most people think if their work’s good enough, it will be seen. It won’t – you have to promote it.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (00:03)

Well, it’s a fear factor. Worry of how they’ll be judged. It’s, you know, there’s that idea of if I put my head, what’s the saying, if I put my head over the- the parapet. Yes, you know, I’m gonna be shot down.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (00:25)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs. Those moments that often don’t make the headlines but

 

absolutely should. So join the conversation and please subscribe wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts and be part of the power of women community.

 

What does it really take to be seen? Not just for what you do, but for who you are. Today’s guest knows a thing or two about visibility and what it really takes to put yourself out there. Carlii Lyon is a former international publicist who represented some of the most recognizable names in the world. From supermodel Miranda Kerr to bestselling authors,

 

and global brands like Microsoft and Volvo. Carlii has also just released her book, Courage to Be, the ultimate guide for anyone to step out from behind the scenes, embrace visibility, and live a bigger life. Carlii Lyon, welcome to the Power Of Women Podcast.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (01:57)

Thank you so much, Di. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:02)

You’re most welcome. Carlii, you have so eloquently described yourself as a high school dropout who started her PR agency at 21, which at that point is such a brave move. How did you start your business from that base and how did you build this incredible client base?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:26)

Yeah, well from dropping out of school or being politely asked to leave at 15. At 15? At 15, yeah. it was a school. I did everything. Everything you could consider a naughty teenager to do, I ticked it off the list. Like I was a high achiever.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (02:40)

KARA.

 

You look like the picture of angelic behaviour.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (02:56)

⁓ thank you. Well, I hope my teenage boys believe that as well, but I promise I wasn’t at that point. So from 15 to 21, when you think of it, that’s a seven year gap of being out in the world. And my dad said to me when I left school, he said, well, if you’re not going back to school, you have to work. And the next day I…

 

started an apprenticeship as a hairdresser because I was determined not to go back to school. So I did go out into the world of work for quite a while as a hairdresser and I did waitressing and all of those wonderful things that you tend to do, you know, as you’re deciding what you want to do as a grownup. So that was a long time out in the world working. So it definitely wasn’t

 

You know, I see 21 year olds today that are coming straight out of uni and the idea of starting a business straight out of uni whilst there are definitely some that are brave enough to do that. I feel like because I had seven years out in the world, it made it a lot easier. It’s, it is a runway. It is a runway. And I always looked older than I was. Which made it. No, no, no.

 

Thank you. take that as a compliment. But in terms of how did I launch the business, I’ll give you a real abridged version. I had a gentleman who’s still my mentor today say to me, Kali, I think you’d be good in PR. And just based off that one comment, I did go and enroll to study PR and six months

 

into my study, I naively perhaps or bravely thought I can do better than even what my teachers sound like they’re doing because they didn’t really they weren’t very engaged or they didn’t seem that excited. And so I just went out and started building a clientele base. And before I even finished that diploma, I had my business.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (05:12)

Wow. There you go. So yeah, I gotta say some of that naughty teenager had some real spice and some kick behind it. So well done.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (05:15)

Yeah, I was determined.

 

Absolutely. I think there is definitely a place in the world for a rebellious streak and not waiting, starting before you’re ready, doing the things that people tell you you can’t do. And I will also add at that point, I did have a big motivation to get out into the world and share the message of wellness because I had gone through my own personal transformation of

 

going from being a party girl and a rebel with no cause and doing lots of destructive things to being an aspiring health and wellness guru after I spent two months at a health retreat. So I did also have this real passion and fire to get that message out there. And I think when you have that passion, fire,

 

and you’re willing to just do whatever it takes. There’s real magic in that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (06:40)

Mm-hmm. what you’re talking about and what you’re specializing in now, but you established a reputation as a PR professional for building other brands.

 

before realising that you yourself were becoming invisible, something that has been put to me of late, I’m very interested in this one. I love talking about reinvention. Tell me about yours, because how did you realise that that was not working and you were disappearing as others were coming forward?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (07:19)

I didn’t realize how invisible I was or had become until I went on extended maternity leave. So I was out in the world, as you said, building other people’s brands for well over a decade and doing so many amazing things all over the world for these amazing people. Then I went on extended maternity leave and I went from having this global PR fast paced career.

 

to being at home with two babies under two, two beautiful boys under two. And I was so happy and felt incredibly privileged that I was able to do that. And it wasn’t until the end of that where my boys started to go back to, or started daycare, excuse me, and I started contemplating, okay, so what is my next step going to be?

 

It was at that junction where I thought, my God, really, through all of those years, I didn’t necessarily really nurture my, my network. I definitely hadn’t put myself out there in any constructive way. I even reflected on moments where I had been approached by the media, being this young woman in business, representing these amazing people.

 

Asked to be interviewed myself and I remember distinctly calling one of my clients and saying, I’ve been approached by this magazine, which by the way, media doesn’t generally reach out to you. You have to be the one reaching, which I think is an important point to make. And I called my client and said, do you, do you think I should do it? Do you mind if I do it? Like I was asking permission and almost validation from my clients. So.

 

That was the moment for me, Di, that I was like, my God, what am I, what was I waiting for? What held me back? Why didn’t I do that when I was clearly doing it for everyone else? What was it that I felt it wasn’t relevant to me? And in that moment, I just, suppose I realized, if I was thinking like that,

 

then I imagine a lot of people out in the world are feeling exactly the same way.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (09:48)

So there’s a difference between visibility and currency. market, the market was saying you had currency because they, they were coming to you wanting to be interviewed, but you, you were challenging the personal visibility piece of stepping forward yourself instead of putting one of your brands out front and you do the behind the, behind the scenes work. Am I right in qualifying? Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (10:17)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I always put it in the terms of I had a lot of positional influence. So just by proximity of working with the clients that I was working with, I had positional influence. And if I’m really honest, that did go to my head and it was a false economy because I thought, well, I’m influential because

 

I was getting all of the benefits of representing influential clients and how that shows up today for a lot of my clients that I’m working with who are not necessarily high profile. They’re not in that world of talent and entertainment. They’re executives. Yeah. But how that shows up for them, they’re working for some of the biggest brands in the world. And so they also have a lot of positional influence when they walk into boardrooms.

 

They’re bolstered up by the fact that they’re representing these huge brands. They are also operating in a false economy because it only takes for you to step out of that, which I did in maternity leave to go, ⁓ that was all based on my position. It wasn’t personal influence.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (11:31)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. And it’s interesting because I often have the dialogue in individuals working in the consulting world who build their own portfolio, but under the auspices of a big brand. The biggest issue for those big brands is when those individuals become a brand within themselves, their organization. And then, you know, the

 

big banner over the door has to ask who’s walking through the door, the brand that they work for or brand personal brand. And that’s brilliant for the individual, but not necessarily brilliant for the organization who employs you. So it can happen.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (12:17)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, I think that’s a really fair statement. And I have definitely heard of cases where there is that sense of confusion where there’s an individual who’s really getting out there and doing things. And whilst they are working with a big brand, they’re becoming a brand themselves. And I understand that perhaps it’s something you need to be mindful of. But in my experience, it’s

 

Usually the opposite way is that the the individual is not doing anything and there’s it’s an anomaly for it to be the other way where the individuals doing so much that it becomes a problem. So there is obviously a need for mindfulness and understanding what’s the operating model that you’re working within you know I do know there are brands that they absolutely frown upon any form of.

 

self-promotion and personal brand. And I always say to clients and individuals, if you are going into that scenario, then you’re going into that scenario with open eyes. the ideal situation and mindset that I try to promote in the clients that I work with is I want them to start thinking of themselves as being in brand partnership.

 

with the brands they work for. So rather than it being a case of the brand, yeah, and the brands up here and I’m just this little cog in the machine. When you take that step of no, I’m in brand partnership with the brand doesn’t make you automatically the spokesperson for the brand, but it’s an energetic shift. And you start to realize that

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (13:53)

out.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (14:13)

And also start to be mindful of, how can I use this positional influence to my own benefit as well? Because you’re giving so much of your time and energy to the role, to the company. I think that’s only a fair part of the equation is what can you also leverage in, in that, in building the asset that is your personal brand? Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (14:20)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, yeah, I love that framing of it. So you also write, and I think this is a direct quote, that when you have the courage to be seen, heard and known, we attract the right people, places and opportunities into our lives. So if that be the case, why does so many women and even the most accomplished amongst us struggle with being seen?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:09)

Well, it’s a fear factor. It’s a ⁓ worry of how they’ll be judged.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (15:21)

It’s… It keeps coming up.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (15:22)

Yeah.

 

It’s it’s you know there’s that idea of if I put my head what’s the saying if I put my head over the. Yes, you know I’m going to be shot down.

 

Yeah, there, if we’re speaking specifically about women, there is this, they tend to be the ones who are more collaborative. And even I’ve seen, even just recently, what comes to mind is I was, I had the privilege of sitting in, in a boardroom session where there were a group of emerging leaders.

 

presenting to a group of senior leaders and their opportunity was presented to them to have a moment where they really, you know, were able to highlight their achievements and put the spotlight on what they’ve been doing. And it was a, there was a combination of male executive emerging leaders and also female. And I was sitting there quietly on the sidelines watching as this unfolded and the men got up.

 

and talked about their achievements and there was a lot of mention of I did this, my vision was this, et cetera. And then the women got up and it was, we did this, we did that. And there was no claiming their fame, no I. And I have to say when they left the room and then the senior leaders were reflecting and making their comments.

 

It does get noticed when you’re not confidently claiming your fame and owning your achievements. So whilst there might be a hesitation because, or, you know, I don’t want to be seen as the one who’s the tall poppy and I don’t want to be seen as big noting myself. There’s also negative connotations. If you are being so humble, you are coming across as being.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:34)

Mmm.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (17:38)

you know, more meek and that’s not impressive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (17:41)

Yeah, it’s so true, Carlii. I told a story only recently of an organisation several decades ago where I had to go through a assessment centre to get in and there was about 30 of us in this assessment centre and at the end of the day, we’re all sitting around this massively extended boardroom table and we were given a topic and a couple of seconds to prepare and speak.

 

Hmm. 30 of us presenting and 29 of those individuals gave their presentation whilst seated in the position that they were seated at the table. I was the only one who stood up two decades or three decades ago, went and stood at the head of the table and presented with a level of authority from the head of the table.

 

and I was the only one out of 30 who got selected to join the organisation.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (18:46)

Amazing. You know that gave me goosebumps then. ⁓ really? Yeah it actually did because you know it represents something it’s so powerful and it’s so inspiring and for all the reasons why women don’t necessarily do it on the flip side of that when you do it like I’m sure

 

the 29 others, whilst there might’ve been a few that were like, God, who does she think she is? Cause there will always be a few of those. Without question, they exist everywhere. But then there would’ve been others in there that would’ve gone, wow, like I wanna be like her. I wish I did that. And you gave them permission to do that in the next opportunity. But it’s, that’s, I love that. I love that story.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (19:16)

Without qu-

 

that all I wish.

 

We will come back to that point, Carlii, because there is a risk, as to the phrase you were referencing before, putting your head up above the parapet. But we’ll come back to that, because I think that’s an important point. But let’s talk about the three universal thoughts individuals struggle with on the line to putting themselves out there. You’ve clearly…

 

defined what those three universal thoughts. Can you talk us through that? And if they hold us back either from visibility or opportunity or both.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (20:17)

Yes. So I wrote an article about these three thoughts and this article on LinkedIn went crazy viral, like crazy, crazy viral. And I always say, I believe that article went viral to the extent that it did because everyone could see themselves in these three thoughts. And the reason I wrote the article and I wanted to put these three thoughts in black and white was I

 

started coaching individuals one-on-one. I realized they were all having these same three thoughts. But even more importantly for myself and my own sense of development, I had thought that these three thoughts were personal to me, that I was the only one thinking them. And when I realized everyone was thinking them, I thought, okay, I’ve got to get these out in the world because if we know that they’re just

 

thoughts that everyone has we don’t take them so personally and we can override. The impact that these thoughts have okay so here they are. The first one is who am I to speak and this comes from a place of us being completely unable to see ourselves truly objectively and the things that we know the things that we’ve done.

 

The person that we are, we don’t necessarily value to the same extent as what we do when we look at others or we hear about what others are doing. So this, am I to speak? Everyone feels the same. And this thought is in the minds of some of the people that you would never assume. Like that have got all the.

 

accolades and all of the not accolades, excuse me, credibility is the better word, but they still think that they shouldn’t speak. The next one is I’m not saying anything new. So why would anyone care? And this is especially relevant when people start putting themselves out there and sharing their thought leadership and their stories. There’s this sense of, well, if I’m not saying anything new,

 

And groundbreaking and never heard before then it’s irrelevant no one will care and. You know if and i’m sure a lot of your listeners are avid readers if you happen to. Especially in the non-fiction realm if you happen to follow a particular topic so in my case i love researching about influence and body language and these sorts of subjects.

 

And the honest truth is, Di, everyone’s saying the same thing, but they’re just saying it slightly differently through their own tone of voice, through their stories in, you know, in their realm of experience. But they’re all saying the same thing. So if ever you’re questioning, I’m not saying anything new, so why would anyone care? I want you to think of your favourite non-fiction book.

 

And imagine, imagine if that author had have held themselves back by thinking that. Like it would, the world would miss out on that. And then the last thought is everyone will think I have a big ego. So this worry of, you know, if I put myself out there, people are going to be thinking, or who does she think she is or who does he think he is?

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (23:50)

You

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (24:01)

And yes, like we just said, those people absolutely exist in the world. But my experience tells me that those people are just so afraid of putting themselves out there that when they see someone else do it, it makes them intimidated.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (24:19)

Those points are absolutely brilliant. So I reflect back to the 30-something year old who stood up at the head of a boardroom table and landed themselves a job by being bolshe. And I don’t know whether I did that in a considered sense or it was just an innate thing that that’s what I did. And I think it’s more the latter than the former. Only very recently,

 

coming to the realization through somebody poking the bear that I needed to be more visible as a brand to promote the Power Of Women Podcast. In so doing and putting myself out there, all three of those things enter my mind at some point in time every week.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:10)

Yep.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:11)

with all the confidence in the world, I still reflect on those points.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:17)

Yep, they are universal. And my favorite author, Steven Pressfield, who wrote an exceptional book called The War of Art. He talks about how in the universe there is a force that he calls the resistance and the resistance exists in the universe to stop us from doing the things that we’re meant to do, from being the person that we truly in our heart and soul want to be.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (25:28)

Yes.

 

Yep.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (25:47)

And so I see these three thoughts as a form of resistance now. And when you

 

almost create a bit of distance and you can hear the thought pop up and know that it’s just resistance. It’s everyone feels like this. Every single person that you see out in the world at whatever level they’re at, they are having the same thoughts.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:17)

Maybe it’s a saline-relating dose so that we don’t get too gushy. Maybe.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:23)

Maybe. Yeah, absolutely, maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:28)

Whether

 

it’s fully on or just slightly on.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:31)

Yeah, maybe it will stop us from all becoming crazy egomaniacs who think that we’re too god-like and do everything.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (26:42)

A few

 

people I could name globally who might not have these thoughts that we could run. It is, so maybe it is. So you encourage readers to embrace the life-changing magic of, of I, and it doesn’t escape my notice, Carlii, that you have two I’s in your spelling of Carlii. So my first question is, have, did you always, was that the name you were given?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (26:47)

Maybe.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:12)

and the second it wasn’t you that

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:14)

No,

 

was not the name I was given. consulted with a… I mean, this was in my 20s. I consulted with a very well-known… I asked. Yes. I know. It’s funny, the other day I was walking with one of my closest friends, and she’s a newer friend in my life.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (27:31)

Do this.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (27:44)

She never knew that I changed my name. She was like, I never knew this. How could you know? So it’s a good pick up die. But I did, I consulted with a famous numerologist who unfortunately has passed away and he was known as a numerologist to specialize in names because in terms of the world of numerology, everything can be… ⁓

 

It can turn into a number. all of the letters. Yes. So I don’t know if you know much about numerology. When you look at your name in total. ⁓ okay. Perfect. So I had my name done and I changed. I was born with Carlii with a Y. So I did add the two, I’s and I changed my middle name and my surname.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:16)

Yeah.

 

and your surname. ⁓ There’s the rebellious kid coming back. How did that go down? How did mom and dad services, this is pre-marriage or post-marriage?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:44)

I’m

 

This is pre-marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (28:55)

How

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (28:57)

Well, Lion, so my mother’s maiden name is Lions with an S. He dropped the S because apparently that was not good for the numbers. So there was still a nod to mom and dad. My dad was upset in the beginning that I had changed, but he soon came around.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:02)

Yes. Yeah. Cause I was also good. Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:25)

Old school and he’s has an Italian background. And then what was funny is I married an Italian and even though in Italy women don’t change their names. My husband was a little bit more old school and he did want me to take his name, but I didn’t. So I know. So every time we’d go to a wedding, he’d be like, see, she took their name or blah, blah.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (29:44)

Bye!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (29:52)

So it took him a while to get his head around it. you know, I am a personal, obviously a personal brand. I live and breathe personal branding and my name is my name. Like it’s my name, it’s my identity. So I couldn’t imagine changing it even for marriage.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (30:09)

Yeah, they go. And as I say, I’m so glad I asked you that because every time I put your name down, think must remember to ask Karla. Because the point of distinction is a powerful one. And I got married at ⁓ 40 years of age also to a European whose surname was far more renowned in the public domain than mine. But I didn’t.

 

Yeah. ⁓ Sorry.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (31:01)

Okay, perfect.

 

You can lean on it then. can use it. That’s even better. You’ve got two options now.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (31:09)

Yeah,

 

so there you go. So I’m talking with former international publicist, turned speaker and executive coach Carlii Lyon, Carlii with a double I. And coming up, we’re going to talk about putting yourself out there and trusting your intuition. If you’re loving the Power Of Women Podcast, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel.

 

and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Carlii, you talk about future self-psychology as a powerful concept based around imagining who we want to become. Could you tell us a little bit about what future self-psychology is and how we use or can use this framework to shape our personal brand?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (32:03)

I didn’t even know that future self-psychology was actually an area of psychology and there are a few key pioneers in this space and when I first came across the research and the thinking, quite frankly, I was just blown away and it made so much intuitive sense which

 

You know, which is why you barely even really need to explain it. But in a snapshot, what future self psychology is, is using the power of perspective and even in some ways, your imagination of thinking about your future self and using that to your advantage. So I’ll give you an example. There is a gentleman by the name of

 

Hal Hirschfield, who is a professor at UCLA and he did a TED talk on this and a lot of his work centers around this idea of future self-psychology. And in his case, he’s talking about how it impacts decision-making and behavior. And what he did in one of his research studies was he got a group of students together. They were all given a digital avatar and invited to go into a virtual reality.

 

And one half of the students was given a digital avatar that looks like who they were today. And the other half of the students were given a digital avatar that was digitally enhanced to look like who they would be in 40 years time. so you see in his Ted talk, he actually shows clips of these students going into this digital realm and looking at themselves in the mirror.

 

And at the end of their journey, they had to come back, sit down and answer some questions. In this case, it was around financial decision-making. And what they found was that the individuals who went in and saw themselves effectively in 40 years time, they committed to saving, I believe it was 20 or 30 % more.

 

Then the individuals who went in and just saw themselves as who they were today and in the moment. So it’s this idea of when you truly embody the concept that your future self will be an entirely different person and that the consequences of everything you do and you don’t do in the now are going to ⁓ impact that.

 

other person, then your decision making is potentially going to be different. I certainly think better because you do realize that, okay, I’m creating that future for that person who I’m not at the moment, but that person’s going to live the results of every decision that I make. And when it comes to personal branding and making the decision of

 

putting yourself out there, building your profile. In the now, you know, it can be a hard ask because people are busy. They’re already thinking about just doing what they have to do. And then when you put it to them that, okay, on top of that, you have to go and network. You have to share your thought leadership.

 

You you

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (36:06)

I know!

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (36:14)

You know i want you to imagine you’ve been offered this amazing opportunity it’s going to give you massive visibility it’s something you’ve never done before and you’re questioning whether you should do it and in the now you’re thinking am i ready should i do this can i do this. I want you to imagine what would your future self say to you at that point when you’re making the decision and every single time it gives the audience.

 

Goosebumps because every single time it will be something so simple, but yet so profound. It’s just like, go for it. Just do it. You’ve got this. And to me, it just shows that we have this mentor in us that we can use and tap into anytime.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (37:04)

Yeah, thank you. That’s brilliant. I love that. And do you know, I’m sitting here listening to you talking about this and envisaging future self. And sometimes I have to wonder whether I’ve done a lap of the planet before because I find myself doing things innately and then I learn about what it is that I’m doing after I’ve already done it.

 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:01)

Mmm, I love that. Yeah. Well, that’s a good thing. It’s like confirmation.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:07)

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s something that leaves me feeling very positive. thank you for clarifying future self psychology. And this probably leads very much into that as a next step and intuition and I call it my inner intelligence and and and something I tap into very regularly. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:16)

rhyme.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (38:35)

And I think some people, as we might suggest from the prelude to this question, ⁓ are more naturally attuned to the subtle cues. how does somebody who’s not learn to listen to their intuition and then channel it into what really matters?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (38:55)

Hmm.

 

Intuition has been, so my goal for this year and, you know, through the process of launching my book and doing all of these effectively new things, my biggest goal was listen to my intuition, really trust my intuition and take action on my intuition. And in doing that and consciously doing that this year,

 

I can say with a sense of authority that it really comes down to practice. And in terms of how, for me, it’s sitting still, being quiet, creating those moments of calm. So even I’ve started, instead of getting in the car and automatically turning on music,

 

I don’t turn on anything. And I, for me, that’s creating a moment, almost like setting a stage for my intuition to come in. That’s been my experience that the quieter you are, the easier it is to hear that little voice. And for different people, they’re going to experience their intuition differently.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:09)

I like that.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:27)

And I would say for the people who perhaps they’re new to the idea, and I am thinking that a lot of the people that are listening are probably not so new to it because I, and this may be a grand overstatement and stereotype, but I feel like women are at being intuitive.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (40:48)

really good

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (40:52)

And we hear our intuition, we’re in touch with our intuition, but whether we act on our intuition, that’s another thing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:00)

sufficiently yeah yeah

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:02)

Yes.

 

And perhaps it’s just in that case, the practice is not necessarily learning to hear it or learning to listen. It’s learning to just take action. So I’ve got to the point now this year because it was my goal. It was a front and center goal for me. If my intuition tells me to send an email to someone, follow up someone, go to a particular event, I’m just going.

 

Like I’m not even questioning and I have to say I’ve had some really remarkable things come through as a result of doing that.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (41:41)

Was it unnerving to start with? Did you have to step out of comfort zone or was it simply taking action?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (41:52)

I wouldn’t say it was unnerving because it’s always been something that I’ve appreciated. I would say it was more come really actually comes back to what you just said in terms of confirmation. Like you’re doing certain things or not doing certain things. And by making it front and center, I confirmed to myself not only how important it is.

 

to listen and take action, even when it doesn’t make sense. But I also confirmed to myself how sometimes I really wasn’t listening and I was not trusting it.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (42:35)

Yeah, great. So are you going to say something else then, Carlii?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (42:41)

No, I was just going to say how this and why I put this in the book was when it comes to personal branding. I think having that close connection with your intuition is so important because what I find is a lot of the time when someone first starts to put themselves out there and perhaps this this even mirrors how we develop as beings as humans.

 

In the beginning, we’re really looking around us to see what is everyone else doing and what can I mimic and how can I imitate and, and, and maybe that’s natural because then we go through our teenage years and we go, okay, I take this, I take this and I’ll change this. But when it comes to personal branding and putting ourselves out there in the beginning, it’s really tempting to just go, ⁓ but that’s how they’re doing it. So I’m going to do it like that. Or, you know, I want to do this, but maybe that’s wrong.

