FULL TRANSCRIPT:

AMY (00:00)

So I believe success is happiness. And when I say that, I mean, you need to dance like you’re in Jimmy Fallon in a lipsink battle. You want to eat the chicken wings in public and lick your fingers and not be embarrassed at all. You’re going to laugh at yourself because it keeps you grounded, but it also keeps you light. You want to eat the cookies. No one wants, no one has to have the cookies. We eat it because we want to, and they’re delicious.

and give out hugs and compliments like happiness depends on it.

DI (00:31)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table for you to follow and subscribe and be part of every fearless, game-changing story that we tell here at the Power of Women. So after more than 40 years in corporate life and

30 of those as an executive search specialist, I have spent countless hours assessing executives’ experience, their cultural fit, their behavioural traits and their emotional intelligence. Some of them have it, some of them don’t. And the real differentiator isn’t just IQ or the technical skill because it is EQ, how the person influences, how they adapt, how they connect, that really makes the difference.

So joining me today is Amy Jacobson, emotional intelligence and human behavior specialist, keynote speaker. She’s also a sought after media commentator, a program facilitator and two time Wiley author. And together Amy and I are going to explore what emotional intelligence really means, how it shapes leadership and culture and tease out a few workplace scenarios, the good and the bad.

And we’re also going to explore how you can approve your own EQ if in fact it’s at the lower end of the scale. Amy Jacobson, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

AMY (02:06)

Thank you so much for having me, Di.

DI (02:09)

Amy, congrats on your latest book. I can see the placard in the back. Just give us a bit of a sense of what it’s about.

AMY (02:16)

So this one is focusing on two of the toughest areas that we tend to avoid as human beings. So it’s really around that managing the change, which we know is happening every day, right? So how do we get in and really manage or master that change area in line with the way that the mind works? So I like to say rather than change management, bringing in that change intelligence that aligns to the wiring of our mind and also the other areas of difficult conversations.

I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone die who loves having a difficult conversation so we tend to avoid them and this book really dives into the reasons why we avoid them but also the impact that we have when we’re having them because a lot of the times it’s actually us that make the conversation difficult not so much the other person.

DI (03:07)

Mind you, I think sometimes, I’m not sure that I’ve met anybody who likes having a difficult conversation, but I’ve certainly met plenty of people who make a conversation difficult.

AMY (03:17)

Yes,

that’s very true, very true.

DI (03:20)

Yeah. So Amy, for the listener grappling with emotional intelligence and not to conflate it with IQ, what exactly do you mean when you say EQ, the abridged version of emotional intelligence?

AMY (03:40)

So think the biggest differentiator when we look at IQ and EQ is that your IQ is what you know and what you can do. So it is really like the skills that are in it’s that technical part. It’s a real logical part coming into play where your EQ or your emotional intelligence is the how and why you do it. So these are the real reasons, the reasons why you choose to say that or you do that or how you actually deliver it to the people around you. ⁓

We’re talking about that space of understanding what makes us tick. What is the wirings? What is the values beliefs that have made up who we are today that is really driving us to take those steps and not just understanding what makes us tick, but also understanding what we can control in this world, right? Because there’s only one real thing we can control and that is ourselves and how we choose to respond.

And it’s not until we understand ourselves in that detailed way that we can then get out of our own head and start to understand that everyone’s different and it is okay for people to be different. So that emotional intelligence allows us to be able to get out of our head and think, okay, this person is why you’re different to me. That’s okay. What is the impact I’m having on them? And what is the best way that we can work together to get the end result that we desire?

DI (05:03)

So are you actually born with it or I’m sure we feel some people are born without it? How does it play out?

AMY (05:12)

So it’s a bit of a mixed hour. There are definitely people that are naturally born with higher levels of emotional intelligence and I think we tend to see emotional intelligence a lot more in young children where we encourage them to face their emotions, to deal with their emotions, to talk them through, to care about the people around them and really be a decent human being as they’re growing up.

