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Exclusive Podcast Interview with Jo Tarnawsky: The Cost of Speaking Out

by admin | Oct 20, 2025 | Bullying, Change Makers, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders

In this exclusive podcast episode on the Power Of Women Podcast, former diplomat and Chief of Staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia Jo Tarnawsky sits down with Di Gillett to share the story that made national headlines ~ and the personal cost of speaking out against workplace toxicity.

From representing Australia across international postings to surviving breast cancer abroad, Jo’s life has been defined by courage, integrity and purpose. But it was her decision to speak out against systemic workplace abuse that would test every one of those qualities.

Through a raw and revealing conversation, Jo explores what happens when the system fails to protect its own, and why finding your people matters more than finding the crowd.

You’ll hear:

➜ How Jo’s career in diplomacy prepared her for life’s toughest moments

➜ The story behind her cancer diagnosis and recovery abroad

➜ What really happens when the system lets you down

➜ How to rebuild after workplace trauma

➜ Why speaking out comes with a cost — but silence costs more

➜ What she is doing now.

This is a conversation about courage, purpose and the power of standing up ~ not just for yourself, but for the women who will come after you.

Jo said:

Standing up and speaking out comes with a cost – but so does remaining silent.

Finding your people can be a game-changer. You don’t need a large crowd, just the right ones.

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here👇

JO TARNAWSKY (00:00)

I believe that courage and integrity has never been more important. I think that standing up and speaking out comes with a cost, but so does remaining silent. And I think finding your people can make a world of difference.

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

Of course, I can’t come back, but all my things are still in my office. And how does the Deputy Prime Minister’s Chief of Staff just disappear with no notice midway through a Tuesday? It just didn’t make any sense.

DI GILLETT – Host (00:48)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women Podcast.

today’s story is a powerful one and one that in fact did make the headlines in 2025. It’s a conversation about the impact of toxic workplaces,

what happens when the system lets you down, the cost of speaking out, but most importantly,

how not to let those experiences define you or hold you back.

Jo Tarnawsky welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

JO TARNAWSKY (01:21)

Thank you so much, Di. It’s absolutely wonderful to be here. I’m happy to say I’ve caught a number of your podcasts this year. I think it’s an incredible series. So thank you for doing it.

DI GILLETT – Host (01:32)

firstly, I want to say thank you for choosing the Power of Women podcast to be the very first time to talk about your story in a bit more detail publicly, because I know it takes courage to do that, and I am really honored that you’ve trusted us with this today. Before we step into the more challenging part of your recent experience, I would love to hear about your career journey, you’ve held

senior roles at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. And you have represented Australia across international postings. Can you take us through some of the highlights and some of your proudest moments?

JO TARNAWSKY (02:13)

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ I’ve been really lucky to have almost two decades of experience working in diplomacy and worked in some incredible places, met some wonderful people, doing some really interesting things. ⁓ I think one of the things about being a diplomat is that ⁓ on any given day you could be wearing multiple hats. You can be an advisor, an event planner. You could be helping someone with a lost passport or a consular issue.

You can be writing some kind of geopolitical analysis, meeting with international dignitaries, a whole range of things. ⁓ And, you know, I think it also comes with some challenges. think there’s a public sort of perception of diplomats at cocktail parties and and traveling around. But I’ve got to say that, you know, this

There’s a whole lot of other work that goes often unseen behind the scenes. I know, for example, that ⁓ across my experience, ⁓ in addition to, of course, attending cocktail parties, I’ve been deployed to war zones. ⁓ I’ve been held up at gunpoint more than once. I was nearly kidnapped at one point. And a lot of the work that’s done is invisible. ⁓ But of course, it also gives you extraordinary opportunities.

DI GILLETT – Host (03:36)

Are you out to shed any light on some of those more challenging moments? Gunpoint and kidnap? is that confidential?

JO TARNAWSKY (03:44)

No, In one instance, I was in Zimbabwe during some of the height of the Mugabe era. And I just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time. And I was driving to work. I was there on a short term mission during it was around 2007, 2008, when there was a runoff election. Mugabe had not won the first time around. And I was on my way to the embassy and Mugabe’s

⁓ entourage happened to go by and I was front of line and you see it coming, there’s warning sort of motorcycles I pulled over to the side of the road but I just happened to be near where his residence was and so he was going to pass in front of me and so some lovely looking chaps with some very large weapons came right up to where I was sitting in the driver’s seat and held a gun basically to my head ⁓ just to make sure I

wasn’t going to take one for humanity basically, and stayed where I was. So that was one of them. And then on another ⁓ incident, ⁓ I was acting High Commissioner in Trinidad and Tobago for a couple of months. A lot of people sort of, again, think of the Caribbean as this, as the beaches and the, you know, they have very romantic notions, but actually Trinidad and Tobago, you can see the coast of Venezuela from there. There’s a run of drugs and

all sorts of things that go through that channel. There’s actually like a murder count when I was there on the front pages of the paper. And they just had a huge security crackdown for the Summit of Americas where President Obama and a whole range of other leaders had come in. so crime had sort of stopped or been contained for about two months. And then, of course, once all of that left, it spiked.

And again, wrong place, wrong time. And I ended up being somewhere that was subject to an armed robbery for where there was about eight gunmen that held me up. Yeah, that was definitely one of the more traumatizing experiences that I had. And yeah, but I’ve got to say that, you know, I’ve worked a defect with a whole range of people that have had their own experiences and

have gone out and done the hard yards and so many people have a story either being deployed to war zones or working through tsunamis or being at embassies that have been attacked. And so it really is sometimes frontline service in the national interest.

DI GILLETT – Host (06:23)

Is there professional counselling that is offered to diplomats who’ve experienced such things?

JO TARNAWSKY (06:30)

There is now. When I first started back in 2002, I remember being one of the first people called in the middle of the night when the first Bali bombings hit. We were sort of called out of bed. And to be honest, I was a graduate. I thought it was a training, a training sort of event. was nothing on the news. This is before social.

it was around 2002, 2003, yeah, 2002 maybe. And so we were called in the middle of the night, early one Sunday morning, even by the time we got to headquarters, the religious programming was still on the news. So it all kind of felt a bit surreal. But then when they flicked the phones on, were people already, there were already online families waiting to get through. And it was real.

And it even at that early stage took a little while for counselors to sort of be debriefing after every shift, because you’d have quite, you know, you’d have people that may have lost loved ones or just people who had canceled their holidays. And there was no sort of, couldn’t work out who would be the angst, but you would sometimes be the first person that was speaking to. And so a lot of that confusion or anger was directed at you. And.

So they’ve got better, whereas I think there’s now there’s multiple full-time counselors that go out to visit embassies, posts, as we call them, on a regular basis ⁓ to check in. They have people on that. And so it’s got, the system has got a lot better ⁓ in ensuring that sort of support is available to staff.

DI GILLETT – Host (08:05)

So how many years all up did you spend overseas, Jo?

JO TARNAWSKY (08:09)

So on and off my first posting, four year, three year posting was in Papua New Guinea. Then I did a series of jobs over several years where it might be deployed somewhere for just a couple of months. So that included places like Iraq, like Zimbabwe, Kenya. I worked on a kidnapping case there, Ethiopia to help VIP visits come in, Trinidad and Tobago, Fiji. There was a whole range of things. And then my very last posting was actually to Italy.

where I was acting ambassador for the first six months and then I was deputy ambassador for the next three years. I was also worked out at the World Food Program, the United Nations World Food Program and a couple of the other international organizations. And we were also accredited to Libya, Albania, San Marino, which, you know, also it’s a small embassy And

everybody sort of thinks, wow, Italy, how easy it had the highest number of lost and stolen passports there at the time. This is pre-COVID, so it definitely kept us on our toes. But the other thing that happened to me while I was there was I got cancer. so, yes, so it wasn’t all quite ⁓ Prosecco at the Coliseum. ⁓

DI GILLETT – Host (09:22)

What

do you do when that happens in a foreign country? Do you jump a plane and head home or do you start to deal with it in country?

JO TARNAWSKY (09:28)

think it depends on the country. Obviously most of the other places, if I had been there when I had been diagnosed, you would want to come home. But I was a long way from home in a country which did have medical procedures. And to be honest with you, I had never needed anything more than a vaccination. ⁓ And something in my gut just told me they can do the surgery here next Wednesday. And even though there was a few questions around how much would it cost and.

DI GILLETT – Host (09:36)

put it home.

JO TARNAWSKY (09:58)

Could I come home and all those sorts of things. It was really lucky that I trusted my gut because when they got the tumor out, it was breast cancer and they saw how fast it was running and the type I had tripped. Time is everything. They say that if I had got four to six weeks later, I wouldn’t be here now.

DI GILLETT – Host (10:10)

Time was everything.

There’s a lot to be said for intuition.

JO TARNAWSKY (10:19)

Yes, there is. of course I just, you never think it’s going to happen to you until it does. And, you know, then you’ve just got to go with it really. And so I had the full dense dose chemo, lost my hair. ⁓ And I think one of the hardest parts of leaving Italy was not the gelato shops on every corner ⁓ and the historic buildings. It was actually leaving my oncologist. Cause you also developed quite a rapport.

obviously with somebody you’ve come to know through one of those experiences. Yeah.

DI GILLETT – Host (10:52)

Did you work through the procedure in the chemo or did you take time out completely to recover?

JO TARNAWSKY (10:59)

I worked through most of it, not the early stages. DFAT had originally wanted me to come home. And so I was at pains not to be a problem. And I, you know, so what I did was I took off for surgery. I also didn’t know what was coming in hindsight. So by the time I had surgery, no one would talk to me about chemo.

And in fact, defat would only sort of sign off on the surgery if there wasn’t mention of it. And if, you know, it didn’t look like I was going to need sort of long-term help. And so it wasn’t until after they got the tumor results that they realized actually you you need chemo and you need it fast. So it’s, then with that, they can tell you exactly when you’re going to start losing your hair. And so I decided that I would go through that and I, and so it’s around day 14 or so that it starts falling out. And, you know, my daughter was only three.

She was going through a Rapunzel phase, you know, focusing on getting her through that. And so I waited for my hair to fall out. But actually because of cutbacks in the overseas service, I had actually absorbed another whole full-time role about six months earlier. I was doing two jobs anyway. So what they did was they ended up bringing somebody in on a short-term mission so that I just did one job and they did the other. But then the other thing too was,

I was very careful. Exercise was the thing that was absolutely a game changer for me. And so I just worked strict hours. I stuck to my schedule for that. And I think too what was also helpful was having a routine at home. So I pulled back the hours, I pulled back the scope, I wasn’t silly about it, but having some routine brought some normality. I think it also helped me return to the workforce more fully when my treatment ended because

It wasn’t I didn’t have this gigantic mountain to cross. I’d kind of kept a little bit in the loop as to what was happening. I mean, that said, anyone who’s been through treatment knows the fatigue, the physical fatigue knocks you off your feet. Once your hair grows, starts growing back after treatment’s finished, everybody thinks it’s over. And to be honest with you, that was one of the hardest experiences was when treatment ended because there was nothing left to fight and you just had to, you know, you were waiting for it to come back.

But I think mentally too, like the cognitive impacts aren’t something that people fully appreciate. So I know the second cocktail that I had really did affect like my spelling. I’d always been a great speller. Suddenly I was missing bits and emails. I wouldn’t say it’s like dementia or Alzheimer’s, but there was a moment, you know, where I would look at my daughter. Where I looked at my daughter and knew she was my daughter. I could not remember her name. And so.

I had to so I don’t speak Italian very well at all. And part of that was because at the end of that, what I needed to get back up was actually my mother tongue English. I needed to make sure that my spelling and everything that I so that I could build back my life, because I was the primary breadwinner, could get back on track and just sort of picking your battles and sort of working your way back through the fatigue, through the cognitive impact and a lot.

you know, and getting back to a place where eventually, as we know, became chief of staff to the deputy prime minister. And that was a real test. How far have I come? Because you really everything in the kit and that, and, know, and I, did, I loved it. I loved that job. and I had the energy and all of that. And it showed how far I had come. Like it was about five years later.

DI GILLETT – Host (14:23)

Absolutely.

say how many how many years years later so

JO TARNAWSKY (14:43)

So I crossed the magic five year mark about a month into the job. And I still say that a little cautiously because I think anybody who’s gone through it, you don’t have that casual sort of confidence about what the future holds. But certainly the doctors stop worrying about you a little bit from that point and it sort of back into more normal monitoring.