 

because no one else is doing it. And that’s where I think intuition plays such a dramatic role in just trusting that experiment with that, you know, maybe put something out there.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (43:55)

situation tells me where that white space is is where you should go. Yes. ⁓

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:00)

Exactly. That might be your edge. by doing when, you know, when everyone’s zigging and your intuition is saying you should zag, it’s probably great advice.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (44:12)

Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, Carlii, finally for the woman today thinking about stepping forward and they’ve got some hesitation around that. What does putting yourself out there with purpose really look like in everyday life? Is there an example that you could play out for us?

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (44:35)

Yes, absolutely. Whenever you start to contemplate what you want your personal brand to be and how you want to shape your personal brand, a lot of clues in how to do that can actually be borrowed by some of the biggest brands in the world. And you can really lean on some traditional frameworks of brand marketing in

 

My case or what I speak about often is the four P’s. So the four P’s, are definitely for anyone in marketing, they’ll be familiar with the four P’s or this version of them is promise, packaging, position and promotion. So even if you sat down with a blank piece of paper and you put four circles on the page and you have promise, packaging, position, promotion.

 

promise is, what do you stand for? What do you want to be known for? How do you want to be remembered? And the really simple way of getting to that is, what are perhaps three words, ideas or phrases that you want people to automatically associate with you? That’s your promise. That’s the thing that you want people to automatically think of when they think of you. Once you’ve got that promise,

 

You can then shape and color the other parts of the puzzle. So you’ve got your packaging. Your packaging is not only how do you package yourself in person, so your styling, you know, your styling decisions, but also how you’re packaging yourself online. That’s your social media. So it’s really looking at every touch point, how am I packaging myself and what am I signaling?

 

in doing so, how am I dressing? What colors am I using? What words, phrases? So that’s your packaging. Your positioning, when you think of positioning in the world of brand marketing, we know that brands make sure that their products are on the right shelf in the right place because it will have a huge impact on how a customer receives and relates to that product. The same thing is for an individual.

 

Your positioning is not only potentially where you work or what industry you play in. Your positioning is what events are you going to? ⁓ If you are a thought leader, well, what platforms are you using? This is all shaping how people see you and what they associate with you. And then the last piece of the puzzle, which I think is the most important, is promotion.

 

Most people fall into the trap of thinking, if my work’s good enough, people will see it and that will be the end of the story. But we know in brand marketing, the biggest brands in the world are the biggest promoters in the world. They’re the biggest advertisers. Why? Because they know they have to stay top of mind. They have to stay relevant. They know that people’s attention spans are short. They know that they have to constantly

 

be reminding them of the brand. The same thing applies to our personal brands and not making the assumption that everyone’s thinking about you. Everyone sees you. Everyone knows what you’re doing because they don’t and psychology supports that statement. So I would start with that blank piece of paper. What are your four P’s and just look at, look at that as a starting point.

 

because that might shift your

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:26)

Masterclass. Yep. Thank you. And I, I personally have learned a lot, crossed a few things off and validated a few things that I’m doing just through the course of reflecting on exactly, exactly what you’ve said. they’re absolutely powerful points, Carlii. So, so thank you so much. Carlii, what a brilliant

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (48:44)

Amazing.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (48:52)

episode today and it will be one of our closing episodes of the year. So I think what I would ask anybody listening to this is to play this over a couple of times. Take down the point. This is a bit of a masterclass over your Christmas break if you’re going to give yourself one to stop and reflect about how you are managing

 

yourself as a brand, whether it be that you want to step forward into your own business, you want to elevate yourself within the organisation with which you are, or you might be pursuing some purpose-led perspective that you’re embracing as a next stage in your career or your life. So Carlii, thank you so very much for that. And your book Courage To Be is out on the shelves now.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (49:52)

It is, thank you. Very exciting. And I just want to say, Di, thank you so much for having me and thank you for putting yourself out there in what you’re doing. And as you mentioned, how much work goes into even this podcast and each podcast episode. I know that you’re doing it for a very big purpose and that every woman who listens to it.

 

is benefiting from that. So thank you for allowing me to play a small part.

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (50:24)

Thank you, Carlii. That endorsement means a lot and it makes me feel a little bit emotional. So thank you. Thank you so much. Please be sure to jump on to the show notes and there you’ll find where to find Carlii if you’d like to pursue a direct conversation. And I know you show up as I do quite regularly on LinkedIn where we’re LinkedIn fiends. That’s a really good spot.

 

to find either of us. Carlii, just for ⁓ edification, your website is…

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:04)

CarliiLyon.com

 

DI GILLETT – [HOST] (51:06)

Carlii, thank you again. It’s been an absolute privilege to go through all this. Thank you. So enlightening personally. So I know how enlightening it will be for our listeners. Until next time.

 

CARLII LYON – [GUEST] (51:12)

Thank you.

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Carlii Lyon at:

Website www.carliilyon.com

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/carliilyon

Instagram @carlii_lyon

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Why Courage – Not Confidence – Is Underrated – At Any Age

Why Courage – Not Confidence – Is Underrated – At Any Age

by | Nov 23, 2025 | Career Change Over 50, Exemplar, Female Empowerment

From ICU nurse to CEO of one of Australia’s most complex healthcare infrastructure projects, Di Mantell has spent her career proving that leadership has no expiry date.

In this episode, Di joins host Di Gillett to explore why courage matters more than confidence and how purpose and perseverance create real impact. She shares how saying “yes” before you feel ready can change your trajectory, what it takes to lead through complexity, and why visibility for women over 50 isn’t fading – it’s evolving.

 

➡️In this episode you’ll hear:

  • Why bravery is the most under-rated leadership skill
  • Lessons from delivering the world’s largest healthcare sustainability loan
  • How to step forward before you feel ready
  • The truth about visibility and ageism in leadership How mentorship and legacy shape the next generation of leaders

 

Di Mantell said:

“If you step forward and you don’t like it, step sideways. Just don’t wait.”

“Leadership isn’t about titles – it’s about purpose, perseverance and partnerships.”

“Never say never. If someone sees something in you that you can’t yet see, trust them and step up.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI MANTELL [Guest] (00:02)

think it’s about being brave. ⁓ If you look at all of the things that have got you to where you are right now, and you toed up what those skills are and what those roles are and what the things that you have achieved, both personally and professionally, most people are pretty special. And you’ve got the skills and you’ve got the ability to do things. You have to decide that you are going to take that next step and no one else can do that for you. You need to be brave.

 

And If you step forward and you don’t like what it is, well next time maybe you step sideways or maybe you step in a different direction. But it’s not, you can’t sit there and wait. The world doesn’t know you were living.

 

I’ve always believed that leadership isn’t about titles, it’s about purpose, perseverance and partnerships. Purpose gives me direction, perseverance keeps me focused on when things get messy, and partnership, that’s how you actually make things happen. When you lead with your heart, you stay curious and anything is possible.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (01:06)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast. And what I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is where the real stories are told and where we remind you to never assume. We talk resilience, reinvention and breakthroughs, the moments that don’t often make the headlines, but absolutely should.

 

So join the conversation wherever you listen to your favourite podcasts and be part of the power of women community. So let me ask you, do you ever feel invisible? Is purpose a question that you’re grappling with? And do you believe ageism, subtle or not, is still shaping how women are seen, valued and heard in the workplace?

 

Because today’s guest has lived those questions and answered them boldly. Di Mantell isn’t your typical CEO. She’s the pink-haired powerhouse behind Australia’s biggest healthcare milestones. Her leadership philosophy is built on purpose, perseverance and partnerships and a belief that the best decisions are often the ones you’re not quite ready for.

 

From ICU nursing Wagga Wagga to the boardrooms of billion dollar infrastructure and that’s billion with a B, Di’s story is proof that courage compounds and that visibility doesn’t fade with age. In fact, it deepens with purpose. So joining me to challenge a few societal views and share her story, Di Mantell, welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (02:55)

Thanks, Di,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (02:57)

I,

 

you’re known as I said as the pinkhead powerhouse. We might share that pink in common. Who delivered Australia’s largest healthcare sustainability loan and what people may not realise is that your leadership story started a long way from the boardroom. Di, what was your first job?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:18)

My first job was a ballroom and Latin American dancing teacher.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:23)

Here

 

you go. What age, Di?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:27)

I was about 14, 15, I think, when I started. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:30)

And

 

still able to throw it out on the dance floor.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:36)

⁓ not as good as I was, but yeah, I can still do it, I think.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (03:40)

Brilliant. So if you look back now, what were the moments that set your leadership DNA?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (03:47)

thought about this a lot. I think I was initially quite reserved and I definitely wasn’t a cool kid at school. Definitely that wasn’t me. I think when I started nursing that gave me the skills and courage to stand up for what I thought was right and how things would work. But I never ever thought of being a leader. I had twins at 22, quite young, because I had endometriosis and it was then or never.

 

So that teaches you a lot about being organised and getting your act together, I think. But for me, think deciding that if I wanted to make changes and do things, then I had to get on and do them because I was a young mum, went back to working. ⁓ I knew what I didn’t want to do, but I don’t think I was quite as clear about what I did want to do.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (04:39)

enough. So Di you often talk about achieving the impossible which sounds like you started really early in doing that. What’s the drive behind that view?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (04:52)

For me, think Having a really clear purpose enables you to drive an impact. And I think if perseverance is about delivering with heart, I love a shiny ball as much as anyone and a challenge that pops up and then you think that looks really cool and then work out how the hell you’re actually going to do it. And I love proving people wrong that they say, you couldn’t possibly do that. I know when I worked on the Fiona Stanley Hospital in Perth,

 

We put out a services contract for 25 services to support the new Fiona Stanley Hospital and everyone went, you will never get someone that will subcontract that, that’s too big. It was the largest services contract let in the Southern hemisphere. ⁓ And we did get it and we did prove that we could do it and we got a successful candidate for it and we put them in place. When we did the green and social loan, no one had ever done that before.

 

There was no green and social finance framework, so I had to write one. It wasn’t something I ever thought I would do. But I think once you decide you’re going to do it, you just need to buckle down and work out, what does that mean? What do I have to do now and how do I get there? And for me, I love that challenge and I love proving that I can do it, even though I don’t necessarily think I have the skills when I maybe start that decision.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (06:13)

You’ve

 

done a lot of first-offs by the sound of that Di. A lot of startups, a lot of leading initiatives, because I would take it that the Fiona Stanley Hospital came out of the Bali tragedy. Is that right?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (06:27)

It, no, so part of it was, I think they decided after they did a big review, ⁓ the READ review in WA, that they needed to have a new hospital. What is quite unusual is to have what they call a greenfield site, where you basically aren’t knocking down one hospital to build another one, which is often what happens, which is what we’ve done in Adelaide. But it was building a brand new site that would have more services and would be state of the art. And most teaching hospitals last about

 

you know, good 50 odd years, you know, before you get another one. So you need to do them well. But it did enable us to take pieces from a number of hospitals and bring that together, put a whole new culture into that facility, put a whole, do a services contract with the private sector and then be able to still build up the services in the other hospitals that remain. So it was, there were only two greenfield sites being done at the time worldwide when we did that one. yeah.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (07:25)

So

 

if we just wind back to sort of your career build, Di, because you said you didn’t have that much sort of confidence and here you are leading these extraordinary initiatives. So if I look back, you became a nurse unit manager at 23 and if I’m right, you said you didn’t actually even apply for that job. So how did that shape your, that early experience in that scenario, shape your self-confidence and belief in yourself?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (07:55)

I knew that I was clinically strong and I really loved ICU and I would still do it today if I went back to doing clinical work that’s where I would go back to. And I really, really loved ICU at the time. In nursing and in clinical work, certainly in nursing, a lot of the time you are promoted because you’re very good and strong clinically. You’re not good because you’re necessarily a manager but you get promoted to a management role.

 

So you’re right, I didn’t apply. Other people in the unit did apply and I was asked to take on the role. And after I’d said no three times and then said I would do it for six weeks.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:32)

Why

 

did you say no, Di? What was holding you back at that point?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (08:36)

I think it was more that I knew other people had applied for it who had been there for longer than me and I thought that’s fine, that works for them. I had young children so shift work sort of worked for me but I didn’t think, I hadn’t thought that I had those skills that I thought you needed to be a nurse unit manager.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (08:55)

So you were doubting yourself more so than thinking you had time to do it? Yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (09:00)

Yeah, it was a combination because most nurse unit managers at that time were like 55, 60, they’d been there forever. They were a very different sort of design focus than what I thought I was. And so for me, it was like, no, no, well, I’m happy for them to do it. I hadn’t really thought I would ever want to do that. I was very clear on things that I didn’t want to do. I wasn’t probably as clear on what I wanted to do. But for me, when I took on the role, ⁓

 

for my six weeks, I decided that I would definitely wanted to be exceptional in doing it. So what I wanted to go and do was to go and get the skills to do it. So I put myself through a Bachelor of Health Science Management, which was an external studies program that ran over six years, which ⁓

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (09:45)

top of twins, on top of the extra responsibility. Yeah, yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (09:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was insane, absolutely insane and going to Bathurst twice a year for residential school. So, ⁓ but I was determined that if I was going to do it, I would have the qualifications. So there was no disputing that I was actually qualified to do the role. So ⁓ I’m glad I took it. It was an amazing opportunity. It was a very cool job to do. And I didn’t want to fail. Once I decided I was doing it.

 

Failing was non-negotiable, so I just had to move forward and make it work.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:21)

How’d you juggle everything? What was the stress level like?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (10:24)

I never studied before 9.30 at night when I put the children to bed. ⁓ So, and I worked my day shift and whatnot, but whenever we were busy on a long weekend, a weekend at work, I would still go and cover. So yeah, was a pretty crazy period of time.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (10:42)

even going to ask you to to ⁓ to tally up the hours there’s no point so it was a lot yeah. So you’ve said growth happens when you take a leap and that was absolutely ⁓ a leap but have you ever done that before you were you felt that you were ready was was that your thinking behind the I’m taking this but I’m going to catch up with the with the ⁓

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (10:48)

I’m

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (11:11)

the education as I go along. It will.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (11:13)

Yes,

 

think I’ve done, yeah, I think I’ve taken a leap a few times and not thought about it. I made a decision to leave New South Wales and go to Kalgoorlie, full disclosure, I’d got divorced and I decided that I needed to be in a different town. So I went from Tumut in Snowy Mountains to Kalgoorlie, so I probably couldn’t have gone much further within Australia.

 

I took on the role there of the executive director of nursing for Northern Goldfields Health Service and it was an incredible opportunity and it serviced from Leonor and Laverton which is about 300 odd kilometres north of Kalgoorlie, 600 kilometres from Perth for those who don’t know and all the way down to Esperance at the coast. I didn’t know anyone there, I didn’t even go there for the interview, I had the interview done in

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:04)

⁓ wow, that’d be a shock culturally of arriving there.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (12:09)

Yeah, yeah. And a number of my friends had said, but what if you don’t like it? And I said, well, I’ll go and do something else. And the advantage of having a skills base of nursing was you do have opportunities to go and do other things. So that’s all fine. But for me, you should never underestimate the skill base that you’ve actually got. Like if, you know, what got you there will get you to somewhere else.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (12:35)

That’s a brilliant point of self-belief that a lot of people don’t have. So your take on that is if it all goes to mud, there’s another opportunity around the corner. Yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (12:50)

Yeah, yeah. mean, so many people don’t take a role because they go, but what if I don’t like it? Or what if it doesn’t work for me? You’re not signing up for life. Like if you should give it a red hot crack and you should definitely do it for a good 12 months or more to see unless it’s really catastrophic or toxic, but you should give it a really good run. And if it doesn’t work, then go and do something else.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:07)

Yeah, great advice.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (13:16)

You’re not there. It’s not like you know, folks who used to get a job that would take them all the way through. So take the opportunity to come up and to see what happens.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (13:25)

Brilliant. So you’ve done quite a few pivots along the way, Di, from leadership to big infrastructure roles with these hospital builds. What have those shifts taught you about leadership and risk?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (13:39)

⁓ When I first started my career, ⁓ I was deciding between whether I was going to be a nurse or I was going to be a home economics teacher, which I just started out now. ⁓ And I came from a family of nurses, so I was probably fairly destined that I was going to be a nurse. ⁓ As I said before, I knew what I didn’t want to do. I didn’t want to do midwifery and I didn’t want to be a matron, which shows how long ago I trained.

 

⁓ So I was very clear about what I didn’t want to do and when I had my twins I had this idealistic view that I would never have to work again, that I would go and have children and I would swan around and do whatever I don’t know what

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (14:18)

So you weren’t ambitious at that point or had you just been… Okay.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (14:24)

I think I just thought, no, no, I’ve done that. I’ve had the children. Twins is pretty full on. I’ll do all of that stuff and be a mum. I don’t know why. I’m not a parents and citizens sort of, you know, social mum group type of a girl. But I thought about that. But then I thought, I’ve now worked out I’ve done 27 roles in my time. So I figured that when interest rates went to 18 % and my husband’s business wasn’t doing much,

 

that one of us had to make a move. So I went back to work, which is when I then got the opportunity for ICU. ⁓ But I think it’s not necessary. I haven’t been one of those that said, I’m here and now I want to be there. That was never me. I’ve got a number of friends who’ve been very clear about that. Like they wanted to do midwifery and then they wanted to do something else and that was all fine. For me, it was more, we’ll just see what happens.

 

And I think I had a real advantage working in regional centres. Working away from metropolitan areas gives you so many more opportunities than you necessarily get when you work in the Metro, especially in health care.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (15:33)

And I guess there’s a talent pool who’s not prepared to move to those locations too.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (15:39)

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting when those areas are sort of staff and say, would you like to go out there? They oh no, I couldn’t do that. So you do get a lot of opportunities to step forward and step up. And one of the opportunities for me was I had only been at Kalgoorlie for five months and I was asked to go and represent 22 rural health services to negotiate the nurses wage case on behalf of rural health. And I said to them, are you sure you’ve got the right person? I’ve only just got here.

 

And they said, well, you’re the perfect person because you’re not tainted by anything that’s gone on before. And it’s like, ⁓ OK. And again, they said, it’s about a six week process. ⁓ It wasn’t. It was six months. And then it took about two years to roll it out. But it gave me the opportunity to now go and negotiate and sit at the table on behalf of the Director General of Health and represent 22 rural health services. Like, I would never have thought I would be doing

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (16:35)

Yeah, but the marketplace knew you were capable. What’s coming through, Di, is you’ve been headhunted on multiple occasions based on proving yourself in ⁓ the positions you’ve undertaken.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (16:48)

Yeah, and you don’t think of it like that at the time. Like when they said to do it and go to Perth, I went to Perth 35 times in 12 months to do these negotiations. But as a result of doing that, I then got a role in Perth. I then eventually met my husband to a friend I met at the hotel I stayed at.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (17:05)

was

 

going to say, how’d you have time? Fortunately he was at the hotel.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (17:09)

Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, but then the opportunities just then open up to be able to roll it out and then go and see all of West Australia ⁓ and visit sites and see them and develop strategies and processes that are now embedded in WA Health for things. But that was never something you could have even envisaged to do it. And then because of the work that I did, the Director General for WA Health,

 

invited me into his office and he said, I need to talk to about what’s happened. And I thought I’d done something wrong. And he said, I’d like to congratulate you on how well you’ve negotiated for the rural health services. The general managers are really happy. And I would like to thank you by sending you to a conference and I’d like to send you to Edinburgh. And I thought, it’s not Edinburgh, it’s WA. What? And he goes, no, no, no, in Scotland to attend a CEO conference on my behalf to go and do it. And it’s like,

 

wow. And I got to that, the other lady got sent up the coast to a site, so the Metro, so I felt very privileged. But it wasn’t something you could plan to do. But if you’re prepared to say yes when the opportunity comes up and providing it sort of within, you know, sounds reasonable or semi reasonable, you just don’t know where that will take you. Like that changed my whole pivot and direction of what I’m doing right now.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (18:33)

Just that point alone, being prepared to say yes and take a chance and back yourself. mean, let’s pause on that for a moment, Di. You were speaking to some of the up and coming executives who might listen to this Podcast for inspiration. What would you say to them about that?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (18:52)

Never say never. And if somebody says something to you about, would you consider this? And you go, if inside you’re going, no, I couldn’t possibly do that. I don’t have those skills or whatnot. Don’t say that. Say to them, could I just ask you, what do you see in me that clearly I don’t see in me that makes you think I can do this role? And then you may find something about yourself that you’re not even aware of or that you, that

 

makes you suitable for this role.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (19:24)

And if I listen to what you’re saying and put my executive search hat on, I mean, you’re not out there overselling yourself. You’re simply out there delivering and your performance is being recognised. But you are still probably one of the most humble people sitting on the other side of the interview table, given all the achievements you’ve had, which is fantastic. Di, you’ve been the first to achieve

 

global sustainability milestones in the work that you’ve done. What does it take to keep breaking new ground in sectors that traditionally do resist change?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (20:02)

I think it’s really important that you have a really clear direction in your head. So you need to know what your purpose is and where you’re going. You may not necessarily know how you’re going to get there, but you need to have that clarity around where you’re going. Because if you’re leading a team in this process, then you need to be able to articulate to them what it is you’re doing so that they can go with you. Because otherwise they’re sitting there going, well, I don’t know.

 

I don’t know what you’re trying to say or what you’re trying to do. So I think it’s important that you can articulate that. You shouldn’t ask anyone to do anything that you won’t do yourself. ⁓ And for me, that’s always been really important. I’m happy to sit down and write frameworks and do structures and get it all set up and then talk to people about how we do it. But I will never get someone to do something that I haven’t done. ⁓ When we did the Green and Social Finance Framework at the time,

 

There’s this group called the Asia Pacific Loan Managers Association, very exciting group of people who write these loan, social loan principles. And when they had written them, one came out in, the green ones came out in April 21 and the social principles came out in May. And we just, one of my board directors asked you if we could do this particular loan. So we were using a commercial advisor at the time and it became apparent early

 

that they’d done a bit on green loans, but they hadn’t actually done a green and social loan. So I had a choice that we could either keep getting all the information and handing it to them and then they would put it in a PowerPoint and give it back to me or I could do it myself. And I don’t come from a finance background, clearly. So I decided that it was silly me briefing them to give them me something back that I’d already written. So I sat down and wrote a green and social finance framework on the floor of my apartment.

 

over two nights and then gave it to the board and gave it to our commercial advisors and said, this is what I think we need to do. And then we got it assessed. So you have to actually get an assurance piece done by an independent assurance group, which we did. And they made some minor changes to it. And then we adopted it. And then you put it out to the market. This was mid COVID. So going to the market to do a refinance to start with in COVID was insane.

 

But we went to the market not knowing whether we would get the acceptance of what we were putting out there and we were doubly subscribed. So we had over $4 billion on the table and that’s been publicly noted to us on a secret. That’s pretty cool position to be in when you need 2.2 to be able to say, right, we do have it and the green and social finance framework is what drew people in because it was new and it was different.

 

and we committed that we would meet certain criteria to meet the loan. ⁓ But if somebody had asked me that six months before that, I would have never thought I could do that. Like, just never.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:04)

However, this thread of stepping up and doing something that you hadn’t done before and stepping out of your comfort zone plays all the way through your career.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (23:16)

Yeah, it’s a level of craziness I think that has been consistently…

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (23:19)

I’ll call it a level of confidence, Di, but maybe crazy given the scope and the amount that you’ve tacked on. So I am talking with Di Mantell, leadership powerhouse in the healthcare sector, and stay with us because coming up we’re going to talk about visibility, ageing and owning your next chapter.

 

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So, Di, you’ve said leadership’s got no expiry date, but you and I both know that society is telling women, particularly us women over 50, that visibility kind of begins to fade with age. albeit I’m not sure that that necessarily applies to you and I when you take a look at us. But that being said, Have you ever felt that pressure personally?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (24:22)

Yeah, I was actually told I was too young for one of my early roles and they said, no, no, you’re not experienced enough to go and do that. So ⁓ from very early on, I’d had that. ⁓ So I haven’t been told that I’m too old for doing the things, but I’m very well aware that women don’t talk about their age. So ⁓ they don’t.