As we get older though, we tend to decrease that focus on emotional intelligence and we start to bring those areas of, you know, that materialistic success into our lives and you know, how are we, are we good enough? Are we contributing enough? And this is where the emotional intelligence starts to get blurred. people are definitely born with it and some people higher levels than others. And you tend to find people who

do have those naturally higher levels of emotional intelligence, can’t quite understand why other people don’t get it, because they don’t quite realize what they’ve got. They’re kind of like, isn’t this what everyone does? Like, why would you do anything different? But we have shown as well that emotional intelligence is a skill. So it is something you can learn, like any other it’s learnable. Absolutely it is. Is it easy?

No, it’s not easy because when you’re learning emotional intelligence, you’re challenging the wiring that’s already embedded in your mind. So all of those values of belief.

DI (06:40)

You’re

probably getting some pretty tough feedback too.

AMY (06:42)

Right, so it’s definitely not easy, but absolutely it is teachable. You’ve just got to be really committed to making a difference.

DI (06:50)

So we’ve all had leaders that we think, well they think they’re self-aware and we’ve got a different view. How do you break through that denial? How do you actually even suggest to somebody that their EQ’s at the lower end of the scale?

AMY (07:09)

You’ve got to bring it to their to make them aware of it right but if you if you are bringing it to them and showing them examples and having that chat around them and they are not accepting that and they’re not aware of it and they stay in that denial there’s very little you can do because you cannot force someone to be emotionally intelligent that’s just not possible. All you can do is influence them so when you

when you especially when you’re working with somebody who is an emotionally intelligent, especially in a leadership role, it doesn’t mean that you should in turn not be emotionally intelligent back. And I think that’s probably one of the biggest mistakes we make. it’s, it’s that conversation. ⁓ I have it with people all the time, right? Cause they’re like, this person did this or this person has doesn’t have the decency to say hello or, know, to connect. And my first question back is always,

DI (08:07)

It’s like, you know, the person, yeah, the person that you go past and you say, how are you? the person who actually goes past you and says, how are you? And before you’ve even had a chance to respond, they’re gone. I reckon their EQ is way down the Richter scale.

AMY (08:23)

I mean they’re ticking a box right? They’re going through it’s kind of like that automatic they say it they don’t mean it they they’re really they’re not even waiting for an answer and I think it’s it it also comes down to in that workplace we are functioning a lot on our conscious mind because we are just go go go we’re in an environment where it doesn’t seem anything

but acceptable to be busy and to be in a fast pace and to be rushed. So unfortunately we’re just, we’re not tapping into that subconscious mind as much as we could be and as much as we should be. And therefore that conscious mind, like the subconscious mind is where the emotional intelligence lives. So if we’re not tapping into that area of our mind, we’re just ticking boxes.

DI (09:11)

So what’s the correlation between being emotionally intelligent and being empathetic? Because I’d be interested to understand if the correlation is really close, ⁓ can you be at risk of being a soft touch or a pushover if you’re highly emotionally intelligent and too empathetic?

AMY (09:32)

So empathy is a part of emotional intelligence. I believe empathy is one of the greatest skills you can build. I really do. But empathy is exhausting. And I think to be empathetic in every single situation, it’s not realistic and it is exhausting. And like you said, Di, you can become a bit of a pushover. It’s that fine line between being liked and being respected.

So with that empathy, and I guess this comes to having a really good understanding of the difference between empathy and sympathy, because sympathy has that, even that level of pity or that bit of care where you’re going, wow, this is terrible. I really wish this wasn’t happening to this person and I feel for this person, where empathy is simply recognizing the emotion that the person is feeling and thinking.

When was the last time I felt that emotion? What is the best thing that somebody could possibly say to me rather than what is the worst thing? So I think some people that get caught in that empathy loop are actually in an empathy and sympathy loop where they are bringing a lot of that sympathy in because having fantastic empathy gives you the ability to be able to move forward and help to find solutions. Like how do we fix this? How do we move forward?

You’re not in your own head, you’re there to support them, but you’re actually there to support them to progress, not just to loop and loop and loop in that current state of mind.

DI (11:07)

So then on the flip side, and we’ve seen it happen where people with low EQ are in fact still the best person for the job, for whatever reason, or might be the last man standing in a selection process sometimes, which can be the case. yeah, so we see people with poor EQ get promoted anyway. What’s the impact on a culture when that happens?

AMY (11:24)

Peace!