DI GILLETT – Host (15:08)

So you have held some incredibly important strategic roles that are kind of the pinnacle of public service and in some pretty tough destinations around the world. You have faced into a personal health battle being breast cancer in a foreign country. You’ve got through that, you’ve worked your way through that, dropping one job and

just working through just the one position. But that compared to perhaps more recent experience just highlights what strength of character you must have to do what you’ve done in your career, So my question’s gonna be, If you had carte blanche to speak out and the Power Of Women Podcast is your stage,

Given what the last 18 months or so have been, where should we start?

JO TARNAWSKY (16:10)

Yeah, that’s a good question. Firstly, I think you’re right. I do think that some of these other experiences helped prepare me. Bad things can happen to us at any time. And I think the only choice we ever have is sort of how we respond. But if I have

carte blanche, I think the most useful thing I can do for you and your audience. It’s not necessarily going through the detail blow by blow sort of thing, but it’s also about what we take from these experiences. So. For me, I think I think we there are moments in your life where you wake up in the morning and you have absolutely no idea that your life is about to change and that. No trigger warning.

DI GILLETT – Host (16:52)

No trigger warning.

JO TARNAWSKY (16:55)

And that something or someone is about to come across your path and by day’s end, your life is different from that moment on. And so for me, that, that day was Tuesday, the 30th of April, 2024. I had just, yeah. And there will be parts that are imprinted. and that’s okay. for me, I, it came through a phone call.

And it was a phone call with my boss, who is the deputy prime minister. We had just come back from an extraordinary trip to Ukraine. The entire trip had fallen apart while we were en route. And it was lucky in a way that I had this diplomatic background and I had done VIP visits before and worked in war zones. ⁓ I, you know, had a range of global contacts at high levels that I’d sort of established through my work, because I needed to call on all of them to be able to pull off

weaving it all back together. It is the single hardest job I’ve ever done. And so at the end of like, I was really grateful that I, you know, we were able to pull it together. But what had happened as part of that is on the way home, I had decided to raise with him privately that I had been experiencing some issues in the workplace that was starting to have an impact on me. And I, you know, tried to manage this for a while, but I had reached a point where I felt that I needed to draw them to his attention. He had

responded to me ⁓ in all of this was in text messages that, ⁓ you know, he really valued me. He was very grateful for my work and we should have a chat. And so that chat happened that day. There was no time set for it. In fact, we played a bit of phone tag that morning, ⁓ which was really normal in my job. ⁓ And this is a man I had known for more than 10 years who had actually asked me specifically to come to Parliament House to do that job for him.

And so I had no reason to sort of be too concerned. I had just wanted to raise it with him so that he knew and not to inadvertently feed the dynamics. And the conversation took a look, a really unexpected and devastating turn. And by the end of that phone call, which happened at around 11 o’clock in the morning, went for about 45 minutes.

DI GILLETT – Host (19:11)

Was the phone call one-on-one?

JO TARNAWSKY (19:13)

It was one-on-one, I just happened, thank goodness I was sort of, mean, thank goodness in some ways I was on my own. but at the same time, I didn’t have a support person or anything. Like I said, it just didn’t seem anything other than routine. And, by the end of that phone call, I had basically been stood down from traveling, ⁓ the next day and to see him, he had wanted me to take leave, saying that.

You know, I needed a break and not just a few days, take a few weeks off the books. And I, you know, he had sort of said. I had asked him because it was so the conversation has taken such a weird turn. said, you know, are you asking me to start looking for another job? And he it sounded at the time like he had sort of reluctantly agreed to that. But I found out later he’d had ⁓ he’d actually had a conversation.

prior to the phone call. So he knew what he was doing when he went into it. ⁓ And his last parting, chilling words to me were, I know how to manage this, trust me. Because I had asked, yeah. And again, this is a man I’d known for a long time. And so I was shocked. I was in trauma, probably. mean, mostly it was just shock at that point. But I’m also somebody who follows rules and doesn’t like to make a mess.

had no reason to trust that I wouldn’t take this time off.

DI GILLETT – Host (20:40)

your intuition telling you Jo

JO TARNAWSKY (20:42)

I was just blindsided. So I think that’s probably something that maybe your audience can imagine that you get these life quakes. and I hadn’t fully processed it. I was still trying to make sense of it because it didn’t make sense to me. But then I guess to sort of cut a really long story short, it’s sort of the what happens next. It’s when I tried to return to the workplace, the prime minister’s chief of staff just told me, well, basically that that was a ridiculous, you know,

And then at the same time, the Parliamentary Workplace Service was trying, had told me that they were going to cut off my counselling. And this was at a point where I was isolated alone. I was having nightmares.

I was in one of the deepest, darkest holes of my life, not knowing what was going on. And so at that point I got a lawyer who, and even then nobody knew what was going on. was all very quiet.

DI GILLETT – Host (21:44)

There was no public announcement to the collegiate workforce that you were stepping back.

JO TARNAWSKY (21:51)

Nope. then they got that step at least got my counseling reinstated. And then I was allowed back on the work site at Parliament House. But at the 11th hour, new conditions were put on me that were basically that I couldn’t go into my own office without 24 hours of written notice and a special project had been set up for me. So I would then go into work and, know, as and I was trying to find.

other jobs so I could exit, but I would often come second and I was putting on a brave face while I was coping with the biggest trauma of my life. And I had no contact ⁓ with my boss or the office. It was just bizarre and it was deeply traumatic and I was trying to cover for myself and for everyone. And so I would literally sit in the car park and cry some mornings. I started having panic attacks because I would have to use everything I had to go and put on a brave face.

DI GILLETT – Host (22:46)

and we’ll.

JO TARNAWSKY (22:46)

And

yeah, and so it was five long months before I went public. had kind of got back into a corner where the special project was ending. I knew I wasn’t able to go back into my own office.

DI GILLETT – Host (22:56)

And with special project code for sidelined really.

JO TARNAWSKY (23:00)

it wasn’t called a special project. was, mean, there’s been a whole lot of workplace reforms that were ⁓ put out after the Jenkins review and the set the standard. And there has been some improvements around training and things. And I’ve got a bit of a background and a passion for this actually. I was a huge advocate for some of the workplace culture reforms and participated wherever I could. So I went around and as the most senior.

female chief of staff on the Hill during the winter break, when I met with all the chiefs about what they wish they had have known, you know, what training would be useful for them, all of that with the view of putting together a guide ⁓ to help future chiefs of staff. So it was kind of a bizarre situation because some of them would obviously share things with me and they had no idea what was going on. I was putting on the most professional face I possibly could. ⁓

And so yeah, it was five months before I went public when I’d sort of been backed into a corner because ⁓ this temporary project was ending. ⁓ didn’t seem to be any pathway back to my role. I still didn’t know what I’d done or why this had happened. was just…

DI GILLETT – Host (24:14)

Nobody

was informing you?

JO TARNAWSKY (24:16)

You were blinded. Yeah, just blinded. And ⁓ I’d come second and I just, I didn’t. And the options were, which many people do because of the power that you’re facing on the other side is to walk away quietly. the alternative choice, of course, is to say something. And in my mind, ⁓ they were both terrible choices, terrible options, I should say. But.

⁓ Part of it was informed by the fact that I think a large part of the trauma was the covering and the idea of walking away without saying something would mean I would have to keep doing that. My daughter had actually seen the impact at home and she was 11 at the time and she said, know, mum, maybe if you tell someone, maybe someone will help you. And that

that really stopped me in my tracks because I mean, I was in such a dark place and I thought, you know what, I owe it to her more than anything to do everything I can before this takes me. And the other thing is we teach kids around, you know, ⁓ if you’ve got a secret, yeah, if you’ve got a secret, there’s no secret too big that you shouldn’t share it, that we stand up to bad behavior and.

she’s about to go through high school and, and, you know, I couldn’t very well give her that advice if I wasn’t living it myself. And so, yeah, I thought about it for quite a while. wasn’t a rash decision. I knew it came with consequences. Um, and I’ve got to say, seeing myself on camera is like, I, not a thing. I, I’ve said to a number of people, think other than my fear of snakes.

seeing myself on TV. ⁓ And to this day, I have never watched that first press conference. I remember shaking. And I remember saying things. mean, I wrote, obviously I wrote what I said aloud, but I remember foreshadowing a few things which proved to become true, which is that I knew I would be iced out from that point. That’s how the system works and that people would rally around to protect him in their own power. And that’s exactly what happened. And so

They doubled down. I was lost out even more and isolated. ⁓ No one from the government ever checked on me. They passed the same lawyers that have been geared up for the Parliamentary Work Post Support Service that have been used by the Deputy Prime Minister to come cover. ⁓ They couldn’t give me guarantees around my confidentiality and privacy with some very personal information like psychologist records and medical records. They just said they’d give me a pseudonym.

And I just realized this isn’t going to work. And I wrote an open letter to the prime minister to this day. He’s never even acknowledged receipt. And so I made the very difficult decision to then embark on public and traumatic litigation. Let me tell you, it’s not for the faint of Yeah.

DI GILLETT – Host (27:29)

So Jo, what is the public interest story here? What should we know?

JO TARNAWSKY (27:35)

Well, I think a few things. think I have learned so much over this last year. I’ve learned about the prevalence, sadly, of toxic workplaces. I think in my case, Parliament, it was well documented. The set the standard report, the Jenkins review, as it’s called, ⁓ that had come on the back of some highly publicised cases at Parliament. 1700 people had come through, had spoken up as part of that review.

The now Prime Minister Anthony Albanese had stood in parliament in February 22 and made promises to keep women safe. Brittany Higgins and others were in the gallery when he made this speech. And said, you know, and the value of staffers ⁓ and to, you know, everybody needed to walk the talk. ⁓ And I think sadly what I’ve helped show is that while there has been some changes,

much of it is window dressing and much of the power imbalance still remains ⁓ and people are still very vulnerable. So there’s that. I think, too, the number of people that have reached out to me, particularly, I mean, I went I went very quiet on social media, shut down most accounts, but I kept LinkedIn open. And the amount of people that have reached out to me with stories of their own workplace ⁓ abuse, it is everywhere. It is a it’s almost like a quiet epidemic. And

I don’t really ever need to hear the details of people’s stories. I need, I basically get a sentence or two in and this is someone who speaks the same language and they know it. ⁓ You can recognise it in other people. And my psychologist, have a wonderful psychologist and she had sort of been a little bit worried about me when I went public sort of saying, Jo, you’ve got to put your own oxygen mask on before you help others.

⁓ I know you, she said, be careful, but I’ve got to say with a lot of these people, they did not reach out for one-on-one like me trying to fix their problem. Well, they were actually sort of backing it in and saying, we’re watching what you’re, what you’re doing is really important. Keep going. And, ⁓ the vast majority of those were women, not all, the vast majority. Yep.

DI GILLETT – Host (29:38)

I just wanted to share it.

JO TARNAWSKY (29:56)

And they were just letting me know that they supported me. And that wasn’t just after press conferences either. ⁓ It would be, it trickled right through, all the way through to today. I still get every week a couple of people reaching out because I’ve seen you.

DI GILLETT – Host (30:12)

Women, senior executives, or is it mixed?

JO TARNAWSKY (30:16)

I would say it’s really mixed in all different industries. There are some senior people and I think sometimes they reach out to me because it’s really difficult to know who to trust. And when I’ve been as public as I have, and I’ve been in the senior roles, I am potentially someone that understands. And particularly if they’ve been subject to what I would call upward bullying, which is a known type, there’s sort of a shame and not a lot of understanding around that. so again,

I think that can be, or if they’re in a high profile position, like I’ve had people that have got like post-nominals after their name, like orders of Australia and things get in contact with me. And It’s the shock and the trauma, but what I’ve learned, and here is the real public interest, I think, because I think it’s not just for individuals to know, but for workplaces, that often the targets of workplace abuse are not the people that we think necessarily in the schoolyard where we think of

⁓ really visible sorts of things that you can pinpoint or where the targets may be the weakest link, but more than more often than not, they’re high performing ethical people. And I think that’s why the trauma hits so bad because. You know, we spend a third of our lives at work. So they’re not just jobs. They are also part of who we are. And so when workplaces turn toxic.

It impacts everything. It impacts our health and confidence. It impacts our families and it impacts the future we see for ourselves. It is, like I said, a lifequake.

DI GILLETT – Host (31:52)

Jo, coming up, we’re going to talk more about your courageous story. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode. Jo, you were chief of staff to the Deputy Prime Minister of Australia and the Minister of Defence before your world

literally blew up in front of your eyes? What caused you most grief?