 

I don’t personally go, So I’m 60 plus GST. I’m very happy and proud of that. But we, yeah, but We don’t, and we don’t tend to talk about that a lot. But if you ask a man, you never ever hear anyone when somebody, when a man is applying for something about what their age, it just is never ever in the conversation. And I think that’s okay, but I don’t know why women obsess about it. And I know that at times we are judged much more harshly.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (24:54)

You and I both.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (25:18)

⁓ in lots of professions for that. And I just think it has no role. For me, you are either good enough to do the role or you are not. That’s it. ⁓ I don’t care whether you’re black, blue, green, what your religious status is, sexual ⁓ favors, whatever. I don’t care about any of that. I only care that you’re good enough to do the role. The technical skills and the cultural fit are what works for me when I’m looking for someone for a role.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (25:47)

of that of the female doubt and questioning the age bit, do you think we put upon ourselves versus society?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (25:58)

A lot, a lot. I think, ⁓ you know, if you put two or three males up against two or three females in any picture and whatnot, you will see who’s, you know, worked really hard to be where they are and what they look like. ⁓ But I think we are very quick to…

 

denigrate what we’ve done or say that you know we’re not good enough or play down and you know there’s that story that’s gone around for long time about you know if you look at a job description women see all the things they haven’t done and men find two things and know that it’s true.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (26:29)

I mean it’s been going around a long time but it’s absolutely true.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (26:33)

Yeah, and that victim mentality is definitely alive and well. I did a webinar earlier this year for a group that was about 350 people, of which about 80 % were female. And the number of people who commented on there about, oh my gosh, thank you so much for giving me things to talk about and be confident in what I’m doing. I’ve never felt like that before. I always felt that I wasn’t good enough. And it’s like, why? Why are we so harsh on ourselves about it?

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (27:03)

Why do you think that is? What do you think it is? Is it conditioning? Upbringing?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (27:09)

I think, yeah, I think part of its conditioning, I think it’s part of the way that people are represented in the media. I think, you know, there’s a lot of, ⁓ there’s a lot of movies and ⁓ social media things out there that definitely play to that. And I think while ever we don’t say it’s not okay, we’re adding to that. So for me, I’ve never thought it like that. ⁓ I’m clearly not a conforming person necessarily, but

 

But I don’t consider that I’m actually a rogue or really radical. It’s just, I don’t accept that that’s how you have to be. So, ⁓ and it is a choice, but there are a lot of people who definitely have a victim mentality and want someone else to keep telling them they’re okay. That’s not someone else’s job. You have to sort that out for yourself. You have to decide what your standards are, what matters to you, what your values are, and what you will tolerate.

 

And if you want to sit there and be sad in the corner and think the world as you were living, then that’s entirely up to you. But you won’t get opportunities that are out there if you’re prepared to step forward. But I don’t understand it, but I can’t.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:17)

Yeah, and if you think back to your point about film and we’ll call it Hollywood, not that it’s necessarily Hollywood, but there were lots of subservient role models of women played out on the screens when you and I were growing up, but there equally today is some fantastic ⁓ films and series and footage out there of women being the powerhouse and the go-getters and dynamic and we will see that.

 

play out in society and how women present without question because you can see it, you can believe it and you think you can do it.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (28:53)

Absolutely, absolutely.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (28:55)

So with that in mind, What’s your advice to women in midlife who do feel invisible or underestimated, be it professionally or personally?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (29:06)

I think it’s about being brave. If you look at all of the things that have got you to where you are right now, and you toed up what those skills are and what those roles are and what the things that you have achieved both personally and professionally, most people are pretty special. And you’ve got the skills and you’ve got the ability to do things. You have to decide that you are going to take that next step and no one else can do that for you. You need to be brave.

 

And If you step forward and you don’t like what it is, well next time maybe you step sideways or maybe you step in a different direction. But it’s not, you can’t sit there and wait. The world doesn’t know you were living. And it’s important for you to take the skills that you’ve got. Be a role model for the people around you, whether it’s your children or your grandchildren or your nieces or your friends or whatever. People are looking for good role models of people that will step up and…

 

and show the skills that are important for people to thrive and be good members of community. You need to find your tribe and it may be a small tribe or it might be a really big tribe, but find people that are like-minded. And it can be in your friend group or your local community, or it can be through podcasts like yours. This is so powerful for people to get confidence and learn new skills about what is out there and what you can and can’t do.

 

The number of amazing people that you interview, there will be somebody in there that you find aligns with what you want to do. Someone for… Yeah, so use those skills. And also, if you’re working in an organisation now and you’ve been sitting in the same little role and you want to do something else, tell your boss what you want to do. Because if you’ve set a little period and they don’t know and you’ve never put your hand up for an acting role or a second man or whatever,

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (30:39)

everybody it’s such a mix.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (31:02)

They don’t have ESP. Lots of bosses are really clever, but they won’t necessarily think that you want that if you’ve never told them. So put your hand up and say, next time there’s an opportunity, I’d really like to do that. And they might be really surprised and go, that’s amazing. I never knew that’s what you wanted to do. But use those opportunities to step out of your comfort zone and find something different that might inspire you.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (31:27)

They

 

are all such invaluable points, Di, and I love every one of those. So coming back to you for a moment, when you look back and in fact when you look forward at the legacy you want to leave in leadership and in life, what might that be?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (31:45)

First of no one’s ever asked me that before, so the great question. I want to be a really good role model for my children and my grandchildren. I have got a powerhouse granddaughter. I’ve got three gorgeous grandsons as well, but I have a powerhouse granddaughter and I want her to really know that the sky’s limit for her. She’s named, her second name is after my mum and my mum is definitely in this little lady, so she will be a powerhouse.

 

I want to, I really, really hope that, ⁓ so I’m finishing my CEO role at the end of this year and I’m moving to do more board roles and keynote speaking and mentoring. Yes, very exciting, very exciting next phase. I’m hopeful that the culture that I have embedded in this organisation outlives me. ⁓ I think we’ve worked very hard to have a really well respected organisation that does a lot of really good things.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (32:25)

stick stick.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (32:42)

contractually for what we need to deliver, but also within the community that we serve. So for me, that’s really, really important. And I hope people just see my passion ⁓ and maybe that that inspires someone else to want to do things. I’ve got a lot of things that I still want to do. ⁓ And for me, being passionate and really caring about the things that I believe in are really important. So hopefully that will continue.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (33:09)

Fantastic. So if I sum that up, there’s another young Dai mental coming through in the next generation with a dose of grandma, which is clearly where you got some of your spirit and drive from being your mother. And without doubt, the legacy that you’ve left behind in the role that you’re stepping away from will endure because that’s what good leadership does. So well done, Dai.

 

As we come to a close, my final question that I would love you to respond to today, Di, and you’ve mentored countless women along the way, particularly in the industry in which you’ve specialised and through mentor walks and leadership programs and going forward you will in your board roles. What do you see that is holding women back so significantly today and how do we change it?

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (34:10)

⁓ I think it goes back to being brave. think it’s interesting. I went to mental walks this morning. So we met Bright and Shiny this morning here in Adelaide. ⁓ And all of these women were very accomplished people and whatnot. And a lot of it ⁓ is just about being brave. They’ve got the positions that they have because they are good and they’ve earned them. So that’s why they are where they are.

 

What you choose to do next is now a decision that you need to make and that’s a matter of either saying, no this is it, I’m happy to plateau out here and this works for me and I’ve got my dream job.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:48)

And it’s okay, yeah.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (34:50)

Yeah, absolutely. And not everyone wants to be a high achiever. I mean, that’s perfect.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (34:55)

It gets pointier at the top, Di. There’s not enough room for everybody to be there.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (35:00)

If you want to be the person who runs the school canteen or the community groups or the things, they are all important ⁓ in our organisations and in our communities. But for me, if you want to go and step forward, the only thing holding you back is you. You’ve got access to a large amount of skills. Places like LinkedIn have amazing opportunities for leveraging and learning off really clever, intelligent people.

 

If you don’t put your hand up and tell people you want to do things, then people won’t know. And you need to take those opportunities. And like I said before, if you take it and you don’t like it, go and do something else. That’s okay. But you are in control of your next step.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (35:46)

Beautiful. And it is why I am taking ownership of the hashtag Never Assume because if you don’t try, you don’t step forward, you don’t put yourself out there, you just might never know. that’s great. That’s great, Di. So heading into the world of board roles, I imagine that’s still going to be a meaty ⁓ part of your career journey because I can’t see you sitting back and

 

and watching the water every day.

 

DI MANTELL [Guest] (36:21)

Absolutely not. No, no, I could think of nothing worse than not being able to give back. ⁓ And board work for me is a real opportunity to take all the things I’ve learned up until now and be able to give back in a really positive way. ⁓ The Silver Chain Board I’m on currently and the Australasian College of Health Service Management State Council, which is a mini board, are both amazing opportunities to continue to make a difference. And so for me, reaching out

 

further to do more of those types of roles in infrastructure or in sport or whatever comes around. I think the skills I’ve got I would really like to be able to use them to give back and hopefully make a difference for some other organisations.

 

DI GILLETT [Podcast Host] (37:04)

the job ad, So we’ve got that bit out of the way. well done. If anybody is looking for a damn dynamic CEO with C-suite leadership and specialisation in infrastructure development, Di is your woman. So well done, Di. Di, thank you so much for joining me on the Podcast. It’s such an inspirational story of a career of somebody who probably thought they were going to spend their life being a

 

a home mum to being such an inspirational CEO and leader and with a fabulous board career in front of you. And I know Dai is active on LinkedIn, so if you’re looking to get in touch with Dai or have got a board opportunity that you’d like to talk to her about, I know that you’ll be able to find Dai there. And equally, follow me on the socials and I too spend a fair bit of time on LinkedIn. So if you want to learn about what I’m

 

doing. am also there and I publish a weekly newsletter now, Power of Reinvention. Please be sure to follow the Podcast and share this episode because Dai’s career experience and leadership advice is invaluable. Until next time.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

 

Find Di Mantell at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/di-mantell/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

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From Setback To Comeback

From Setback To Comeback

by | Nov 10, 2025 | Burnout, Female Empowerment, Mindfulness, Podcast For Women

What happens when the drive that makes you great becomes the force that brings you undone?

Life coach, bestselling author and keynote speaker Shannah Kennedy joins me, Di Gillett on the Power Of Women Podcast to explore the thin line between ambition and burnout, and why recovery, identity and self-awareness are now critical skills for high-performing women.

From managing elite athletes to living at full throttle, Shannah’s story is a reminder that setbacks can be the start of your greatest comeback. If you’re willing to do the inner work.

 

In this episode, you’ll hear:

➜ Why “Who are you without your job?” is the most confronting (and necessary) question you can ask.

➜ How to rebuild your identity beyond titles and achievements.

➜ The difference between ambition and overachievement.

➜ Why women in midlife face “the perfect storm” — and how to plan your way through it.

➜ Daily rituals for resilience: mindfulness, breathwork and boundaries.

 

Shannah said:

“Setbacks are inevitable.”

“The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body.”

“Treat yourself like a high-performing human because that’s what you are.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:02)

Well the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – Host (00:09)

We’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (00:29)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curve ball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

 

we go into, you know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or move forward with your health. We need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world.

 

The line between ambition and breakdown is when you stop listening to your body. The question is never why me, but more who will I become because of this? A really important question to be asking ourselves in change. Women in midlife are facing the perfect storm. Without a plan, it can break you, and with a plan, it can make you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (01:57)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome back to the POWER OF WOMEN podcast. What I love about this platform is the opportunity to showcase and celebrate the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And we talk resilience, reinvention and the moments that don’t make the headlines but in fact should.

 

So the conversation today is a really important one and I know this is going to resonate with so many of you listening because today we’re going to explore how to turn setbacks into comebacks. And joining me to discuss this and how we approach it is one of Australia’s most respected life coaches, a bestselling author, and we’ve got a couple of the books on the table with us today, keynote speaker,

 

and mentor to athletes, CEOs and high performers. Shannah Kennedy, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (02:57)

Thank you for having me. It’s beautiful to be here.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (03:00)

Shannah, before we start, I’d like to get into a little bit of your origin story because I think you’ve had your own setback that really framed what your comeback would be. Could we start there? Because you had a high-flying career as a sports manager and somewhere along the line you hit the wall. What happened?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (03:24)

I certainly did. I don’t know if any of the listeners out there have married their job before, but that’s what I did. ⁓ I was in my 20s. I had the most incredible job. was the full Jerry Maguire job. You know, there was athletes. I was working for a wonderful brand. My job was to buy and sell the athletes, to do all the sponsorship deals.

 

Sport is always on the weekend, so great. Every weekend was full, flying around watching sporting events, but never took any time off. So basically, full-time marriage into the job, loved it. Had a lot of friends because I had lot of free passes to places. I had a lot of free things to give away and a lot of money to give away. So my life was really superficial.

 

although I didn’t see that at the time, it was just full excitement. Sort of like if you are an elite athlete, things aren’t quite normal. And anyway, I just did not see the warning signs. I did not want to see the warning signs. So, you know, when your body starts to talk to you and you get the headache, you get the sore bones, you’ve got to force yourself to go to work a little bit.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (04:38)

Explain it away though, that’s the trouble.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (04:41)

Yeah,

 

you do. You create great stories to support yourself and your sabotaging lifestyle. I was also trying to do triathlons myself. I was trying to have relationships and everything was just crumbling around me until one day I just couldn’t get up. I actually could not get through the concrete. And I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue and that was 30 years ago.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (05:08)

Yeah, and we don’t talk about that a lot, but it was something that so many people hit through HSC studies and those sorts of things. So how long did that…

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:21)

That

 

was full adrenal burnout. That was a year in bed, a year. A year in bed. Not able to drive, can’t concentrate, can’t turn the lights on, it hurts my eyes. Couldn’t turn the radio on or the TV on because it would hurt my ears. Everything was just fried. Think of everything being fried. Then the huge realisation was, who am I without my job? There was no emails. There was no phone calls.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (05:26)

Yeah

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (05:49)

There was nothing. There was silence. The company were great. They held my job. But it was a horrible realization that I actually hadn’t created a person who went to work. I just created my title. So I was actually lying there thinking of our elite athletes and what happens to them when they go from hero to zero, sometimes overnight, you know, when they do their ACL or they get dropped from the team or.

 

Who is Dusty Martin without Richmond Football Club?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (06:20)

Nobody

 

seems to care about the person, they care about what impact it has on them as a fan.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (06:26)

Exactly. But we need to be a person first who plays football for that team or goes to that job and then gets off that ride and is still a full person. So it was a real gift in the end because I actually in that time really thought about all of the athletes that I had worked with. I saw all of the destruction post sport, which nobody cared about back then because it was the early 2000s.

 

Well-being wasn’t a word, mental health was not a word. It was go hard or go home. So I actually got myself a coach ⁓ to coach me back to unlearn all of my bad habits, to unlearn the I need to use hard work as a badge of honour and relearn a much more sustainable way.

 

of being a high performer without the burnout and having a life as well. So it’s a very exciting time, even though very challenging, incredibly painful chronic fatigue. Your bones are like broken. It feels like you have had the biggest night on the town.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:27)

What does it feel like?

 

without the fun.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:34)

without any fun. It’s like the worst hangover but also your bones feel like they’ve been punched so it feels bruised so it’s extremely painful. I don’t think people talk about that very much. It’s not just I’m a bit tired, So that ended up in a big depression because I actually didn’t know who I was.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (07:49)

No, it’s more than that.

 

You lost your identity.

 

Ouch.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (07:59)

Yeah, at 30. At 30. That’s early. That’s early to have a crisis like that.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

Indeed it

 

  1. And that overachievement junkie pursuit which you would have had, and you would have been surrounded by people with that because they were high performers and killer instincts and strive to win and wins the only thing. And you would have had it in your DNA because you were competitive sporting wise in your own right.

 

So how much of it was about being an overachievement junkie and how often do you see that in the people that you coach now?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (08:42)

Well, I still see it in myself. I think it is. And I think if you are a driven woman and you have that achievement, you know, I’m not happy unless I’m achieving sort of mentality, it doesn’t go away, but you can make a healthier version of it.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:00)

That was going to be my question because what makes you great is what brings you undone. So how do you balance that?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:06)

There’s

 

a balancing act. So now my achievement is not, did I sell 10,000 books yesterday? Although that’s very nice. It is, what did you do to care for the asset which is yourself? So that she doesn’t burn out, so that she does have balance. Did you set a boundary? Did you do your breath work? Did you do the three M’s to start your day, which is make my bed, move my body, mindfully breathe? Do the pacing stuff.

 

Did I do three breaths every time I wash my hands today? That paces me through the day so I don’t burn.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:43)

You’re that, you’re doing that every day. And I did that before we started recording this morning. So I did the three, four, five breathing just to centre.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (09:45)

Yeah,

 

center. So that’s athlete mentality. I mean we watch it all the time. We’ve just watched the grand final. We see people breathing. We see Olympians just preparing themselves with breath. Breath is your first skill to go and really master. So I see it as the Gatorade stations in the marathon of the day. So every time you do that conscious breathing you ⁓ just give yourself a moment to ground yourself.

 

That’s like stopping at the Gatorade station before you carry on for the next 5k’s of the day. I teach a lot of my clients, especially women, how to pace themselves because they are trying to do everything all at the same time.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:40)

And particularly midlife women because that sandwich generation piece of you’re managing all ends of the spectrum. Yes. Coming up behind you, those who’ve gone before you.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (10:51)

Yes, and we’re in a crisis at the moment because women have never been in this position before. We’re actually at the top of our careers in our mid-50s. We’ve really got to partner. We’ve developed incredible businesses. Unfortunately, we had kids later, so our kids are still at home. They haven’t gone. And our parents are still with us because they’re living longer. And at the same time, our body is changing.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:12)

Incinerate

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:19)

It’s a perfect storm and it hasn’t been there in any other generation. Because the generations before, the grandparents didn’t live as long. The kids moved out at 20. Now they’re staying home. ⁓ And by the time you’re in menopause, your career was sort of finished. So we’re in really uncharted waters. Yeah, it’s an interesting But I think it’s exciting.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (11:41)

So with that in mind, are the majority of your female clients midlife women?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (11:49)

No, I have women, men, I have retiring men, retiring women in their 60s, 70s. I have young people in their 20s starting. And everyone wants a plan.

 

They haven’t got a plan. So if you haven’t got a plan, it’s like driving around the roundabout. When you have a plan, it’s like, we know which direction we’re driving on the GPS. So even if it’s a short-term plan, the brain is really comfortable as soon as it knows where it’s going. So we do need a plan, which we plan in pencil, because there’s always change. We need to get comfortable with change. ⁓ And when you do have that plan in pencil, you can enjoy the ride.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (12:31)

That point about pencil is a fascinating one because I still keep a day book as a running sheet of what I’ve got to do. ⁓ And I love writing. I have a creative style of writing that comes from my fashion design background and I physically like writing. And for years I always used a beautiful Lamy pencil because I could

 

change it and it’s only in recent years that I’ve actually moved into writing with a rollable pen and I wonder whether there’s a conscious switch in going from pencil can change it to feeling clear enough that I’m going to put it down in pen and stick with it.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (13:18)

think pen is amazing. I think pencil is for long term. So if we’re thinking about your 10 year older version of yourself, which is your role model, of course, is you, your best friend in 10 years time. You put that age to it, so I’m 55, so I’d be 65. So I would be planning in pencil because I don’t know what curve ball is coming my way. But I’m planning in pencil on, you know, what are the life experiences that I want.

 

What experiences do I want with my husband, with my kids, with my friends, all different ones? I might be planning in how I want to feel. More agile, stronger. Okay, what can I do today? Where do I want to be financially so I know what I need to do today and why I’m not going to go to the sale and buy some more towels because we’ve got enough towels just because I really like them or more stationary because I love stationary. I’m serving her.

 

I am serving her, I’m working for her, that’s my life plan. So I know why I make decisions today is for her because I don’t feel like going for a walk when it’s cold and windy here in Melbourne, but I’ll get up and go for her because she’s saying thank you, keep moving, keep moving or get to yoga, I want you to be agile. So I have this trainer in my brain who is to me

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:37)

speaks to you in third

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (14:40)

from my life plan because this is how I want to feel and this is what I want to experience and this is what I want to learn.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:50)

And I’m thinking what you said, and I think it was after turning 60 that I probably went from pencil to rollable pen. I wonder whether there was something in that.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:02)

Well, deep confidence comes when we know which way we’re going and how we want to feel and what we want to experience. That’s confidence. Because you’re living your plan, not somebody else’s plan.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (15:14)

I think I just got analysed on the

 

So you talked about your own setback being a gift and it was a turning point for you. So for those listening who are in the middle of a hiccup or a setback, how can they start to see the hidden opportunities in what feels like a crisis?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (15:45)

It always feels like a crisis. It’s like you just fell off your bike. It’s a crisis. It hurts. It’s horrible. You sit there. Your confidence is completely stripped and you’re sitting in the gutter and it’s a horrible place to be. And the first thing we need to do is breathe. The first thing you do to a child is catch your breath.

 

We’re not going to talk about it yet. We’re going to catch your breath. Ground yourself. Okay, now we’re going to slowly stand up and then we’re going to make a plan and we’re going to jump back on the bike. It’s the same. We need to go through a beautiful process and not just react. We need to ground ourselves first. We need to think about how that felt.

 

What am I learning from this? And the learning might not come till later. Certainly in the middle of chronic fatigue, I did not think it was a gift. But it opened doors for me that I would never have seen. It’s also allowed me, or I have chosen to see it as the gift to live wide awake and with intention. So mindfulness, breath work, all of those soft skills, which I did not possess before I had to bring in, and they became the guide.

 

Like taste the coffee. I’m so happy I have a bed with a doona. You know, I’ve got a car that works. Let’s go down to the little things. And so I actually feel like I’ve had a very grateful life because I’ve focused on the small things.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (17:12)

What would be the difference do you think had you not hit the wall if you’d kept going?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (17:17)

Well, it isn’t until you lose everything.

 

friends, your so-called friends, your identity, your body, that you appreciate small things. So I think if I hadn’t I would still be the A-type overachieving junkie who probably would have blown up her marriage and not felt anything and not been present for her children or maybe not pivoted the right way and just reacted all the way along like a bouncy ball and probably got to midlife ready for a massive crisis.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (17:49)

And that’s probably what we see with a lot of these relationships and characters who blow up. You know, it’s the guy going and getting the sports car. It’s the marriage breaking up at 50 when you think you should just be settling in and starting to plan post-children and enjoy yourself. It’s all of those things coming to that crux.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (18:15)

It’s

 

always the people who haven’t done any work on themselves. So they have been addicted to achievement the whole way through. They have maybe got to partner or had a great career, but everything around them.

 

is incredibly unstable. again, they put all of their eggs into their title and didn’t build the human. And that’s why we need a life plan, which brings in a career plan and a financial plan and a health plan, but it’s actually your life. How do you want it to unfold? Get in the driver’s seat and out of the passenger seat. So a lot of them, I think, have just been maybe just too one-eyed and it’s just life is not like that.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (18:57)

I think that’s right. Well coming up, what to do when setbacks hit and how to manage your comeback. If you’re loving the POWER OF WOMEN podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

Shannah, before we went to a break, you made a really interesting point. You said we put all of our energy into our title and not into us as a human. How prevalent is that in the marketplace?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (19:34)

enormous because that’s where a lot of women value themselves and their confidence. They don’t value the small things, they only value the title. And when the title is taken away, what’s left? We need to have built the human being who gets on the ride, whether that be at Macquarie Bank or

 

the business that they’ve built, it doesn’t matter what it is, but you need to be able to step off and be the human. It’s just a ride. It’s just a ride in the playground, your job.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:06)

So how do you take somebody on that journey to draw the distinction? Because if I’m an achievement junkie and my title of partner has been the pinnacle of my career, I’m there, it defines me. How do you encourage me to think of me as an individual in the bigger picture?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (20:27)

Well, the first thing is who are you without your job? And if you can’t answer that, it’s pretty confronting. So that’s when they say, okay, I’m open to working on it now, because they can’t answer that one question. And it’s a really important question is to know who you are and what’s important to you outside of your job. And what are you doing to feed that consciously, consciously?