It depends what role they’re in. I always like to say that if I was going in for brain surgery, I would want my surgeon to have lower levels of emotional intelligence.

Because when I’m in that situation and they are operating on my brain, I don’t want them to be thinking about Amy is the mother of two kids and she’s the wife of Mark. And I want them to be thinking about me as a vessel that they’re just going through that same motion that they do every day and really keeping focused on what they can do. But anytime you’re interacting with human beings when they’re awake, that emotional intelligence is going to create the relationships, right?

If you put aside those few really specific roles that ⁓ I guess look to the ability to be able to shut down your emotions, to be able to do it really well and look at the majority of other roles out there. When we get leaders and specifically CEOs in roles that lack emotional intelligence, we’re getting to the point now where people are just not willing to put up with it. People are walking because the culture is turning toxic.

DI (12:44)

More so now than generations before us, I think.

AMY (12:48)

definitely die and what I’m seeing more than anything now is that people have the genuine interest for emotional intelligence is continuing to rise and it will continue to rise especially with AI coming in but what I’m starting to notice now is that the more organizations that are providing emotional intelligence training for their teams it doesn’t just help them build their emotional intelligence but it also makes it really obvious then to them the people that

aren’t being emotionally intelligent. And I know there’s been a couple of times now where I’ve had, you know, CEOs or C-Sweeps that have said, no, no, we’re not going to do the training. We’ll just let everybody else do it because you know, we think they really. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the people walking out of these training and going, well, hang on a second. Like our CEO and our C-Sweep, they’re the ones that are lacking emotionally intelligence. They’re doing exactly what Amy said not to do.

DI (13:32)

They feel exposed.

AMY (13:46)

And it’s just through that lack of awareness, right? So I think that we are becoming that place that is less tolerant to people lacking emotional intelligence because we know that success is, it is that balance between EQ and IQ. You can’t have one without the other. You need that balance.

DI (14:07)

Yeah, but that example you just gave is interesting because they’ve chosen the C-suite, in this instance that you’ve just cited, has chosen not to turn up. So can you use EQ as a leverage in

managing an environment. So if you’re holding back and not giving and that’s your style, does that mean you have low EQ or can you in certain circumstances or certain settings choose simply not to display it?

AMY (14:49)

It comes down to being real, right? Exactly what you’re saying in that is what is true to your style. So if you have somebody who is quite, you know, quite an introverted person or, you know, talks only when they feel there’s something to say and, you know, they’re really respected for that, then I wouldn’t call that low emotional intelligence. I would say they know who they are and they know their comfort area and they add to the conversation when it’s relevant.

where if you’ve got somebody who is quite an extrovert and they’re sitting there and they’re choosing not to say anything and in their mind is just hundreds and hundreds of thoughts and disagreement and challenges in their mind and they’re choosing not to say anything, then that’s not emotionally intelligent. You’ve got to be real to who you are and you’ve got to make sure that what is coming out of your mouth, the actions that you’re doing is aligned to your mind. So people can see straight through that.

that kind of that false exterior, right? And this is why I’m having so many conversations at the moment around that toxic positivity and that being emotionally intelligent isn’t being positive every second of every day because that’s not what life is. It’s being real, being authentic. And that is how you build trust and build respect. So I think there are some incredible CEOs out there that choose to

sit back and choose to let people take the lead and, you know, choose to be more of that quiet background and they’re very emotionally intelligent people. But there’s also some other ones that choose to sit back and let them do the work that it’s not emotionally intelligent at all because it’s going against everything that they’re thinking, that they’re saying, that they’re supporting. So it’s going to impact the relationship. There’s no template, I guess, to aligning to being an emotionally intelligent.

DI (16:44)

So tell us about toxic positivity. How’s that playing out in the workplace? What are you seeing?