JO TARNAWSKY (32:25)

That’s

another good question, did I? I think there’s a few things you grieve. So for me, this is the job I’d wanted since I was 12 years old. I’d gone to Parliament House when I was 12 and I’d met then Prime Minister Bob Hawke. I never wanted to be a politician, but I just wanted to be the key person next to the decision maker. And I didn’t know that’s what it was, but all the work I’d done, you

going to university at the ANU, which was near Parliament House, working at Parliament House as a university student. This was the job, like at the senior level, this is everything I’d worked for. So this was the dream. I loved my job. So there was a grief, I guess, in having it end so abruptly and everything. And so there’s a grief that I think you have to let go of the job. particularly when it’s

ended in such traumatic circumstances. But I think too, there’s a broader piece there around you, there’s a grief that comes because you feel so abandoned by the people and the workplace or the institution that you’ve given so much to. And I think that’s common for a lot of people who have gone through a toxic workplace experience.

DI GILLETT – Host (33:46)

Do you feel that your colleagues had abandoned you through their own choices or do you feel they had been told to keep their distance?

JO TARNAWSKY (33:56)

Both. think sometimes you don’t need to be told because you know the way it works. ⁓ But I do understand people were also told. So I think both. But I think this comes back to what something that I said and part of those fast things at the beginning, There is a real cost to speaking up ⁓ on these things, but there is also a cost to being silent So.

if you take it even broader, when I sort of look at what’s happening in the world right now, There is a cost to being silent because you vacate the space for others. There is a cost to not, you know, to just staying out of the way that it’s somebody else’s problem ⁓ because that can have a human impact as well. So for me, as I’ve explained, there was also a cost of covering and not speaking the truth.

⁓ I felt that that added to my trauma. and I think I was right. ⁓ I think when I looked at my options about walking away or standing up and saying something, I knew by getting up and saying something and shaking like a leaf and facing those cameras, it would get harder, but I could at least see an option where it might get better. And I did feel immediately like a weight had lifted because I told the truth. And I have met people who have left.

places that have been bad for them and who didn’t say anything and sometimes they’re carrying the trauma years down the track. It’s still eating them. Whereas I’ve got to say that my recovery has, I think, been helped by the fact that I felt that I had done everything I could to raise the flag ⁓ and I’ve been true to my values.

DI GILLETT – Host (35:42)

Did your daughter have something to say when you stepped forward and spoke out?

JO TARNAWSKY (35:47)

Yeah,

I think she felt very proud that she had ⁓ helped me fix it in her view.

DI GILLETT – Host (35:56)

How wonderful.

JO TARNAWSKY (35:59)

She’s such a great kid, you know, I’m so lucky. And when I look at the future, we need strong, courageous women like her. I think there’s a, get this wrong, but there’s this wonderful little internet thing I’ve seen on the internet where it’s strong women. May we be them, may we raise them. And so hopefully I’m doing that with her, but she definitely, she’s got very high EQ, she’s very kind.

She’s super smart with real world stuff for a kid of her age. I mean, she’s had that all her life, to be honest, when we go back to when I had cancer, and even as a three year old, we had tried to explain it to her in age appropriate ways. she’d obviously, kids pick up on things though. she, I woke up one morning and she was right in my face. It was, I think just before my surgery.

And she’d obviously been thinking about it and she’d come up to me and she’s right there and she, and she just slant in very gently. And she said, don’t worry, mommy, if you lose your hair, I’ll find it for you. Which is just, I’ll never forget that. And when my hair did start falling out and you shave it to, mean, I didn’t quite understand this till it happened to me, but it’s, it’s the weight and it sort of irritates the scalp. if you can.

Let go of that shaving helps. And she went round with a little dust band and sort of picked it all up. So she likes, I think, feeling that she helped fix it. And it was the same with this. She was very proud of me for getting up there and saying something, but she also felt that she had helped. And so I think now as she sort of heads into high school, I hope that I have provided that role modeling for her and.

DI GILLETT – Host (37:27)

data.

JO TARNAWSKY (37:48)

We do have a very open relationship. Who knows what the robust teenage years hold for us, but hopefully she knows that there’s no secret too big that she can’t share with me.

DI GILLETT – Host (37:59)

her empathy score will remain as high. that’s… Jo, you said to me you don’t need a large crowd, you just need the right people. What do you mean by that?

JO TARNAWSKY (38:02)

I hope so. I hope so.

So I think finding the right people can be a game changer. So for me, it is hard. It is part of the grief that you have to let go of some people. ⁓ But again, from when I had cancer, I remember someone telling me, you’re going to be really surprised by the people who step up and the people who step back. Focus on the people who step up.

And so I had learned when you talk about what lessons I’d learned from some of these other hard experiences, that was one of them. And ⁓ you learn to focus on the people that step up, but also the people who step back. It actually says more about them and it’s more about them than it is about you. So we’ve cancer, it might be that they have something traumatic. They don’t know what to say. So they’re just back away because it’s easier not to have to say anything at all. ⁓ With a situation like this, people

may feel unsafe to have anything to do with you because they might feel that they’re going to lose their jobs by osmosis, just by breathing the same air as you or contacting you to see if you’re okay. having the right people

DI GILLETT – Host (39:16)

in a line

definition

of a toxic workplace joke.

JO TARNAWSKY (39:30)

Right. But I mean, even beyond that, there’s friends who I think will you I see it as a gift, actually, because I know exactly who my people are now. There’s some what I’d call fairweather friends whose silence speaks for them. That’s fine. It is part of that grief. ⁓ But you learn to let them go and and learn to look at who steps up. And sometimes those people can really surprise you. They could be on the periphery of your life and

really play a central role through some of these more difficult moments. You know, when I think about the key people, I only because I needed to feel safe and because this was high profile in terms of the friends I had, this is these wonderful friends of mine who they knew something was wrong. This is before I went public. They could see it. They knew I wasn’t ready to talk about it, but one day I just.

I turned up on their doorstep, I walked into their kitchen, I burst into tears. I told them everything and they just hugged me and they have been with me ever since. ⁓ And I think some of the value that they bring is that when you lose yourself in these situations, they know you before and they can see you, who you are beyond this thing that has happened to you. And so I think it’s one of those things that sometimes when you’ve lost the confidence in yourself,

borrow somebody else’s until you can find it again. So they’re wonderful people. even, you know, I found this amazing Pilates teacher again, she didn’t know. She didn’t know the details of what I was going through, but she could see it in my body. And so she ⁓ she was also central. My lawyer, I had somebody who wasn’t just a game changer in terms of the law. But he was a

game changer in terms of life. And so now when I look at what I want to do with my life and have it purpose driven, he was a large part of that great psychologist. Yep. And then friends, old school friends that came out of the woodwork who knew me way back then. ⁓ And, you know, there’s parts of you just don’t change. You know, there’s no pretenses with people that have known you since childhood.

DI GILLETT – Host (41:29)

the give.

JO TARNAWSKY (41:43)

they reconnected and reached out. ⁓ I’d gone quiet on social media, I, you know, there was sort of friends and family who were sort of ⁓ doing their bit there. ⁓ So then there were people like my DFAT friends and they, again, they believed me because they knew me and they knew that you wouldn’t stand, I wasn’t somebody that would be standing up unless this is super serious and it had reached sort of this point. And they believed me and they,

came and made sure I wasn’t isolated because I think that’s one of the big things that can affect people in toxic workplaces is just how isolating it is. So not only are you gaslit and you don’t know what’s going on and you’re confused why this is happening and you don’t know who to trust, but often there are dynamics in play which cut you off. And so just someone walking, walking with me with the dogs, being with me.

There’s another person who I’ll forever remember. So a lot of senior, senior bureaucrats who I know quite well, I’ve never heard from again because it’s all so risky, but I’ve, I’ve had a long-term mentor who has been there throughout. And there was somebody that I didn’t know, senior bureaucrat who reached out to me because it just didn’t make sense to them. And they caught up with me a number of times and it wasn’t to discuss the ins and outs of the case. It was simply.

So I wasn’t alone. And the power of that, extraordinary, extraordinary and unexpected. And so I learned, you know, if anybody asked me for a coffee, particularly after I went public, there were people and people said LinkedIn. I’ve made real life friends off LinkedIn and met up with people for coffees because I learned to embrace these. These were my people. It’s a real gift. I know exactly who they are. And some of these people existed before and some of them didn’t.

DI GILLETT – Host (43:15)

and unexpected.

JO TARNAWSKY (43:37)

But these are people who share my values, who admire courage, ⁓ who may have, may or may not have lived experience, but these are my people. And so I actually, while it would be easy to see this as purely an exercise in grief, for me, it’s a gift. You don’t get many opportunities in life to find out really who’s cheering for you and who your people are. And I know exactly who they are now.

DI GILLETT – Host (44:03)

people are. So what is next for Jo Tonasky?

JO TARNAWSKY (44:08)

Well, it was never on my bucket list, but I have just launched my own business. I could have returned to diplomacy, but I think that thing that I talked about in terms of silence, I realized the value of my voice. I didn’t want to go back in the jar. And when you work in the public service, there’s a whole lot of rules around what you can or can’t do. And I couldn’t sort of just go on like this had never happened.

So I made a conscious decision to walk away from government and I wasn’t sure what to do next. took six months off. And if you’d asked me immediately afterwards, I would have told you that I just wanted to close this chapter of my life and move on. It was good to take the break. I got some good advice from friends that said, Jo, take a break. And I think they also know me that once I start work again, I’ll just dive straight into it. So. ⁓

DI GILLETT – Host (45:00)

Have

a reputation for handing two jobs at once,

JO TARNAWSKY (45:04)

Well, ⁓ but again, the people just kept reaching out to me and I was doing something without noticing it on LinkedIn. I was liking and commenting on posts. It wasn’t necessarily posting about workplace issues, but ⁓ I was liking and commentating on a whole bunch of psychologists and academics that were working in this space. people would reach out to me and they would say, thank you. ⁓

that they were following me. And obviously they were in their own situations where they couldn’t openly like or comment on these posts themselves. But by watching what I was doing, it was empowering them to understand what was going on. And so they could make good decisions for themselves. And so I think I hit a period around July or August where I thought, you know what, taking a leaf out of this, there is something. And if I look at my lawyer and the conversations we’ve had around living a purpose led lives that

positively impact people, realized that I actually had an opportunity that if I leaned into this, well, it wasn’t something I necessarily wanted to be known for. This actually had the potential to help more people. And I had a real opportunity to do that. So while part of my business is around strategic advice and I have clients that I help that is more to do with my traditional background in international relations and government, there is a public part of it, which is around

helping people understand what has happened to them. call it workplace recovery because it’s not just about individuals, it’s around people. So for individuals, I’ve actually recorded a video series. So trust can be a really big thing and people can’t articulate it. They don’t know where to go, where to start. But if you can, I’ve sort of seen myself not as the medical advice, not as the legal advice, but helping that building block of understanding this is what’s happening so that then people can make a better decision about what they do from there.

and leading them to a whole bunch of resources that I have found. Books, podcasts, some of yours actually die and make the list. Yeah, about people just trying to get them into a better place because this is sadly everywhere and it can destroy lives. But then the second part of that is actually helping organisations because I sort of feel like when helping individuals, it’s a little bit like putting a bandaid on a cut leg. What you want to do is

DI GILLETT – Host (47:05)

Fantastic.

JO TARNAWSKY (47:25)

stop the leg being cut in the first place. And so workplace recovery, maybe they’ve had issues or whatever, but it’s helping people understand some of these lesser known dynamics because things like it is high performing ethical people that are targeted. Once you know that it helps you be more alert to it. And like so many problems in this world, once you shine a light on that, it takes away a lot of the power.

DI GILLETT – Host (47:27)

place.

JO TARNAWSKY (47:51)

So if I can educate workplaces more on some of the things that I have learned ⁓ and to help them, then I kind of know you’re not just healing or helping the organization, but you’re changing lives. And so that’s what I’m going to do.

DI GILLETT – Host (48:10)

done you. Do you think you’ll ever get the chance to educate your old employer or would you like to?

JO TARNAWSKY (48:18)

I would love a chance actually to come and actually help the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service because as I said in my second press conference, my goal is not to destroy them. They are the best. They are better than anything we’ve had in the past. And there’s some really good people that are working there that saw the stories of Brittany Higgins and others that wanted to come and make a difference.

What has happened though is that the infrastructure has been set up to still protect the people in power. Now this happened in the UK and they actually had to adjust the independent mechanisms because they weren’t independent, which is what we’re finding here. And so there’s a real opportunity here for the parliamentary workplace support service, which is what came out of the, one of the things that came out of the Jenkins review and the standard to sort of learn some of the early examples of people that just talk to people like me about

How do we adjust this? Like to think that they would get it all right in one shot, it’s complex. know, this is decades of bad behavior that has been up at parliament. so learning that and making adjustments, because what I think it’s going to end up being is not seen as independent, not trustworthy, and that’s not in anyone’s interest. We want this to work. And so actually, that’s where I think I’d be more helpful is not just in terms of my own office and my own boss, but

DI GILLETT – Host (49:19)

JO TARNAWSKY (49:42)

in terms of the broader system because I do get contacted by parliamentary workers from every single political colour and also some of the public servants that are working on the hill or elsewhere, other pockets of the hill, not necessarily staffers. This is not limited to one office or one body.