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:52)

So we’ve had a setback and setbacks are inevitable. They come in all forms. It could be we’ve been made redundant, our marriage or relationship has fallen over. We’ve had a health episode that’s knocked us sideways that we didn’t see coming or there’s been a loss of somebody in our world. What’s the non-negotiables in a recovery plan to come back from one of those setbacks?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (21:20)

Well, that’s why I wrote Plan B. Because it was about navigating and embracing change. And after 20 years of coaching people through change, I thought, I’m just going to put it into a simple format for people. For what happens in your brain is we get the curve ball, it comes, it’s lemons, it hurts, it’s falling off your bike, it’s the redundancy, it’s, ⁓ you know, I had a cancer diagnosis, ⁓ my partner passed away, or my…

 

mother passed away or it just can be a range of things you know a business partner blindsided you. The first thing that we have to do is just respond and we can’t respond until we’ve taken a breath. We’ve acknowledged all of our feelings. We’ve created a narrative that works for us to tell other people when other people corner us what happened with your marriage you know.

 

You want to shut that down pretty quickly because that goes into a whole rabbit hole. So you have to have your elevator pitch ready. ⁓ And then you just respond with grace. You just respond with grace. Then you need to recover. So we need to take the time to recover. We need to think about,

 

What are the self-care things that I need to do to just refuel my tank, whether it be physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? We need to take a little time, a little gap, instead of just jumping straight back on the bike, a little gap to…

 

DI GILLETT – Host (22:48)

Achievement

 

junkies. So how do you encourage me not to go? I’m just going to get back into it and keep busy.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (22:55)

So you need to do the work on yourself first and when you have a big curveball, if you’ve gone through a divorce or a redundancy, you have fallen flat on your bottom and you really need to do the work. And so all of a sudden the achievement junkie is so shocked at what just happened that they come to people like me and say, okay, teach me.

 

So that’s where we start. And once we’ve done a bit of recovery and we’ve had a bit of time off and we’ve just settled ourselves, we go into, know, what are your values? Let’s build the human now from the ground up so that you can jump back on and go and get another great job or enter another relationship or…

 

move forward with your health, ⁓ we need to reset yourself. So where are the boundaries? What are the goals? What are the habits that are non-negotiable for you now moving forward that really serve your own set of values? And then you need to say yes to the world. Yes, let’s radiate again. Let’s come, jump on the bike. Let’s take off again and have another go. But there’s quite a process to get there. And the people that don’t go through those stages,

 

⁓ always fall again and again and again.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:15)

And is that what your personal coach took you through when you hit the wall? And how long do you think the reset took?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (24:19)

Mmm, 100%.

 

I would say at least two years. And then I studied coaching to open my own business to coach athletes into retirement. That was before anyone had heard of a life coach. So think I was one of the first qualified ones in Melbourne 25 years ago. And it started with athletes, then it went into business athletes, I call them, and then life athletes.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:51)

And I get that I come from a family of elite athletes and my brother was an elite athlete and he tragically lost his wife Amy Gillett when the Australian cycling team was struck by a car in Germany. Why I tell the story in this setting is Simon was still thinking like an elite athlete in his approach of how he was going to manage his grief. And I can remember him.

 

going hard, keeping busy. He was flying here, he was flying there, he wasn’t acknowledging what had happened. And then out of the blue, he got the hiccups. And I don’t mean an occasional hiccup, I mean 24-7. You can’t eat, you can’t drink, you can’t sleep. The hiccupping was constant. And after about five days, he was broken. Absolutely.

 

broken, his body took over. So it’s, isn’t it interesting as to how if you don’t take the decision, the decision like your chronic fatigue for you.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (25:51)

His body took up.

 

Yeah, your body will take over.

 

Absolutely. And the grief cycle is huge. And it can last forever. Forever. doesn’t go away. So I put that in the book as well. we don’t get taught all of this at school. No. We don’t get taught anything at school except get a great ATAR and go to university. And that’s it. Full stop.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (26:24)

Do you

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (26:28)

Yes, 100%. I think they are bringing wellbeing in now, is great. It’s a small introduction. But a lot of these life skills, if you’re not a reader or I suppose now it’s much easier listening to podcasts, you can learn these skills. That was never around before. Nobody talked about all of this before. Grief was shoved under the carpet. Don’t go near that person. ⁓

 

the book was written in COVID, it came to me at two in the morning, like a Jerry Maguire moment, and I just got up and went, know the exact pathway.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:06)

And

 

so Plan B was your first… Number six. But the context.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:08)

book. No, that was number six.

 

The

 

context of it. Yeah, exactly.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:16)

Brilliant. So for a high performer listening to this podcast, what are some really practical strategies for them to prevent the next crash and to build a more sustainable comeback?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:28)

Beautiful. think especially for women who are listening to this, is, you know, we are these incredible human beings. We really are.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:41)

If

 

we don’t say so ourselves.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (27:43)

Yeah,

 

and I’m just going to shout that from the rooftop. We are incredible human beings and we need to protect the ascent. We need to put kid gloves around ourselves a little bit and listen to the body because the body will take over otherwise and things happen to us. So we do need to think about filling the oxygen tank before the mask. We do need to think about if I’m going to be a high performer like an athlete, I need to have high performance recovery.

 

And athletes do. They have incredible recovery protocol. We need to as well. And making that your part of your career is what is my recovery. You know, for me, it’s massage, acupuncture, Chinese herbs. It’s constant. It’s been going for 25 years with no burnout. Raising the family, looking after the parents, writing books, traveling the country, speaking on stages and coaching people.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:39)

No

 

burner.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:42)

None. My recovery is so important to me. So important. I will go and have a 20 minute sleep in the middle of the day.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (28:50)

because you can

 

read when you need to do it and you can respond rather than…

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (28:54)

You know, back-to-back presentations, for example, I will book a boardroom and go and lie down with my legs up the wall for half an hour. Yeah, there you go. treat yourself like a high-performing human because you are one. And high-performing humans and athletes really focus on recovery, just as much as performance. And that could be your rest protocol, your sleep protocol. Your exercise protocol. know, the way you move, the way you hydrate, the way you fuel your body. ⁓

 

treat it like an elite athlete because that’s what you are. You are managing so many different areas in life and everybody needs you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (29:32)

Yeah, that’s great advice. Thank you. What’s the most significant challenge women are facing today and what do we need to do about it?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (29:41)

I think there’s two. One is we’re in the crisis of ⁓ managing so many different areas of life all at the same time. Menopause, adult children, aging parents, top of our career. It’s enormous. I think it’s a huge load that women have never had before. ⁓ The other one is comparisonitis. I think social media.

 

It actually is destroying a lot of women’s confidence where they don’t feel seen, they don’t feel heard. They’re comparing themselves to someone else’s shopfront, which might not be like that behind the scenes. And it’s really affecting their confidence. And so they are feeling a little invisible maybe because they’re distracted. It’s like if you’re in a running race and you’re running perfectly well and you start looking sideways.

 

What happens to your run? You lose momentum. So every time we’re stuck in comparisonitis we’re losing momentum. And I think it’s a huge problem at the moment, especially while we’re in the whole storm of managing everything else.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (30:51)

That’s such an important word. I’ve heard it said recently and it’s relatively new to my vocab, but that is such an incredibly powerful one.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:04)

Comparisonitis

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:07)

hard to say.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (31:08)

Very hard to say, but think of it as an athlete. If an athlete is comparing themselves to somebody else, they’re always going to feel.

 

If they’re focused on themselves and their 10 year plan, they’re going to be excited, motivated, pumped and looking for new people to bring in to surround themselves with the right people. The minute we’re looking sideways we lose all momentum. So I think social media you have to have a boundary on.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:40)

So if I think of that as a term, I think that’s probably a term that derailed me in my 30s and didn’t really stand into my own power until in my 40s because I had a couple of powerful friends around me and I was living vicariously through them, not being true to myself. So I think that is a…

 

The existed long before social media.

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (32:12)

⁓ it did, it did. And that’s why people need a plan. If you have your own vision board up and your own words up on the mirror that really work for you and you are solely committed to enjoying your life, not someone else’s, your life, how can I make today great for myself? What can I be grateful for? What’s my challenge today? Can I breathe today? Did I move my body today? Did I do all the things to serve this asset?

 

Life’s pretty exciting.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (32:43)

Yeah, brilliant. Shannah, thank you I am going to start putting more emphasis on me as the asset rather than me being the last down the line. Good idea. think that’s a must. How can somebody find you if they’re looking to engage yourself?

 

SHANNAH KENNEDY (33:00)

Amazing. Well, that can go to my website, shannahkennedy.com. There’s lots of free resources, free screensavers to keep you on track, free downloadable vision board kits so that you can start your own vision board. Fantastic. All on the website. yes, I do one-on-one coaching. I do workshops for corporates.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (33:13)

and a number of these books that you

 

busy and you’re not burning out. Well done, you. Fantastic. Well, I think that is such ⁓ a truckload of messages that Shannah has delivered today. But I think if we do take the approach of treat ourselves as the asset, rather than the inevitable that can keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, and we’re not breakable, because that would be wrong. are in fact likely to burn out, to

 

to exhaust ourselves, to run ourselves down, and nobody, including ourselves, are going to benefit from that. And I know I have been guilty of it. I’m sure you have been guilty of it. So share this episode with a friend to make sure we treat ourselves as the asset we deserve. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

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Contact Di

 

Find Shannah at:

Website https://shannahkennedy.com/

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannah-kennedy-8a898b1/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/shannahkennedy/

 

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Exclusive Podcast Interview with Jo Tarnawsky: The Cost of Speaking Out

Exclusive Podcast Interview with Jo Tarnawsky: The Cost of Speaking Out

by | Oct 20, 2025 | Bullying, Change Makers, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders

In this exclusive podcast episode on the Power Of Women Podcast, former diplomat and Chief of Staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia Jo Tarnawsky sits down with Di Gillett to share the story that made national headlines ~ and the personal cost of speaking out against workplace toxicity.

From representing Australia across international postings to surviving breast cancer abroad, Jo’s life has been defined by courage, integrity and purpose. But it was her decision to speak out against systemic workplace abuse that would test every one of those qualities.

Through a raw and revealing conversation, Jo explores what happens when the system fails to protect its own, and why finding your people matters more than finding the crowd.

 

You’ll hear:

➜ How Jo’s career in diplomacy prepared her for life’s toughest moments

➜ The story behind her cancer diagnosis and recovery abroad

➜ What really happens when the system lets you down

➜ How to rebuild after workplace trauma

➜ Why speaking out comes with a cost — but silence costs more

➜ What she is doing now.

This is a conversation about courage, purpose and the power of standing up ~ not just for yourself, but for the women who will come after you.

 

Jo said:

Standing up and speaking out comes with a cost – but so does remaining silent.

Finding your people can be a game-changer. You don’t need a large crowd, just the right ones.

Finding your people can be a game-changer. You don’t need a large crowd, just the right ones.

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here👇

JO TARNAWSKY (00:00)

I believe that courage and integrity has never been more important. I think that standing up and speaking out comes with a cost, but so does remaining silent. And I think finding your people can make a world of difference.

 

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

 

Of course, I can’t come back, but all my things are still in my office. And how does the Deputy Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff just disappear with no notice midway through a Tuesday? It just didn’t make any sense.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (00:48)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

 

today’s story is a powerful one and one that in fact did make the headlines in 2025. It’s a conversation about the impact of toxic workplaces,

 

what happens when the system lets you down, the cost of speaking out, but most importantly,

 

how not to let those experiences define you or hold you back.

 

Jo Tarnawsky welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (01:21)

Thank you so much, Di. It’s absolutely wonderful to be here. I’m happy to say I’ve caught a number of your podcasts this year. I think it’s an incredible series. So thank you for doing it.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (01:32)

firstly, I want to say thank you for choosing the Power of Women podcast to be the very first time to talk about your story in a bit more detail publicly, because I know it takes courage to do that, and I am really honored that you’ve trusted us with this today. Before we step into the more challenging part of your recent experience, I would love to hear about your career journey, you’ve held

 

senior roles at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And you have represented Australia across international postings. Can you take us through some of the highlights and some of your proudest moments?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (02:13)

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I’ve been really lucky to have almost two decades of experience working in diplomacy and worked in some incredible places, met some wonderful people, doing some really interesting things. ⁓ I think one of the things about being a diplomat is that ⁓ on any given day you could be wearing multiple hats. You can be an advisor, an event planner. You could be helping someone with a lost passport or a consular issue.

 

You can be writing some kind of geopolitical analysis, meeting with international dignitaries, a whole range of things. ⁓ And, you know, I think it also comes with some challenges. think there’s a public sort of perception of diplomats at cocktail parties and and traveling around. But I’ve got to say that, you know, this

 

There’s a whole lot of other work that goes often unseen behind the scenes. I know, for example, that ⁓ across my experience, ⁓ in addition to, of course, attending cocktail parties, I’ve been deployed to war zones. ⁓ I’ve been held up at gunpoint more than once. I was nearly kidnapped at one point. And a lot of the work that’s done is invisible. ⁓ But of course, it also gives you extraordinary opportunities.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (03:36)

Are you out to shed any light on some of those more challenging moments? Gunpoint and kidnap? is that confidential?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (03:44)

No, In one instance, I was in Zimbabwe during some of the height of the Mugabe era. And I just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time. And I was driving to work. I was there on a short term mission during it was around 2007, 2008, when there was a runoff election. Mugabe had not won the first time around. And I was on my way to the embassy and Mugabe’s

 

⁓ entourage happened to go by and I was front of line and you see it coming, there’s warning sort of motorcycles I pulled over to the side of the road but I just happened to be near where his residence was and so he was going to pass in front of me and so some lovely looking chaps with some very large weapons came right up to where I was sitting in the driver’s seat and held a gun basically to my head ⁓ just to make sure I

 

wasn’t going to take one for humanity basically, and stayed where I was. So that was one of them. And then on another ⁓ incident, ⁓ I was acting High Commissioner in Trinidad and Tobago for a couple of months. A lot of people sort of, again, think of the Caribbean as this, as the beaches and the, you know, they have very romantic notions, but actually Trinidad and Tobago, you can see the coast of Venezuela from there. There’s a run of drugs and

 

all sorts of things that go through that channel. There’s actually like a murder count when I was there on the front pages of the paper. And they just had a huge security crackdown for the Summit of Americas where President Obama and a whole range of other leaders had come in. so crime had sort of stopped or been contained for about two months. And then, of course, once all of that left, it spiked.

 

And again, wrong place, wrong time. And I ended up being somewhere that was subject to an armed robbery for where there was about eight gunmen that held me up. Yeah, that was definitely one of the more traumatizing experiences that I had. And yeah, but I’ve got to say that, you know, I’ve worked a defect with a whole range of people that have had their own experiences and

 

have gone out and done the hard yards and so many people have a story either being deployed to war zones or working through tsunamis or being at embassies that have been attacked. And so it really is sometimes frontline service in the national interest.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (06:23)

Is there professional counselling that is offered to diplomats who’ve experienced such things?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (06:30)

There is now. When I first started back in 2002, I remember being one of the first people called in the middle of the night when the first Bali bombings hit. We were sort of called out of bed. And to be honest, I was a graduate. I thought it was a training, a training sort of event. was nothing on the news. This is before social.

 

it was around 2002, 2003, yeah, 2002 maybe. And so we were called in the middle of the night, early one Sunday morning, even by the time we got to headquarters, the religious programming was still on the news. So it all kind of felt a bit surreal. But then when they flicked the phones on, were people already, there were already online families waiting to get through. And it was real.

 

And it even at that early stage took a little while for counselors to sort of be debriefing after every shift, because you’d have quite, you know, you’d have people that may have lost loved ones or just people who had canceled their holidays. And there was no sort of, couldn’t work out who would be the angst, but you would sometimes be the first person that was speaking to. And so a lot of that confusion or anger was directed at you. And.

 

So they’ve got better, whereas I think there’s now there’s multiple full-time counselors that go out to visit embassies, posts, as we call them, on a regular basis ⁓ to check in. They have people on that. And so it’s got, the system has got a lot better ⁓ in ensuring that sort of support is available to staff.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

So how many years all up did you spend overseas, Jo?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (08:09)

So on and off my first posting, four year, three year posting was in Papua New Guinea. Then I did a series of jobs over several years where it might be deployed somewhere for just a couple of months. So that included places like Iraq, like Zimbabwe, Kenya. I worked on a kidnapping case there, Ethiopia to help VIP visits come in, Trinidad and Tobago, Fiji. There was a whole range of things. And then my very last posting was actually to Italy.

 

where I was acting ambassador for the first six months and then I was deputy ambassador for the next three years. I was also worked out at the World Food Program, the United Nations World Food Program and a couple of the other international organizations. And we were also accredited to Libya, Albania, San Marino, which, you know, also it’s a small embassy And

 

everybody sort of thinks, wow, Italy, how easy it had the highest number of lost and stolen passports there at the time. This is pre-COVID, so it definitely kept us on our toes. But the other thing that happened to me while I was there was I got cancer. so, yes, so it wasn’t all quite ⁓ Prosecco at the Coliseum. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:22)

What

 

do you do when that happens in a foreign country? Do you jump a plane and head home or do you start to deal with it in country?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (09:28)

think it depends on the country. Obviously most of the other places, if I had been there when I had been diagnosed, you would want to come home. But I was a long way from home in a country which did have medical procedures. And to be honest with you, I had never needed anything more than a vaccination. ⁓ And something in my gut just told me they can do the surgery here next Wednesday. And even though there was a few questions around how much would it cost and.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (09:36)

put it home.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (09:58)

Could I come home and all those sorts of things. It was really lucky that I trusted my gut because when they got the tumor out, it was breast cancer and they saw how fast it was running and the type I had tripped. Time is everything. They say that if I had got four to six weeks later, I wouldn’t be here now.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:10)

Time was everything.

 

There’s a lot to be said for intuition.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (10:19)

Yes, there is. of course I just, you never think it’s going to happen to you until it does. And, you know, then you’ve just got to go with it really. And so I had the full dense dose chemo, lost my hair. ⁓ And I think one of the hardest parts of leaving Italy was not the gelato shops on every corner ⁓ and the historic buildings. It was actually leaving my oncologist. Cause you also developed quite a rapport.

 

obviously with somebody you’ve come to know through one of those experiences. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (10:52)

Did you work through the procedure in the chemo or did you take time out completely to recover?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (10:59)

I worked through most of it, not the early stages. DFAT had originally wanted me to come home. And so I was at pains not to be a problem. And I, you know, so what I did was I took off for surgery. I also didn’t know what was coming in hindsight. So by the time I had surgery, no one would talk to me about chemo.

 

And in fact, defat would only sort of sign off on the surgery if there wasn’t mention of it. And if, you know, it didn’t look like I was going to need sort of long-term help. And so it wasn’t until after they got the tumor results that they realized actually you you need chemo and you need it fast. So it’s, then with that, they can tell you exactly when you’re going to start losing your hair. And so I decided that I would go through that and I, and so it’s around day 14 or so that it starts falling out. And, you know, my daughter was only three.

 

She was going through a Rapunzel phase, you know, focusing on getting her through that. And so I waited for my hair to fall out. But actually because of cutbacks in the overseas service, I had actually absorbed another whole full-time role about six months earlier. I was doing two jobs anyway. So what they did was they ended up bringing somebody in on a short-term mission so that I just did one job and they did the other. But then the other thing too was,

 

I was very careful. Exercise was the thing that was absolutely a game changer for me. And so I just worked strict hours. I stuck to my schedule for that. And I think too what was also helpful was having a routine at home. So I pulled back the hours, I pulled back the scope, I wasn’t silly about it, but having some routine brought some normality. I think it also helped me return to the workforce more fully when my treatment ended because

 

It wasn’t I didn’t have this gigantic mountain to cross. I’d kind of kept a little bit in the loop as to what was happening. I mean, that said, anyone who’s been through treatment knows the fatigue, the physical fatigue knocks you off your feet. Once your hair grows, starts growing back after treatment’s finished, everybody thinks it’s over. And to be honest with you, that was one of the hardest experiences was when treatment ended because there was nothing left to fight and you just had to, you know, you were waiting for it to come back.

 

But I think mentally too, like the cognitive impacts aren’t something that people fully appreciate. So I know the second cocktail that I had really did affect like my spelling. I’d always been a great speller. Suddenly I was missing bits and emails. I wouldn’t say it’s like dementia or Alzheimer’s, but there was a moment, you know, where I would look at my daughter. Where I looked at my daughter and knew she was my daughter. I could not remember her name. And so.

 

I had to so I don’t speak Italian very well at all. And part of that was because at the end of that, what I needed to get back up was actually my mother tongue English. I needed to make sure that my spelling and everything that I so that I could build back my life, because I was the primary breadwinner, could get back on track and just sort of picking your battles and sort of working your way back through the fatigue, through the cognitive impact and a lot.

 

you know, and getting back to a place where eventually, as we know, became chief of staff to the deputy prime minister. And that was a real test. How far have I come? Because you really everything in the kit and that, and, know, and I, did, I loved it. I loved that job. and I had the energy and all of that. And it showed how far I had come. Like it was about five years later.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (14:23)

Absolutely.

 

say how many how many years years later so

 

JO TARNAWSKY (14:43)

So I crossed the magic five year mark about a month into the job. And I still say that a little cautiously because I think anybody who’s gone through it, you don’t have that casual sort of confidence about what the future holds. But certainly the doctors stop worrying about you a little bit from that point and it sort of back into more normal monitoring.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (15:08)

So you have held some incredibly important strategic roles that are kind of the pinnacle of public service and in some pretty tough destinations around the world. You have faced into a personal health battle being breast cancer in a foreign country. You’ve got through that, you’ve worked your way through that, dropping one job and

 

just working through just the one position. But that compared to perhaps more recent experience just highlights what strength of character you must have to do what you’ve done in your career, So my question’s gonna be, If you had carte blanche to speak out and the Power Of Women Podcast is your stage,

 

Given what the last 18 months or so have been, where should we start?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (16:10)

Yeah, that’s a good question. Firstly, I think you’re right. I do think that some of these other experiences helped prepare me. Bad things can happen to us at any time. And I think the only choice we ever have is sort of how we respond. But if I have

 

carte blanche, I think the most useful thing I can do for you and your audience. It’s not necessarily going through the detail blow by blow sort of thing, but it’s also about what we take from these experiences. So. For me, I think I think we there are moments in your life where you wake up in the morning and you have absolutely no idea that your life is about to change and that. No trigger warning.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (16:52)

No trigger warning.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (16:55)

And that something or someone is about to come across your path and by day’s end, your life is different from that moment on. And so for me, that, that day was Tuesday, the 30th of April, 2024. I had just, yeah. And there will be parts that are imprinted. and that’s okay. for me, I, it came through a phone call.

 

And it was a phone call with my boss, who is the deputy prime minister. We had just come back from an extraordinary trip to Ukraine. The entire trip had fallen apart while we were en route. And it was lucky in a way that I had this diplomatic background and I had done VIP visits before and worked in war zones. ⁓ I, you know, had a range of global contacts at high levels that I’d sort of established through my work, because I needed to call on all of them to be able to pull off

 

weaving it all back together. It is the single hardest job I’ve ever done. And so at the end of like, I was really grateful that I, you know, we were able to pull it together. But what had happened as part of that is on the way home, I had decided to raise with him privately that I had been experiencing some issues in the workplace that was starting to have an impact on me. And I, you know, tried to manage this for a while, but I had reached a point where I felt that I needed to draw them to his attention. He had

 

responded to me ⁓ in all of this was in text messages that, ⁓ you know, he really valued me. He was very grateful for my work and we should have a chat. And so that chat happened that day. There was no time set for it. In fact, we played a bit of phone tag that morning, ⁓ which was really normal in my job. ⁓ And this is a man I had known for more than 10 years who had actually asked me specifically to come to Parliament House to do that job for him.