AMY (16:52)

we’re seeing is people that are coming in and just and not being real like they’re coming in and saying you know we need to pretend like every day is amazing like everything’s great you know something happens and you know we use the example in one of the situations where you’ve got a company who’s laying off 200 staff and going but everything’s fine like everything’s okay like let’s just get on let’s just be happy let’s like go no so it’s at that point where we’ve got to understand that

There’s no such thing as a good or bad emotion. There is an appropriateness of an emotion and a severity level. So in some instances, upset, anger, fear, that is the right emotion. you just got to… Appropriate. That’s right. Like you’ve just got to get the intensity or the severity level right. But what we’ve got some organizations coming in that don’t have fantastic cultures,

that are avoiding the difficult conversations that are avoiding the honesty and just sugarcoating it all with everything is amazing let’s just pretend everything’s happy and when these people are coming in and being this this fake positive what it’s turning into is a lack of trust a lack of respect it’s it’s people looking going well you’re not real that’s not realistic and i can’t relate to that so therefore i’m

I’m just not relating to you at all. And yeah, once you’ve lost trust in a work environment or in any relationship, it’s never going to end. Yeah.

DI (18:19)

It’s all over.

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s be honest, can you shift the dial on somebody’s EQ if it’s really at the bottom end of the spectrum?

AMY (18:32)

seen it happen on a few occasions. Again is it easy? No it really isn’t because it really needs a full makeover in your mind. Like we are talking you know habits and beliefs that you’ve had for so long that your mind is naturally going to defer to in situations. It’s about being able to change those.

This is a long-term commitment, right? And usually we see it happen when people hit a really ⁓ big moment in their life that’s had a big impact that really wakes them up to them realizing just how much of a, let’s say, poor or like it’s a person who is seriously lacking that ability to be able to connect to that the human being. So you hear stories about when people lose everything that they have built or

when people have got really sick or when something really devastating has happened in their life that has kind of jolted people out and they’ve realized that that deep embedded wiring in their mind is actually not the best way for them to be. So they put in the work to actually rewire. But when you’re looking at a workplace, I’ll go into sessions and we’ll run a session and at the end I’ll always provide feedback to say, this is my thoughts on the people that were at the session.

These people here have great emotional intelligence these people here really quite lack it But they’re aware of it and if they’re aware of it, then you can definitely help them to work on it But if they’re not aware of it You’re gonna need you’ve got a choice. Yeah, you’ve got to either accept them as they are knowing They are not going to improve and things are not going to change or you need to move them on It’s it’s a tough decision, but it’s it’s one or the other

DI (20:21)

So you and I have been talking for about 15 or 20 minutes. Can you tell from that whether I actually have whatever level of EQ?

AMY (20:35)

Yes, I can gauge. mean, I think that most of us can. I think even in those first couple of minutes when you start to speak to someone, I think you can straight away start to see the mindset that they’re in and their ability to be not in their own head. And I think that’s the biggest giveaway, right? When you can see that somebody is…

DI (20:40)

I’m stealing myself.

AMY (21:01)

listening to what you’re saying, they’re curious, you can tell by this conversation die that it’s not rattled off questions, it’s you listening to the answers and then taking the conversation in the direction that the answers are actually leading us. That’s the kind of display of emotional intelligence but I truly do believe that I don’t think there is such a thing as an emotionally intelligent person. I think that

in every situation we have a choice to make. either choose to respond in an emotionally intelligent way or we choose not to. And while this conversation I would say absolutely, I know that there are times when I enter into a conversation and my emotional brain takes over my logical brain and I could step back at the end and think, wow, I wasn’t very emotionally intelligent there. So I think it is that it’s that ability to be able to apply it in this situation.

But what is our biggest measure is that those times when we don’t get it right, it’s what we choose to do then. So in those moments when we step back and we say, okay, my emotional brain took over then, I wasn’t very logical, I didn’t respond in a great way, and I wasn’t emotionally intelligent, it’s having that ability to be able to go back to that person or go back to that conversation and say, you know what?

that didn’t go well, like I didn’t do well myself in that situation, can we try again? Or can we talk about this a little bit further? And just simply having the ability to apologize when we don’t get it right, that’s our true measure of emotional intelligence.

DI (22:40)

And sometimes going back and apologising may not be the right thing to do. The delivery that you intended that was hard-hitting and impactful and possibly negative was where you wanted to leave it. That’s not necessarily not being emotionally intelligent. That’s knowing when to apply it in what measure and when it’s appropriate.

AMY (22:55)

Absolutely.

DI (23:06)

I know and there will be people who will remember being on the receiving end of me doing just that.