DI GILLETT – Host (50:05)

Partisan

issue that needs a bipartisan approach.

JO TARNAWSKY (50:08)

Correct. Correct.

DI GILLETT – Host (50:10)

Well, Jo, thank you so very much for sharing your story on The Power of Women. And again, thank you for trusting me to talk to you about your story, because I know it has been an incredibly difficult stage in your life. But you’ve coped with tough things before, so you have proven the resilience and the strength that you have got to get through these.

and to move beyond and I wish you all the very best in your new business. And I know that there’ll be others who will benefit from the tough experiences that you have had and you can share some of that hindsight and help them moving forward. I do have a closing question for you today through the lens of the power of women and touching on having the right people in your circle. So for the woman listening who still might be searching for their circle,

How do we find them and how do we hold on to the right people?

JO TARNAWSKY (51:12)

I think finding them, part of that is that, rightly or wrongly, we call it women’s intuition, the people who make you feel calm and safe, ⁓ where your nervous system relaxes, where you feel that you can be yourself, who are actively cheering for your success and that they want to see you thrive. I think that’s the first thing. I think look for the people who step up ⁓ when you do go through hard times. ⁓

And then I think you need to be able to sort of give back to them as well. And you can find them in unexpected places. So they might be long term friends, they might be people in your life right now. But like I have also said, they can also be found online. There is a wonderful community out there and it’s people like you, Daya, to be honest. I hope you don’t mind me saying that you were one of the people that reached out to me.

while not exclusively have they been women, the vast majority of people who have reached out have been women. And so I think your podcast is aptly described ⁓ that sometimes there is real power of women ⁓ in supporting the successes and supporting people through harder times ⁓ to get through this life. You’re doing great work, Di, and I love

DI GILLETT – Host (52:33)

making me feel emotional now.

JO TARNAWSKY (52:38)

One of the things that brings me great joy in life is seeing other people thrive and live their best lives and particularly where they’re making an impact on others and you are doing all of those things.

DI GILLETT – Host (52:48)

and we look forward to you doing exactly the same, Jo. So thank you again, wishing you all the best. We are going to share the link to your new website. Is it joetanarski.com or is it?

JO TARNAWSKY (53:01)

Yes, it is. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well. I’m just starting up Instagram and a sub stack, so follow me there as well. But LinkedIn is where I have the biggest… Diving all in. That’s right. learned a lot. Brilliant.

DI GILLETT – Host (53:11)

Out.

Fantastic. Well, thank you for sharing. We will share that with the community. And for the listeners, I think this is such a super important episode to share with somebody in your network because we all have either somebody within our sphere or we have personally experienced tough times at work. the choice to speak out does not

come easily. know in my own life there is a scenario that I have never put out there into the public space because at the time the cost of speaking out, the cost of that was too high at that time. But you never know Jo, I just might have it in me yet. it is an example for individuals who need to bring something to the fore and right or wrong. Well done. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Find Jo Tarnawsky at:

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-t-94568417a/

Website www.jotarnawsky.com

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jo_tarnawsky/

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Next-Gen Leadership Breaking Barriers + Brand Building Via Social Media

by admin | Oct 13, 2025 | Exemplar, Female Empowerment, Female Leaders, Female Podcast

A masterclass on breaking barriers, self-reflection + building brand YOU.

Lana Samuels represents the future of leadership: fearless, curious, and unafraid to step into spaces still dominated by men. In this conversation, we explore her journey from graduate to global thinker, the role of social media in building her influence, and how she balances authenticity with professionalism while inspiring others online.

You’ll here:

➜ How Lana built her leadership career and carved out opportunities in male-dominated industries.

➜ The pivotal role of social media in amplifying her profile and shaping her success.

➜ Insights on balancing authenticity with professionalism online.

➜ Whether glass ceilings still exist for the next generation of women leaders.

➜ What drives Lana’s reinvention and her vision for the future of leadership.

Lana said:

“Social media wasn’t just about posting — it became the platform where I built my credibility.”

“Authenticity isn’t the opposite of professionalism. It’s what makes leadership relatable and real.”

“Glass ceilings? They only exist if we stop pushing against them.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

DI GILLETT – HOST (00:00)

So be remiss being the Power of Women podcast not to talk about females in a male-dominated industry. And I don’t want to overplay it, but it is in the wheelhouse of Power of Women. And particularly at the top end, which is where you’re playing, it’s largely male-dominated. How hard has it been breaking into that space? And how have your competitors responded?

LANA SAMUELS (00:27)

Great question. It has been hard. There’s one situation that really stands out as soon as you ask that question. I had a bit of a moment last year. I had a very good client of mine come to me and say, I had a bit of a moment with a competitor of yours the other day. And I said, really? He said, yeah, you know, I brought you up and he was a friend of his and he said, you know, Lana’s doing really well. You know, she’s sold recently for a friend of mine. There was some sort of,

story that he was saying and the male agent said, yeah, it’s because she’s a little bit too close to the husbands, if you know what I mean. And it broke my heart hearing that and still even saying that now really upsets me.

DI GILLETT – HOST (01:10)

So that’s the throwaway male line that’s got to be sex implied for a female to be successful.

LANA SAMUELS (01:16)

female in my industry to be successful. And it’s not something that I’ve really supposed

DI GILLETT – HOST (01:22)

are you angry or emotional?

LANA SAMUELS (01:24)

emotional about it and I was angry as well and I really I kind of fought back hard I thought do I call this guy

Lana Samuels, White Fox Director here this afternoon. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here. It’s been a long time coming, Di. When I think about my philosophy in business, I think it’s pretty simple. It’s do the right thing, never do anything illegal, and if you say you’re going to do something, make sure that you deliver. So I’ve always been in the ethos of under-promise and over-deliver and really nurture relationships because you’ve got one shot.

and reputation’s everything. Once you lose it, you never get it back.

DI GILLETT – HOST (02:02)

I’m Di Gillett and welcome to the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievements of women from all walks of life. And this is a shout out to join the Power of Women community because it is growing and it’s growing through our followers and our subscribers of the podcast. And we’ve also got our YouTube channel, which I’d love you to jump on.

I love exploring the journeys that shape remarkable careers, the choices, the sacrifices, the mentors and the lessons learnt along the way. Today’s conversation is a special one for me because my guest Lana Samuels quite literally grew up next door. I’ve had the pleasure of watching her journey, hearing her proud parents in all that she has achieved.

because what a journey it has been. And the reason I asked Lana to join me on the podcast, her success delves into what it really takes to rise in a competitive industry. Her ambition is fueled where resilience is tested. And in so doing, being recognized by her peers as an exemplar in an industry that doesn’t always get a great rap.

And it’s also an opportunity to get into the weeds about stepping into spaces still dominated by men and understand how Lana has been so successful in navigating that landscape, building credibility, earning respect and leading with both strength and authenticity. Lana Samuels, welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

LANA SAMUELS (03:45)

Thank you, Di. What a beautiful introduction. You’re going to make me a little bit emotional.

DI GILLETT – HOST (03:49)

And I know it’s only for us on camera today, but ⁓ your gorgeous mother is listening just outside the studio.

LANA SAMUELS (04:00)

is I’ve got my beautiful entourage with me today, my beautiful women. I’ve got Mum, who’s obviously a good friend of yours and my support system and my beautiful assistant Nellie. So the girls are all here celebrating one another and supporting. Beautiful.

DI GILLETT – HOST (04:15)

So as I’ve said, you’ve grown up next door to me and I have watched your career rise. But it’s not so much that I want to draw that part of the story today, but there are so many aspects of what you have done that are going to be inspirational, particularly for younger women starting out on their career and breaking barriers. I would love to…

Start out with your early years, Lara. What or who shaped your drive and ambition?

LANA SAMUELS (04:50)

think my mum is the person that always shaped my drive and ambition. mean, you know, our journey as a family, you know, we went through some very difficult times growing up and it’s really funny even just driving here and parking today and being outside the South Melbourne market. That’s where I worked from the age of 14 to 18. know, mum and dad always instilled a really strong work ethic in myself and my brother growing up. And if you want something,

You need to go out and get it. Nothing’s going to be delivered and, you know, given to you on a silver platter. So definitely mum and dad. Also, I’d say mum, just as a really strong female, she really showed me what it was to work hard from a very young age. And, you know, it’s, it’s an amazing thing to have a strong female mentor in your life. And, Di, I’m not just saying it because I’m sitting here, but having you as a neighbour, I don’t think you realise, I remember so vividly finishing year 12 and speaking to you about.

I don’t know if you remember. do. Mum and dad said, speak to Di. Di will give you some great advice. I remember it was the lead up to finishing VCE. I had a conversation with you about which direction to go into because I was so confused. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. You are giving me some beautiful advice. I’ve been really blessed in my life having such beautiful, strong, empowering women around me.

I think it’s just so incredibly special to have that in your life and I’m really lucky that I’ve had it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (06:17)

Did you always imagine yourself in a career like this?

LANA SAMUELS (06:21)

I thought I would be in event management. That’s where I thought I would land. I’ve always been a hard worker, really intense. I love throwing myself in the deep end. I get bored really easily and I don’t think I would have survived an office job. I love being with people, trying new things and having new experiences. So did I think I’d get into real estate? No, I thought I’d probably be.

DI GILLETT – HOST (06:44)

Remember we had that discussion when you came back from the UK and asked whether in fact you should.

LANA SAMUELS (06:48)

And I

was in tears one day speaking to you. I’ll never forget that moment. I asked you if I should get into real estate because we obviously, a bit of background on me, came back from the UK eight and a bit years ago. I moved back to Australia to join White Fox, which was a very small agency back then with only four of us. And I had a really rude awakening because I had no experience, no database.

no contacts after being in the UK for so many years. And I really just jumped in with a new brand that was trying to create noise. And funny enough, your other neighbor is now my business partner, Marty Fox. But to kind of unpack where I’m leading with this is I jumped in and drowned and I’m sure we’ll get to that in a moment. But I came to you in tears, really not sure what to do. And I remember you gave me some really great advice.

And I think it was along the lines of just keep going. You know, it’s not going to happen overnight. You know, if you love it and you love where it’s leading you and the right people, you know, you can do it. But nothing good comes easy.

DI GILLETT – HOST (07:51)

No, it does not. So let’s, as you said, wind back because it was almost happenstance that you ended up working at White Fox. What’s the story?

LANA SAMUELS (08:04)

It’s a crazy story. So I was living in London for 10 years. was coming back. I was in sales. So interesting story. I’ll go through it very quickly with you because it’s a long story. at the age of 18, I met my husband. I fell in love. He was from the UK. I told my mom and dad I was moving to the UK to go and do a year just to test it out.

DI GILLETT – HOST (08:10)

doing in

LANA SAMUELS (08:29)

told them that I had $10,000 in my bank account and I think I only had about $1,000 because I knew that they wouldn’t let me go. I never get, mom was like, how much money do you have savings? And I said, I’ve got over 10,000 and I didn’t, but I knew that, you know, I’d make it work, you know, sink or swim, just jump in and make it happen. So moved to the UK when I was 18, worked in sales in Mayfair for 10 years, working in five-star hotels, Michelin-star restaurants.

doing drink sales. I was doing all the big drinks distribution contracts for some of the best, biggest hotels, you know, and Mayfair night clubs. Having an absolute ball, came back for a holiday. Dad said to me, I’ve got to introduce you to our next door neighbor, a guy called Marty Fox. And I’ll never forget, I said to him, who’s Marty Fox? And dad said, he’s a real estate agent. And I rolled my eyes and said,

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:04)

the FMCG sector.

LANA SAMUELS (09:22)

Why do need to meet him? And he said, no, you’re looking to buy a property. Should meet him. He’s a lovely guy. He’s a go getter. ⁓ and I think you’ll get along with him really well. So dad introduced me to Marty, who was on the other side. So you’re on the right hand side of mom and dad. Marty and Charlotte were on the left hand side of mom and dad. we connected. Isn’t it? Well, straight, poor Melbourne. Everyone’s interconnected. Yeah. And met Marty, got along like a house on fire, bought my first property from him that day.

DI GILLETT – HOST (09:39)

insist

LANA SAMUELS (09:51)

in Elwood and as we were signing contracts, I remember him saying to me, Lana, I’m about to launch a brand in a few weeks called White Fox. He showed me the logo, the first office on Coventry Street in South Melbourne. he said, you’re going to come work for me. I’ve just got this feeling. And my husband said to me on the way home that day, you need to go and work with this boy. He is special. He’s entrepreneurial. He’s got magic about him and he’s going to do great things. So we went back to the UK.