 

And so I had no reason to sort of be too concerned. I had just wanted to raise it with him so that he knew and not to inadvertently feed the dynamics. And the conversation took a look, a really unexpected and devastating turn. And by the end of that phone call, which happened at around 11 o’clock in the morning, went for about 45 minutes.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (19:11)

Was the phone call one-on-one?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (19:13)

It was one-on-one, I just happened, thank goodness I was sort of, mean, thank goodness in some ways I was on my own. but at the same time, I didn’t have a support person or anything. Like I said, it just didn’t seem anything other than routine. And, by the end of that phone call, I had basically been stood down from traveling, ⁓ the next day and to see him, he had wanted me to take leave, saying that.

 

You know, I needed a break and not just a few days, take a few weeks off the books. And I, you know, he had sort of said. I had asked him because it was so the conversation has taken such a weird turn. said, you know, are you asking me to start looking for another job? And he it sounded at the time like he had sort of reluctantly agreed to that. But I found out later he’d had ⁓ he’d actually had a conversation.

 

prior to the phone call. So he knew what he was doing when he went into it. ⁓ And his last parting, chilling words to me were, I know how to manage this, trust me. Because I had asked, yeah. And again, this is a man I’d known for a long time. And so I was shocked. I was in trauma, probably. mean, mostly it was just shock at that point. But I’m also somebody who follows rules and doesn’t like to make a mess.

 

had no reason to trust that I wouldn’t take this time off.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (20:40)

your intuition telling you Jo

 

JO TARNAWSKY (20:42)

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. and I hadn’t fully processed it. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. But then I guess to sort of cut a really long story short, it’s sort of the what happens next. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

 

Of course, I can’t come back, but all my things are still in my office. And how does the Deputy Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff just disappear with no notice midway through a Tuesday? It just didn’t make any sense.

 

And then at the same time, the Parliamentary Workplace Service was trying, had told me that they were going to cut off my counselling. And this was at a point where I was isolated alone. I was having nightmares.

 

I was in one of the deepest, darkest holes of my life, not knowing what was going on. And so at that point I got a lawyer who, and even then nobody knew what was going on. was all very quiet.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (21:44)

There was no public announcement to the collegiate workforce that you were stepping back.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (21:51)

Nope. then they got that step at least got my counseling reinstated. And then I was allowed back on the work site at Parliament House. But at the 11th hour, new conditions were put on me that were basically that I couldn’t go into my own office without 24 hours of written notice and a special project had been set up for me. So I would then go into work and, know, as and I was trying to find.

 

other jobs so I could exit, but I would often come second and I was putting on a brave face while I was coping with the biggest trauma of my life. And I had no contact ⁓ with my boss or the office. It was just bizarre and it was deeply traumatic and I was trying to cover for myself and for everyone. And so I would literally sit in the car park and cry some mornings. I started having panic attacks because I would have to use everything I had to go and put on a brave face.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (22:46)

and we’ll.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (22:46)

And

 

yeah, and so it was five long months before I went public. had kind of got back into a corner where the special project was ending. I knew I wasn’t able to go back into my own office.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (22:56)

And with special project code for sidelined really.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (23:00)

it wasn’t called a special project. was, mean, there’s been a whole lot of workplace reforms that were ⁓ put out after the Jenkins review and the set the standard. And there has been some improvements around training and things. And I’ve got a bit of a background and a passion for this actually. I was a huge advocate for some of the workplace culture reforms and participated wherever I could. So I went around and as the most senior.

 

female chief of staff on the Hill during the winter break, when I met with all the chiefs about what they wish they had have known, you know, what training would be useful for them, all of that with the view of putting together a guide ⁓ to help future chiefs of staff. So it was kind of a bizarre situation because some of them would obviously share things with me and they had no idea what was going on. I was putting on the most professional face I possibly could. ⁓

 

And so yeah, it was five months before I went public when I’d sort of been backed into a corner because ⁓ this temporary project was ending. ⁓ didn’t seem to be any pathway back to my role. I still didn’t know what I’d done or why this had happened. was just…

 

DI GILLETT – Host (24:14)

Nobody

 

was informing you?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (24:16)

You were blinded. Yeah, just blinded. And ⁓ I’d come second and I just, I didn’t. And the options were, which many people do because of the power that you’re facing on the other side is to walk away quietly. the alternative choice, of course, is to say something. And in my mind, ⁓ they were both terrible choices, terrible options, I should say. But.

 

⁓ Part of it was informed by the fact that I think a large part of the trauma was the covering and the idea of walking away without saying something would mean I would have to keep doing that. My daughter had actually seen the impact at home and she was 11 at the time and she said, know, mum, maybe if you tell someone, maybe someone will help you. And that

 

that really stopped me in my tracks because I mean, I was in such a dark place and I thought, you know what, I owe it to her more than anything to do everything I can before this takes me. And the other thing is we teach kids around, you know, ⁓ if you’ve got a secret, yeah, if you’ve got a secret, there’s no secret too big that you shouldn’t share it, that we stand up to bad behavior and.

 

she’s about to go through high school and, and, you know, I couldn’t very well give her that advice if I wasn’t living it myself. And so, yeah, I thought about it for quite a while. wasn’t a rash decision. I knew it came with consequences. Um, and I’ve got to say, seeing myself on camera is like, I, not a thing. I, I’ve said to a number of people, think other than my fear of snakes.

 

seeing myself on TV. ⁓ And to this day, I have never watched that first press conference. I remember shaking. And I remember saying things. mean, I wrote, obviously I wrote what I said aloud, but I remember foreshadowing a few things which proved to become true, which is that I knew I would be iced out from that point. That’s how the system works and that people would rally around to protect him in their own power. And that’s exactly what happened. And so

 

They doubled down. I was lost out even more and isolated. ⁓ No one from the government ever checked on me. They passed the same lawyers that have been geared up for the Parliamentary Work Post Support Service that have been used by the Deputy Prime Minister to come cover. ⁓ They couldn’t give me guarantees around my confidentiality and privacy with some very personal information like psychologist records and medical records. They just said they’d give me a pseudonym.

 

And I just realized this isn’t going to work. And I wrote an open letter to the prime minister to this day. He’s never even acknowledged receipt. And so I made the very difficult decision to then embark on public and traumatic litigation. Let me tell you, it’s not for the faint of Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (27:29)

So Jo, what is the public interest story here? What should we know?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (27:35)

Well, I think a few things. think I have learned so much over this last year. I’ve learned about the prevalence, sadly, of toxic workplaces. I think in my case, Parliament, it was well documented. The set the standard report, the Jenkins review, as it’s called, ⁓ that had come on the back of some highly publicised cases at Parliament. 1700 people had come through, had spoken up as part of that review.

 

The now Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had stood in parliament in February 22 and made promises to keep women safe. Brittany Higgins and others were in the gallery when he made this speech. And said, you know, and the value of staffers ⁓ and to, you know, everybody needed to walk the talk. ⁓ And I think sadly what I’ve helped show is that while there has been some changes,

 

much of it is window dressing and much of the power imbalance still remains ⁓ and people are still very vulnerable. So there’s that. I think, too, the number of people that have reached out to me, particularly, I mean, I went I went very quiet on social media, shut down most accounts, but I kept LinkedIn open. And the amount of people that have reached out to me with stories of their own workplace ⁓ abuse, it is everywhere. It is a it’s almost like a quiet epidemic. And

 

I don’t really ever need to hear the details of people’s stories. I need, I basically get a sentence or two in and this is someone who speaks the same language and they know it. ⁓ You can recognise it in other people. And my psychologist, have a wonderful psychologist and she had sort of been a little bit worried about me when I went public sort of saying, Jo, you’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on before you help others.

 

⁓ I know you, she said, be careful, but I’ve got to say with a lot of these people, they did not reach out for one-on-one like me trying to fix their problem. Well, they were actually sort of backing it in and saying, we’re watching what you’re, what you’re doing is really important. Keep going. And, ⁓ the vast majority of those were women, not all, the vast majority. Yep.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (29:38)

I just wanted to share it.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (29:56)

And they were just letting me know that they supported me. And that wasn’t just after press conferences either. ⁓ It would be, it trickled right through, all the way through to today. I still get every week a couple of people reaching out because I’ve seen you.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (30:12)

Women, senior executives, or is it mixed?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (30:16)

I would say it’s really mixed in all different industries. There are some senior people and I think sometimes they reach out to me because it’s really difficult to know who to trust. And when I’ve been as public as I have, and I’ve been in the senior roles, I am potentially someone that understands. And particularly if they’ve been subject to what I would call upward bullying, which is a known type, there’s sort of a shame and not a lot of understanding around that. so again,

 

I think that can be, or if they’re in a high profile position, like I’ve had people that have got like post-nominals after their name, like orders of Australia and things get in contact with me. And It’s the shock and the trauma, but what I’ve learned, and here is the real public interest, I think, because I think it’s not just for individuals to know, but for workplaces, that often the targets of workplace abuse are not the people that we think necessarily in the schoolyard where we think of

 

⁓ really visible sorts of things that you can pinpoint or where the targets may be the weakest link, but more than more often than not, they’re high performing ethical people. And I think that’s why the trauma hits so bad because. You know, we spend a third of our lives at work. So they’re not just jobs. They are also part of who we are. And so when workplaces turn toxic.

 

It impacts everything. It impacts our health and confidence. It impacts our families and it impacts the future we see for ourselves. It is, like I said, a lifequake.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (31:52)

Jo, coming up, we’re going to talk more about your courageous story. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Jo, you were chief of staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and the Minister of Defence before your world

 

literally blew up in front of your eyes? What caused you most grief?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (32:25)

That’s

 

another good question, did I? I think there’s a few things you grieve. So for me, this is the job I’d wanted since I was 12 years old. I’d gone to Parliament House when I was 12 and I’d met then Prime Minister Bob Hawke. I never wanted to be a politician, but I just wanted to be the key person next to the decision maker. And I didn’t know that’s what it was, but all the work I’d done, you

 

going to university at the ANU, which was near Parliament House, working at Parliament House as a university student. This was the job, like at the senior level, this is everything I’d worked for. So this was the dream. I loved my job. So there was a grief, I guess, in having it end so abruptly and everything. And so there’s a grief that I think you have to let go of the job. particularly when it’s

 

ended in such traumatic circumstances. But I think too, there’s a broader piece there around you, there’s a grief that comes because you feel so abandoned by the people and the workplace or the institution that you’ve given so much to. And I think that’s common for a lot of people who have gone through a toxic workplace experience.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (33:46)

Do you feel that your colleagues had abandoned you through their own choices or do you feel they had been told to keep their distance?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (33:56)

Both. think sometimes you don’t need to be told because you know the way it works. ⁓ But I do understand people were also told. So I think both. But I think this comes back to what something that I said and part of those fast things at the beginning, There is a real cost to speaking up ⁓ on these things, but there is also a cost to being silent So.

 

if you take it even broader, when I sort of look at what’s happening in the world right now, There is a cost to being silent because you vacate the space for others. There is a cost to not, you know, to just staying out of the way that it’s somebody else’s problem ⁓ because that can have a human impact as well. So for me, as I’ve explained, there was also a cost of covering and not speaking the truth.

 

⁓ I felt that that added to my trauma. and I think I was right. ⁓ I think when I looked at my options about walking away or standing up and saying something, I knew by getting up and saying something and shaking like a leaf and facing those cameras, it would get harder, but I could at least see an option where it might get better. And I did feel immediately like a weight had lifted because I told the truth. And I have met people who have left.

 

places that have been bad for them and who didn’t say anything and sometimes they’re carrying the trauma years down the track. It’s still eating them. Whereas I’ve got to say that my recovery has, I think, been helped by the fact that I felt that I had done everything I could to raise the flag ⁓ and I’ve been true to my values.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (35:42)

Did your daughter have something to say when you stepped forward and spoke out?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (35:47)

Yeah,

 

I think she felt very proud that she had ⁓ helped me fix it in her view.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (35:56)

How wonderful.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (35:59)

She’s such a great kid, you know, I’m so lucky. And when I look at the future, we need strong, courageous women like her. I think there’s a, get this wrong, but there’s this wonderful little internet thing I’ve seen on the internet where it’s strong women. May we be them, may we raise them. And so hopefully I’m doing that with her, but she definitely, she’s got very high EQ, she’s very kind.

 

She’s super smart with real world stuff for a kid of her age. I mean, she’s had that all her life, to be honest, when we go back to when I had cancer, and even as a three year old, we had tried to explain it to her in age appropriate ways. she’d obviously, kids pick up on things though. she, I woke up one morning and she was right in my face. It was, I think just before my surgery.

 

And she’d obviously been thinking about it and she’d come up to me and she’s right there and she, and she just slant in very gently. And she said, don’t worry, mommy, if you lose your hair, I’ll find it for you. Which is just, I’ll never forget that. And when my hair did start falling out and you shave it to, mean, I didn’t quite understand this till it happened to me, but it’s, it’s the weight and it sort of irritates the scalp. if you can.

 

Let go of that shaving helps. And she went round with a little dust band and sort of picked it all up. So she likes, I think, feeling that she helped fix it. And it was the same with this. She was very proud of me for getting up there and saying something, but she also felt that she had helped. And so I think now as she sort of heads into high school, I hope that I have provided that role modeling for her and.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:27)

data.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (37:48)

We do have a very open relationship. Who knows what the robust teenage years hold for us, but hopefully she knows that there’s no secret too big that she can’t share with me.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (37:59)

her empathy score will remain as high. that’s… Jo, you said to me you don’t need a large crowd, you just need the right people. What do you mean by that?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (38:02)

I hope so. I hope so.

 

So I think finding the right people can be a game changer. So for me, it is hard. It is part of the grief that you have to let go of some people. ⁓ But again, from when I had cancer, I remember someone telling me, you’re going to be really surprised by the people who step up and the people who step back. Focus on the people who step up.

 

And so I had learned when you talk about what lessons I’d learned from some of these other hard experiences, that was one of them. And ⁓ you learn to focus on the people that step up, but also the people who step back. It actually says more about them and it’s more about them than it is about you. So we’ve cancer, it might be that they have something traumatic. They don’t know what to say. So they’re just back away because it’s easier not to have to say anything at all. ⁓ With a situation like this, people

 

may feel unsafe to have anything to do with you because they might feel that they’re going to lose their jobs by osmosis, just by breathing the same air as you or contacting you to see if you’re okay. having the right people

 

DI GILLETT – Host (39:16)

in a line

 

definition

 

of a toxic workplace joke.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (39:30)

Right. But I mean, even beyond that, there’s friends who I think will you I see it as a gift, actually, because I know exactly who my people are now. There’s some what I’d call fairweather friends whose silence speaks for them. That’s fine. It is part of that grief. ⁓ But you learn to let them go and and learn to look at who steps up. And sometimes those people can really surprise you. They could be on the periphery of your life and

 

really play a central role through some of these more difficult moments. You know, when I think about the key people, I only because I needed to feel safe and because this was high profile in terms of the friends I had, this is these wonderful friends of mine who they knew something was wrong. This is before I went public. They could see it. They knew I wasn’t ready to talk about it, but one day I just.

 

I turned up on their doorstep, I walked into their kitchen, I burst into tears. I told them everything and they just hugged me and they have been with me ever since. ⁓ And I think some of the value that they bring is that when you lose yourself in these situations, they know you before and they can see you, who you are beyond this thing that has happened to you. And so I think it’s one of those things that sometimes when you’ve lost the confidence in yourself,

 

borrow somebody else’s until you can find it again. So they’re wonderful people. even, you know, I found this amazing Pilates teacher again, she didn’t know. She didn’t know the details of what I was going through, but she could see it in my body. And so she ⁓ she was also central. My lawyer, I had somebody who wasn’t just a game changer in terms of the law. But he was a

 

game changer in terms of life. And so now when I look at what I want to do with my life and have it purpose driven, he was a large part of that great psychologist. Yep. And then friends, old school friends that came out of the woodwork who knew me way back then. ⁓ And, you know, there’s parts of you just don’t change. You know, there’s no pretenses with people that have known you since childhood.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (41:29)

the give.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (41:43)

they reconnected and reached out. ⁓ I’d gone quiet on social media, I, you know, there was sort of friends and family who were sort of ⁓ doing their bit there. ⁓ So then there were people like my DFAT friends and they, again, they believed me because they knew me and they knew that you wouldn’t stand, I wasn’t somebody that would be standing up unless this is super serious and it had reached sort of this point. And they believed me and they,

 

came and made sure I wasn’t isolated because I think that’s one of the big things that can affect people in toxic workplaces is just how isolating it is. So not only are you gaslit and you don’t know what’s going on and you’re confused why this is happening and you don’t know who to trust, but often there are dynamics in play which cut you off. And so just someone walking, walking with me with the dogs, being with me.

 

There’s another person who I’ll forever remember. So a lot of senior, senior bureaucrats who I know quite well, I’ve never heard from again because it’s all so risky, but I’ve, I’ve had a long-term mentor who has been there throughout. And there was somebody that I didn’t know, senior bureaucrat who reached out to me because it just didn’t make sense to them. And they caught up with me a number of times and it wasn’t to discuss the ins and outs of the case. It was simply.

 

So I wasn’t alone. And the power of that, extraordinary, extraordinary and unexpected. And so I learned, you know, if anybody asked me for a coffee, particularly after I went public, there were people and people said LinkedIn. I’ve made real life friends off LinkedIn and met up with people for coffees because I learned to embrace these. These were my people. It’s a real gift. I know exactly who they are. And some of these people existed before and some of them didn’t.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (43:15)

and unexpected.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (43:37)

But these are people who share my values, who admire courage, ⁓ who may have, may or may not have lived experience, but these are my people. And so I actually, while it would be easy to see this as purely an exercise in grief, for me, it’s a gift. You don’t get many opportunities in life to find out really who’s cheering for you and who your people are. And I know exactly who they are now.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (44:03)

people are. So what is next for Jo Tonasky?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (44:08)

Well, it was never on my bucket list, but I have just launched my own business. I could have returned to diplomacy, but I think that thing that I talked about in terms of silence, I realized the value of my voice. I didn’t want to go back in the jar. And when you work in the public service, there’s a whole lot of rules around what you can or can’t do. And I couldn’t sort of just go on like this had never happened.

 

So I made a conscious decision to walk away from government and I wasn’t sure what to do next. took six months off. And if you’d asked me immediately afterwards, I would have told you that I just wanted to close this chapter of my life and move on. It was good to take the break. I got some good advice from friends that said, Jo, take a break. And I think they also know me that once I start work again, I’ll just dive straight into it. So. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – Host (45:00)

Have

 

a reputation for handing two jobs at once,

 

JO TARNAWSKY (45:04)

Well, ⁓ but again, the people just kept reaching out to me and I was doing something without noticing it on LinkedIn. I was liking and commenting on posts. It wasn’t necessarily posting about workplace issues, but ⁓ I was liking and commentating on a whole bunch of psychologists and academics that were working in this space. people would reach out to me and they would say, thank you. ⁓

 

that they were following me. And obviously they were in their own situations where they couldn’t openly like or comment on these posts themselves. But by watching what I was doing, it was empowering them to understand what was going on. And so they could make good decisions for themselves. And so I think I hit a period around July or August where I thought, you know what, taking a leaf out of this, there is something. And if I look at my lawyer and the conversations we’ve had around living a purpose led lives that

 

positively impact people, realized that I actually had an opportunity that if I leaned into this, well, it wasn’t something I necessarily wanted to be known for. This actually had the potential to help more people. And I had a real opportunity to do that. So while part of my business is around strategic advice and I have clients that I help that is more to do with my traditional background in international relations and government, there is a public part of it, which is around

 

helping people understand what has happened to them. call it workplace recovery because it’s not just about individuals, it’s around people. So for individuals, I’ve actually recorded a video series. So trust can be a really big thing and people can’t articulate it. They don’t know where to go, where to start. But if you can, I’ve sort of seen myself not as the medical advice, not as the legal advice, but helping that building block of understanding this is what’s happening so that then people can make a better decision about what they do from there.

 

and leading them to a whole bunch of resources that I have found. Books, podcasts, some of yours actually die and make the list. Yeah, about people just trying to get them into a better place because this is sadly everywhere and it can destroy lives. But then the second part of that is actually helping organisations because I sort of feel like when helping individuals, it’s a little bit like putting a bandaid on a cut leg. What you want to do is

 

DI GILLETT – Host (47:05)

Fantastic.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (47:25)

stop the leg being cut in the first place. And so workplace recovery, maybe they’ve had issues or whatever, but it’s helping people understand some of these lesser known dynamics because things like it is high performing ethical people that are targeted. Once you know that it helps you be more alert to it. And like so many problems in this world, once you shine a light on that, it takes away a lot of the power.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (47:27)

place.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (47:51)

So if I can educate workplaces more on some of the things that I have learned ⁓ and to help them, then I kind of know you’re not just healing or helping the organization, but you’re changing lives. And so that’s what I’m going to do.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (48:10)

done you. Do you think you’ll ever get the chance to educate your old employer or would you like to?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (48:18)

I would love a chance actually to come and actually help the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service because as I said in my second press conference, my goal is not to destroy them. They are the best. They are better than anything we’ve had in the past. And there’s some really good people that are working there that saw the stories of Brittany Higgins and others that wanted to come and make a difference.

 

What has happened though is that the infrastructure has been set up to still protect the people in power. Now this happened in the UK and they actually had to adjust the independent mechanisms because they weren’t independent, which is what we’re finding here. And so there’s a real opportunity here for the parliamentary workplace support service, which is what came out of the, one of the things that came out of the Jenkins review and the standard to sort of learn some of the early examples of people that just talk to people like me about

 

How do we adjust this? Like to think that they would get it all right in one shot, it’s complex. know, this is decades of bad behavior that has been up at parliament. so learning that and making adjustments, because what I think it’s going to end up being is not seen as independent, not trustworthy, and that’s not in anyone’s interest. We want this to work. And so actually, that’s where I think I’d be more helpful is not just in terms of my own office and my own boss, but

 

DI GILLETT – Host (49:19)

.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (49:42)

in terms of the broader system because I do get contacted by parliamentary workers from every single political colour and also some of the public servants that are working on the hill or elsewhere, other pockets of the hill, not necessarily staffers. This is not limited to one office or one body.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (50:05)

Partisan

 

issue that needs a bipartisan approach.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (50:08)

Correct. Correct.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (50:10)

Well, Jo, thank you so very much for sharing your story on The Power of Women. And again, thank you for trusting me to talk to you about your story, because I know it has been an incredibly difficult stage in your life. But you’ve coped with tough things before, so you have proven the resilience and the strength that you have got to get through these.

 

and to move beyond and I wish you all the very best in your new business. And I know that there’ll be others who will benefit from the tough experiences that you have had and you can share some of that hindsight and help them moving forward. I do have a closing question for you today through the lens of the power of women and touching on having the right people in your circle. So for the woman listening who still might be searching for their circle,

 

How do we find them and how do we hold on to the right people?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (51:12)

I think finding them, part of that is that, rightly or wrongly, we call it women’s intuition, the people who make you feel calm and safe, ⁓ where your nervous system relaxes, where you feel that you can be yourself, who are actively cheering for your success and that they want to see you thrive. I think that’s the first thing. I think look for the people who step up ⁓ when you do go through hard times. ⁓

 

And then I think you need to be able to sort of give back to them as well. And you can find them in unexpected places. So they might be long term friends, they might be people in your life right now. But like I have also said, they can also be found online. There is a wonderful community out there and it’s people like you, Daya, to be honest. I hope you don’t mind me saying that you were one of the people that reached out to me.

 

while not exclusively have they been women, the vast majority of people who have reached out have been women. And so I think your podcast is aptly described ⁓ that sometimes there is real power of women ⁓ in supporting the successes and supporting people through harder times ⁓ to get through this life. You’re doing great work, Di, and I love

 

DI GILLETT – Host (52:33)

making me feel emotional now.