AMY (23:11)

And that’s exactly right that’s coming back to that fake positivity right like that emotional intelligence at times is going to make people feel uncomfortable It is gonna make them squirm a little bit. It’s gonna be something they don’t want to hear But you know that they need to hear it You know that in that moment they’re gonna struggle and they’re gonna struggle a lot But you know an hour two hours a day a week later

they’re going to get what they needed out of that and that’s going to help them for the right reasons. We can only hope, ⁓

DI (23:43)

We hope.

Absolutely. So Amy, let’s come back in a moment and do a little mini masterclass on EQ if we could.

AMY (23:56)

Sounds great.

DI (23:59)

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you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

So time for a bit of a ⁓ EQ master class. So grab a pen because Amy’s going to take us through some ideas here. So let’s say an individual’s been told that they lack EQ and you you might be resisting the urge to push back in whatever way about that. What’s the first step we could take to start building it up?

AMY (24:39)

The first thing we can do is just observe and start to be aware of the impact we’re having on the people around us. So really being able to look at those situations and take the moment to pause and just be observant, be present and see the reactions that you’re getting from other people is going to be really key to understand what it is that’s actually coming out, maybe not in the way that you intended it to.

or also to understand what is actually driving it. So where is it coming from? So it’s always going to be that pause moment and then kind of like, I guess it’s that reflection on yourself, right? Okay, what role did I just play in that situation? How did that person feel at the end of it? How did they respond? What is it that I triggered there? So it’s really, it’s starting to own who you are and the impact that you’re having on the people around you.

DI (25:34)

So I’ve observed that I wasn’t well received or I’ve observed that I’ve caused discomfort or upset or anger in the other person. So I’ve taken the pause. I’ve started to think it through. How do I then apply that in a more emotionally intelligent way? Is that the next step?

AMY (25:59)

Yep, absolutely. So it’s at this point that you get out of your own head, right? So once we understand, okay, what impact are we having? What is driving that? What are the values and beliefs that are driving it? Why am I reacting that way? Then it’s about getting out of your own head and realizing that this situation is not about me. So what is the best way that I can communicate with this person to help them get the best outcome or the outcome that they desire?

So this is at this point where, you know, if I use a difficult conversation, for example, when we head into a difficult conversation and we lack emotional intelligence, we are very much in that fear in our mind of the fear of conflict, the fear of unknown, how are they going to respond to me? And we kind of go into that conversation with that defense mechanism on ourself to make sure that we’re okay in the situation.

When we start to apply emotional intelligence and we go into a difficult conversation, we realize that the conversation is not about us at all. It’s about the person in front of us. So how can we speak? How can we communicate to the person in front of us based on their emotional feelings right now to get the right outcome? And what is the outcome that we desire?

Because when we lack emotional intelligence, a lot of the times when we enter into these interactions or conversations, the outcome that we tend to desire is to win and to be right. So in our head, if you’re in a conversation and you’re looking to win or you’re looking to be right, then you are not applying emotional intelligence. It’s at that point having the ability to be able to go, okay, this is not about

DI (27:27)

Hmm

AMY (27:41)

someone being right and wrong. This is not about a winner and a loser. This is about having a conversation so that we understand how we got here and what the future looks like. How do we move past this? What do we want this to look like in the future? So it’s really that communication is having the ability to be able to start recognizing other people’s emotions and think,

What is the best thing that I could possibly do interacting with this person to get them through this and get to the right outcome?

DI (28:14)

So am I seeking feedback as to how I’m going on my master class journey? Am I asking people what they think?

AMY (28:21)

Thinking feedback is an interesting one, right? Like I’m a huge advocate. You should always be looking for feedback. But I think my tip for everyone is be very careful in the way that you ask for feedback because these days I see a lot of people ask for feedback but don’t give people permission to truly give them feedback. It would be kind of like, you know, at the end of this session me saying to you, oh, that was great. I went well, didn’t I? How did you think I went? Did I do good?

You know what mean? giving permission for feedback. So yes, feedback.

DI (28:51)

That’s not taking feedback.

That’s words in your own mouth.