And I started to watch the business unfold through social media and I was watching no suits, no ties, beautiful marketing. And they were really emotionally connecting with their audience. And I was the first client. I was the very first person that bought a property through the business before they launched. And as a customer, I was on the journey and I was completely engrossed in it. long story short, Marty said to me, you’ve got to come and move to Australia. Like I need you to join the business. And we kept in touch and.

I was watching and I said to my husband, think if we’re going to do it, we do it now. Whilst the business is young and I have some really good training and we don’t have kids yet. ⁓

DI GILLETT – HOST (10:59)

…a risk because,

LANA SAMUELS (11:02)

I know and I really took a big punt there, Di. You know, we packed up our whole world and moved back to Australia after 10 years, which is a big jump. It is. And moved in with Mum and Dad, next door to you. And the journey began.

DI GILLETT – HOST (11:14)

Next door to me?

So what role did you start as?

LANA SAMUELS (11:20)

So I made a huge mistake. So I jumped straight into the deep end. I jumped in as a standalone agent straight away and it was a disaster. know, brand new brand, really young team backs up against the wall, trying to create business, trying to create noise and never been in before. my girlfriends and my friends were younger, you know, we’re in our mid twenties and they weren’t doing the transactions. My best friend’s dad, you know, is one of the

founders and owners of one of the biggest agencies in Melbourne. So all of my friends’ parents were transacting with the agency that, you know, they had credibility in relationships and deep rooted relationships with. So I kind of just was in the middle of nowhere and had a full breakdown. I threw in the towel, I quit. After my first six months, you know, I really struggled coming in as a standalone agent, went to Marty’s house, on his kitchen floor, bawling my eyes out.

This probably would have been off the back of a conversation with you, die. So hard. No one’s given me an opportunity. There’s not many women out there that I really knew of or looked up to or anyone that was mentoring me in the industry. And I really struggled. So I threw in the towel and Marty said, you’re not throwing in the towel. You’re to come in and be my EA and I’m going to teach you everything that you need to know. You need to start with the basics and learn and build.

DI GILLETT – HOST (12:39)

How did that feel? You’d already established a career so then to step back.

LANA SAMUELS (12:44)

It was

quite confronting and my ego stepped in and I really hesitated there for a moment and I thought well hold on I’ve just had this incredible career in the UK, a huge team, I worked with billionaires, were travelling and they were flying me everywhere for business opportunities over there and had this incredible lifestyle. Why do want to be in EA? And I’m going to be back to the bottom of the ladder. So that was a really hard decision and a really difficult moment for me and it was quite confronting.

But I had to swallow my pride and I had to listen to somebody that was incredibly good at what they were doing and someone that I really looked up to and trusted and still do. And I had to back him and he made the right call there because it changed everything for me. It’s the best thing that I ever did. I started again and I had to step it back.

DI GILLETT – HOST (13:32)

So how long was that trajectory from EA? Because today you’re a director. Managing director.

LANA SAMUELS (13:38)

Managing director.

The journey was, it was a good four years. Yeah, it took me four years. That’s nothing. But the four years, it’s really funny. I spoke about it earlier this year, was a keynote speaker at the biggest real estate conference in Australasia. Yep. Correct. Eric. So I spoke in front of six and a half thousand peers within the industry.

And I was actually the only female keynote speaker other than Kamala Harris, which is pretty mind blowing. But I spoke about the journey in the four years. I don’t think she has either. But the four years that I did as an EA, I would say is equivalent to about 15 years in the industry. That was a supercharged crash course. that’s a hundred miles an hour. And don’t forget real estate is 24 seven pretty much. You’re seven days a week. There’s no off button.

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:12)

She sold any real estate.

LANA SAMUELS (14:32)

And I think for me, jumping in the early days, you know, and starting off in a brand that was just really beginning to build, I got exposed to a lot of things that no one would ever get exposed to now. Now we have 15 offices across Australia and New Zealand, but back then there was one office, second one opening, and I got to see every layer of the deal, every layer of recruiting, everything that was going right, everything that was going wrong.

DI GILLETT – HOST (14:56)

And you had more of Marty’s time. So he was more available back then.

LANA SAMUELS (15:00)

It was

perfect. It was really good timing. I’m very lucky that I got that opportunity, but I really grabbed it with both hands. I made the most of it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:09)

So title today of Managing Director, are you where you envisaged you would be at this point in your career?

LANA SAMUELS (15:18)

Yes, further along than what I thought, but I always had a really clear vision in my mind. So my gut is never wrong. I always trust my gut feeling. I knew there was something incredibly special about Marty and what he had in mind. He told me the journey trajectory from the very start and everything that he promised that he would do, he’s done and more. So

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:24)

Tell me about that.

LANA SAMUELS (15:45)

Along the journey, I knew that some pretty big opportunities were coming. And I knew very special. He’s like my brother, you know, absolutely adore him. I always said to Marty that I wanted to be a director within the business, but before I was 40. So and I’m now 36. I had that really clear goal. Hit it early. Yeah.

DI GILLETT – HOST (15:52)

special relation.

You’ve hit it early.

I don’t know many 36 year old managing directors, Lana. Female.

LANA SAMUELS (16:16)

There you go. There’s not a lot.

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:17)

That is amazing. So you’ve also built not only an impressive career, but a really strong personal brand and social, your social media presence, it’s engaged, it’s polished, it resonates and it draws ⁓ a high attention out there in the world of Instagram. How intentional was that from the beginning?

LANA SAMUELS (16:40)

Thank you.

Intentional. Yeah. So I knew that I had an uphill battle because I didn’t have contacts when I joined the business and when I got into real estate and I didn’t have a big following on Instagram when I came back to Melbourne. many did I had about 500 people. ⁓ Yeah it was a small following. was friends, family, people from the UK. And today? 12 and a bit thousand. Yeah.

DI GILLETT – HOST (16:56)

Any digital?

LANA SAMUELS (17:08)

So I knew that if I wanted to really create noise, build credibility, get attention in the right way and build my networks and my relationships that I would have to think bigger and I would have to think smart because I’d been away for so many years. So to put myself on a platform and to create a story, which is what real estate is all about, it’s about storytelling and connection. I knew that I wanted to create a bit of a brand online and a presence.

and I knew that that would fast track and amplify my career in a very short period of time if I did it correctly. And when I first began, I looked around and I don’t really have any females within my industry that I looked up to. Real estate was very different back then. was, you know, and that’s not long ago. This is, I’m talking eight years ago. know, very corporate, you know, the females always in Navy or black and

the traditional approach and you know which I love Navy of Black, don’t get me wrong. ⁓ was just, there was uniforms almost and no one was pushing the boundaries and I was lucky that Marty was pushing the boundaries in his way with his fashion you know the loafers, no suits, no tires, no socks and you probably remember it watching him jump out into the car on Port Melbourne as a neighbour.

DI GILLETT – HOST (18:07)

But not good.

LANA SAMUELS (18:29)

But I thought, hold on, why can’t I have fun with it? And I’ve come from a fashion background. Mum’s been in fashion. I love colour. I love experimenting. So I started to really be playful with it. And I started to be myself and I’m in a bright pink dress today. This is how I dress for business. But at the time, no one was doing it in property videos and in real estate. So I thought, I’m just going to be me and just have fun with it. And then I started to try and be a little bit more strategic with it. I started to match my properties. And that became a thing.

and I’ll never forget I had a big beautiful listing in Turok and it was my first trophy listing that Marty put me on. He said I’m going get you to do the video here, 16 million dollar house in Turok and I walked into the kitchen and there was a beautiful duck egg blue because the internal carcass of the kitchen was a Stephen A. Kirst home, extraordinary, was duck egg blue and I thought I’m going to go and buy a duck egg blue dress. Where am going to find a duck egg blue dress and I don’t know where I found it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (19:27)

can’t think of a male going, I’m gonna match my tie to…

LANA SAMUELS (19:31)

But

I started to do it and I went out and bought shoes and a dress that matched. was something so small but as soon as it went live and it went out on social media and it went out to the meta universe, people really stopped and you know, started commenting on it and it got a lot of attention and then that started to roll and then I started to match property videos moving forward and then now I have clients asking me, what are you wearing for our video? They’re excited by it.

It shows that you care and it ensures that you’re memorable and it became my thing. was it strategic? Yes, in a way it was. Did I expect that it would go to this level? No, but I was just being myself. has exceeded your expectations.

DI GILLETT – HOST (20:11)

Yeah. And therein lies the danger for any employers because it’s which brand walks through the door first. And that’s been the same in my industry and I think it’s the same in any service industry. And if I could leave that as a message for any listeners, in developing a brand, sometimes the brand that

is above the door isn’t as powerful as the brand that walks through the door. And therein lies a challenge for employees and employers as to how one manages that scenario. your online presence was intentional. Is anybody else doing the same as you in the marketplace? have they started to follow you?

LANA SAMUELS (20:52)

Absolutely.

Now,

it’s funny because as a brand, we were ridiculed in the beginning with our social media. You know, I remember so clearly other agencies against us in listing appointments with Laugh and Snigger and White Fox, you know, you can’t sell through social media. This was so early in the piece. We were the only ones who really took it to the next level. We were having such fun with it and being so creative and pushing boundaries and really disrupting the industry from the traditional.

way of doing things and introducing cars, introducing fashion, introducing beautiful video music content. You know, I did a video not long ago where I had, and it sounds ridiculous, five outfit changes for one video, a big home in Brighton, but I wanted the buyer experience to move through the home with me and really feel how you can live in the home, you know, from the poolside down to the area downstairs, which is the speak easy bar, changed outfits to make it memorable.

But then we’ll also know that I care, but it’s also about having fun with it. So we always did push the boundaries and have fun and do things differently. At the start, they did laugh and ridicule and now they’re trying to copy. So it’s funny we giggle. You know you’re winning. You know you’re winning, but you’ve got to keep pushing the boundaries and being nimble and changing. So like we were discussing before we jumped online, you’ve got to constantly be fresh thinking of new ideas and people do catch up, but we’re still doing things that no one’s ever done before, which is really cool.

DI GILLETT – HOST (22:31)

So have you found any female mentors in the industry? Marty’s clearly been in industry, but have you found other women prepared to mentor

LANA SAMUELS (22:39)

I have, I found some beautiful, powerful women and again, back to the power of social media, connecting through socials, know, meeting incredible operators from all across Australia. I’ve got two beautiful mentors in Sydney that have been in real estate for 20 odd years that are phenomenal operators that I really look up to and lean on for advice. I’ve got incredible women in Melbourne, people overseas that I connect with that I’ve met through social media. It just really unlocks.

so many powerful relationships. So this world through my phone has really opened up a completely different pathway for me and connected me with some extraordinary women out there that are really inspiring.

DI GILLETT – HOST (23:20)

That’s fantastic. Well coming out we’re going to talk about breaking the glass ceiling. Yes. And the cost of success. If you’re loving the Power of Women podcast, be sure to jump on to our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

Glass ceilings Lana, and I have a controversial view on glass ceilings that isn’t always ⁓ well received by my female peers. Do you feel there that they exist? Do you feel you have one?

LANA SAMUELS (23:51)

Yeah

I feel that they do exist and they’re there to be smashed.

DI GILLETT – HOST (24:03)

There we go, straight up. So what about your peer group and your friendship group of women of similar age? What are they saying about glass ceilings in the industries that they’re working in?

LANA SAMUELS (24:05)

You

think for me personally, my girlfriends have chosen careers where they’re quite different to mine, not as male orientated, if I’m being completely honest. Majority of my girlfriends are in the design space and they’re in spaces where there’s a lot more female successful operators. So I wouldn’t say that I’ve had the exposure from like, they’re in fashion, they’re in the creative space.

They’re in design and typically speaking has a lot more females within that world. I wouldn’t say that the glass ceilings have been as

within my friendship circles. For me, think I’ve probably seen it the most out of all of us.

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:04)

So reflecting back on starting out and pushing through, when did you first start to hit it and have to… Your words smashed…

LANA SAMUELS (25:10)

So, yeah,

Smash Through would have been about three and a half years ago. So I came out of being an EA into what’s called a standalone agent role three and a half years ago, close to four.