 

JO TARNAWSKY (52:38)

One of the things that brings me great joy in life is seeing other people thrive and live their best lives and particularly where they’re making an impact on others and you are doing all of those things.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (52:48)

and we look forward to you doing exactly the same, Jo. So thank you again, wishing you all the best. We are going to share the link to your new website. Is it joetanarski.com or is it?

 

JO TARNAWSKY (53:01)

Yes, it is. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well. I’m just starting up Instagram and a sub stack, so follow me there as well. But LinkedIn is where I have the biggest… Diving all in. That’s right. learned a lot. Brilliant.

 

DI GILLETT – Host (53:11)

Out.

 

Fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing. We will share that with the community. And for the listeners, I think this is such a super important episode to share with somebody in your network because we all have either somebody within our sphere or we have personally experienced tough times at work. the choice to speak out does not

 

come easily. know in my own life there is a scenario that I have never put out there into the public space because at the time the cost of speaking out, the cost of that was too high at that time. But you never know Jo, I just might have it in me yet. it is an example for individuals who need to bring something to the fore and right or wrong. Well done. Until next time.

 

Connect with Di:

Connect with Di on LinkedIn

Follow Power Of Women on LinkedIn

Follow Di on Instagram

The Power Of Women Podcast Instagram

Contact Di

 

Find Jo Tarnawsky at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-t-94568417a/

Website www.jotarnawsky.com

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jo_tarnawsky/

 

This is the home of unapologetic conversations and powerful stories of reinvention. New episodes drop every Monday to fuel your week with insights on leadership, resilience, and success. Subscribe and join a community of women who are changing the game.

 

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Next-Gen Leadership Breaking Barriers + Brand Building Via Social Media

Next-Gen Leadership Breaking Barriers + Brand Building Via Social Media

by | Oct 13, 2025 | Exemplar, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders, Female Podcast

A masterclass on breaking barriers, self-reflection + building brand YOU.

Lana Samuels represents the future of leadership: fearless, curious, and unafraid to step into spaces still dominated by men. In this conversation, we explore her journey from graduate to global thinker, the role of social media in building her influence, and how she balances authenticity with professionalism while inspiring others online.

 

You’ll here:

➜ How Lana built her leadership career and carved out opportunities in male-dominated industries.

➜ The pivotal role of social media in amplifying her profile and shaping her success.

➜ Insights on balancing authenticity with professionalism online.

➜ Whether glass ceilings still exist for the next generation of women leaders.

➜ What drives Lana’s reinvention and her vision for the future of leadership.

 

Lana said:

“Social media wasn’t just about posting — it became the platform where I built my credibility.”

“Authenticity isn’t the opposite of professionalism. It’s what makes leadership relatable and real.”

“Glass ceilings? They only exist if we stop pushing against them.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT – HOST (00:00)

So be remiss being the Power of Women podcast not to talk about females in a male-dominated industry. And I don’t want to overplay it, but it is in the wheelhouse of Power of Women. And particularly at the top end, which is where you’re playing, it’s largely male-dominated. How hard has it been breaking into that space? And how have your competitors responded?

 

LANA SAMUELS (00:27)

Great question. It has been hard. There’s one situation that really stands out as soon as you ask that question. I had a bit of a moment last year. I had a very good client of mine come to me and say, I had a bit of a moment with a competitor of yours the other day. And I said, really? He said, yeah, you know, I brought you up and he was a friend of his and he said, you know, Lana’s doing really well. You know, she’s sold recently for a friend of mine. There was some sort of,

 

story that he was saying and the male agent said, yeah, it’s because she’s a little bit too close to the husbands, if you know what I mean. And it broke my heart hearing that and still even saying that now really upsets me.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (01:10)

So that’s the throwaway male line that’s got to be sex implied for a female to be successful.

 

LANA SAMUELS (01:16)

female in my industry to be successful. And it’s not something that I’ve really supposed

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (01:22)

So

 

are you angry or emotional?

 

LANA SAMUELS (01:24)

emotional about it and I was angry as well and I really I kind of fought back hard I thought do I call this guy

 

Lana Samuels, White Fox Director here this afternoon. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here. It’s been a long time coming, Di. When I think about my philosophy in business, I think it’s pretty simple. It’s do the right thing, never do anything illegal, and if you say you’re going to do something, make sure that you deliver. So I’ve always been in the ethos of under-promise and over-deliver and really nurture relationships because you’ve got one shot.

 

and reputation’s everything. Once you lose it, you never get it back.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (02:02)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is a shout out to join the Power of Women community because it is growing and it’s growing through our followers and our subscribers of the podcast. And we’ve also got our YouTube channel, which I’d love you to jump on.

 

I love exploring the journeys that shape remarkable careers, the choices, the sacrifices, the mentors and the lessons learnt along the way. Today’s conversation is a special one for me because my guest Lana Samuels quite literally grew up next door. I’ve had the pleasure of watching her journey, hearing her proud parents in all that she has achieved.

 

because what a journey it has been. And the reason I asked Lana to join me on the podcast, her success delves into what it really takes to rise in a competitive industry. Her ambition is fueled where resilience is tested. And in so doing, being recognized by her peers as an exemplar in an industry that doesn’t always get a great rap.

 

And it’s also an opportunity to get into the weeds about stepping into spaces still dominated by men and understand how Lana has been so successful in navigating that landscape, building credibility, earning respect and leading with both strength and authenticity. Lana Samuels, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

LANA SAMUELS (03:45)

Thank you, Di. What a beautiful introduction. You’re going to make me a little bit emotional.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (03:49)

And I know it’s only for us on camera today, but ⁓ your gorgeous mother is listening just outside the studio.

 

LANA SAMUELS (04:00)

is I’ve got my beautiful entourage with me today, my beautiful women. I’ve got Mum, who’s obviously a good friend of yours and my support system and my beautiful assistant Nellie. So the girls are all here celebrating one another and supporting. Beautiful.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (04:15)

So as I’ve said, you’ve grown up next door to me and I have watched your career rise. But it’s not so much that I want to draw that part of the story today, but there are so many aspects of what you have done that are going to be inspirational, particularly for younger women starting out on their career and breaking barriers. I would love to…

 

Start out with your early years, Lara. What or who shaped your drive and ambition?

 

LANA SAMUELS (04:50)

think my mum is the person that always shaped my drive and ambition. mean, you know, our journey as a family, you know, we went through some very difficult times growing up and it’s really funny even just driving here and parking today and being outside the South Melbourne market. That’s where I worked from the age of 14 to 18. know, mum and dad always instilled a really strong work ethic in myself and my brother growing up. And if you want something,

 

You need to go out and get it. Nothing’s going to be delivered and, you know, given to you on a silver platter. So definitely mum and dad. Also, I’d say mum, just as a really strong female, she really showed me what it was to work hard from a very young age. And, you know, it’s, it’s an amazing thing to have a strong female mentor in your life. And, Di, I’m not just saying it because I’m sitting here, but having you as a neighbour, I don’t think you realise, I remember so vividly finishing year 12 and speaking to you about.

 

I don’t know if you remember. do. Mum and dad said, speak to Di. Di will give you some great advice. I remember it was the lead up to finishing VCE. I had a conversation with you about which direction to go into because I was so confused. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. You are giving me some beautiful advice. I’ve been really blessed in my life having such beautiful, strong, empowering women around me.

 

I think it’s just so incredibly special to have that in your life and I’m really lucky that I’ve had it.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (06:17)

Did you always imagine yourself in a career like this?

 

LANA SAMUELS (06:21)

I thought I would be in event management. That’s where I thought I would land. I’ve always been a hard worker, really intense. I love throwing myself in the deep end. I get bored really easily and I don’t think I would have survived an office job. I love being with people, trying new things and having new experiences. So did I think I’d get into real estate? No, I thought I’d probably be.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (06:44)

Remember we had that discussion when you came back from the UK and asked whether in fact you should.

 

LANA SAMUELS (06:48)

And I

 

was in tears one day speaking to you. I’ll never forget that moment. I asked you if I should get into real estate because we obviously, a bit of background on me, came back from the UK eight and a bit years ago. I moved back to Australia to join White Fox, which was a very small agency back then with only four of us. And I had a really rude awakening because I had no experience, no database.

 

no contacts after being in the UK for so many years. And I really just jumped in with a new brand that was trying to create noise. And funny enough, your other neighbor is now my business partner, Marty Fox. But to kind of unpack where I’m leading with this is I jumped in and drowned and I’m sure we’ll get to that in a moment. But I came to you in tears, really not sure what to do. And I remember you gave me some really great advice.

 

And I think it was along the lines of just keep going. You know, it’s not going to happen overnight. You know, if you love it and you love where it’s leading you and the right people, you know, you can do it. But nothing good comes easy.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (07:51)

No, it does not. So let’s, as you said, wind back because it was almost happenstance that you ended up working at White Fox. What’s the story?

 

LANA SAMUELS (08:04)

It’s a crazy story. So I was living in London for 10 years. was coming back. I was in sales. So interesting story. I’ll go through it very quickly with you because it’s a long story. at the age of 18, I met my husband. I fell in love. He was from the UK. I told my mom and dad I was moving to the UK to go and do a year just to test it out.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (08:10)

doing in

 

LANA SAMUELS (08:29)

told them that I had $10,000 in my bank account and I think I only had about $1,000 because I knew that they wouldn’t let me go. I never get, mom was like, how much money do you have savings? And I said, I’ve got over 10,000 and I didn’t, but I knew that, you know, I’d make it work, you know, sink or swim, just jump in and make it happen. So moved to the UK when I was 18, worked in sales in Mayfair for 10 years, working in five-star hotels, Michelin-star restaurants.

 

doing drink sales. I was doing all the big drinks distribution contracts for some of the best, biggest hotels, you know, and Mayfair night clubs. Having an absolute ball, came back for a holiday. Dad said to me, I’ve got to introduce you to our next door neighbor, a guy called Marty Fox. And I’ll never forget, I said to him, who’s Marty Fox? And dad said, he’s a real estate agent. And I rolled my eyes and said,

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:04)

the FMCG sector.

 

LANA SAMUELS (09:22)

Why do need to meet him? And he said, no, you’re looking to buy a property. Should meet him. He’s a lovely guy. He’s a go getter. ⁓ and I think you’ll get along with him really well. So dad introduced me to Marty, who was on the other side. So you’re on the right hand side of mom and dad. Marty and Charlotte were on the left hand side of mom and dad. we connected. Isn’t it? Well, straight, poor Melbourne. Everyone’s interconnected. Yeah. And met Marty, got along like a house on fire, bought my first property from him that day.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:39)

insist

 

LANA SAMUELS (09:51)

in Elwood and as we were signing contracts, I remember him saying to me, Lana, I’m about to launch a brand in a few weeks called White Fox. He showed me the logo, the first office on Coventry Street in South Melbourne. he said, you’re going to come work for me. I’ve just got this feeling. And my husband said to me on the way home that day, you need to go and work with this boy. He is special. He’s entrepreneurial. He’s got magic about him and he’s going to do great things. So we went back to the UK.

 

And I started to watch the business unfold through social media and I was watching no suits, no ties, beautiful marketing. And they were really emotionally connecting with their audience. And I was the first client. I was the very first person that bought a property through the business before they launched. And as a customer, I was on the journey and I was completely engrossed in it. long story short, Marty said to me, you’ve got to come and move to Australia. Like I need you to join the business. And we kept in touch and.

 

I was watching and I said to my husband, think if we’re going to do it, we do it now. Whilst the business is young and I have some really good training and we don’t have kids yet. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (10:59)

…a risk because,

 

LANA SAMUELS (11:02)

I know and I really took a big punt there, Di. You know, we packed up our whole world and moved back to Australia after 10 years, which is a big jump. It is. And moved in with Mum and Dad, next door to you. And the journey began.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (11:14)

Next door to me?

 

So what role did you start as?

 

LANA SAMUELS (11:20)

So I made a huge mistake. So I jumped straight into the deep end. I jumped in as a standalone agent straight away and it was a disaster. know, brand new brand, really young team backs up against the wall, trying to create business, trying to create noise and never been in before. my girlfriends and my friends were younger, you know, we’re in our mid twenties and they weren’t doing the transactions. My best friend’s dad, you know, is one of the

 

founders and owners of one of the biggest agencies in Melbourne. So all of my friends’ parents were transacting with the agency that, you know, they had credibility in relationships and deep rooted relationships with. So I kind of just was in the middle of nowhere and had a full breakdown. I threw in the towel, I quit. After my first six months, you know, I really struggled coming in as a standalone agent, went to Marty’s house, on his kitchen floor, bawling my eyes out.

 

This probably would have been off the back of a conversation with you, die. So hard. No one’s given me an opportunity. There’s not many women out there that I really knew of or looked up to or anyone that was mentoring me in the industry. And I really struggled. So I threw in the towel and Marty said, you’re not throwing in the towel. You’re to come in and be my EA and I’m going to teach you everything that you need to know. You need to start with the basics and learn and build.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (12:39)

How did that feel? You’d already established a career so then to step back.

 

LANA SAMUELS (12:44)

It was

 

quite confronting and my ego stepped in and I really hesitated there for a moment and I thought well hold on I’ve just had this incredible career in the UK, a huge team, I worked with billionaires, were travelling and they were flying me everywhere for business opportunities over there and had this incredible lifestyle. Why do want to be in EA? And I’m going to be back to the bottom of the ladder. So that was a really hard decision and a really difficult moment for me and it was quite confronting.

 

But I had to swallow my pride and I had to listen to somebody that was incredibly good at what they were doing and someone that I really looked up to and trusted and still do. And I had to back him and he made the right call there because it changed everything for me. It’s the best thing that I ever did. I started again and I had to step it back.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (13:32)

So how long was that trajectory from EA? Because today you’re a director. Managing director.

 

LANA SAMUELS (13:38)

Managing director.

 

The journey was, it was a good four years. Yeah, it took me four years. That’s nothing. But the four years, it’s really funny. I spoke about it earlier this year, was a keynote speaker at the biggest real estate conference in Australasia. Yep. Correct. Eric. So I spoke in front of six and a half thousand peers within the industry.

 

And I was actually the only female keynote speaker other than Kamala Harris, which is pretty mind blowing. But I spoke about the journey in the four years. I don’t think she has either. But the four years that I did as an EA, I would say is equivalent to about 15 years in the industry. That was a supercharged crash course. that’s a hundred miles an hour. And don’t forget real estate is 24 seven pretty much. You’re seven days a week. There’s no off button.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:12)

She sold any real estate.

 

LANA SAMUELS (14:32)

And I think for me, jumping in the early days, you know, and starting off in a brand that was just really beginning to build, I got exposed to a lot of things that no one would ever get exposed to now. Now we have 15 offices across Australia and New Zealand, but back then there was one office, second one opening, and I got to see every layer of the deal, every layer of recruiting, everything that was going right, everything that was going wrong.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:56)

And you had more of Marty’s time. So he was more available back then.

 

LANA SAMUELS (15:00)

It was

 

perfect. It was really good timing. I’m very lucky that I got that opportunity, but I really grabbed it with both hands. I made the most of it.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:09)

So title today of Managing Director, are you where you envisaged you would be at this point in your career?

 

LANA SAMUELS (15:18)

Yes, further along than what I thought, but I always had a really clear vision in my mind. So my gut is never wrong. I always trust my gut feeling. I knew there was something incredibly special about Marty and what he had in mind. He told me the journey trajectory from the very start and everything that he promised that he would do, he’s done and more. So

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:24)

Tell me about that.

 

LANA SAMUELS (15:45)

Along the journey, I knew that some pretty big opportunities were coming. And I knew very special. He’s like my brother, you know, absolutely adore him. I always said to Marty that I wanted to be a director within the business, but before I was 40. So and I’m now 36. I had that really clear goal. Hit it early. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:52)

special relation.

 

You’ve hit it early.

 

I don’t know many 36 year old managing directors, Lana. Female.

 

LANA SAMUELS (16:16)

There you go. There’s not a lot.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:17)

That is amazing. So you’ve also built not only an impressive career, but a really strong personal brand and social, your social media presence, it’s engaged, it’s polished, it resonates and it draws ⁓ a high attention out there in the world of Instagram. How intentional was that from the beginning?

 

LANA SAMUELS (16:40)

Thank you.

 

Intentional. Yeah. So I knew that I had an uphill battle because I didn’t have contacts when I joined the business and when I got into real estate and I didn’t have a big following on Instagram when I came back to Melbourne. many did I had about 500 people. ⁓ Yeah it was a small following. was friends, family, people from the UK. And today? 12 and a bit thousand. Yeah.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:56)

Any digital?

 

LANA SAMUELS (17:08)

So I knew that if I wanted to really create noise, build credibility, get attention in the right way and build my networks and my relationships that I would have to think bigger and I would have to think smart because I’d been away for so many years. So to put myself on a platform and to create a story, which is what real estate is all about, it’s about storytelling and connection. I knew that I wanted to create a bit of a brand online and a presence.

 

and I knew that that would fast track and amplify my career in a very short period of time if I did it correctly. And when I first began, I looked around and I don’t really have any females within my industry that I looked up to. Real estate was very different back then. was, you know, and that’s not long ago. This is, I’m talking eight years ago. know, very corporate, you know, the females always in Navy or black and

 

the traditional approach and you know which I love Navy of Black, don’t get me wrong. ⁓ was just, there was uniforms almost and no one was pushing the boundaries and I was lucky that Marty was pushing the boundaries in his way with his fashion you know the loafers, no suits, no tires, no socks and you probably remember it watching him jump out into the car on Port Melbourne as a neighbour.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (18:07)

But not good.

 

LANA SAMUELS (18:29)

But I thought, hold on, why can’t I have fun with it? And I’ve come from a fashion background. Mum’s been in fashion. I love colour. I love experimenting. So I started to really be playful with it. And I started to be myself and I’m in a bright pink dress today. This is how I dress for business. But at the time, no one was doing it in property videos and in real estate. So I thought, I’m just going to be me and just have fun with it. And then I started to try and be a little bit more strategic with it. I started to match my properties. And that became a thing.

 

and I’ll never forget I had a big beautiful listing in Turok and it was my first trophy listing that Marty put me on. He said I’m going get you to do the video here, 16 million dollar house in Turok and I walked into the kitchen and there was a beautiful duck egg blue because the internal carcass of the kitchen was a Stephen A. Kirst home, extraordinary, was duck egg blue and I thought I’m going to go and buy a duck egg blue dress. Where am going to find a duck egg blue dress and I don’t know where I found it.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (19:27)

can’t think of a male going, I’m gonna match my tie to…

 

LANA SAMUELS (19:31)

But

 

I started to do it and I went out and bought shoes and a dress that matched. was something so small but as soon as it went live and it went out on social media and it went out to the meta universe, people really stopped and you know, started commenting on it and it got a lot of attention and then that started to roll and then I started to match property videos moving forward and then now I have clients asking me, what are you wearing for our video? They’re excited by it.

 

It shows that you care and it ensures that you’re memorable and it became my thing. was it strategic? Yes, in a way it was. Did I expect that it would go to this level? No, but I was just being myself. has exceeded your expectations.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (20:11)

Yeah. And therein lies the danger for any employers because it’s which brand walks through the door first. And that’s been the same in my industry and I think it’s the same in any service industry. And if I could leave that as a message for any listeners, in developing a brand, sometimes the brand that

 

is above the door isn’t as powerful as the brand that walks through the door. And therein lies a challenge for employees and employers as to how one manages that scenario. your online presence was intentional. Is anybody else doing the same as you in the marketplace? have they started to follow you?

 

LANA SAMUELS (20:52)

Absolutely.

 

Now,

 

it’s funny because as a brand, we were ridiculed in the beginning with our social media. You know, I remember so clearly other agencies against us in listing appointments with Laugh and Snigger and White Fox, you know, you can’t sell through social media. This was so early in the piece. We were the only ones who really took it to the next level. We were having such fun with it and being so creative and pushing boundaries and really disrupting the industry from the traditional.

 

way of doing things and introducing cars, introducing fashion, introducing beautiful video music content. You know, I did a video not long ago where I had, and it sounds ridiculous, five outfit changes for one video, a big home in Brighton, but I wanted the buyer experience to move through the home with me and really feel how you can live in the home, you know, from the poolside down to the area downstairs, which is the speak easy bar, changed outfits to make it memorable.

 

But then we’ll also know that I care, but it’s also about having fun with it. So we always did push the boundaries and have fun and do things differently. At the start, they did laugh and ridicule and now they’re trying to copy. So it’s funny we giggle. You know you’re winning. You know you’re winning, but you’ve got to keep pushing the boundaries and being nimble and changing. So like we were discussing before we jumped online, you’ve got to constantly be fresh thinking of new ideas and people do catch up, but we’re still doing things that no one’s ever done before, which is really cool.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (22:31)

So have you found any female mentors in the industry? Marty’s clearly been in industry, but have you found other women prepared to mentor

 

LANA SAMUELS (22:39)

I have, I found some beautiful, powerful women and again, back to the power of social media, connecting through socials, know, meeting incredible operators from all across Australia. I’ve got two beautiful mentors in Sydney that have been in real estate for 20 odd years that are phenomenal operators that I really look up to and lean on for advice. I’ve got incredible women in Melbourne, people overseas that I connect with that I’ve met through social media. It just really unlocks.

 

so many powerful relationships. So this world through my phone has really opened up a completely different pathway for me and connected me with some extraordinary women out there that are really inspiring.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (23:20)

That’s fantastic. Well coming out we’re going to talk about breaking the glass ceiling. Yes. And the cost of success. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

Glass ceilings Lana, and I have a controversial view on glass ceilings that isn’t always ⁓ well received by my female peers. Do you feel there that they exist? Do you feel you have one?

 

LANA SAMUELS (23:51)

Yeah

 

I feel that they do exist and they’re there to be smashed.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (24:03)

There we go, straight up. So what about your peer group and your friendship group of women of similar age? What are they saying about glass ceilings in the industries that they’re working in?

 

LANA SAMUELS (24:05)

You

 

think for me personally, my girlfriends have chosen careers where they’re quite different to mine, not as male orientated, if I’m being completely honest. Majority of my girlfriends are in the design space and they’re in spaces where there’s a lot more female successful operators. So I wouldn’t say that I’ve had the exposure from like, they’re in fashion, they’re in the creative space.

 

They’re in design and typically speaking has a lot more females within that world. I wouldn’t say that the glass ceilings have been as

 

within my friendship circles. For me, think I’ve probably seen it the most out of all of us.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:04)

So reflecting back on starting out and pushing through, when did you first start to hit it and have to… Your words smashed…

 

LANA SAMUELS (25:10)

So, yeah,

 

Smash Through would have been about three and a half years ago. So I came out of being an EA into what’s called a standalone agent role three and a half years ago, close to four.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:22)

How hard was that transition? Because often transitioning within an organisation is difficult because garnering respect from one role to the next role can be really hard to

 

LANA SAMUELS (25:34)

Well, it was really hard for me because I was always, you on the side with Marty. He was the lead. So I was the EA, absolutely loved it, built some incredible relationships. But you were the second wheel. when it was funny, Marty actually sat me down one day and said, hey, as much as I would love you to be my EA until I’m 90 years old, because we just have a ball and we work so well together, I would be doing you a disservice to keep you in this role when you

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:46)

With a second wish

 

LANA SAMUELS (26:03)

are writing the numbers that you’re writing. You should be a top female operator in Australia. And this is your moment to go. Like, I’m going to have to cut you off, unfortunately. That’s so… Very selfless. ⁓ does Yeah. I was so upset because real estate’s hard. You know, it’s…

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:14)

That doesn’t happen so many times.

 

LANA SAMUELS (26:27)

It’s very up and down. It’s not a stable industry. And if you do it, you’ve to be 150 % dialed in. you can’t do it part time. It’s really quite difficult. he didn’t hold me back. It was the best thing that he ever did for me at the time I was upset because I didn’t want to have that responsibility, but I just did it.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:47)

correlations between real estate and the recruitment and search world that I came out of. It’s very similar.