AMY (28:58)

And that’s me just saying, just want you to confirm my ego right now. That’s what I want you to do. So when you’re asking for feedback and the best thing you can possibly do to be vulnerable and to grow your emotional intelligence is to get that feedback. But you want to do it in a way that you give permission. So you want to really come in with that vulnerability to say,

know, die. I’m doing a lot of podcasts at the moment and I know that I’m not quite nailing them and I’m really working on improving them. Can you give me two tips on how you think I could do better for my next podcast? So that’s the difference between that compared to the first one. That is truly asking for feedback and seeking feedback as opposed to ticking a box and please stroke my ego so I can continue to do what I want to

DI (29:48)

Yeah, we see plenty of that. So have you seen ⁓ examples in the workplace without names? Could you give us some examples of where somebody who’s been out to shift the dial on their EQ for the better actually positively impact their career in some substantive way?

AMY (30:11)

Yeah, yeah, there is one person particularly that I’m thinking of. The first time I met him in a session, his ego was really, really quite evident. And you could see that he constantly needed to say something. It was kind of for that, for that very much that stroke of the ego, right? And I could even see the people around him that lacked respect for him because he really, he wasn’t welcoming any respect in a way.

I could see that he was quite a big personality. He was in a role that ⁓ traditionally kind of demands that level, but he’d taken it way too far. He’d been stuck in this role for quite a while and wasn’t quite understanding why. He wasn’t progressing as well. And it would have been watching him develop over, it would have been a good two to three years, but the first time that I…

The first time that I started to see the difference, it wasn’t in our first session, it was after he attended one of my sessions, I could see towards the end a little bit of a breakthrough, but it was at the second session and the part that hit home for him, even though we were focused on the workplace, he actually came up to me on one of the breaks and said, ⁓ my goodness, Amy, I have just realized how bad I am to my wife.

from an emotional intelligence. Crazy, right? That is what hit him. He straight away, he said it was like this and even the look on his face was just pure awareness and shock. He said, I have just realized what I’m doing to my wife and to my kids at home and the energy that I’m taking and the way that I’m speaking to them. And once he started to get that realization,

You could see the shift in the workplace as well. You could see the shift with everybody he worked with. it was like it still gives me goosebumps because it was incredible to see this person that had such a thick armor and a protection on and ego driven to just slowly unravel this. And he was he was so comfortable to be vulnerable in unwrapping it as well. Like he was quite vocal. I would get phone calls from him saying,

know, Amy, I just had to share this with you. I can’t believe it’s happened. And I’ve watched his career since just climb and climb and climb. And the respect level that his peers have for him now is incredible. He is a completely different man to who I met. But it’s always fascinating when it hits home first outside of work where we’re probably a little bit more raw and honest with the people that we love. And that’s where it became obvious for him.

DI (33:01)

And I know that, you know, the line of you can, we can teach you skill but we can’t employ somebody who’s outside of the fit for an organisation. Are you more inclined to put an emphasis on EQ or IQ in a talent acquisition setting?

AMY (33:24)

If I was in that talent acquisition setting, I would put a little bit more of a sway towards your EQ, but it would only be a slight sway. And I say that because I really do believe it’s the balance between IQ and EQ that we need in this world. I think that your EQ will only take you so far before you need some IQ to back it up. Your IQ also will take you so far before you need some EQ to back it up.

I am a big believer in there is a cultural fit for an organization and a cultural fit for a team. And that doesn’t mean a team of clones. It doesn’t mean bringing the same type of people together. It means getting the right balance and getting the different skill sets and getting the different belief, but it’s getting the right levels of emotional intelligence so that they can actively challenge each other.

effectively challenge each other that they can be honest that they can be vulnerable. So it’s getting that balance right and and for me that is it’s that ability to to apply your emotional intelligence in a situation and if you’ve got somebody coming into a team who does not have that ability it doesn’t matter how similar they are or how different they are it’s it’s not going to work.

Because human beings, number one way that we work is based on connection. And if you cannot create that connection with somebody, it’s not going to work.

DI (34:52)

So if we look out into the public arena today, I think we’ve got some pretty good examples of good and bad. Who would you call out as being exemplars of demonstrating great emotional intelligence?

AMY (35:07)

This one’s always a tough one, right? This one’s always a tough one.

DI (35:11)

I know the negative is easier to do because there’s plenty of that.