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:22)

How hard was that transition? Because often transitioning within an organisation is difficult because garnering respect from one role to the next role can be really hard to

LANA SAMUELS (25:34)

Well, it was really hard for me because I was always, you on the side with Marty. He was the lead. So I was the EA, absolutely loved it, built some incredible relationships. But you were the second wheel. when it was funny, Marty actually sat me down one day and said, hey, as much as I would love you to be my EA until I’m 90 years old, because we just have a ball and we work so well together, I would be doing you a disservice to keep you in this role when you

DI GILLETT – HOST (25:46)

With a second wish

LANA SAMUELS (26:03)

are writing the numbers that you’re writing. You should be a top female operator in Australia. And this is your moment to go. Like, I’m going to have to cut you off, unfortunately. That’s so… Very selfless. ⁓ does Yeah. I was so upset because real estate’s hard. You know, it’s…

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:14)

That doesn’t happen so many times.

LANA SAMUELS (26:27)

It’s very up and down. It’s not a stable industry. And if you do it, you’ve to be 150 % dialed in. you can’t do it part time. It’s really quite difficult. he didn’t hold me back. It was the best thing that he ever did for me at the time I was upset because I didn’t want to have that responsibility, but I just did it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (26:47)

correlations between real estate and the recruitment and search world that I came out of. It’s very similar.

LANA SAMUELS (26:52)

It’s very similar. So I jumped in to a standalone agent role and opened an office within the space of two weeks, hired a team of 10 males within the same week and hired my beautiful EA. So there was a million things that happened at once that I just jumped into. And that was how I broke out to become a standalone agent. But to go back to your question about, you know, when did I feel the ceiling? Like, what was that moment? It would have been when I…

went out and started to have to pitch a business by myself as a female with all of sudden all of this responsibility with a team to train, with mouths to feed, know, with salaries to pay for and essentially being on commission only, which is what you are as a

DI GILLETT – HOST (27:36)

running a profit centre. Correct.

LANA SAMUELS (27:38)

Yeah. So that was the moment and really going in and competing only against men, which was what was happening when I first started. was EAs that were females, but I wasn’t going head to head with female standalone agents.

DI GILLETT – HOST (27:54)

Did the marketplace respond if you were going out and pitching to a potential client and the client was male? How did that go for you?

LANA SAMUELS (28:01)

Well, I had a beautiful experience and I’m really blessed to say that. I always say to my clients 90 % of the yes. And it’s also knowing when to turn away business, which I’m very good at doing. Not everyone’s going to be on your same wavelength and respect you and you meet people from time to time where you’re like, oh, you’re not for me and that’s okay. Real estate is quite intense because you’re in someone’s home.

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:09)

That’s down to you.

LANA SAMUELS (28:26)

And it’s an intense process because you’re across the emotions, the finances. Like, you’re in their world and their space. So you see a lot and you see the good. So my experience going in was incredible. You know, I am a hard worker, as I think you know. You know, I never stop. If I’m in, 100%.

DI GILLETT – HOST (28:36)

Dabbing the ugly

LANA SAMUELS (28:48)

And I started off small and built my way up from there, but I started off, I was very lucky that I tapped into my past clientele that I’d been nurturing over the four years of being an EA. And I tapped into my network of people that I’d been building and then making the change and, you know, the standalone agents through social media had a lot of people reaching out to me and saying, hey, why don’t you come and have a look at my house? So I was really lucky. they were coming to you? Yeah, it started, it of came out of nowhere.

But I’ve been doing so much work behind the scenes for years. Next to Marty, you know, we’d be taking on clients, he would list, he would sell, but I’d be nurturing on the buyers and building those relationships. And then all of a sudden, they were needing to transact, buy or sell again. So it’d be coming to me. So I was really lucky, but it was a lot of strategic work in the background to nurture those relationships so that when it was time to kind of move out, everything started to fall into place for me.

DI GILLETT – HOST (29:42)

So you’ve seen, look, this is all the upside and this is all the positives, but there’s absolutely sacrifices that come with success. Can we talk about what some of those have been?

LANA SAMUELS (29:55)

Missing my best friend’s wedding last year and being a bridesmaid. ⁓ Not being able to go overseas because it’s peak season in real estate. Being spring really hard. That was a really difficult decision for me to make.

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:08)

received by the people on the other end.

LANA SAMUELS (30:11)

understanding but really hurt, like devastated. ⁓ And that was purely I had to make a business decision. We were in a very difficult space as a market, you know, all the interest rates, I had to claw back business and being a high performer and managing a team. I could not step away for three weeks and leave my team like that.

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:31)

anniversary performance results to deliver.

LANA SAMUELS (30:35)

And clients that wanted, you know, that have expectations they list with me, they’re expecting me at the front door. can’t just tap out.

DI GILLETT – HOST (30:42)

be seen in a photo across the world.

LANA SAMUELS (30:44)

Exactly,

drinking a cocktail. Sometimes you can. It’s a very hard one though, Di, because you need boundaries and you need to have a life. But I had to make that decision, unfortunately, that I had to put the business first in this occasion. She knows I love her and, you know, that it wasn’t an easy decision, but there’s been sacrifices of big milestones and moments, but little things, you know. I was working seven days a week for the first five years.

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:10)

How is he still working now? ⁓

LANA SAMUELS (31:12)

I’m doing big hours. It’s six days a week now. I have Sundays that are a non-negotiable. It is what it is. And I love it though. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Like for me, it’s not work. you. Yeah, it fuels me. It’s a pleasure. You have your moments, your good moments and your bad moments. But if you’re looking at your watch in this industry, it’s not for you. it. It’s just not. The phone starts at 7 a.m. It will probably stop at about 10, 30, 11 o’clock for me because by the time people finish work,

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:17)

No.

Yeah.

LANA SAMUELS (31:41)

They’re wanting to have those conversations with you, so you’ve got to be available and that’s very hard.

DI GILLETT – HOST (31:46)

And I heard a few of those over the fence. know how long the hours are. And the search world’s the same. I used to work on an international time clock. International time clock was 24 hours.

LANA SAMUELS (31:58)

Yeah, exactly. Nonsensical. It’s intense and you can only do it if you love it. Otherwise you hit breaking point and then you just phase out.

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:07)

So were there ever moments or have there been moments where you feel you’ve bitten off more than you can chew?

LANA SAMUELS (32:14)

Weekly.

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:16)

Well there’s clarity. What are the sorts of things that trigger that feeling? What could it be? As small as what and as big as what?

LANA SAMUELS (32:17)

⁓ Daily.

you know, it’s, don’t think anyone prepares you on as much as I love it. How hard it is managing people and managing a team. know, for me, I’m… Great. No one warned me at how hard it would be. No, I love my team, but it’s a lot of responsibility. can have all sorts of different shapes and sizes. So for me, I think one of the biggest challenges is time. I’m listing, I’m selling, I’m dealing with people’s most, you know,

DI GILLETT – HOST (32:33)

That’s why there’s a whole industry.

LANA SAMUELS (32:54)

their biggest assets and some of the biggest moments in their lives and it’s money, you know, it’s important. So I’m doing that and I’m generating, I’m the biggest generator in my office and running my business and my clientele and then having 10 people that I’m managing on a daily that can be up, that can be down, that need this, that need that, they need support, they need deal mechanics, they need a problem fixed or a code crack. So for me, I think my biggest challenge is time. But I’m really trying to be mindful of it.

and use my time really wisely, but I’m very emotional and it’s something that I’m trying to improve on. I want everything to be perfect. is. Attention to detail perfectionists. So I’ve got to sometimes learn to pull back, but that’s the thing that I struggle with at the moment. I want everyone to be happy, perfect, everything on point, but there’s only so much I can do.

DI GILLETT – HOST (33:30)

of your coaching.

Leave that at the door!

And that perfectionism trait, and I know it, only too well, leaves you being your own toughest master and worst enemy. However, not delivering to that level or presenting to that level or showing up at that level is more stressful.

LANA SAMUELS (33:57)

Yeah, very true

Very much.

Very true. I couldn’t say it better myself. I’d rather have that pressure than not do it, because if I wasn’t doing it, I probably wouldn’t be able to get out of bed.

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:17)

So you’ve been recognised as one of the top 100 agents in Australia now. Yes. You’ve got to that level. How much pressure comes with staying at that level?

LANA SAMUELS (34:29)

I think it’s what you put on yourself. No one puts pressure on me like I put on myself. So it’s a huge accolade, something that I’m incredibly proud of because there’s not many females on that list and not many females under 40 on that list. Not the stats off the top of my head, but from when I looked at it, I thought, wow, there’s not a lot of women in here and there should be a lot more because there’s so many incredible operators within my industry. Look, it’s, it’s an incredible,

DI GILLETT – HOST (34:44)

Do you that’s

LANA SAMUELS (34:59)

accolade as I said, but the pressure is you just got to perform for your clients daily and those awards and those celebrations come along the way. It’s not why I do it. Exactly right. Exactly right. So it’s great, but you keep it moving. It’s on to the next.

DI GILLETT – HOST (35:08)

Then you’re only as good as you last year.

So be remiss being the Power of Women podcast not to talk about females in a male-dominated industry. And I don’t want to overplay it, but it is in the wheelhouse of Power of Women. And particularly at the top end, which is where you’re playing, it’s largely male-dominated. I could reel off the ones in our neck of the woods, and they’re all male. How hard has it been

breaking into that space and how have your competitors responded?

LANA SAMUELS (35:52)

That’s a great question. It has been hard. ⁓ There’s one situation that really stands out as soon as you ask that question. had a bit of a moment last year. I had a very good client of mine ⁓ come to me and say, I had a bit of a moment with a competitor of yours the other day. And I said, really? He said, yeah, you know, I brought you up and he was a friend of his and he said, you know, Lana’s doing really well. You know, she’s…

So recently for a friend of mine, there was some sort of story that he was saying and the male agent said, yeah, it’s because she’s a little bit too close to the husbands, if you know what I mean. And it broke my heart hearing that and still even saying that now really upsets me.

DI GILLETT – HOST (36:38)

That’s

the throwaway male line that’s got to be sex implied for a female to be successful.

LANA SAMUELS (36:43)

young

female in my industry to be successful and it’s not something that I’ve really spoken about.

DI GILLETT – HOST (36:50)

Free all emotions.

LANA SAMUELS (36:52)

emotional about it and I was angry as well and I really I kind of fought back hard I thought do I call this guy I told my husband he was horrified and so upset because he’s seen the sacrifices and he’s seen you know the hours that I do and the tears along the way and all the things that we as a team have sacrificed for me to be sitting where I am. Team, and Yeah such a slap in the face and just such a low blow.

I started really kicking his ass in listing appointments and taking more business from him. I to mom, I spoke to dad and I spoke to people within my nucleus and said, what would you do? And think it was mom that said, don’t do anything, just silence and show him how good you really are. That’s, you know, it was very,

DI GILLETT – HOST (37:26)

Money speaks fully

LANA SAMUELS (37:43)

easy to pick up the phone and make that call I was very close and I thought, no, I’m going to be a real lady about this. I’m going to show you. I’m going to show you how good I actually am. And, you know, it’s funny. I think he knows that I know. We have never had the conversation. I’m really polite to him when I see him because reputation is everything. I said earlier, you’ve got one shot and I want to be. Yeah. I just think, look, you’re going to say that because you’re threatened. And mum always says it’s when they stop talking about you. That’s when you should be worried.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:11)

That’s exactly right.

LANA SAMUELS (38:12)

You

know, so if they’re talking it’s a good thing. When they stop you might be in bit of trouble.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:18)

So do you feel the industry is shifting now?

LANA SAMUELS (38:21)

Definitely. And I’ve really seen it in our business. We’ve got over 50 % of our agents are female within the company, which is amazing. Marty. Marty’s been a driver and pioneer of really amplifying women and pushing us and.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:33)

Who’s driving that?

And he has sticked.

LANA SAMUELS (38:42)

getting us as much limelight as we can. I all the women are pushing it and we’ve got incredible female auctioneers and just so many beautiful personalities and strong independent women within the company.

DI GILLETT – HOST (38:53)

don’t think I’ve seen a female auctioneer in action.

LANA SAMUELS (38:57)

They’re very good. Yeah. See our girls are unbelievable. yeah, it’s definitely changing diet. You know, even when I look back five years ago, even in the business, there was only a handful of us females, a lot of men, but there’s a lot of women coming through the ranks now and a lot of women.

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:13)

And your social media will be playing a significant role in that.

LANA SAMUELS (39:18)

Thank I get a lot of women from across Australia messaging me, know, saying, you’ve really inspired me. I got into real estate because of you and you’ve, you know, shown me that I can be myself and that’s so touching and beautiful to hear that. And, you know, I get messages daily. Nellie’s started creating a bit of a scrapbook of all the beautiful messages that I’ve received over the years and it’s really, really special.

DI GILLETT – HOST (39:42)

So what would you like to see change still? What still needs to happen?