 

LANA SAMUELS (26:52)

It’s very similar. So I jumped in to a standalone agent role and opened an office within the space of two weeks, hired a team of 10 males within the same week and hired my beautiful EA. So there was a million things that happened at once that I just jumped into. And that was how I broke out to become a standalone agent. But to go back to your question about, you know, when did I feel the ceiling? Like, what was that moment? It would have been when I…

 

went out and started to have to pitch a business by myself as a female with all of sudden all of this responsibility with a team to train, with mouths to feed, know, with salaries to pay for and essentially being on commission only, which is what you are as a

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (27:36)

running a profit centre. Correct.

 

LANA SAMUELS (27:38)

Yeah. So that was the moment and really going in and competing only against men, which was what was happening when I first started. was EAs that were females, but I wasn’t going head to head with female standalone agents.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (27:54)

Did the marketplace respond if you were going out and pitching to a potential client and the client was male? How did that go for you?

 

LANA SAMUELS (28:01)

Well, I had a beautiful experience and I’m really blessed to say that. I always say to my clients 90 % of the yes. And it’s also knowing when to turn away business, which I’m very good at doing. Not everyone’s going to be on your same wavelength and respect you and you meet people from time to time where you’re like, oh, you’re not for me and that’s okay. Real estate is quite intense because you’re in someone’s home.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:09)

That’s down to you.

 

LANA SAMUELS (28:26)

And it’s an intense process because you’re across the emotions, the finances. Like, you’re in their world and their space. So you see a lot and you see the good. So my experience going in was incredible. You know, I am a hard worker, as I think you know. You know, I never stop. If I’m in, 100%.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:36)

Dabbing the ugly

 

LANA SAMUELS (28:48)

And I started off small and built my way up from there, but I started off, I was very lucky that I tapped into my past clientele that I’d been nurturing over the four years of being an EA. And I tapped into my network of people that I’d been building and then making the change and, you know, the standalone agents through social media had a lot of people reaching out to me and saying, hey, why don’t you come and have a look at my house? So I was really lucky. they were coming to you? Yeah, it started, it of came out of nowhere.

 

But I’ve been doing so much work behind the scenes for years. Next to Marty, you know, we’d be taking on clients, he would list, he would sell, but I’d be nurturing on the buyers and building those relationships. And then all of a sudden, they were needing to transact, buy or sell again. So it’d be coming to me. So I was really lucky, but it was a lot of strategic work in the background to nurture those relationships so that when it was time to kind of move out, everything started to fall into place for me.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (29:42)

So you’ve seen, look, this is all the upside and this is all the positives, but there’s absolutely sacrifices that come with success. Can we talk about what some of those have been?

 

LANA SAMUELS (29:55)

Missing my best friend’s wedding last year and being a bridesmaid. ⁓ Not being able to go overseas because it’s peak season in real estate. Being spring really hard. That was a really difficult decision for me to make.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:08)

received by the people on the other end.

 

LANA SAMUELS (30:11)

understanding but really hurt, like devastated. ⁓ And that was purely I had to make a business decision. We were in a very difficult space as a market, you know, all the interest rates, I had to claw back business and being a high performer and managing a team. I could not step away for three weeks and leave my team like that.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:31)

anniversary performance results to deliver.

 

LANA SAMUELS (30:35)

And clients that wanted, you know, that have expectations they list with me, they’re expecting me at the front door. can’t just tap out.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:42)

be seen in a photo across the world.

 

LANA SAMUELS (30:44)

Exactly,

 

drinking a cocktail. Sometimes you can. It’s a very hard one though, Di, because you need boundaries and you need to have a life. But I had to make that decision, unfortunately, that I had to put the business first in this occasion. She knows I love her and, you know, that it wasn’t an easy decision, but there’s been sacrifices of big milestones and moments, but little things, you know. I was working seven days a week for the first five years.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:10)

How is he still working now? ⁓

 

LANA SAMUELS (31:12)

I’m doing big hours. It’s six days a week now. I have Sundays that are a non-negotiable. It is what it is. And I love it though. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Like for me, it’s not work. you. Yeah, it fuels me. It’s a pleasure. You have your moments, your good moments and your bad moments. But if you’re looking at your watch in this industry, it’s not for you. it. It’s just not. The phone starts at 7 a.m. It will probably stop at about 10, 30, 11 o’clock for me because by the time people finish work,

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:17)

No.

 

Yeah.

 

LANA SAMUELS (31:41)

They’re wanting to have those conversations with you, so you’ve got to be available and that’s very hard.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:46)

And I heard a few of those over the fence. know how long the hours are. And the search world’s the same. I used to work on an international time clock. International time clock was 24 hours.

 

LANA SAMUELS (31:58)

Yeah, exactly. Nonsensical. It’s intense and you can only do it if you love it. Otherwise you hit breaking point and then you just phase out.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:07)

So were there ever moments or have there been moments where you feel you’ve bitten off more than you can chew?

 

LANA SAMUELS (32:14)

Weekly.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:16)

Well there’s clarity. What are the sorts of things that trigger that feeling? What could it be? As small as what and as big as what?

 

LANA SAMUELS (32:17)

⁓ Daily.

 

Do

 

you know, it’s, don’t think anyone prepares you on as much as I love it. How hard it is managing people and managing a team. know, for me, I’m… Great. No one warned me at how hard it would be. No, I love my team, but it’s a lot of responsibility. can have all sorts of different shapes and sizes. So for me, I think one of the biggest challenges is time. I’m listing, I’m selling, I’m dealing with people’s most, you know,

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:33)

That’s why there’s a whole industry.

 

LANA SAMUELS (32:54)

their biggest assets and some of the biggest moments in their lives and it’s money, you know, it’s important. So I’m doing that and I’m generating, I’m the biggest generator in my office and running my business and my clientele and then having 10 people that I’m managing on a daily that can be up, that can be down, that need this, that need that, they need support, they need deal mechanics, they need a problem fixed or a code crack. So for me, I think my biggest challenge is time. But I’m really trying to be mindful of it.

 

and use my time really wisely, but I’m very emotional and it’s something that I’m trying to improve on. I want everything to be perfect. is. Attention to detail perfectionists. So I’ve got to sometimes learn to pull back, but that’s the thing that I struggle with at the moment. I want everyone to be happy, perfect, everything on point, but there’s only so much I can do.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (33:30)

of your coaching.

 

Leave that at the door!

 

And that perfectionism trait, and I know it, only too well, leaves you being your own toughest master and worst enemy. However, not delivering to that level or presenting to that level or showing up at that level is more stressful.

 

LANA SAMUELS (33:57)

Yeah, very true

 

Very much.

 

Very true. I couldn’t say it better myself. I’d rather have that pressure than not do it, because if I wasn’t doing it, I probably wouldn’t be able to get out of bed.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:17)

So you’ve been recognised as one of the top 100 agents in Australia now. Yes. You’ve got to that level. How much pressure comes with staying at that level?

 

LANA SAMUELS (34:29)

I think it’s what you put on yourself. No one puts pressure on me like I put on myself. So it’s a huge accolade, something that I’m incredibly proud of because there’s not many females on that list and not many females under 40 on that list. Not the stats off the top of my head, but from when I looked at it, I thought, wow, there’s not a lot of women in here and there should be a lot more because there’s so many incredible operators within my industry. Look, it’s, it’s an incredible,

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:44)

Do you that’s

 

LANA SAMUELS (34:59)

accolade as I said, but the pressure is you just got to perform for your clients daily and those awards and those celebrations come along the way. It’s not why I do it. Exactly right. Exactly right. So it’s great, but you keep it moving. It’s on to the next.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (35:08)

Then you’re only as good as you last year.

 

So be remiss being the Power of Women podcast not to talk about females in a male-dominated industry. And I don’t want to overplay it, but it is in the wheelhouse of Power of Women. And particularly at the top end, which is where you’re playing, it’s largely male-dominated. I could reel off the ones in our neck of the woods, and they’re all male. How hard has it been

 

breaking into that space and how have your competitors responded?

 

LANA SAMUELS (35:52)

That’s a great question. It has been hard. ⁓ There’s one situation that really stands out as soon as you ask that question. had a bit of a moment last year. I had a very good client of mine ⁓ come to me and say, I had a bit of a moment with a competitor of yours the other day. And I said, really? He said, yeah, you know, I brought you up and he was a friend of his and he said, you know, Lana’s doing really well. You know, she’s…

 

So recently for a friend of mine, there was some sort of story that he was saying and the male agent said, yeah, it’s because she’s a little bit too close to the husbands, if you know what I mean. And it broke my heart hearing that and still even saying that now really upsets me.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (36:38)

That’s

 

the throwaway male line that’s got to be sex implied for a female to be successful.

 

LANA SAMUELS (36:43)

young

 

female in my industry to be successful and it’s not something that I’ve really spoken about.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (36:50)

Free all emotions.

 

LANA SAMUELS (36:52)

emotional about it and I was angry as well and I really I kind of fought back hard I thought do I call this guy I told my husband he was horrified and so upset because he’s seen the sacrifices and he’s seen you know the hours that I do and the tears along the way and all the things that we as a team have sacrificed for me to be sitting where I am. Team, and Yeah such a slap in the face and just such a low blow.

 

I started really kicking his ass in listing appointments and taking more business from him. I to mom, I spoke to dad and I spoke to people within my nucleus and said, what would you do? And think it was mom that said, don’t do anything, just silence and show him how good you really are. That’s, you know, it was very,

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (37:26)

Money speaks fully

 

LANA SAMUELS (37:43)

easy to pick up the phone and make that call I was very close and I thought, no, I’m going to be a real lady about this. I’m going to show you. I’m going to show you how good I actually am. And, you know, it’s funny. I think he knows that I know. We have never had the conversation. I’m really polite to him when I see him because reputation is everything. I said earlier, you’ve got one shot and I want to be. Yeah. I just think, look, you’re going to say that because you’re threatened. And mum always says it’s when they stop talking about you. That’s when you should be worried.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:11)

That’s exactly right.

 

LANA SAMUELS (38:12)

You

 

know, so if they’re talking it’s a good thing. When they stop you might be in bit of trouble.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:18)

So do you feel the industry is shifting now?

 

LANA SAMUELS (38:21)

Definitely. And I’ve really seen it in our business. We’ve got over 50 % of our agents are female within the company, which is amazing. Marty. Marty’s been a driver and pioneer of really amplifying women and pushing us and.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:33)

Who’s driving that?

 

And he has sticked.

 

LANA SAMUELS (38:42)

getting us as much limelight as we can. I all the women are pushing it and we’ve got incredible female auctioneers and just so many beautiful personalities and strong independent women within the company.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:53)

don’t think I’ve seen a female auctioneer in action.

 

LANA SAMUELS (38:57)

They’re very good. Yeah. See our girls are unbelievable. yeah, it’s definitely changing diet. You know, even when I look back five years ago, even in the business, there was only a handful of us females, a lot of men, but there’s a lot of women coming through the ranks now and a lot of women.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:13)

And your social media will be playing a significant role in that.

 

LANA SAMUELS (39:18)

Thank I get a lot of women from across Australia messaging me, know, saying, you’ve really inspired me. I got into real estate because of you and you’ve, you know, shown me that I can be myself and that’s so touching and beautiful to hear that. And, you know, I get messages daily. Nellie’s started creating a bit of a scrapbook of all the beautiful messages that I’ve received over the years and it’s really, really special.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:42)

So what would you like to see change still? What still needs to happen?

 

LANA SAMUELS (39:47)

We’ve definitely made a lot of movement. I think it’s getting a lot better. I think women across the board in high-powered positions in real estate could really open up and change. There’s still a lot of the old school mentality out there. Us as a business, we’re very different, but I think as an industry, I think we need to open up the floor for more strong female operators and more opportunities at the top.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:14)

Yeah. So real estate aside, what advice would you give to any young woman starting to her career, pushing into a male dominated space?

 

LANA SAMUELS (40:29)

beautiful strong mentors around you, people that inspire you.

 

Don’t take no as an answer. And I would say, if you want it, you can make it happen. There’s nothing that is out of your reach. I look at where I started and what I’m doing today. I knew where I wanted to go. I set a really clear timeline of what I wanted to hit and I made it happen and I got my head down and did it. So nothing’s impossible. If you want it, go and get it.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:38)

Yeah. ⁓

 

My last question for you today, Lana, is what is a phrase that defines you?

 

LANA SAMUELS (41:07)

what is the phrase that defines me? That’s a great one.

 

I think just I’m a hard worker. Anyone that’s worked with me knows that I give 150 % to everything I do and if I can’t, I won’t do it. I’m all in. Yep.

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (41:27)

Brilliant. Lana, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. know hearing what you’ve done and how you’ve done it is going to be inspirational for so many women listening to this because age aside, you’ve broken into a male-dominated space. You have done it in record time to the level of managing director and you have

 

held your head high and taken the high road when individuals from the not so fair sex have been not so fair. Thank you. And I have no doubt that you’ll be taking their business away from them any time soon. So congratulations.

 

LANA SAMUELS (42:14)

Thank you for all your beautiful support over the years. From the bottom of my heart. ⁓

 

DI GILLETT – HOST (42:19)

It’s easy to give, So that is absolutely wonderful. But it is a reminder of how sort of blending my past career with my new career in amplifying women’s voices comes together. And you’re a great example of that. thank you. And thank you for listening. Until next time.

 

LANA SAMUELS (42:36)

Very special.

 

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Find Lana Samuels at:

Website https://www.whitefoxrealestate.com.au/team/lana-samuels/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lana.samuels/?hl=en

 

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Unlocking the Power of Emotional Intelligence

Unlocking the Power of Emotional Intelligence

by | Oct 6, 2025 | Female Empowerment, Leadership, Podcast For Women

What really separates the leaders who inspire from those who fail? According to Amy Jacobson, it isn’t IQ. It’s EQ.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett is joined by emotional intelligence and human behaviour specialist Amy Jacobson to explore how EQ changes the way we lead, connect, and build culture.

Amy draws on her expertise as a keynote speaker, program facilitator, and twice Wiley-published author (Emotional Intelligence and The Emotional Intelligence Advantage) to break down misconceptions about EQ and show how it can be strengthened.

 

In this episode, we explore:

➜ The difference between EQ and IQ — and why the how and why matter more than the what.

➜ How empathy is both a strength and a risk — and how to avoid being a pushover.

➜ Why toxic positivity erodes trust and damages workplace culture.

➜ Real-life stories of leaders who improved their EQ and transformed their careers.

➜How balancing IQ and EQ shapes better hiring, teamwork, and leadership.

 

This episode is a reminder that success is not about perfection or constant positivity — it’s about being real, empathetic, and willing to grow.

 

Amy said:

“Success is happiness.”

“Success is happiness.”

“Empathy is one of the greatest skills you can build — but it’s exhausting if you try to use it in every situation.”

 

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here 👇

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

AMY (00:00)

So I believe success is happiness. And when I say that, I mean, you need to dance like you’re in Jimmy Fallon in a lipsink battle. You want to eat the chicken wings in public and lick your fingers and not be embarrassed at all. You’re going to laugh at yourself because it keeps you grounded, but it also keeps you light. You want to eat the cookies. No one wants, no one has to have the cookies. We eat it because we want to, and they’re delicious.

 

and give out hugs and compliments like happiness depends on it.

 

DI (00:31)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table for you to follow and subscribe and be part of every fearless, game-changing story that we tell here at the Power of Women. So after more than 40 years in corporate life and

 

30 of those as an executive search specialist, I have spent countless hours assessing executives’ experience, their cultural fit, their behavioural traits and their emotional intelligence. Some of them have it, some of them don’t. And the real differentiator isn’t just IQ or the technical skill because it is EQ, how the person influences, how they adapt, how they connect, that really makes the difference.

 

So joining me today is Amy Jacobson, emotional intelligence and human behavior specialist, keynote speaker. She’s also a sought after media commentator, a program facilitator and two time Wiley author. And together Amy and I are going to explore what emotional intelligence really means, how it shapes leadership and culture and tease out a few workplace scenarios, the good and the bad.

 

And we’re also going to explore how you can approve your own EQ if in fact it’s at the lower end of the scale. Amy Jacobson, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

 

AMY (02:06)

Thank you so much for having me, Di.

 

DI (02:09)

Amy, congrats on your latest book. I can see the placard in the back. Just give us a bit of a sense of what it’s about.

 

AMY (02:16)

So this one is focusing on two of the toughest areas that we tend to avoid as human beings. So it’s really around that managing the change, which we know is happening every day, right? So how do we get in and really manage or master that change area in line with the way that the mind works? So I like to say rather than change management, bringing in that change intelligence that aligns to the wiring of our mind and also the other areas of difficult conversations.

 

I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone die who loves having a difficult conversation so we tend to avoid them and this book really dives into the reasons why we avoid them but also the impact that we have when we’re having them because a lot of the times it’s actually us that make the conversation difficult not so much the other person.

 

DI (03:07)

Mind you, I think sometimes, I’m not sure that I’ve met anybody who likes having a difficult conversation, but I’ve certainly met plenty of people who make a conversation difficult.

 

AMY (03:17)

Yes,

 

that’s very true, very true.

 

DI (03:20)

Yeah. So Amy, for the listener grappling with emotional intelligence and not to conflate it with IQ, what exactly do you mean when you say EQ, the abridged version of emotional intelligence?

 

AMY (03:40)

So think the biggest differentiator when we look at IQ and EQ is that your IQ is what you know and what you can do. So it is really like the skills that are in it’s that technical part. It’s a real logical part coming into play where your EQ or your emotional intelligence is the how and why you do it. So these are the real reasons, the reasons why you choose to say that or you do that or how you actually deliver it to the people around you. ⁓

 

We’re talking about that space of understanding what makes us tick. What is the wirings? What is the values beliefs that have made up who we are today that is really driving us to take those steps and not just understanding what makes us tick, but also understanding what we can control in this world, right? Because there’s only one real thing we can control and that is ourselves and how we choose to respond.

 

And it’s not until we understand ourselves in that detailed way that we can then get out of our own head and start to understand that everyone’s different and it is okay for people to be different. So that emotional intelligence allows us to be able to get out of our head and think, okay, this person is why you’re different to me. That’s okay. What is the impact I’m having on them? And what is the best way that we can work together to get the end result that we desire?

 

DI (05:03)

So are you actually born with it or I’m sure we feel some people are born without it? How does it play out?

 

AMY (05:12)

So it’s a bit of a mixed hour. There are definitely people that are naturally born with higher levels of emotional intelligence and I think we tend to see emotional intelligence a lot more in young children where we encourage them to face their emotions, to deal with their emotions, to talk them through, to care about the people around them and really be a decent human being as they’re growing up.

 

As we get older though, we tend to decrease that focus on emotional intelligence and we start to bring those areas of, you know, that materialistic success into our lives and you know, how are we, are we good enough? Are we contributing enough? And this is where the emotional intelligence starts to get blurred. people are definitely born with it and some people higher levels than others. And you tend to find people who

 

do have those naturally higher levels of emotional intelligence, can’t quite understand why other people don’t get it, because they don’t quite realize what they’ve got. They’re kind of like, isn’t this what everyone does? Like, why would you do anything different? But we have shown as well that emotional intelligence is a skill. So it is something you can learn, like any other it’s learnable. Absolutely it is. Is it easy?

 

No, it’s not easy because when you’re learning emotional intelligence, you’re challenging the wiring that’s already embedded in your mind. So all of those values of belief.

 

DI (06:40)

You’re

 

probably getting some pretty tough feedback too.

 

AMY (06:42)

Right, so it’s definitely not easy, but absolutely it is teachable. You’ve just got to be really committed to making a difference.

 

DI (06:50)

So we’ve all had leaders that we think, well they think they’re self-aware and we’ve got a different view. How do you break through that denial? How do you actually even suggest to somebody that their EQ’s at the lower end of the scale?

 

AMY (07:09)

You’ve got to bring it to their to make them aware of it right but if you if you are bringing it to them and showing them examples and having that chat around them and they are not accepting that and they’re not aware of it and they stay in that denial there’s very little you can do because you cannot force someone to be emotionally intelligent that’s just not possible. All you can do is influence them so when you

 

when you especially when you’re working with somebody who is an emotionally intelligent, especially in a leadership role, it doesn’t mean that you should in turn not be emotionally intelligent back. And I think that’s probably one of the biggest mistakes we make. it’s, it’s that conversation. ⁓ I have it with people all the time, right? Cause they’re like, this person did this or this person has doesn’t have the decency to say hello or, know, to connect. And my first question back is always,

 

DI (08:07)

It’s like, you know, the person, yeah, the person that you go past and you say, how are you? the person who actually goes past you and says, how are you? And before you’ve even had a chance to respond, they’re gone. I reckon their EQ is way down the Richter scale.

 

AMY (08:23)

I mean they’re ticking a box right? They’re going through it’s kind of like that automatic they say it they don’t mean it they they’re really they’re not even waiting for an answer and I think it’s it it also comes down to in that workplace we are functioning a lot on our conscious mind because we are just go go go we’re in an environment where it doesn’t seem anything

 

but acceptable to be busy and to be in a fast pace and to be rushed. So unfortunately we’re just, we’re not tapping into that subconscious mind as much as we could be and as much as we should be. And therefore that conscious mind, like the subconscious mind is where the emotional intelligence lives. So if we’re not tapping into that area of our mind, we’re just ticking boxes.

 

DI (09:11)

So what’s the correlation between being emotionally intelligent and being empathetic? Because I’d be interested to understand if the correlation is really close, ⁓ can you be at risk of being a soft touch or a pushover if you’re highly emotionally intelligent and too empathetic?

 

AMY (09:32)

So empathy is a part of emotional intelligence. I believe empathy is one of the greatest skills you can build. I really do. But empathy is exhausting. And I think to be empathetic in every single situation, it’s not realistic and it is exhausting. And like you said, Di, you can become a bit of a pushover. It’s that fine line between being liked and being respected.

 

So with that empathy, and I guess this comes to having a really good understanding of the difference between empathy and sympathy, because sympathy has that, even that level of pity or that bit of care where you’re going, wow, this is terrible. I really wish this wasn’t happening to this person and I feel for this person, where empathy is simply recognizing the emotion that the person is feeling and thinking.

 

When was the last time I felt that emotion? What is the best thing that somebody could possibly say to me rather than what is the worst thing? So I think some people that get caught in that empathy loop are actually in an empathy and sympathy loop where they are bringing a lot of that sympathy in because having fantastic empathy gives you the ability to be able to move forward and help to find solutions. Like how do we fix this? How do we move forward?

 

You’re not in your own head, you’re there to support them, but you’re actually there to support them to progress, not just to loop and loop and loop in that current state of mind.

 

DI (11:07)

So then on the flip side, and we’ve seen it happen where people with low EQ are in fact still the best person for the job, for whatever reason, or might be the last man standing in a selection process sometimes, which can be the case. yeah, so we see people with poor EQ get promoted anyway. What’s the impact on a culture when that happens?

 

AMY (11:24)

Peace!

 

It depends what role they’re in. I always like to say that if I was going in for brain surgery, I would want my surgeon to have lower levels of emotional intelligence.

 

Because when I’m in that situation and they are operating on my brain, I don’t want them to be thinking about Amy is the mother of two kids and she’s the wife of Mark. And I want them to be thinking about me as a vessel that they’re just going through that same motion that they do every day and really keeping focused on what they can do. But anytime you’re interacting with human beings when they’re awake, that emotional intelligence is going to create the relationships, right?

 

If you put aside those few really specific roles that ⁓ I guess look to the ability to be able to shut down your emotions, to be able to do it really well and look at the majority of other roles out there. When we get leaders and specifically CEOs in roles that lack emotional intelligence, we’re getting to the point now where people are just not willing to put up with it. People are walking because the culture is turning toxic.

 

DI (12:44)

More so now than generations before us, I think.