AMY (35:14)

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Look, I think there’s some people out there doing some incredible things and really showing great levels of emotional intelligence. If I don’t call out some specifics, I think if we look at industries in general, when we look at our politicians, we can tell the difference between those politicians that do show high levels of emotional intelligence versus those that don’t simply by the way that they speak.

DI (35:41)

Go

on, name me, I dare you.

AMY (35:44)

I’ve done it a long time ago. did it in an article and it created absolute chaos. didn’t play out well. But I think also if we start to look at even those people in public figures like those like celebrities and things like that as well. A celebrity that shows really high emotional intelligence and this is probably going to throw it out there a little bit for people as well.

If I look at someone who like Taylor Swift, right, who’s very much in the media at the moment, people either love her or hate her, but her ability to keep on doing what she’s doing and be able to kind of to take the emotions, to take the impact of other people and continue to go through and continue to have that care factor and never lose that level where, you know, she still introduces herself as high on Taylor just in case she didn’t know kind of thing.

That is showing that grounding, right? Where we find other celebrities out there that are, you know, those people that are like, you know, don’t you know who I am type thing. Like this is me, I should never need to introduce myself because everybody knows who I am. That totally lacks emotional intelligence.

DI (36:59)

Yeah and we see it in sportsmen, the people who you know walk off a tennis court and are happy to sign a signature and those who walk off and it’s like, no that’s beyond me.

AMY (37:09)

Yep, that’s and you see videos I was watching video there the day of you you’re saying about you say bolt and how he takes the time there’s one of the one of the tennis players to I don’t follow a lot of tennis but I know here at the moment

DI (37:24)

David

only recently smashed up a tennis racket but then we don’t necessarily know what the provocation’s been either.

AMY (37:32)

right? No, I’m more talking about it was a video of a really high level of emotional intelligence where you he was sharing the umbrella with the ball boy and is sitting down and having a conversation with the ball boy and you know that kind of thing that shows your high levels of emotional intelligence when you have the ability to do that. So in the sporting industry it’s very interesting because I think and this comes back to that area where

I really do believe that there’s no such thing as an emotionally intelligent person because you see in some sports people and in people in high profiles in one interview they can do really, really well. And then there could be a snippet that they caught off guard or another situation where we don’t understand the context, but it looks like they haven’t handled the situation that.

DI (38:21)

All in the post-production Amy, we can turn anything into something else with a little bit of a tweak.

AMY (38:27)

But that’s emotions right? when you don’t know what’s going on. It’s true. Emotions can be read so many different ways and when we don’t understand like you were saying, what is driving that? What’s building to that area? ⁓ We make some really big assumptions and it good.

DI (38:47)

Yeah, I mean we have a famous example here in Australia, I mean remember the Lindy Chamberlain case. She was judged in the court of public opinion as being guilty because her emotional display didn’t match what everybody wanted it to be.

AMY (39:02)

Exactly right. this is, ⁓ you know, I love this part of AI when people start to understand and realize that situations and people can’t make us feel a certain way. Like it is, you know, we react the way that we react based on the wiring in our mind. And that’s why, you know, you can grab 10 people from around the world, put them in a room and have the same thing happen to all of them. But you can have 10 different reactions. And that’s exactly right with Lindy Chamberlain, right?

because she didn’t have the default reaction that people were expecting straight away they said, well, she’s guilty, clearly she’s guilty. But we all respond different to situations based on our upbringing, experiences, our values and our beliefs and just how we process emotions. So those emotions can be taken and as you said, that’s where video editing works so well in the media and with reality TV shows, right? That’s why they get the rating.

DI (39:58)

Sure does. Yeah sure does. Hey can I just clarify you just said EI so we use the term EI and EQ. Yeah. Are they one in the same? Are they exactly the same?

AMY (40:12)

They’re not exactly the same. the difference between the two of them is emotional EQ is your emotional quotient. So it is your portion. Yeah, it’s the measure of your emotional intelligence where EI is the abbreviation for emotional intelligence. the two

DI (40:27)

Yeah

AMY (40:27)

Yeah,

the two are interchangeable. We understand what both of them mean. We know what both of them refer to. So I tend to use AI unless I’m talking about the actual measure of your emotional intelligence. But EQ, it’s well known. It aligns perfectly to IQ as well. So they’re both acceptable.