LANA SAMUELS (39:47)

We’ve definitely made a lot of movement. I think it’s getting a lot better. I think women across the board in high-powered positions in real estate could really open up and change. There’s still a lot of the old school mentality out there. Us as a business, we’re very different, but I think as an industry, I think we need to open up the floor for more strong female operators and more opportunities at the top.

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:14)

Yeah. So real estate aside, what advice would you give to any young woman starting to her career, pushing into a male dominated space?

LANA SAMUELS (40:29)

beautiful strong mentors around you, people that inspire you.

Don’t take no as an answer. And I would say, if you want it, you can make it happen. There’s nothing that is out of your reach. I look at where I started and what I’m doing today. I knew where I wanted to go. I set a really clear timeline of what I wanted to hit and I made it happen and I got my head down and did it. So nothing’s impossible. If you want it, go and get it.

DI GILLETT – HOST (40:38)

Yeah. ⁓

My last question for you today, Lana, is what is a phrase that defines you?

LANA SAMUELS (41:07)

what is the phrase that defines me? That’s a great one.

I think just I’m a hard worker. Anyone that’s worked with me knows that I give 150 % to everything I do and if I can’t, I won’t do it. I’m all in. Yep.

DI GILLETT – HOST (41:27)

Brilliant. Lana, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. know hearing what you’ve done and how you’ve done it is going to be inspirational for so many women listening to this because age aside, you’ve broken into a male-dominated space. You have done it in record time to the level of managing director and you have

held your head high and taken the high road when individuals from the not so fair sex have been not so fair. Thank you. And I have no doubt that you’ll be taking their business away from them any time soon. So congratulations.

LANA SAMUELS (42:14)

Thank you for all your beautiful support over the years. From the bottom of my heart. ⁓

DI GILLETT – HOST (42:19)

It’s easy to give, So that is absolutely wonderful. But it is a reminder of how sort of blending my past career with my new career in amplifying women’s voices comes together. And you’re a great example of that. thank you. And thank you for listening. Until next time.

LANA SAMUELS (42:36)

Very special.

Connect with Di:

Find Lana Samuels at:

Website https://www.whitefoxrealestate.com.au/team/lana-samuels/

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lana.samuels/?hl=en

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How To Reclaim Pleasure and Power in Midlife

by admin | Sep 22, 2025 | Female Empowerment, Female Leaders, Female Podcast, Female Power

Midlife doesn’t have to mean burnout, invisibility, or decline. It can be the moment you reclaim your pleasure, power, and presence.

In this Power Of Women Podcast episode, I’m joined by Natty Frasca, Pleasure Coach, rebel rouser, and founder of The Feminine Rebellion. Together we unpack why so many high-achieving women feel unfulfilled despite “having it all,” and how the key to transformation lies in reconnecting with pleasure in all its forms.

From the neuroscience of pleasure to challenging the myths of aging, Natty shares why visibility is an act of rebellion, and how every woman can own the room she walks into. Not through performance, but through presence.

If you’ve ever felt numb, disconnected, or pressured to keep “holding it all together,” this conversation is the reminder that midlife isn’t your crisis ~ it’s your revolution.

We explore:

➜ What pleasure really means beyond sex

➜ Why aging is a superpower, not a decline

➜ How visibility can transform your confidence and power

Natty said:

“Aging is our superpower.”

“Stop apologizing for wanting more.”

“The most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.”

💥 New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

📖 Read the full transcript of this conversation here:

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

NATTY (00:00)

So I am Natty Frasca, rebel rouser, pleasure coach for midlife women. I’m obsessed with helping women live turned on lives. I’m a mom of three. I’m a total nerd, lover of science, pleasure and sisterhood, especially at this stage of our lives. I believe our age is our superpower. ⁓ And I believe that it’s time women stop playing small.

And I’m also the founder of the Feminine Rebellion.

DI (00:33)

I’m Di Gillett and this is the Power of Women podcast. We’re a platform that showcases and celebrates the strength, resilience and achievement of women from all walks of life. And this is your seat at the table. So hit follow and the subscribe button and make sure you are sure to be part of every bold, unfiltered, game-changing story we tell here at the Power of Women podcast.

Today my guest is Natty Frasca and she is a fierce advocate for midlife as your revolution. Joining me from Boston, she’s here to flip the script on aging, on success and what it really means to feel alive again. So where are we going to talk about the neuroscience of pleasure, reclaiming your power at any age and how to own every damn room you walk into. Natty Frasca.

Welcome to the Power of Women podcast.

NATTY (01:33)

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for having me here. It’s my absolute pleasure, and I mean that.

DI (01:40)

Nettie, for those who are just meeting you in my part of the world, all for my international followers, tell us a little about who you are.

NATTY (01:50)

Yeah, sure. So I’m the founder of the Feminine Rebellion. I am a coach for midlife women who look like they have it all on the outside, but feel little numb, burned out, or like something is missing. And I help these women unbind from all of the BS conditioning about

how women are supposed to behave, ⁓ who we should be and help them connect with their own pleasure, with power, with presence. ⁓ Yeah, I believe when a woman comes alive, she becomes completely unstoppable. And there’s a massive ripple effect to that. ⁓ It changes families, communities and the world. So I’m here for big things.

DI (02:43)

Fabulous. So could we start with just a little bit about your story? Because you were in the corporate world, married, three kids, beautiful home, successful career. But as I understand it, there was a pivot point for you because it didn’t all gel.

NATTY (03:01)

It didn’t all gel. was, it happened over a few years where I just started feeling really numb. I remember lying in bed and thinking, you know, there’s something off. Why aren’t I happy? I feel like I have all of this, you know, why aren’t I grateful for it? And there was actually quite a bit of shame and guilt attached to that.

I actually asked for a divorce at that time. I thought if I just burned down my marriage, ⁓ I would be free to do what I wanted. Well, it’s a we had been in couples therapy for years and it’s a really interesting story and this is probably like the pivot point for me. ⁓ We were in a couple therapy session and I just decided I wanted out and I wanted to kind of start a fresh life and

DI (03:41)

How did that go?

NATTY (04:00)

My therapist, our therapist said, so, you know, what do you want? And I said, you know, a condo in the center of town, someone to shovel my walkway, you know, a nanny and, you know, probably like a lover or two. And he laughed and he’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what I meant. ⁓ Let me ask it a different way, Natty. ⁓ How do you, how do you want to feel? How do you want to feel? And I was like, wait.

I don’t understand the question. How do I want to feel? I was completely stumped. you know, grew up in the youngest of three kids, Italian American family, very, you know, Catholic, really learned how to work hard, how to hustle, how to keep up with the boys. I never thought about how I wanted to feel.

⁓ But I paused and what came to me was a vision and it was this vision of myself at my kitchen counter stirring like a pot of my grandmother’s ragu. Jerry Garcia is on the radio. I’ve got three little kids. They’re dancing wildly and my husband comes up behind me, rests his beard on my neck, puts a glass of Cabernet next to me and like wraps his arms around my waist.

And I started to cry. And I was like, that’s, I described what I saw and I said, that’s how I want to feel. I want to feel seen, adored, taken care of, revered like a queen. I want to be the center of your universe. I want to feel. And it was, as I was saying those words, I was so, I was kind of embarrassed.

DI (05:46)

You felt how far you were from that?

NATTY (05:50)

Well, no, I was embarrassed because I thought of myself as this real hustle go-getter feminist.

DI (05:57)

And that’s not what you’re asking for. Yeah.

NATTY (06:00)

Yeah. And what I, when I paused and dropped in and thought about what I really wanted and it just came to me, it was the opposite of what I thought I wanted. You know, I had a high powered career. I was a, you know, it was like a Girl Scout leader. I was, you know, cooking organic meals from scratch and batching them in my, I mean, I was like,

Martha Stewart meets, I don’t know, whatever, you know.

DI (06:32)

On steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

NATTY (06:34)

Yeah. And I like didn’t care about, you know, I was like, I can’t believe I actually, all I want is love. And all I want to do is slow down. And then that was like, cracked something open in me. And I thought I’ve been doing all of this wrong. And in that moment, my husband said to me, well, I can’t believe you’re saying this. Like, I want to give that to you, but you won’t let me.

DI (07:01)

way.

NATTY (07:03)

And I was like, what? And so that was the beginning of us kind of repairing our marriage. But really, it was the beginning of my own personal journey. That it was like, I don’t need to be so tough. I don’t need to be so fierce in that way only. I can also be like fiercely, I can be an advocate for myself.

And that, you know, wanting to slow down, wanting to be loved, wanting to be touched, wanting to be adored. So that was 10 years ago. Yeah. So it’s been a journey of unbecoming, unbinding from all of these narratives that I had inherited ⁓ and, you know, reclaiming pleasure for myself, for no one else, stopping people pleasing.

really becoming so beautifully selfish ⁓ and just coming alive. So that’s a long answer to your question.

DI (08:00)

Yeah.

And can I ask, did the marriage make it or did you?

NATTY (08:12)

Yes, my god, yes. Wow. Yeah, so we’re 23 years in.

DI (08:16)

congratulations. That’s pretty cool because you were right up against the glass of walking away by the sounds of it.

NATTY (08:24)

I had a lawyer. Yeah. I was, yeah, I was, I was ready to go and, you know, he said, let’s, you know, let’s, let’s try it a different way. And, you know, I don’t believe in sunshine and rainbows and unicorns and everything’s perfect. You know, it’s just, that’s bullshit as far as I’m concerned. So I’ve, ⁓ committed this marriage. We are friends. We have shit. Of course. Right.

DI (08:51)

Have a shit. Yeah.

NATTY (08:53)

I’ve coached hundreds of women and even ones who were happily married. You know, we all think about burning it down from moment to moment, to month. I mean, come on.

DI (09:10)

We do. I’m just about to hit 20 years and you know, right? You’d be lying if you said it was all good. That’s just not how the world works.

NATTY (09:20)

be lying. But this is the thing is that like people do lie and people do pretend. And that is what I’m here to help dismantle is that the more women that can actually tell the truth and show their cards and be honest.

about where they are in their lives, I mean, the stronger their collective becomes, right? We don’t have to do this work alone. It’s like we’ve been taught to pretend. We’ve been taught to like say, I’m fine. It’s all good. When on the inside, we’re dying. And that’s where it was 10 years ago. You know, everyone thought that I had it all.

DI (10:05)

So with the work you’re doing with high achieving women and them getting really honest with themselves, is there a common thread going around and the narrative of commonality or is it all unique?

NATTY (10:21)

It’s pretty common. It’s pretty common. It’s, it’s, I’ve checked every box, but I still feel empty. I miss feeling sexy and free and alive. I’m exhausted from holding it all together for everyone. ⁓ I want more, but I don’t even know what that looks like. They’re all carrying so much and

They’re terrified that wanting more makes them selfish or a bad person or ungrateful. ⁓ But they’re really craving a life where they feel fully themselves, where they feel purposeful, where they feel on fire, where they feel free. ⁓ So it’s really same, same.

DI (11:12)

Yeah and in terms of, mean I’m asking this almost knowing the answer but I’m often surprised. What is the common age where the wheels start to fall off?

NATTY (11:24)

45, 46 when they start to fall off. ⁓

50 when they decide something has to change. Yeah.

It’s like a magic moment. It’s I don’t know whether it’s like it’s just the halfway point. It’s a really clean line. But 50 just seems to be like a switch.

DI (11:40)

Mm-hmm.

Sure is, but…

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk about pleasure because I know that’s one of your ⁓ big calling cards. Yeah. Why do so many women disconnect from it? What’s the reason?

NATTY (12:10)

Well, we live in a patriarchal society that has completely disconnected us from pleasure because we’re taught from a very early age

DI (12:21)

perform.

NATTY (12:24)

Yeah, exactly. To perform, to slap a smile on our face, to produce, to please everyone around us but ourselves. And those narratives, you I call it the patriarchal pathway. So, you know, it’s a very well-worn pathway for how a woman should be in the world, right? So you should do well in school.

You should dress like a lady, cross your legs. Notice my legs up on my desk. I’m actively rebelling. ⁓ You know, do well in school. ⁓ You know, level up in your career. Find a man to marry, have children, continue, you know, please take care of, be the epicenter of this family. Take care of everyone else. Be the emotional caregiver and the physical caregiver. And

You know, it doesn’t stop, right? We emotionally care give our male partners. you know, we just never have, has anyone taught us to be in touch with what we want or what turns us on, right? And

you know, when I talk about pleasure, people’s minds immediately go to the hypersexual. Yeah. But it isn’t just about sex. That’s one part of it. That’s one end of the spectrum. But really pleasures anything that lights you up, anything that engages your senses and makes you feel alive. It’s it’s dancing to your favorite music. It’s eating.

your lunch, you know, outside on your stoop in the sunshine, right? It’s deep belly laughs with like your sisterhood. It’s also maybe stillness in the forest. It’s so unique, right? But pleasure is also deep presence with yourself. It’s like the moment where you drop out of your head and into your body. And

you learn over time as you practice pleasure and you pump more of this into your life, you know, what turns you on? What are the things that make you feel alive? And then that way, becoming present to pleasure becomes super powerful because we can begin to shift. We can use it as a compass to kind of begin to shift our lives in that direction. And, ⁓ I you can start small,

But then, you know, I’m 10 years in and, you know, I’m like going dancing in Ibiza next month with a group of girlfriends, you know, I’m going to see a concert in Amsterdam in three months. it’s like I’m just can’t stop won’t stop because it feels so good.