 

AMY (12:48)

definitely die and what I’m seeing more than anything now is that people have the genuine interest for emotional intelligence is continuing to rise and it will continue to rise especially with AI coming in but what I’m starting to notice now is that the more organizations that are providing emotional intelligence training for their teams it doesn’t just help them build their emotional intelligence but it also makes it really obvious then to them the people that

 

aren’t being emotionally intelligent. And I know there’s been a couple of times now where I’ve had, you know, CEOs or C-Sweeps that have said, no, no, we’re not going to do the training. We’ll just let everybody else do it because you know, we think they really. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the people walking out of these training and going, well, hang on a second. Like our CEO and our C-Sweep, they’re the ones that are lacking emotionally intelligence. They’re doing exactly what Amy said not to do.

 

DI (13:32)

They feel exposed.

 

AMY (13:46)

And it’s just through that lack of awareness, right? So I think that we are becoming that place that is less tolerant to people lacking emotional intelligence because we know that success is, it is that balance between EQ and IQ. You can’t have one without the other. You need that balance.

 

DI (14:07)

Yeah, but that example you just gave is interesting because they’ve chosen the C-suite, in this instance that you’ve just cited, has chosen not to turn up. So can you use EQ as a leverage in

 

managing an environment. So if you’re holding back and not giving and that’s your style, does that mean you have low EQ or can you in certain circumstances or certain settings choose simply not to display it?

 

AMY (14:49)

It comes down to being real, right? Exactly what you’re saying in that is what is true to your style. So if you have somebody who is quite, you know, quite an introverted person or, you know, talks only when they feel there’s something to say and, you know, they’re really respected for that, then I wouldn’t call that low emotional intelligence. I would say they know who they are and they know their comfort area and they add to the conversation when it’s relevant.

 

where if you’ve got somebody who is quite an extrovert and they’re sitting there and they’re choosing not to say anything and in their mind is just hundreds and hundreds of thoughts and disagreement and challenges in their mind and they’re choosing not to say anything, then that’s not emotionally intelligent. You’ve got to be real to who you are and you’ve got to make sure that what is coming out of your mouth, the actions that you’re doing is aligned to your mind. So people can see straight through that.

 

that kind of that false exterior, right? And this is why I’m having so many conversations at the moment around that toxic positivity and that being emotionally intelligent isn’t being positive every second of every day because that’s not what life is. It’s being real, being authentic. And that is how you build trust and build respect. So I think there are some incredible CEOs out there that choose to

 

sit back and choose to let people take the lead and, you know, choose to be more of that quiet background and they’re very emotionally intelligent people. But there’s also some other ones that choose to sit back and let them do the work that it’s not emotionally intelligent at all because it’s going against everything that they’re thinking, that they’re saying, that they’re supporting. So it’s going to impact the relationship. There’s no template, I guess, to aligning to being an emotionally intelligent.

 

DI (16:44)

So tell us about toxic positivity. How’s that playing out in the workplace? What are you seeing?

 

AMY (16:52)

we’re seeing is people that are coming in and just and not being real like they’re coming in and saying you know we need to pretend like every day is amazing like everything’s great you know something happens and you know we use the example in one of the situations where you’ve got a company who’s laying off 200 staff and going but everything’s fine like everything’s okay like let’s just get on let’s just be happy let’s like go no so it’s at that point where we’ve got to understand that

 

There’s no such thing as a good or bad emotion. There is an appropriateness of an emotion and a severity level. So in some instances, upset, anger, fear, that is the right emotion. you just got to… Appropriate. That’s right. Like you’ve just got to get the intensity or the severity level right. But what we’ve got some organizations coming in that don’t have fantastic cultures,

 

that are avoiding the difficult conversations that are avoiding the honesty and just sugarcoating it all with everything is amazing let’s just pretend everything’s happy and when these people are coming in and being this this fake positive what it’s turning into is a lack of trust a lack of respect it’s it’s people looking going well you’re not real that’s not realistic and i can’t relate to that so therefore i’m

 

I’m just not relating to you at all. And yeah, once you’ve lost trust in a work environment or in any relationship, it’s never going to end. Yeah.

 

DI (18:19)

It’s all over.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s be honest, can you shift the dial on somebody’s EQ if it’s really at the bottom end of the spectrum?

 

AMY (18:32)

seen it happen on a few occasions. Again is it easy? No it really isn’t because it really needs a full makeover in your mind. Like we are talking you know habits and beliefs that you’ve had for so long that your mind is naturally going to defer to in situations. It’s about being able to change those.

 

This is a long-term commitment, right? And usually we see it happen when people hit a really ⁓ big moment in their life that’s had a big impact that really wakes them up to them realizing just how much of a, let’s say, poor or like it’s a person who is seriously lacking that ability to be able to connect to that the human being. So you hear stories about when people lose everything that they have built or

 

when people have got really sick or when something really devastating has happened in their life that has kind of jolted people out and they’ve realized that that deep embedded wiring in their mind is actually not the best way for them to be. So they put in the work to actually rewire. But when you’re looking at a workplace, I’ll go into sessions and we’ll run a session and at the end I’ll always provide feedback to say, this is my thoughts on the people that were at the session.

 

These people here have great emotional intelligence these people here really quite lack it But they’re aware of it and if they’re aware of it, then you can definitely help them to work on it But if they’re not aware of it You’re gonna need you’ve got a choice. Yeah, you’ve got to either accept them as they are knowing They are not going to improve and things are not going to change or you need to move them on It’s it’s a tough decision, but it’s it’s one or the other

 

DI (20:21)

So you and I have been talking for about 15 or 20 minutes. Can you tell from that whether I actually have whatever level of EQ?

 

AMY (20:35)

Yes, I can gauge. mean, I think that most of us can. I think even in those first couple of minutes when you start to speak to someone, I think you can straight away start to see the mindset that they’re in and their ability to be not in their own head. And I think that’s the biggest giveaway, right? When you can see that somebody is…

 

DI (20:40)

I’m stealing myself.

 

AMY (21:01)

listening to what you’re saying, they’re curious, you can tell by this conversation die that it’s not rattled off questions, it’s you listening to the answers and then taking the conversation in the direction that the answers are actually leading us. That’s the kind of display of emotional intelligence but I truly do believe that I don’t think there is such a thing as an emotionally intelligent person. I think that

 

in every situation we have a choice to make. either choose to respond in an emotionally intelligent way or we choose not to. And while this conversation I would say absolutely, I know that there are times when I enter into a conversation and my emotional brain takes over my logical brain and I could step back at the end and think, wow, I wasn’t very emotionally intelligent there. So I think it is that it’s that ability to be able to apply it in this situation.

 

But what is our biggest measure is that those times when we don’t get it right, it’s what we choose to do then. So in those moments when we step back and we say, okay, my emotional brain took over then, I wasn’t very logical, I didn’t respond in a great way, and I wasn’t emotionally intelligent, it’s having that ability to be able to go back to that person or go back to that conversation and say, you know what?

 

that didn’t go well, like I didn’t do well myself in that situation, can we try again? Or can we talk about this a little bit further? And just simply having the ability to apologize when we don’t get it right, that’s our true measure of emotional intelligence.

 

DI (22:40)

And sometimes going back and apologising may not be the right thing to do. The delivery that you intended that was hard-hitting and impactful and possibly negative was where you wanted to leave it. That’s not necessarily not being emotionally intelligent. That’s knowing when to apply it in what measure and when it’s appropriate.

 

AMY (22:55)

Absolutely.

 

DI (23:06)

I know and there will be people who will remember being on the receiving end of me doing just that.

 

AMY (23:11)

And that’s exactly right that’s coming back to that fake positivity right like that emotional intelligence at times is going to make people feel uncomfortable It is gonna make them squirm a little bit. It’s gonna be something they don’t want to hear But you know that they need to hear it You know that in that moment they’re gonna struggle and they’re gonna struggle a lot But you know an hour two hours a day a week later

 

they’re going to get what they needed out of that and that’s going to help them for the right reasons. We can only hope, ⁓

 

DI (23:43)

We hope.

 

Absolutely. So Amy, let’s come back in a moment and do a little mini masterclass on EQ if we could.

 

AMY (23:56)

Sounds great.

 

DI (23:59)

If

 

you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

 

So time for a bit of a ⁓ EQ master class. So grab a pen because Amy’s going to take us through some ideas here. So let’s say an individual’s been told that they lack EQ and you you might be resisting the urge to push back in whatever way about that. What’s the first step we could take to start building it up?

 

AMY (24:39)

The first thing we can do is just observe and start to be aware of the impact we’re having on the people around us. So really being able to look at those situations and take the moment to pause and just be observant, be present and see the reactions that you’re getting from other people is going to be really key to understand what it is that’s actually coming out, maybe not in the way that you intended it to.

 

or also to understand what is actually driving it. So where is it coming from? So it’s always going to be that pause moment and then kind of like, I guess it’s that reflection on yourself, right? Okay, what role did I just play in that situation? How did that person feel at the end of it? How did they respond? What is it that I triggered there? So it’s really, it’s starting to own who you are and the impact that you’re having on the people around you.

 

DI (25:34)

So I’ve observed that I wasn’t well received or I’ve observed that I’ve caused discomfort or upset or anger in the other person. So I’ve taken the pause. I’ve started to think it through. How do I then apply that in a more emotionally intelligent way? Is that the next step?

 

AMY (25:59)

Yep, absolutely. So it’s at this point that you get out of your own head, right? So once we understand, okay, what impact are we having? What is driving that? What are the values and beliefs that are driving it? Why am I reacting that way? Then it’s about getting out of your own head and realizing that this situation is not about me. So what is the best way that I can communicate with this person to help them get the best outcome or the outcome that they desire?

 

So this is at this point where, you know, if I use a difficult conversation, for example, when we head into a difficult conversation and we lack emotional intelligence, we are very much in that fear in our mind of the fear of conflict, the fear of unknown, how are they going to respond to me? And we kind of go into that conversation with that defense mechanism on ourself to make sure that we’re okay in the situation.

 

When we start to apply emotional intelligence and we go into a difficult conversation, we realize that the conversation is not about us at all. It’s about the person in front of us. So how can we speak? How can we communicate to the person in front of us based on their emotional feelings right now to get the right outcome? And what is the outcome that we desire?

 

Because when we lack emotional intelligence, a lot of the times when we enter into these interactions or conversations, the outcome that we tend to desire is to win and to be right. So in our head, if you’re in a conversation and you’re looking to win or you’re looking to be right, then you are not applying emotional intelligence. It’s at that point having the ability to be able to go, okay, this is not about

 

DI (27:27)

Hmm

 

AMY (27:41)

someone being right and wrong. This is not about a winner and a loser. This is about having a conversation so that we understand how we got here and what the future looks like. How do we move past this? What do we want this to look like in the future? So it’s really that communication is having the ability to be able to start recognizing other people’s emotions and think,

 

What is the best thing that I could possibly do interacting with this person to get them through this and get to the right outcome?

 

DI (28:14)

So am I seeking feedback as to how I’m going on my master class journey? Am I asking people what they think?

 

AMY (28:21)

Thinking feedback is an interesting one, right? Like I’m a huge advocate. You should always be looking for feedback. But I think my tip for everyone is be very careful in the way that you ask for feedback because these days I see a lot of people ask for feedback but don’t give people permission to truly give them feedback. It would be kind of like, you know, at the end of this session me saying to you, oh, that was great. I went well, didn’t I? How did you think I went? Did I do good?

 

You know what mean? giving permission for feedback. So yes, feedback.

 

DI (28:51)

That’s not taking feedback.

 

That’s words in your own mouth.

 

AMY (28:58)

And that’s me just saying, just want you to confirm my ego right now. That’s what I want you to do. So when you’re asking for feedback and the best thing you can possibly do to be vulnerable and to grow your emotional intelligence is to get that feedback. But you want to do it in a way that you give permission. So you want to really come in with that vulnerability to say,

 

know, die. I’m doing a lot of podcasts at the moment and I know that I’m not quite nailing them and I’m really working on improving them. Can you give me two tips on how you think I could do better for my next podcast? So that’s the difference between that compared to the first one. That is truly asking for feedback and seeking feedback as opposed to ticking a box and please stroke my ego so I can continue to do what I want to

 

DI (29:48)

Yeah, we see plenty of that. So have you seen ⁓ examples in the workplace without names? Could you give us some examples of where somebody who’s been out to shift the dial on their EQ for the better actually positively impact their career in some substantive way?

 

AMY (30:11)

Yeah, yeah, there is one person particularly that I’m thinking of. The first time I met him in a session, his ego was really, really quite evident. And you could see that he constantly needed to say something. It was kind of for that, for that very much that stroke of the ego, right? And I could even see the people around him that lacked respect for him because he really, he wasn’t welcoming any respect in a way.

 

I could see that he was quite a big personality. He was in a role that ⁓ traditionally kind of demands that level, but he’d taken it way too far. He’d been stuck in this role for quite a while and wasn’t quite understanding why. He wasn’t progressing as well. And it would have been watching him develop over, it would have been a good two to three years, but the first time that I…

 

The first time that I started to see the difference, it wasn’t in our first session, it was after he attended one of my sessions, I could see towards the end a little bit of a breakthrough, but it was at the second session and the part that hit home for him, even though we were focused on the workplace, he actually came up to me on one of the breaks and said, ⁓ my goodness, Amy, I have just realized how bad I am to my wife.

 

from an emotional intelligence. Crazy, right? That is what hit him. He straight away, he said it was like this and even the look on his face was just pure awareness and shock. He said, I have just realized what I’m doing to my wife and to my kids at home and the energy that I’m taking and the way that I’m speaking to them. And once he started to get that realization,

 

You could see the shift in the workplace as well. You could see the shift with everybody he worked with. it was like it still gives me goosebumps because it was incredible to see this person that had such a thick armor and a protection on and ego driven to just slowly unravel this. And he was he was so comfortable to be vulnerable in unwrapping it as well. Like he was quite vocal. I would get phone calls from him saying,

 

know, Amy, I just had to share this with you. I can’t believe it’s happened. And I’ve watched his career since just climb and climb and climb. And the respect level that his peers have for him now is incredible. He is a completely different man to who I met. But it’s always fascinating when it hits home first outside of work where we’re probably a little bit more raw and honest with the people that we love. And that’s where it became obvious for him.

 

DI (33:01)

And I know that, you know, the line of you can, we can teach you skill but we can’t employ somebody who’s outside of the fit for an organisation. Are you more inclined to put an emphasis on EQ or IQ in a talent acquisition setting?

 

AMY (33:24)

If I was in that talent acquisition setting, I would put a little bit more of a sway towards your EQ, but it would only be a slight sway. And I say that because I really do believe it’s the balance between IQ and EQ that we need in this world. I think that your EQ will only take you so far before you need some IQ to back it up. Your IQ also will take you so far before you need some EQ to back it up.

 

I am a big believer in there is a cultural fit for an organization and a cultural fit for a team. And that doesn’t mean a team of clones. It doesn’t mean bringing the same type of people together. It means getting the right balance and getting the different skill sets and getting the different belief, but it’s getting the right levels of emotional intelligence so that they can actively challenge each other.

 

effectively challenge each other that they can be honest that they can be vulnerable. So it’s getting that balance right and and for me that is it’s that ability to to apply your emotional intelligence in a situation and if you’ve got somebody coming into a team who does not have that ability it doesn’t matter how similar they are or how different they are it’s it’s not going to work.

 

Because human beings, number one way that we work is based on connection. And if you cannot create that connection with somebody, it’s not going to work.

 

DI (34:52)

So if we look out into the public arena today, I think we’ve got some pretty good examples of good and bad. Who would you call out as being exemplars of demonstrating great emotional intelligence?

 

AMY (35:07)

This one’s always a tough one, right? This one’s always a tough one.

 

DI (35:11)

I know the negative is easier to do because there’s plenty of that.

 

AMY (35:14)

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Look, I think there’s some people out there doing some incredible things and really showing great levels of emotional intelligence. If I don’t call out some specifics, I think if we look at industries in general, when we look at our politicians, we can tell the difference between those politicians that do show high levels of emotional intelligence versus those that don’t simply by the way that they speak.

 

DI (35:41)

Go

 

on, name me, I dare you.

 

AMY (35:44)

I’ve done it a long time ago. did it in an article and it created absolute chaos. didn’t play out well. But I think also if we start to look at even those people in public figures like those like celebrities and things like that as well. A celebrity that shows really high emotional intelligence and this is probably going to throw it out there a little bit for people as well.

 

If I look at someone who like Taylor Swift, right, who’s very much in the media at the moment, people either love her or hate her, but her ability to keep on doing what she’s doing and be able to kind of to take the emotions, to take the impact of other people and continue to go through and continue to have that care factor and never lose that level where, you know, she still introduces herself as high on Taylor just in case she didn’t know kind of thing.

 

That is showing that grounding, right? Where we find other celebrities out there that are, you know, those people that are like, you know, don’t you know who I am type thing. Like this is me, I should never need to introduce myself because everybody knows who I am. That totally lacks emotional intelligence.

 

DI (36:59)

Yeah and we see it in sportsmen, the people who you know walk off a tennis court and are happy to sign a signature and those who walk off and it’s like, no that’s beyond me.

 

AMY (37:09)

Yep, that’s and you see videos I was watching video there the day of you you’re saying about you say bolt and how he takes the time there’s one of the one of the tennis players to I don’t follow a lot of tennis but I know here at the moment

 

DI (37:24)

David

 

only recently smashed up a tennis racket but then we don’t necessarily know what the provocation’s been either.

 

AMY (37:32)

right? No, I’m more talking about it was a video of a really high level of emotional intelligence where you he was sharing the umbrella with the ball boy and is sitting down and having a conversation with the ball boy and you know that kind of thing that shows your high levels of emotional intelligence when you have the ability to do that. So in the sporting industry it’s very interesting because I think and this comes back to that area where

 

I really do believe that there’s no such thing as an emotionally intelligent person because you see in some sports people and in people in high profiles in one interview they can do really, really well. And then there could be a snippet that they caught off guard or another situation where we don’t understand the context, but it looks like they haven’t handled the situation that.

 

DI (38:21)

All in the post-production Amy, we can turn anything into something else with a little bit of a tweak.

 

AMY (38:27)

But that’s emotions right? when you don’t know what’s going on. It’s true. Emotions can be read so many different ways and when we don’t understand like you were saying, what is driving that? What’s building to that area? ⁓ We make some really big assumptions and it good.

 

DI (38:47)

Yeah, I mean we have a famous example here in Australia, I mean remember the Lindy Chamberlain case. She was judged in the court of public opinion as being guilty because her emotional display didn’t match what everybody wanted it to be.

 

AMY (39:02)

Exactly right. this is, ⁓ you know, I love this part of AI when people start to understand and realize that situations and people can’t make us feel a certain way. Like it is, you know, we react the way that we react based on the wiring in our mind. And that’s why, you know, you can grab 10 people from around the world, put them in a room and have the same thing happen to all of them. But you can have 10 different reactions. And that’s exactly right with Lindy Chamberlain, right?

 

because she didn’t have the default reaction that people were expecting straight away they said, well, she’s guilty, clearly she’s guilty. But we all respond different to situations based on our upbringing, experiences, our values and our beliefs and just how we process emotions. So those emotions can be taken and as you said, that’s where video editing works so well in the media and with reality TV shows, right? That’s why they get the rating.

 

DI (39:58)

Sure does. Yeah sure does. Hey can I just clarify you just said EI so we use the term EI and EQ. Yeah. Are they one in the same? Are they exactly the same?

 

AMY (40:12)

They’re not exactly the same. the difference between the two of them is emotional EQ is your emotional quotient. So it is your portion. Yeah, it’s the measure of your emotional intelligence where EI is the abbreviation for emotional intelligence. the two

 

DI (40:27)

Yeah

 

AMY (40:27)

Yeah,

 

the two are interchangeable. We understand what both of them mean. We know what both of them refer to. So I tend to use AI unless I’m talking about the actual measure of your emotional intelligence. But EQ, it’s well known. It aligns perfectly to IQ as well. So they’re both acceptable.

 

DI (40:47)

Got it. So let’s just as we come to a close today, if I can just pull this back a little closer to the power of women. We’re told women are naturally more empathetic and you know that’s biology and stereotype or is that really just a convenient excuse for men not to develop decent levels of EQ?

 

AMY (41:13)

it’s all of the above. I really do. think that the genetics in us, right, when you’re coming from emotional intelligence, sometimes you’ve got to do that.

 

DI (41:18)

That’s politically correct, Amy.

 

AMY (41:26)

I think it is a mixture for some people. think that there is definitely that genetics and that the world upbringing, right? And the acceptance that it’s always been that women can show more emotion and that they are the caregiver and you know, the role that we play and that it’s more acceptable for us to show emotions and less acceptable for men. I do believe that some men out there are absolutely using us as an excuse. ⁓ but I also think that there are some men out there that are

 

trapped behind that, they’re trapped behind that upbringing and the way they’ve been told or taught to react in situations. I’m seeing now though, I think we’re really breaking through this and even in the last five years, we are starting to see such a shift and it’s a positive shift. It’s a positive shift that people are talking more about emotions.

 

We’re being more honest, we’re being more upfront, we’re being more vulnerable. And I think that the men that are still sticking behind that masculinity and, you know, they don’t need to show emotions, they are starting to be called out and left behind. So I think we are going to continue.

 

DI (42:37)

I think that’s right.

 

In your opinion, what’s the most significant challenge women are facing and how can they use emotional intelligence to shift the dial?

 

AMY (42:50)

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge that we are facing and we’ve been facing it for a while now is to be confident and comfortable in who we are, to be real. And when I look at the workplace, I think for so long women have, they’ve put success down to bringing in that masculinity, to be one of the boys, to act a certain way, to have a conversation a certain way, to go up against those that.

 

that gender ⁓ inequality that we’ve had. And I think our biggest challenge now is knowing that success in a workplace, it does not come in a blueprint. You do not have to look a certain way. You do not have to speak a certain way. You do not have to need to act a certain way. It is getting women to be truly comfortable and confident in who they are, to understand their wiring, to understand what makes them different, but also

 

know that that difference, it’s a superpower as long as you apply it the right way. So have that ability to just still be, still be connected with your emotions. It’s not a bad thing to show emotions in a workplace, but just make sure you’ve got control of them. So feel the emotions, face the emotions, but know how to move on and have that confidence that every emotion that is coming out, you are feeling it for a reason and be okay with that.

 

but just know how to control it and how to move forward and just be your amazing self. There’s so many incredible women out there that I see when they get promoted or go into a new role that feel like they have to change. And it’s like, no, you were promoted for a reason. That’s right. Don’t change who you are. They promote you because they want that person in there and you don’t need to look the same and act the same as everybody else around the table. Be yourself.

 

DI (44:35)

for a reason.

 

Yeah, love it. Amy, how does somebody find you if they want to connect and work on their EQ?

 

AMY (44:55)

onto my website that’s the best place to find me that’s amyjaggibson.com.au on there you’ll find an insights page that has so many articles videos podcasts radio TV all of that kind of stuff that will help you to start build it you’ll also find my two books on there as well or links to be able to purchase the books and find me on social media too I this may come as a shock to you but I love meeting people so

 

You know, the more people that reach out, the better. I do love a good chin wag.

 

DI (45:26)

Beautiful. Well, we’ll put all of those links into the show notes and in particular your website so that they can find you. ⁓ EQ showing emotional intelligence is probably sharing this episode with somebody who you think might just need a little poke in the ribs. That it could be ⁓ a subtle way of being emotionally intelligent and giving somebody a bit of a rev up. But thanks for joining us. Thanks for…

 

listening through to the end of this particular episode. We’re sort of changing the topics around a bit and curating the mix. So I’d love you to let us know is there something you want to hear more of and only the other week we had our first male guest on which was an emotionally intelligent decision on our behalf to say we’re not going to be just one-sided in talking to the women and in fact it all jokes aside it was

 

one of the most insightful ⁓ discussions I’ve had with a truly emotionally intelligent male who fully understands the impact of how women and men can work better together. Until next time.

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