DI (40:47)

Got it. So let’s just as we come to a close today, if I can just pull this back a little closer to the power of women. We’re told women are naturally more empathetic and you know that’s biology and stereotype or is that really just a convenient excuse for men not to develop decent levels of EQ?

AMY (41:13)

it’s all of the above. I really do. think that the genetics in us, right, when you’re coming from emotional intelligence, sometimes you’ve got to do that.

DI (41:18)

That’s politically correct, Amy.

AMY (41:26)

I think it is a mixture for some people. think that there is definitely that genetics and that the world upbringing, right? And the acceptance that it’s always been that women can show more emotion and that they are the caregiver and you know, the role that we play and that it’s more acceptable for us to show emotions and less acceptable for men. I do believe that some men out there are absolutely using us as an excuse. ⁓ but I also think that there are some men out there that are

trapped behind that, they’re trapped behind that upbringing and the way they’ve been told or taught to react in situations. I’m seeing now though, I think we’re really breaking through this and even in the last five years, we are starting to see such a shift and it’s a positive shift. It’s a positive shift that people are talking more about emotions.

We’re being more honest, we’re being more upfront, we’re being more vulnerable. And I think that the men that are still sticking behind that masculinity and, you know, they don’t need to show emotions, they are starting to be called out and left behind. So I think we are going to continue.

DI (42:37)

I think that’s right.

In your opinion, what’s the most significant challenge women are facing and how can they use emotional intelligence to shift the dial?

AMY (42:50)

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge that we are facing and we’ve been facing it for a while now is to be confident and comfortable in who we are, to be real. And when I look at the workplace, I think for so long women have, they’ve put success down to bringing in that masculinity, to be one of the boys, to act a certain way, to have a conversation a certain way, to go up against those that.

that gender ⁓ inequality that we’ve had. And I think our biggest challenge now is knowing that success in a workplace, it does not come in a blueprint. You do not have to look a certain way. You do not have to speak a certain way. You do not have to need to act a certain way. It is getting women to be truly comfortable and confident in who they are, to understand their wiring, to understand what makes them different, but also

know that that difference, it’s a superpower as long as you apply it the right way. So have that ability to just still be, still be connected with your emotions. It’s not a bad thing to show emotions in a workplace, but just make sure you’ve got control of them. So feel the emotions, face the emotions, but know how to move on and have that confidence that every emotion that is coming out, you are feeling it for a reason and be okay with that.

but just know how to control it and how to move forward and just be your amazing self. There’s so many incredible women out there that I see when they get promoted or go into a new role that feel like they have to change. And it’s like, no, you were promoted for a reason. That’s right. Don’t change who you are. They promote you because they want that person in there and you don’t need to look the same and act the same as everybody else around the table. Be yourself.

DI (44:35)

for a reason.

Yeah, love it. Amy, how does somebody find you if they want to connect and work on their EQ?

AMY (44:55)

onto my website that’s the best place to find me that’s amyjaggibson.com.au on there you’ll find an insights page that has so many articles videos podcasts radio TV all of that kind of stuff that will help you to start build it you’ll also find my two books on there as well or links to be able to purchase the books and find me on social media too I this may come as a shock to you but I love meeting people so

You know, the more people that reach out, the better. I do love a good chin wag.

DI (45:26)

Beautiful. Well, we’ll put all of those links into the show notes and in particular your website so that they can find you. ⁓ EQ showing emotional intelligence is probably sharing this episode with somebody who you think might just need a little poke in the ribs. That it could be ⁓ a subtle way of being emotionally intelligent and giving somebody a bit of a rev up. But thanks for joining us. Thanks for…

listening through to the end of this particular episode. We’re sort of changing the topics around a bit and curating the mix. So I’d love you to let us know is there something you want to hear more of and only the other week we had our first male guest on which was an emotionally intelligent decision on our behalf to say we’re not going to be just one-sided in talking to the women and in fact it all jokes aside it was

one of the most insightful ⁓ discussions I’ve had with a truly emotionally intelligent male who fully understands the impact of how women and men can work better together. Until next time.