DI (15:18)

Yeah.

So when you’ve got these women in the room that you’re coaching Natty and you ask them, do they have pleasure in their lives? What’s the answer? What are they saying?

NATTY (15:33)

⁓ Well, it’s a mix of answers mostly like know what is pleasure. I don’t know what you mean, you yeah

DI (15:39)

That’s what I thought it would be. Yeah. Because there would be a word that isn’t in their vocab.

NATTY (15:44)

Well, usually by the time people work with me, they followed me for a while. So they know a little bit about what I’m, what I’m saying. But if someone’s brand new to my world, there’s a little bit of education that’s happening. And, you know, oftentimes I’ll ask the question, what did you love to do when you were a kid? So, you know, maybe it’s, you know, playing in the woods, maybe it’s dancing and we look for ways to.

bring that back into the surface of their everyday lives. Right? If you love to dance when you were a kid, you know, go take up a shuttle lesson. You know, see if you can get that feeling back in your body. We’re the same person. Yeah. The things that turned us on at seven are going to turn us on at 57.

DI (16:30)

So for the woman listening who hasn’t tapped into that yet, what’s one small thing she could do to turn up the dial?

NATTY (16:40)

I love this. ⁓ One question I love for women to ask themselves regularly, and I would encourage your listeners to do this, is to take 60 seconds, take a deep breath, close your eyes, come into your body and ask yourself the question, what would feel really good right now?

It’s so simple. But when I’m feeling a little bit off or I know I need a break or I’m sitting at my desk too long and I say, you know, what would feel really good right now? ⁓ Sometimes it’s just like stretching on my yoga mat next to my desk. Sometimes it’s like hitting my favorite Spotify playlist. Sometimes it’s a hot bath or like I always have a hot cup of tea.

So starting to tune in. Your body is brilliant and she will respond. It could be as simple as go get a glass of water.

DI (17:49)

Yeah.

NATTY (17:50)

But just that one question.

DI (17:52)

Yeah, interesting. So coming up, let’s talk about redefining aging and visibility.

If you’re loving the Power of Women podcasts, be sure to jump onto our YouTube channel and hit that subscribe button to ensure you never miss an episode.

So touching on aging, what’s the biggest misconception people have about it? How long have we got?

NATTY (18:19)

Yeah, this exactly. The biggest misconception is that aging is the decline, that it’s loss, that it’s, you know, irrelevance. It’s complete bullshit. Aging is our superpower. Yes. mean, aging is my wisdom, right? It’s my sharper boundaries. It’s giving fewer fucks about what other people think. It’s

you know, finally feeling free enough to just be yourself. mean, most of us are taught to dread aging, but I mean, I woke up, you know, at 40 and realized I’d been following these rules, all these rules that hadn’t made me happy and decided to stop being smaller, younger, quiet, you know, stop.

being the smaller version of myself and what I’ve realized now almost a decade later is all the fires I’ve walked through and that every single woman I’ve ever worked with has walked through. Like if you look back in your life and you look at all of the portals of transformation, like leaving people, changing jobs, know, moving house, raising children maybe, and like the hard crunchy moments, that is wisdom.

That is deep, deep wisdom. feel like I have never been smarter than I am or wiser than I am right now.

DI (19:50)

Yeah, he’s to that.

NATTY (19:52)

Yeah, and every woman I work with is so damn wise, so I’m just like, age, bring it on.

DI (20:00)

So you’ve come from the world of advertising. How much of that world hasn’t caught up? Because if I see another ad for an aged care home for saying women in their 50s look gray and finished, I mean…

NATTY (20:17)

I don’t know if we’re ever going to break free from that narrative, to be honest. mean, I think we’re in the middle of something right now that feels really powerful. This reclamation of the feminine, of feminine power, the reclamation of aging women, the reclamation of midlife. I mean, it’s in the water right now. And that’s fricking amazing.

DI (20:45)

I mean just jump on Instagram. It’s being shouted. I mean…

NATTY (20:49)

Yeah,

it is being shouted and I think it’s going to take us. Now it’s going to take more of us. that’s, you know, that’s one of the reasons why I do this work. It’s like the ripple effect of this work. The more women that I can work with, the more people I can connect with to, you know, show them, you know, the bullshit rules that we have been living under and how and to start disrupt them.

you know, the better off we all will be. But I mean, the beauty industry, let’s face it, it’s, I mean, how many billion dollar industry is it? You know, I haven’t looked it up recently, but it’s got to be in the hundreds of billions, right? Yeah. I think the most power that I have and anyone who has children, like I’ve got two daughters who are 21 and 20. And, you know, we just have these conversations all the time.

DI (21:44)

the men around you saying as they see what you’re doing and what you’re advocating? Are they on board? Are they challenged? What are they saying?

NATTY (21:54)

The people in my life are all about it. I mean, they are, you know, my fierce advocates. ⁓ My husband is a feminist. He is, you know, really at my back. ⁓ My dad, who is a 78 year old Italian American guy, thinks this is really fucking cool. And ⁓

You know, it gets a little uncomfortable when I use the word pussy. But, you know, but he’s on board. You know, I have two brothers, you know, I know they’re proud of me. ⁓ So and to be honest, I don’t have anyone in my life who isn’t on my side. I’m done with that. Yeah. Like the people in my life are

DI (22:44)

Yeah, they don’t need.

NATTY (22:53)

My kind of people.

DI (22:54)

Yeah, brilliant. So for women listening who might not feel that power yet and still pleasures and still feel the pressure that they have to toe the line, what’s a shift around redefining how they age appropriately? Because I mean, that’s a phrase we grew up with.

NATTY (23:19)

Yeah, I guess it would start by maybe asking yourself or even journaling on this question, like, what have I gained with age? Great question. Instead of counting their wrinkles, count your courage. Like, actually look back.

It’s a great practice because we’re survivors. Yep. We’re survivors. I mean, it’s just in our DNA.

DI (23:56)

And visibility is one of these huge topics that I think as the midlife woman approaches that certain age that they struggle with. I doubt that you struggle with visibility. It’s not one of my things that I struggle with, but I’m sure you’re talking to women every day who feel like they’re shrinking from view. How do you walk into a room

NATTY (24:21)

Yeah.

DI (24:25)

and really start to show up and change that narrative both literally and in your own mind.

NATTY (24:35)

I think when we think about visibility sometimes, or we think about owning a room, ⁓ we have a picture in our heads of a very masculine way of owning a room. owning a room in the way we’ve seen people own rooms before is this kind of power over idea, know, like, ⁓ yeah, kind of in an arrogant kind of way. And

Women, think, have a very special power, is that we can own a room just by our presence. We don’t need to jockey for position. It’s just being deeply present and walking into a space and feeling like I belong here, being grounded in your body, making eye contact.

speaking slowly, not trying to prove yourself, right? Letting your authenticity shine, your quirks, your humor, your wisdom, your truth. And there are some small shifts that women can make before walking into a room, taking a really deep breath, standing up straight.

rolling your shoulders back, you know, lifting your chest a little bit. And, you know, instead of thinking to yourself, I hope they like me. One question that I ask myself is, do I even like them?

DI (26:20)

Yeah, that’s gonna say flip the narrative. And the latter opens you up. The former shrinks you down physically.

NATTY (26:29)

Yeah, it does that the latter is curiosity, right? It’s like huh and thinking about like who in that room would I like to connect with? Mm-hmm instead of thinking they’re walking into a room of 30 people Who am I curious about? Yeah, and connect with that one human being

DI (26:46)

Yeah.

When did you walk into a room and really feel that sense of presence and that sense of groundedness? How old were you?

NATTY (27:01)

When I felt presence and groundedness, hmm. I think I rea- to be honest, I ha- I felt that way my whole life probably until I got into a boardroom.

And when I got into a boardroom, I thought to myself, I’m not smart enough to be here.

And I don’t know enough. I don’t know enough about financials. I can’t add anything to this conversation. And it’s actually regretfully ended up leaving that position ⁓ because of that. I think I mean, I told my son. Yeah. It’s man, do I regret that. But I just.

I do. mean, and that was probably, you know, 12 years ago. I think I was overwhelmed. had small kids. I told myself I couldn’t ⁓ handle the time commitment, but really it was me feeling like I didn’t belong.

You were invited there for a reason.

People want you there because of who you are and what you bring to the table. And we are so conditioned to believe that our worth is tied up with how many degrees we have or ⁓ what’s on your resume. But really, our power comes from how we think outside the box, how we connect with other human beings.

And in retrospect, I’m really great at those two things. And that’s probably why I was invited into the room.

DI (28:47)

Yeah, you missed the cue. Yeah. So I’m going to, I typically do a one bold question and answer to close, but Natty, I’m going to change it up a little bit with you because I think this is kind of your jam. So if we could do a couple of rapid fire responses, I would love your thoughts on three questions.

NATTY (28:50)

I miss the cube.

Okay, okay, let’s do it.

DI (29:17)

So what one rule midlife women should break immediately?

NATTY (29:22)

Stop apologizing for wanting more.

DI (29:26)

Love it. What brings you pleasure right now?

NATTY (29:31)

Dancing in my kitchen with my husband.

DI (29:35)

And if you could finish this sentence, the most powerful thing a midlife woman can do is…

NATTY (29:43)

Trust herself so fiercely that she stops waiting for permission and just goes out to live the freaking life she wants to live.

DI (29:56)

And there you have it. Natty, fantastic and you’re absolutely right, this village of women out there promoting midlife women, there’s plenty on my side of the globe and there’s plenty on your side of the globe. And we’ve got to get out there and shout from the rooftops because

We’ve got to change that narrative of the misconception of what midlife looks like. It’s a starting point, it’s not a finishing point.

NATTY (30:27)

Mmm, it is. It’s a launch pad. It’s a launch pad.

DI (30:32)

Absolutely. And I mean, you would have seen it where you are. I mean, it’s why there are so many 50 plus year old female entrepreneurs just burgeoning because we’re sick of following the rules. We finally understand what we’ve got to offer and we’ve got the confidence, the wisdom and the lived experience to get out there and do it.

NATTY (30:55)

We do, we do. Amen.

DI (30:59)

Amen. Brilliant. Nadi, an absolute delight to have you on the Power of Women podcast. It’s taken us a couple of goes to get there, but we finally have.

NATTY (31:11)

Thank

you for your patience.

DI (31:15)

⁓ you’re welcome. And I put it to anybody listening to today’s episode of ask yourself what is bringing you pleasure. Until next time.

Connect with Di:

Find Natty Frasca at:

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thefemininerebellion/

Website https://thefemininerebellion.com/

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Navigating Aged Care: Expert Advice On Making The Key Decisions Before A Crisis Hits

by admin | Aug 4, 2025 | Aged Care, Female Leaders, Healthy Aging

Aged care is one of the most confronting—and inevitable—journeys we’ll face and knowing where to start before a crisis hits can help you prepare. How to make those important decisions before the decision is forced upon us.

In this episode of the Power Of Women Podcast, Di Gillett sits down with aged care advocates Kathy Kirby and Kate Lamont from Thrive Aged Care to unpack the complexities of aged care in Australia.

From early planning and understanding your aged care options, to supporting someone with dementia using the Teepa Snow model, this is the practical guide every Australian family needs.

This episode offers compassionate, clear and essential information to help you navigate this journey with confidence.

In this episode, we explore:

🔹 The current state of Australia’s aged care system 🔹

🔹 Aged care is complex—but with the right planning, it’s not impossible to navigate

🔹 Why early conversations are essential for planning for aging

🔹 Early conversations are the game-changer. Yet many wait until crisis hits. Power of attorney, decision-making documents—even a simple video message—can make all the difference.

🔹 Dementia care requires a different lens. Understanding brain changes can help families respond with empathy, not fear.

🔹 Dementia care insights using Teepa Snow’s communication strategies

🔹 How to identify caregiver burnout and support the carer

🔹 The financial impact of aged care reforms and what’s coming next

🔹 Tools for maintaining self-care and aging well

New episodes drop every Monday to power your week.

Connect with Di: